1
1 BEFORE THE NEW YORK STATE SENATE FINANCE
AND ASSEMBLY WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEES
2 -----------------------------------------------------
3 JOINT LEGISLATIVE HEARING
4 In the Matter of the
2025-2026 EXECUTIVE BUDGET ON
5 PUBLIC PROTECTION
6 -----------------------------------------------------
7 Hearing Room B
Legislative Office Building
8 Albany, New York
9 February 13, 2025
9:33 a.m.
10
11 PRESIDING:
12 Senator Liz Krueger
Chair, Senate Finance Committee
13
Assemblyman J. Gary Pretlow
14 Chair, Assembly Ways and Means Committee
15 PRESENT:
16 Senator Thomas F. O'Mara
Senate Finance Committee (RM)
17
Assemblyman Edward P. Ra
18 Assembly Ways and Means Committee (RM)
19 Senator Brad Hoylman-Sigal
Chair, Senate Committee on Judiciary
20
Assemblyman Charles D. Lavine
21 Chair, Assembly Committee on Judiciary
22 Senator Zellnor Myrie
Chair, Senate Committee on Codes
23
Assemblyman Jeffrey Dinowitz
24 Chair, Assembly Committee on Codes
2
1 2025-2026 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 2-13-25
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Senator Julia Salazar
Chair, Senate Committee on Crime Victims,
5 Crime and Correction
6 Assemblyman Erik M. Dilan
Chair, Assembly Committee on Correction
7
Assemblyman John T. McDonald III
8 Chair, Assembly Committee on Governmental
Operations
9
Senator Kristen Gonzalez
10 Chair, Senate Committee on Internet and
Technology
11
Assemblyman Steven Otis
12 Chair, Assembly Committee on Science and
Technology
13
Senator Shelley B. Mayer
14
Assemblyman Alex Bores
15
Assemblywoman Jo Anne Simon
16
Assemblyman Philip A. Palmesano
17
Senator Anthony H. Palumbo
18
Senator Rob Rolison
19
Assemblywoman Latrice Walker
20
Senator Daniel G. Stec
21
Assemblyman Chris Burdick
22
Assemblywoman Marcela Mitaynes
23
Senator Dean Murray
24
3
1 2025-2026 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 2-13-25
3 PRESENT: (Continued)
4 Assemblywoman Catalina Cruz
5 Assemblyman Angelo J. Morinello
6 Senator Jessica Scarcella-Spanton
7 Assemblywoman Anna R. Kelles
8 Assemblyman Demond Meeks
9 Senator Jabari Brisport
10 Assemblywoman MaryJane Shimsky
11 Assemblyman Anil Beephan, Jr.
12 Assemblywoman Mary Beth Walsh
13 Senator Siela A. Bynoe
14 Assemblywoman Karines Reyes
15 Senator Gustavo Rivera
16 Assemblywoman Jodi Giglio
17 Senator Roxanne J. Persaud
18 Assemblywoman Gabriella A. Romero
19 Senator Cordell Cleare
20
21
22
23
24
4
1 2025-2026 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 2-13-25
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Honorable Joseph Zayas
Chief Administrative Judge
6 NYS Office of Court
Administration 16 22
7
Patricia Warth
8 Director
New York State Office of
9 Indigent Legal Services
-and-
10 Robert H. Tembeckjian
Administrator and Counsel
11 New York State Commission on
Judicial Conduct 139 157
12
Joseph J. Popcun
13 Executive Deputy Commissioner
NYS Division of Criminal
14 Justice Services
-and-
15 Daniel F. Martuscello
Commissioner
16 NYS Department of Corrections
and Community Supervision
17 -and-
Steven G. James
18 Superintendent
NYS Division of State Police 205 227
19
20 Dru Rai
CIO
21 NYS Office of Information
Technology Services
22 -and-
Terence O'Leary
23 Executive Deputy Commissioner
NYS Division of Homeland Security
24 and Emergency Services 406 423
5
1 2025-2026 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 2-13-25
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Robert Ricks
Father of Robert Brooks
6 -and-
Alice Fontier
7 Project Managing Attorney,
Criminal Defense
8 The Legal Aid Society
of New York City
9 -and-
Amanda Wallwin
10 State Policy Advocate
Innocence Project 477 487
11
Rosie Wang
12 Senior Program Associate
Vera Institute of Justice
13 -and-
Taina B. Wagnac
14 Senior Manager of State and
Local Policy
15 New York Immigration Coalition
-and-
16 Luba Cortes
Civil Rights and Immigration
17 Lead Organizer
Make the Road New York 520 530
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
6
1 2025-2026 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 2-13-25
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Darcel D. Clark
Bronx County District Attorney
6 -and-
Mary Pat Donnelly
7 Rensselaer County District Attorney
-on behalf of-
8 District Attorneys Association of
the State of New York
9 -and-
Kevin Stadelmaier
10 Legislative Committee Chair
and President-Elect
11 New York Association of Criminal
Defense Lawyers
12 -and-
James M. McGhan
13 President
Chief Defender Association of
14 New York
-and-
15 Susan C. Bryant
Executive Director
16 NYS Defenders Association 545 564
17 Patrick Hendry
President
18 Police Benevolent Association
of New York City
19 -and-
Timothy M. Dymond
20 Executive Director
NYS Police Investigators
21 Association
-and-
22 Chris Summers
President
23 NYSCOPBA 590 600
24
7
1 2025-2026 Executive Budget
Public Protection
2 2-13-25
3 LIST OF SPEAKERS, Continued
4 STATEMENT QUESTIONS
5 Kristin Brown
President and CEO
6 Empire Justice Center
-and-
7 Sal F. Curran
Cochair, Legislative Steering
8 Committee
NY Legal Services Coalition
9 -and-
Joan F. Gerhardt
10 Director, Public Policy
and Advocacy
11 NYS Coalition Against
Domestic Violence (NYSCADV)
12 -and-
Theresa Hobbs
13 Executive Director
NYS Dispute Resolution
14 Association (NYSDRA)
-and-
15 Hailey Nolasco
Senior Director of
16 Government Relations
Center for Justice Innovation 634 651
17
Alyssa Bradley
18 Senior Policy Associate
Center for Employment Opportunities
19 -and-
Thomas Gant
20 Community Organizer
Center for Community
21 Alternatives 658 666
22
23
24
8
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Good morning,
2 everyone. Hi, I'm Liz Krueger, chair of the
3 Senate Finance Committee. I live in this
4 room. I'm joined by my partner Gary Pretlow,
5 Assembly -- pardon me?
6 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: We live together.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: He said we live
8 together. We'll have to explain that at home
9 later. But we do seem to, lately.
10 Gary Pretlow, chair of Ways and Means.
11 Just some rules of the road that we
12 try to do before we officially start the
13 hearing each day.
14 There's clocks. Everyone can see
15 them, whether you're on the panel or going to
16 be testifying. And there's green light,
17 yellow light, red light, to let you know
18 where you are and how much time you have
19 left.
20 We always encourage everyone
21 testifying, even if you sent us 35 pages of
22 documents and data, you only have, if you're
23 a state official, 10 minutes to present. If
24 you're everyone else in the world, you only
9
1 have three minutes to present. So you're not
2 going to read your testimony, you're going to
3 bullet-point your critical issues. That's my
4 advice to you.
5 Legislators, you want to ask lots of
6 questions. If you have three minutes to ask
7 questions and you either ask a three-minute
8 question or decide that you want to make a
9 speech -- and we're in that business, I
10 understand that -- and that you take
11 two minutes and 40 seconds to make you're
12 speech, you won't get an answer because there
13 won't be enough time. So we don't let the
14 person have additional minutes to answer
15 questions if you've used up all your time
16 making your statement or asking your
17 question.
18 So just everyone be aware what those
19 clocks are. And Gary and I are both very
20 strict taskmasters, and we will shut you down
21 and turn off your microphone. So try to stay
22 in the context of the rules.
23 All right. So there's lots of
24 committee chairs and rankers today because
10
1 there's lots of issues under the rubric of
2 public protection. So yes, it is going to be
3 a long hearing. And chairs are allowed
4 10 minutes to ask questions of the state
5 government representatives, and rankers are
6 given five minutes. Everyone else gets three
7 minutes.
8 The only people who ever get a second
9 round are the chairs, who can ask for a final
10 three minutes at the very end of the entire
11 process if it's the relevant committee for
12 them.
13 And it is a little confusing, because
14 we have so many chairs and rankers. But some
15 chairs only apply to some guests and not all
16 guests. But that will become more clear as
17 we go along.
18 Again, nongovernment witnesses only
19 get three minutes to testify, and all
20 legislators only get three minutes, it
21 doesn't matter whether you're a chair or a
22 ranker.
23 Make sure that if you are interested
24 in asking questions you let, if you're an
11
1 Assemblymember, Gary Pretlow or
2 Assemblymember Ra from the Republicans, if
3 you're a Senator, Liz Krueger or Tom O'Mara,
4 the ranker on Finance -- you have to let us
5 know you want to ask questions, because we
6 don't read your minds. So then you're half
7 an hour in and you're like, What happened,
8 you never called on me. Because you didn't
9 ask us to put you on the list.
10 So that's also just a rule of the
11 road.
12 I think that's where we're going to
13 start. And I will just read formally the
14 opening statement. You already know I'm Liz
15 Krueger, this is Gary Pretlow.
16 Today is the ninth of 14 hearings
17 conducted by the joint fiscal committees of
18 the Legislature regarding the Governor's
19 proposed budget for state fiscal year
20 '25-'26. These hearings are conducted
21 pursuant to the New York State Constitution
22 and Legislative Law.
23 Today the Senate Finance Committee and
24 Assembly Ways and Means Committee will hear
12
1 testimony concerning the Governor's proposed
2 budget for the Judiciary, State Commission on
3 Judicial Conduct, Office of Indigent Legal
4 Services, New York State Division of
5 Criminal Justice Services, New York State
6 Department of Corrections and Community
7 Supervision, New York State Division of
8 State Police, New York State Division of
9 Homeland Security and Emergency Services, and
10 New York State Office of Information
11 Technology.
12 Following each testimony there will be
13 some time for questions from the relevant
14 members of the Legislature, as I just laid
15 out to you.
16 We always start, also, by introducing
17 everyone who is here so far. And people will
18 have to come and go during the day, so we may
19 be making further announcements as they come
20 in.
21 So we have Senator Salazar,
22 Senator Mayer, Senator Myrie, Senator
23 Hoylman-Sigal, Senator Scarcella-Spanton,
24 Senator Brisport.
13
1 And to the Assembly.
2 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you, Senator.
3 We have with us today Assemblyman
4 Dinowitz, Assemblyman Lavine, Assemblyman
5 Dilan, Assemblyman Otis, Assemblyman Bores,
6 Assemblywoman Cruz, Assemblywoman Mitaynes.
7 And that's it right now.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And Senate
9 Republicans?
10 SENATOR O'MARA: Good morning --
11 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: And Assemblyman
12 McDonald, I'm sorry.
13 SENATOR O'MARA: On the Republican
14 side of the Senate we're joined by our
15 ranking member on Crime and Corrections,
16 Rob Rolison, and Senator Dean Murray. And
17 Senator Tony Palumbo, our ranking member on
18 Judiciary.
19 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Ra?
20 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Good morning. We are
21 joined by Assemblyman Morinello, who is our
22 ranking member on the Codes Committee, and
23 Assemblyman Phil Palmesano, who is playing
24 the role of ranker on Corrections today.
14
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. So our
2 first presenter today is the Honorable Chief
3 Administrative Judge Joseph Zayas, of the
4 Office of Court Administration.
5 You have 10 minutes. Good morning.
6 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
7 Good morning. Good morning, everyone.
8 Chairpersons and committee members, it
9 was very gratifying for me to have an
10 opportunity to meet with so many of you over
11 the last few days. As you know, my name is
12 Joseph Zayas. I'm the Chief Administrative
13 Judge of the New York State Unified Court
14 System.
15 It is really a pleasure to be with you
16 this morning to discuss the judiciary's
17 budget request for the 2026 state fiscal
18 year.
19 When I spoke to my wife today, she
20 said, "You know, last year when you did this,
21 the week before you came up here you were
22 stressed out." And she said, "This time you
23 seem perfectly calm." So I said, "That's
24 what happens when you do something the second
15
1 time."
2 So I do appear before you today on
3 behalf of my friend, Chief Judge Rowan
4 Wilson; the Unified Court System's dedicated
5 leadership team, all of whom are also my good
6 friends; and the over 17,000 judges and
7 nonjudicial employees who help run our courts
8 every day. Collectively, we are committed --
9 we are committed to ensuring that our
10 Judiciary has the resources it needs so that
11 all New Yorkers have access to the fair,
12 efficient, and thoughtful administration of
13 justice.
14 Chief Judge Wilson speaks eloquently
15 about reimagining our courts as vehicles for
16 solving problems, rather than merely
17 assigning blame and liability. We should, in
18 the chief's vision, "think of courts as
19 problem solvers, not solely as adjudicators
20 of which party is right." Our leadership
21 team has wholeheartedly embraced this
22 approach.
23 Like you, we want New Yorkers to count
24 on our courts to resolve their disputes
16
1 expeditiously, impartially, and with
2 compassion and empathy. But for the
3 Judiciary to properly serve this most
4 critical function, and for New Yorkers to
5 have confidence in the judicial branch, our
6 courts need to be adequately resourced. We
7 need enough judges, court attorneys,
8 court reporters, clerical staff,
9 court officers, and interpreters so that our
10 courts are operating at full capacity and
11 every case promptly receives the attention it
12 so desperately deserves.
13 We need modernized, accessible
14 facilities with the right tools and
15 technologies so that we can, for example,
16 pivot seamlessly between in-person and
17 virtual court proceedings, and facilitate
18 access to justice by making it easier to file
19 court papers and obtain court documents.
20 Last year's budget, which followed
21 more than a decade of flat funding, allowed
22 us to make meaningful progress in achieving
23 these ambitious goals. Among other things,
24 it permitted us to add much-needed judges --
17
1 and thank you to all of you for that -- and
2 to begin to address a historically low
3 nonjudicial personnel staffing level.
4 With this year's budget request, we
5 aim to continue building on this momentum.
6 Our state operating cash estimate of
7 $3 billion reflects a base increase of
8 $171.2 million, which is necessary just to
9 maintain our existing court operations,
10 including the annualization of new judgeships
11 which all of you approved last year and over
12 the past two years, and contractually
13 mandated raises and benefits for nonjudicial
14 employees.
15 We're also requesting $97 million of
16 additional funding that will, among other
17 things, expedite justice for litigants,
18 families and victims by improving
19 case-processing efficiency and reducing
20 backlogs in our busiest courts; assist
21 indigent New Yorkers by significantly
22 increasing funding for civil legal services
23 organizations and Attorney for the Child
24 providers, many of whom I know will be
18
1 testifying today, who are facing a staffing
2 crisis because of chronic underfunding;
3 facilitate expeditious settlements of
4 disputes by expanding our successful
5 alternative dispute resolution programs;
6 divert more criminal defendants into
7 treatment and substance-use programs by
8 increasing funding for our problem-solving
9 courts; and improve the administration of
10 justice by restoring our nonjudicial
11 personnel level to 17,000.
12 New York's court system is, without a
13 doubt, among the largest and busiest in the
14 country. Our judges and nonjudicial
15 personnel address and dispose of millions,
16 millions of new case filings annually.
17 Unfortunately, too many judges in too many of
18 our courts have crushing inventories,
19 hundreds upon hundreds of cases, that make
20 the timely disposition of cases extremely
21 challenging.
22 As far as criminal cases, since the
23 pandemic we have seen significantly slower
24 case-processing times in our felony-level
19
1 criminal courts, meaning that in some cases
2 victims are waiting too long for justice and
3 in others, defendants are waiting too long
4 for the resolution of serious criminal
5 allegations. In our view, this is an
6 unacceptable status quo.
7 The only way to address these backlogs
8 and ensure that cases are resolved more
9 efficiently going forward, is to have
10 adequate judicial and nonjudicial staff. At
11 the end of 2021, our nonjudicial staffing was
12 just 14,000 employees, nearly 3,000 personnel
13 fewer than the Judiciary employed in 2009.
14 In recent years we've started to rebuild our
15 depleted work force, and this year's budget
16 request would finally allow us to return to a
17 staffing level of 17,000.
18 In my written submission I've outlined
19 the types of new employees we intend to hire
20 to accomplish our goals.
21 So new court attorneys will support
22 our New York City criminal case processing
23 initiatives which we launched last year, with
24 the goal of implementing a series of targeted
20
1 case-management strategies to address the
2 most significant causes of delay, including
3 discovery delays, in felony-level criminal
4 cases. We expect that these measures will
5 reduce the amount of time that individuals
6 spend on Rikers Island, decreasing the
7 population of those jails, a goal which I
8 know is important to all of you.
9 The adequate staffing of our courts is
10 a prerequisite for the efficient and fair
11 administration of justice. But it is not
12 enough, by itself, to ensure that our courts
13 are operating smoothly and effectively. The
14 reality is that our adversarial system does
15 not work as intended if both parties are not
16 represented by counsel. Unfortunately, too
17 often this is the case, with too many
18 low-income New Yorkers forced to confront
19 legal issues affecting the most important
20 parts of their lives without representation.
21 To continue to address this
22 longstanding problem, our 2026 budget
23 requests $150 million for civil legal
24 services, reflecting a significant increase
21
1 of $45.5 million. In addition, we're
2 requesting 211.2 million to support our
3 Attorney for the Child Program.
4 Our 2026 budget will also allow us to
5 sustain and expand innovative court programs
6 that help address problems that are of deep
7 concern to so many New Yorkers. We now have
8 over 350 problem-solving courts in New York,
9 each dedicated to addressing a particular
10 kind of issue that often results in
11 involvement in the criminal justice system,
12 such as mental health and substance abuse
13 issues.
14 Diverting New Yorkers suffering from
15 mental illness off the typical criminal
16 justice system track, and into treatment, is
17 one of our court system's highest priorities.
18 Our goal is to have, throughout the state --
19 mental health courts throughout the state.
20 We continue to innovate in other ways
21 as well, modernizing courtrooms and piloting
22 a new court appearance platform and expanding
23 e-filing.
24 I would be remiss if I did not mention
22
1 that we also require the passage of our
2 program bills.
3 Let me close by saying that on so many
4 issues I believe that we are aligned with
5 you, and I appreciate the collaborative
6 partnership we have developed.
7 Thank you very much.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
9 much. That was perfect timing, Judge. Very
10 impressed.
11 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I'm
12 looking at the timer this time.
13 (Laughter.)
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right. Our
15 first questioner will be our chair of
16 Judiciary, Senator Hoylman-Sigal.
17 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you,
18 Madam Chair, and to my colleagues.
19 Welcome, Judge Zayas. First let me
20 just say -- well, you timed that perfectly.
21 Maybe that's -- one year of experience will
22 help you there. But I just want to thank you
23 and in particular the Chief Judge for his
24 historic State of the Judiciary address this
23
1 week, which I know my colleagues
2 Senator Salazar and Senator Myrie agree that
3 the focus on redemption and rehabilitation,
4 the moving comments that the Chief Judge
5 made, including both formerly and currently
6 incarcerated individuals, was absolutely
7 inspiring. So thank you for that.
8 And I want to also just touch on --
9 before I get into a question about
10 problem-solving courts -- and want to
11 specifically call out Midtown Community
12 Justice Center in my district, which I know
13 you and the Chief Judge have visited, and has
14 resumed its operations to five days a week.
15 And it really is those problem-solving
16 courts that can address so many of the
17 quality-of-life concerns that our
18 constituents contact our offices about and
19 that we witness every day on the streets in
20 our districts. So thank you for your
21 continued support there.
22 I wanted to first ask about the issue
23 which is on I think many people's minds,
24 which is ICE and the -- in 2019 we passed a
24
1 bill that I sponsored prohibiting ICE from
2 detaining participants in court proceedings
3 while at the courthouse or in transit to or
4 from the courthouse without a warrant or
5 court order. And as we know, regrettably,
6 the new federal administration -- immigrants
7 in New York City are once again under threat
8 of detention and deportation. We know that
9 New York State is home to nearly 700,000
10 undocumented immigrants. They're our
11 Neighbors, family members, colleagues.
12 In the first week of the Trump
13 administration, 100 immigrants were detained
14 and arrested by ICE. And we know that when
15 victims and witnesses are afraid to come to
16 court -- which is why we passed this bill --
17 when domestic violence victims are afraid to
18 get an order of protection, and when tenants
19 are afraid to file a complaint against their
20 landlord, our state is really less safe.
21 So my question to you, Judge Zayas,
22 is, what is OCA doing to ensure New Yorkers
23 are safe from unlawful detention in
24 courthouses? And has ICE attempted to enter
25
1 a New York State courthouse, to your
2 knowledge?
3 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
4 Great. That's a great question. Certainly
5 appreciate that we have the Protect Our Court
6 Act and that we had the -- we were prescient
7 enough to see the need for that. I
8 understand that in some of the meetings that
9 our folks have had with regional ICE
10 officials that they are aware of that act as
11 well and have -- there's bulletins and
12 advisories that they are required to follow
13 state acts along those lines.
14 So what we've been doing is we
15 immediately set up meetings and we have an
16 administrative order directly on point, we
17 have directives from our department of public
18 safety directly on point. We have protocols
19 that we just recently revised and sent around
20 to all of the folks in our courts. And we've
21 set up meetings with the ICE regional
22 directors in New York City and the suburbs of
23 New York City, and now we're setting up
24 additional meetings with the ICE regional
26
1 directors in -- you know, upstate.
2 And we met about this numerous times
3 already. And we then spread all of this
4 information not only to the judges, but all
5 the meetings with the commands in every
6 single courthouse throughout the state.
7 And we're prepared to do whatever it
8 takes to make sure that the Safe Courts Act
9 is followed.
10 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Are you aware
11 of any attempts to enter courthouse property
12 by ICE?
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
14 Yes. And we've raised the level of that
15 where it comes directly to our top leadership
16 team. If there's anything, we want to know
17 about it. And we haven't had any indication
18 that the ICE offices have done anything other
19 than follow our procedure.
20 So they need a warrant now, so the
21 protocols we put in place is they cannot
22 expect to make any arrest without a judicial
23 warrant. And as soon as these folks come
24 into our courthouse, they are directed to a
27
1 designated judge who reviews the purported
2 warrant or detainer to determine whether it
3 is a judicial warrant.
4 If it's a judicial warrant, we follow
5 and -- you still can't make an arrest in a
6 courtroom under any circumstances. But the
7 next best thing, when there's a judicial
8 warrant, that's in our law that they are
9 allowed to do that, so.
10 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Where do they
11 effectuate the arrests, then, if it's not in
12 a courtroom?
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
14 Sometimes outside of the courthouse or
15 sometimes in a hallway of the courthouse.
16 Which they're allowed to do if there's a
17 judicial warrant.
18 If it's just a detainer, they're not
19 allowed to make any arrests in any of our
20 courthouses. It's a civil arrest, so --
21 unlike a bench warrant, for example.
22 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: And do you
23 have any statistics you could share with us
24 in terms of how many of these arrests have
28
1 occurred on courthouse grounds?
2 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
3 Sure. I'm sure. Not in front of me right
4 now, but I'm sure and we'll send them to you.
5 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Okay. Is it
6 several? Is it dozens? Is it --
7 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
8 mean, sometimes I hear things from defense
9 attorneys that this happened, that happened.
10 I's not an extraordinary amount of -- it's
11 not a deluge of folks coming in, but it's
12 sort of I would say moderate. But it's
13 happening.
14 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: It is
15 happening.
16 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
17 Yup.
18 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: And other than
19 meeting with the ICE administrators, any
20 other -- do you have any recommendations for
21 us to make sure that witnesses are not
22 fearful of coming forward, particularly those
23 who are undocumented?
24 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
29
1 mean, I think prosecutor offices also have
2 their -- I mean, they're the ones who are
3 meeting with the witnesses -- should have
4 their own protocols in place explaining to
5 them that this can happen.
6 And the other agencies that deal with
7 this should be also be meeting with ICE to
8 help folks understand that to the extent that
9 ICE wants to come into our courthouses to
10 make civil arrests, it will deter victims,
11 witnesses, et cetera, from coming in, and
12 it's a bad idea.
13 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Well, thank
14 you. That's good fodder for some questions
15 later this afternoon.
16 I just wanted to touch on an issue of
17 separation of powers that seems to have
18 become pretty perilously flimsy in recent
19 days. We know that courts have issued orders
20 to freeze some of the Trump administration's
21 most radical actions, but there's evidence in
22 different states that these orders are being
23 ignored. The vice president himself declared
24 that "Judges aren't allowed to control the
30
1 Executive's legitimate power."
2 On Monday Judge John McConnell in
3 Rhode Island accused the administration of
4 failing to unfreeze billions of dollars in
5 federal grants, in clear violation of his
6 judicial order.
7 We know that the judiciary has been
8 termed the least dangerous branch of
9 government because it really -- solely its
10 power rests on the legitimacy of the public
11 and respect from other institutions. And
12 when judicial orders are disregarded by the
13 Executive, the judiciary truly has little
14 recourse.
15 I was wondering from your perspective,
16 Judge Zayas, how strong is the rule of law in
17 our state? And what can we do to preserve
18 faith and confidence in the work of our
19 judges?
20 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
21 think the rule of law is strong. And we
22 will -- if any federal agent attempts to
23 disobey our rule of law, we will take -- I
24 think we have a strong Attorney General,
31
1 obviously.
2 And I think almost everything that --
3 every executive order that attempted to do
4 one thing or another has been by now either
5 stayed or paused. There was the stretch to
6 pause discretionary funds that went to the
7 states. That too was paused.
8 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you very
9 much.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 Assembly.
12 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
13 Assemblymember Lavine for 10 minutes.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Good morning,
15 Your Honor. It's good to see you. I also
16 want to say, as someone who literally, or
17 close to literally, grew up in our state and
18 federal courts, how proud I am of the work
19 that you and our Chief Justice and our other
20 judges are doing. So many, many thanks for
21 that, my friend.
22 So last year's budget included a
23 provision relating to protection of judges
24 and their families. It was something that
32
1 I'm very proud myself to have worked on, and
2 very pleased that the Governor and the
3 Assembly and the Senate have adopted that as
4 our law.
5 So Can you tell me, has this provision
6 provided some peace of mind and benefited our
7 judges?
8 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
9 Yes. Thank you. First of all, thank you and
10 your colleagues for passing that legislation.
11 It was something that the judges across our
12 state, 1400 judges across our state, really
13 appreciate. And I think it has been
14 effective in terms of scrubbing the internet
15 of judges' addresses, et cetera.
16 We -- in our program bills we're
17 requesting a few very minor amendments to it
18 that I'm sure we can reach out to your office
19 to share with you. We might have done that
20 already.
21 But it's been very effective. We
22 actually used the opportunity to contract
23 with a group called DeleteMe, and so instead
24 of the judges having to -- and the judges
33
1 will do this. They reach out to the
2 appropriate parties, pursuant to the statute.
3 But we invested some money into
4 contracting with DeleteMe, where these folks
5 are constantly monitoring judges in social
6 media and scrubbing that. And they're doing
7 it every month, and they're sending the
8 judges their reports. And the judges have to
9 sign up for this.
10 And we thought it was important -- an
11 important sort of add-on from our own budget
12 to get that done for our judges. As you
13 probably have heard, it's difficult to gauge,
14 but judicial morale over the last 20 months
15 has skyrocketed. And we're very happy about
16 that, because we think the happier our judges
17 are, the less gripes they have with things
18 that are going on, the more they can focus on
19 the work of delivering justice and doing good
20 work.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: So it's a sad
22 indictment of the world in which we live when
23 judges have to be fearful. And in an
24 atmosphere in which too many electeds,
34
1 elected officials have taken it upon
2 themselves to unfairly criticize our judges
3 and judicial rulings, I'm pleased that this
4 is not part of our law.
5 Do we have any sense of how many
6 judges have pursued these protections?
7 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
8 think a high number. I mean, the DeleteMe,
9 I think I saw a stat that said 80-something
10 percent of our judges have opted into
11 DeleteMe. And other judges are also doing
12 either one of those programs or both. Most
13 judges are doing both of those programs.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Very good.
15 So now I have a couple of questions
16 about ADR or alternative dispute resolutions
17 and court improvement programs. So the
18 judiciary is requesting $14.3 million, an
19 increase of $3.8 million over last year's
20 budget, with 3 million earmarked for expanded
21 ADR services statewide.
22 Can you describe which specific areas
23 or regions of the state may or will be
24 prioritized for expansion of ADR services?
35
1 And how will needs be assessed in those --
2 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
3 Sure. So we hired a director of ADR at the
4 Unified Court System. And we have ADR
5 coordinators in every judicial district and
6 every part of the state. And so it's
7 something that we expect to benefit all of
8 the courts throughout the state.
9 And that was -- so we hired ADR
10 coordinators in each judicial district, and
11 that was the reason for the budget. And they
12 are coordinating with each other. The
13 director is, you know, helping them to do
14 that. And it's been a very effective program
15 that we're trying to promote even more than
16 it's been spreading.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: And Judge Zayas,
18 do you expect that ADR expansion is going to
19 help us to address and alleviate cases? Too
20 many cases in our courts pending right now.
21 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
22 Yes, absolutely. So there are a host of
23 things we're trying to do. We're not just
24 trying to, you know, pursue one avenue that
36
1 we know will reduce the backlog. It's ADR.
2 It's the program that we have in New York
3 City. It's mediation. And we're trying to
4 use all of these to get that job done.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: And will this
6 help with respect to Family Court backlogs as
7 well?
8 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
9 Yes. Yes.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thank you. I
11 have no further questions. I rest my case.
12 (Laughter.)
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
14 Thank you, sir.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
16 much for the legal debate.
17 We've been joined by Senator Bynoe.
18 And our next questioner is
19 Senator Myrie.
20 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you,
21 Madam Chair.
22 Judge, good to see you. I echo the
23 sentiments of my colleagues on the welcome
24 and refreshing collaboration with your
37
1 administration. And thanks to Chief Judge
2 Wilson again for his State of the Judiciary.
3 Very, very powerful.
4 I want to focus my questioning around
5 discovery. And I know we're going to be
6 talking about this with a number of
7 stakeholders throughout the day. And we have
8 had some previous conversations around this
9 as well. And so I'm hoping to start with, if
10 you could, as best you can, describe why
11 there might be a discrepancy in discovery
12 compliance in the city, in New York City, as
13 opposed to outside of the city.
14 We see those numbers as OCA has
15 provided to be starkly different, although
16 the law applies the same way throughout the
17 state. So I'm wondering if you have thoughts
18 on why that discrepancy exists.
19 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
20 That's a really good question. The court
21 system obviously is over-the-top supportive
22 of discovery reform that continues to
23 meaningfully, meaningfully incentivize the
24 early and full production of discovery by the
38
1 prosecution, while at the same time
2 developing a procedure that ensures
3 compliance -- that the compliance challenges
4 to whatever discovery they received are
5 raised within a reasonable amount of time.
6 I really can't tell you why it's been
7 more difficult in New York City. Some people
8 have speculated that it's the New York City
9 Police Department having to deal with the
10 particular DAs in New York City, and maybe
11 that there's a different system outside of
12 New York City. But there's definitely been a
13 difference in terms of compliance.
14 And there's -- you know, as you know,
15 there's some issues raised about why cases
16 are being dismissed for -- on speedy trial
17 grounds, that there's been this unmistakable
18 increase in New York City of cases getting
19 dismissed on speed trial grounds as opposed
20 to -- so if you compare the 2019 numbers,
21 pre-COVID, pre-discovery reform, and you
22 compare them to what happened after that, in
23 misdemeanor cases and in felony --
24 non-indicted felony cases, so before the
39
1 indictment, there has been a precipitous
2 increase in the number of speedy trial
3 dismissals.
4 Now, there's no such thing as
5 dismissing it because of the failure to file
6 discovery. But the numbers alone raise a
7 very strong inference that they were at least
8 in part -- the failure to comply with the
9 discovery rules were at least in part the
10 reason for the dismissal.
11 We do not see that trend happening in
12 indicted felonies. So our more serious cases
13 are not getting -- it's more negligible in
14 terms of the difference.
15 I hope I answered your question. I
16 know you asked me about upstate and
17 downstate, and I'd like to get back to you on
18 that because I haven't been so familiar
19 with -- we haven't heard a lot from
20 difficulty upstate.
21 But I do think that -- look, the
22 discovery statute is extraordinarily daunting
23 because of how many categories of documents
24 that have to be turned over and the
40
1 voluminous nature of it. You know, a big
2 situation happening in upstate or New York
3 where police officers are showing up with
4 body cams and now they have to get all of
5 these body cams and, you know, hundreds and
6 hundreds of documents for discovery. If
7 there's an injury, medical records,
8 thousands, sometimes, pages of medical
9 records. It's not an easy thing to do.
10 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you. The answer
11 was helpful, and you began to answer what my
12 next question was going to be.
13 You know, we can talk about discovery
14 in this context and, you know, between
15 lawyers and judges and prosecutors and the
16 defense bar. I think sometimes the public
17 does not have a real understanding of what
18 this means, what it is. And so I was going
19 to ask if you could, a little further than
20 what you just did -- just for the public's
21 understanding on what the requirement is on
22 both the prosecutor, the court, and the
23 defense bar. And why, according to the
24 report that OCA issued last year about
41
1 discovery compliance and the time
2 consumption, why there would be an increase
3 in compliance time, in time consumption,
4 because of what we did in 2019.
5 And, you know, I want to be clear --
6 and I think you have communicated this as
7 well -- I and my colleagues instituted this
8 reform because of injustices in the system,
9 that there were defendants that were being
10 bombarded with evidence at the last minute
11 and not able to make an informed decision
12 about their own liberty.
13 That remains true today, that
14 principle remains true today. And what we
15 need to get to the bottom of is whether or
16 not there are things that have to be changed
17 in order to ensure that that principle is
18 upheld, but that the wheels of justice
19 continue to turn smoothly.
20 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
21 Right. So, I mean, from the -- aside from
22 our full-throated support of the discovery
23 reform in 2019-2020, I think there was
24 universal support in the Unified Court System
42
1 that that needed to happen. I know that
2 needed to happen, not only as a judge but as
3 a practitioner.
4 And when we talk about delay of these
5 cases, the old discovery statute was
6 responsible for causing all sorts of delays
7 because something wouldn't get turned over,
8 and then the judge's way of mitigating the
9 late disclosure, the damage that was being
10 caused by at the last minute giving it over
11 to defense counsel, was always: Well, I'm
12 going to give you another month. On an old
13 case in Rikers Island already.
14 So a case that's on for trial,
15 something that's closed late, the remedy is
16 always going to be: Fine, I'll give you
17 another two months to digest this
18 information, read these 2,000 pages, you
19 know, hire a DNA expert.
20 So that's the problem that we were
21 trying to fix with discovery. And then the
22 discovery statute itself is, as I said, very
23 daunting. It requires all sorts of documents
24 from -- sometimes from a variety of police
43
1 agencies. One of the differences between
2 New York City and upstate is New York City,
3 the five counties, the 8-point-whatever
4 million residents of the county, have only
5 one police department to deal with. Whereas
6 some of the upstate counties are dealing with
7 multiple police offices. And so -- and so
8 that is one of the -- that is a serious
9 problem.
10 And once discovery is turned over to
11 the defense, the defense now has a
12 constitutional obligation to review
13 everything. So if you give a defense
14 attorney 30 body cams of officers, somebody
15 in that office -- I mean, you're not giving
16 discovery just to say I gave it to them. Now
17 the defense has this incredible
18 responsibility of looking at it and reading
19 and looking through all of those. And so
20 there, that adds again to the delay.
21 And what we think is important is for
22 the prosecutors to give over this delay as
23 soon as they can and to present it in a way
24 that categorizes the discovery that's being,
44
1 you know, being given to the defense. So
2 that when the defense opens that website,
3 that -- that -- I forgot the word of that,
4 but you know what I'm talking about. When
5 they go into the link, we want -- it's
6 important that the discovery that's being
7 turned over is categorized and not just, you
8 know, miscellaneous this, miscellaneous that.
9 Because it will help the defense bar to
10 speedily work through and look at all of
11 those documents and then be able to quickly,
12 we hope -- we think there needs to be a way
13 for the defense bar to quickly, if they want
14 to challenge something, to quickly bring it
15 to the attention of the judge and file a
16 motion to strike the certificate.
17 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you, Judge.
18 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
19 Walsh, substituting for -- {inaudible}.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: Thank you very
21 much.
22 Good morning, Judge Zayas.
23 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
24 Good morning.
45
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: I think the last
2 time we met was up in Lake George -- yes,
3 last summer.
4 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
5 Good to see you again.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: I do have a
7 couple of questions for you.
8 The first has to do with ERPOs,
9 extreme risk protection orders. So currently
10 ERPOs are only issued by a New York State
11 Supreme Court judge, even though county court
12 judges are generally the judges who review
13 and issue pistol permits. In 2024, just in
14 Saratoga County, where I primarily represent,
15 there are around 171 ERPOs that were issued
16 just in that county alone.
17 The Network Operations Center, who was
18 called by law enforcement after hours, is
19 hiring more staff. State Police and the
20 Attorney General are also adding staff. What
21 is OCA doing about the extra duties, the
22 nighttime calls for judges?
23 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
24 we are trying to spread out those
46
1 responsibilities. We often make County Court
2 judges acting Supreme Court judges so that
3 they too can handle those. And it's a,
4 again, daunting process for -- especially
5 given the 24-hour rule.
6 But there are also side agreements
7 with the judge who might be on duty to handle
8 that, and personal phone calls are given to
9 the police departments in those places where
10 the officer, unless it's an absolute
11 emergency, would wait until, you know,
12 9 o'clock, 7 o'clock, as opposed to calling
13 judges at night.
14 And so I think that what many of the
15 AJs have been doing upstate is expanding the
16 number of judges who would be able to be
17 handle those. I don't -- there's nothing --
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: To make a
19 County Court judge, in other words, an acting
20 Supreme for the purposes of the ERPOs?
21 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
22 That's right. Right. And many County Court
23 judges do that, so -- but it's still done
24 in -- it's done in civil, I think, upstate.
47
1 Somehow in lower -- in the city, the
2 Criminal Term Supreme handles those ERPOs.
3 But conceitedly, we don't have a lot
4 of them.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: Yeah, that's
6 right. And that kind of leads me into my
7 next question.
8 So I would ask that you consider
9 supporting an investment in another
10 County Court judge for Saratoga County. As
11 you know, Saratoga County has the
12 fastest-growing population out of 53 upstate
13 New York counties over the past decade, and
14 all indications are that we're going to
15 continue to grow for the foreseeable future.
16 In the 11 counties comprising the
17 Fourth JD, Saratoga County has 26 percent of
18 the entire district's population, but only
19 one of the 16 County court judges assigned in
20 the Fourth JD. This includes four
21 significantly smaller counties in the
22 district that have at least two County Court
23 judges assigned. And I understand that some
24 of these are tri-hat judges and do, you know,
48
1 everything -- Family Court, Surrogate's
2 Court, County Court work.
3 Saratoga County is close in population
4 to Dutchess and Oneida counties, for example,
5 which both have two. The Saratoga County
6 administrator has written me for the past
7 two years asking for this. And I do believe
8 that the numbers justify it. I've been told
9 by leadership that OCA would need to support
10 this to make it happen, which is why I'm
11 asking you today.
12 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
13 I think you should ask Judge -- AJ Singh.
14 He's the administrative judge up there.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: We have.
16 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: --
17 To handle all of those ERPOs. He's very
18 agreeable, you know.
19 (Laughter.)
20 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: No,
21 I'm just kidding. But you should -- I'll
22 have a -- I'll promise you this. I will have
23 a conversation with the administrative judge
24 in the Fourth JD about this issue.
49
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: Thank you.
2 Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
3 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
4 You're welcome.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: I yield my time.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 So just for clarification, the
8 committees that overlap the Judiciary are
9 Codes and Judiciary. So the chairs and
10 rankers are entitled to the extra time from
11 those committees for the judge.
12 In the Senate, the ranker for both
13 Codes and Judiciary is Senator Palumbo. So
14 he's not getting 10 minutes per se, he's
15 getting two five-minutes that we will put on
16 the clock as 10 minutes.
17 (Laughter.)
18 SENATOR PALUMBO: I'll be sure and
19 pause between the two rounds of questioning.
20 Thank you, Madam Chair.
21 Thank you. And it's good to see you,
22 Judge Zayas. Good to see you again.
23 And I just want to say -- and I know I
24 mentioned this the other day when we met --
50
1 that I just think you're doing a fantastic
2 job. There's a lot of leeway within the
3 budget for the Administrative Judge to
4 allocate funds to where there's areas of
5 need, and I think the trains are running on
6 time thanks to you. So you're really doing
7 great work dealing with even the COVID
8 backlog and everything that you do. So thank
9 you.
10 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
11 Yeah, appreciate it.
12 SENATOR PALUMBO: My pleasure.
13 Now, there were a few comments from
14 some of my colleagues as well about the State
15 of the Judiciary and comments from the Chief
16 regarding maybe a refined Second Look Act.
17 And regarding just the overall motion
18 practice that would result, I don't know if
19 you've tried to speculate this. I don't want
20 to get too far in the weeds. But generally
21 speaking, if all of those inmates now every
22 three years would be mandated an opportunity
23 to file essentially a 440 motion. Although
24 that vehicle already does exist, this would
51
1 expand it.
2 Do you have any comments on what you
3 think the possible -- you know, the effect
4 that would have with regard to motion
5 practice in our trial courts?
6 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
7 Yeah, I do think that our motions like that,
8 that our current judges in the -- who sit in
9 the Criminal Superior Court would not have a
10 problem handling them. There's been the
11 Survivor Act, which was a little similar
12 motion practice, the 440, and we -- they get
13 distributed among all of the judges. And I
14 do not think that we would have any trouble
15 handling them.
16 There is at least the current version
17 of the bill, if I'm remembering it right --
18 and maybe Senator Salazar could correct me --
19 that there's a 10-year waiting period. So
20 someone has to serve 10 years before they are
21 able to make their initial application.
22 And so these are typically things that
23 are done in chambers. If a hearing is
24 ordered, then that will take up some
52
1 additional time. And -- but I do think it's
2 not going to overwhelm our courts in any way.
3 SENATOR PALUMBO: Very good. And do
4 you think -- as far as refining it, do you
5 have any comments in that regard? The
6 current version that I see presumes
7 release -- although having been involved in
8 the practice of law for many years now, those
9 mitigating factors are obviously part of --
10 90-some-odd, probably 95 percent or higher
11 amount of cases are pled because there's an
12 agreement between the parties, and they weigh
13 aggravating and mitigating factors.
14 So you're really dealing with very
15 serious crimes if they're serving more than
16 10 years in the aggregate.
17 So do you -- would you have any
18 ability to comment with regard to any ways
19 that we could tweak the Second Look Act and
20 maybe even have -- because we already parole
21 as well, so there are already bites at the
22 apple regarding release.
23 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
24 Right. Right.
53
1 SENATOR PALUMBO: So any comments --
2 because obviously the Parole Board gets
3 comments from the victims in a
4 victim-sensitive case. This looks like the
5 victim is completely ignored. So do you
6 think that would be something to consider, or
7 any other comments on how that could be
8 refined as suggested by Judge Wilson?
9 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
10 Yeah, I mean, I don't think it needs to be
11 limited to only people who have been found
12 guilty at the trial. I think someone who's
13 taken a plea and -- to a lot of time might
14 even be in a better position because he or
15 she has already taken responsibility on
16 day one when he or she took the plea.
17 And so with respect to the other part
18 of the question, I do think that everything
19 is on the table. So once someone sets --
20 once someone begins to serve their prison
21 time, there's nothing I don't think should be
22 wrong with that person's full record being --
23 you know, prison record should be before the
24 judge who's making these applications.
54
1 You know, this is not the first time
2 we've done this. I think when Governor
3 Pataki was the governor and I think that the
4 other side of the aisle had the majority,
5 we -- you adopted the effort to reduce the
6 Rockefeller -- the effects of the Rockefeller
7 Drug Laws, and we sent all of those cases
8 back to the trial courts.
9 So we do have some experience in
10 having dealt with this, and that -- I mean, I
11 was obviously really impressed that this was
12 done by folks from the other side of the
13 aisle. This is I don't think a conservative
14 or progressive or liberal issue. This is
15 something, for example, that was done,
16 Assemblymember Palumbo, by the federal
17 government. So we had President Trump
18 advocating for this, and a Republican
19 legislature actually enacted a law.
20 Now, I don't think there are -- I
21 don't know the extent of the similarities
22 between the Salazar and Walker bill. But
23 this is being done in our federal courts, and
24 during a Republican administration.
55
1 So I hope that this -- I mean, to me
2 it's a very important piece of legislation,
3 and I hope that it doesn't get bogged down
4 in, you know, discussions about, you know,
5 folks being soft on crime or -- because
6 there's no better way to see whether or not
7 someone would recidivate than to see what
8 their life has been like while they were in
9 prison.
10 It really tells a judge -- and there's
11 no way for a judge to actually know that when
12 the judge is sentencing a defendant, because
13 you need it to happen first. And obviously
14 prison is not an easy place to serve time.
15 And if there are people who, during their
16 prison term, are doing extraordinary things
17 and graduating from college -- and we heard
18 someone, someone said, Senator Myrie talked
19 about the folks who testified at the State of
20 the Judiciary, and this person was convicted
21 of a murder, but he said he never had a
22 single discipline in his many, many years of
23 being -- he was sentenced at the age of 17,
24 you know.
56
1 SENATOR PALUMBO: And that's basically
2 the purpose of incarceration, right, is
3 rehabilitation. So I think that we all feel
4 that in our hearts, that that's the intended
5 act, that you pay your debt to society and
6 hopefully you come out a different person.
7 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
8 Yeah.
9 SENATOR PALUMBO: I totally get that,
10 and I'm sorry to cut you off, but I'm running
11 low on time and I just want to talk about
12 guardianship reform.
13 My office -- I actually have a bill
14 that would just create presumption of
15 visitation, essentially. We see a lot of
16 these Article 81 issues where you have
17 people -- and there are some famous people
18 who have been dealing with this -- Wendy
19 Williams. And remember the Free Britney
20 regarding her conservatorship?
21 It's almost counterintuitive, because
22 these folks and the lawyers make money off of
23 the estate of the incapacitated person. And
24 it's a long and convoluted motion practice
57
1 where the lawyer gets paid to basically
2 exclude family members, even family members
3 who have not done anything untoward, like
4 financial, physical, mental abuse of any
5 kind, they just want to see their loved one.
6 Casey Kasem didn't see his kids for
7 the last two years of his life because his
8 new wife didn't like them. And that's really
9 insane. And I know the Attorney General
10 started an investigation.
11 Actually, I have a bill -- and you
12 could maybe even comment on that, if you'd
13 like, too so I can get the question out as to
14 any proposals to fix it. This would
15 simply -- it would allow an order to show
16 cause hearing within 10 days, presumption of
17 visitation. Just to visit your loved one at
18 that time in their life when they're
19 obviously struggling. Many are at the end of
20 life.
21 And I have someone from Long Island
22 who -- Christine Montanti, she had this with
23 her mother -- just trying to see her mom, she
24 spent almost three-quarters of a million
58
1 dollars, her entire savings, just to see her
2 mom, and did nothing untoward.
3 So do you have any comments on that,
4 Your Honor?
5 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
6 Yeah, I mean, those are the types of cases
7 that pull on our heartstrings. I cannot say
8 that I am that familiar with that bill, but I
9 would be happy to have my team reach out to
10 you and give you our thoughts. I'm just not
11 that familiar with -- I can't keep up with
12 all of the bills that are coming out --
13 SENATOR PALUMBO: That's great.
14 That's okay.
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: --
16 as hard as I try.
17 SENATOR PALUMBO: I see Brielle's pen
18 wiggling, so she's probably writing it down.
19 Great. Thank you, Your Honor. And
20 thanks again for the work that you do for us
21 in the state.
22 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
23 Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
59
1 Before I go on, we've been joined by
2 Assemblywoman Kelles, Assemblyman Meeks,
3 Assemblywoman Shimsky, Assemblywoman Simon,
4 and Assemblywoman Walker.
5 And I'm calling on
6 Assemblyman Dinowitz for 10 minutes.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Good morning,
8 Judge, and thank you. This new
9 administration, I think there's been a lot of
10 refreshing changes and we certainly
11 appreciate a lot of the work that's been
12 done.
13 So I wanted to talk about discovery.
14 The Governor has in her Executive Budget
15 several proposed changes. I'm not sure why
16 it's in the budget -- it's not budget stuff,
17 but it's in the budget. And we read a lot
18 about the impact of the reforms that were
19 passed six years ago. I stand by what we did
20 with respect to discovery. But I'm trying to
21 really understand what has been happening.
22 And, you know, you talk to the DAs,
23 you talk to those who represent defendants,
24 and you get totally different stories. It's
60
1 like if you watch the story on TV, MSNBC,
2 Fox, it's diametrically opposed. So you
3 don't really know all the information. So I
4 want you to be like CNN and try to get me
5 information.
6 So here's my concern. There's no
7 question there are people whose cases have
8 been dismissed because of violations of the
9 new law -- well, it's not so new anymore --
10 whether they are modern technical violations
11 or serious violations.
12 And I'm just trying to figure out how
13 many cases, both serious felony cases and
14 even misdemeanor cases, you know, how many
15 more cases are being dismissed? And maybe
16 just as importantly, how many of the people
17 whose cases are being dismissed are then
18 being arrested for committing another crime,
19 a crime that they may not have been able to
20 commit or alleged to have committed, but for
21 the fact that they were released because
22 their other case was dismissed?
23 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
24 there's a lot in there. Let me try to unpack
61
1 some of that. There are not a lot of serious
2 felony indicted cases where cases are
3 dismissed for the failure to file compliance
4 with discovery.
5 Those cases that -- that is prevalent
6 in the less serious area, the felonies that
7 the district attorney's office, for one
8 reason or another, has been unable to indict.
9 Some people might say they were unable to
10 indict them because there are weaknesses in
11 the case, et cetera. And misdemeanors.
12 The question of whether or not a
13 document that the prosecutor failed to turn
14 over timely is a technically inconsequential
15 document and should warrant dismissal really
16 comes under the -- what is called the Bay.
17 You know, the Court of Appeals has weighed in
18 on this issue and they said that the --
19 there's two factors that have to be
20 considered on this question of speedy trial
21 dismissal.
22 And that is did the prosecutor
23 exercise due diligence to find that document,
24 and did the prosecutor act in good faith. So
62
1 those -- that's the current law.
2 And so if there is a document out
3 there that the prosecutor failed to disclose,
4 the defense would have to show that the
5 prosecutor did nothing to go after that
6 document, to find that document, to
7 investigate to get that document -- and that
8 the prosecutor did not exercise good faith.
9 So that's -- those are the findings a
10 judge has to make before they charge the
11 prosecution with the responsibility for the
12 delay that was created by that. If it's --
13 you mentioned the word "inconsequential."
14 That has not -- except to the extent that it
15 might inform the prosecutor's due diligence
16 and good faith, it has not become a factor
17 that the Court of Appeals set forth in its
18 decision on this matter.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay --
20 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
21 hope I didn't use too many legal -- legalese
22 in explaining that, but I'm happy to talk
23 further with you --
24 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Don't worry, I
63
1 take 12 hours of those exciting mandatory
2 continuing legal education classes every
3 year, so I can probably understand some of
4 it.
5 Okay. I mean, I would love to -- I
6 like to look at numbers and data. You know,
7 whether or not we need to make some changes
8 in discovery, I mean, that remains to be
9 seen. But I certainly think whatever we do
10 should not be based on, you know, tabloid
11 headlines. It should be based on facts and
12 figures.
13 But I want to switch gears and -- go
14 on.
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
16 Just a follow-up. Look, we are talking to
17 all sides of this. So we have folks talking
18 to the Governor's people, I believe we have
19 folks talking to the DAs' folks and the
20 defense folks.
21 And we feel like we can be helpful in
22 coming up with some type of compromise that
23 might address all of the sometimes differing
24 opinions. But it may be that findings aren't
64
1 disagreeing about everything that they think
2 they're disagreeing about.
3 And so I hope that we would continue
4 to be part of that process of -- to the
5 extent that there's a will and a way to
6 change the new discovery statute, I think
7 that the folks from my team that are involved
8 in this I think can be very helpful. And we
9 want to be. And we have been. And we are
10 the ones in the courthouses dealing with this
11 every day, so we will tell you our honest
12 opinions about -- and be transparent about
13 what we think should be done.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay, thank
15 you. I'm running low. I just want to switch
16 gears.
17 So in the Bronx our facilities are
18 substandard. You know, the courthouse, as we
19 call it, 851 Grand Concourse, is -- the
20 building's -- I guess it's about a hundred
21 years old and there are tremendous needs
22 there.
23 The Hall of Justice, the Criminal
24 Court building, is a relatively new building
65
1 with apparently serious construction defects.
2 I hoped that's been rectified. The Family
3 Court building on the Grand Concourse, also a
4 relatively new building -- I mean, it was
5 amazing when it was built, but the Bronx has
6 approximately the same number of Housing
7 Court cases as Brooklyn, and Brooklyn is
8 almost twice the population of Bronx. And so
9 there are tremendous needs. You know,
10 hearings being held in the hallways there and
11 just all kinds of really bad things.
12 So my -- I'm not even going to ask a
13 question, I'm just going to say that I think
14 that there are significant needs to either
15 build more or expand or rehabilitate. But
16 there are tremendous needs in the court
17 facilities in the Bronx -- and I'm sure in
18 other places too, but I know the Bronx. And
19 I hope that both in the short term and the
20 long term that the Judiciary will start --
21 can focus on those needs.
22 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
23 Yeah, and I appreciate that. I don't
24 disagree with anything you've said. The
66
1 Bronx did get a brand-new, very expensive
2 Hall of Justice building that has had
3 problems.
4 One of the things I've been concerned
5 about is that every county in New York City
6 has gotten a -- Staten Island is in the
7 process of building a brand-new Family Court,
8 Queens got a brand-new Family Court, Brooklyn
9 got a brand-new Family Court, and Manhattan
10 has -- you know, not as new, but they got a
11 new Family Court a while ago.
12 And it's time, I think, for the Bronx
13 to get a new Family Court. The problem is we
14 don't control the buildings that -- they're
15 not our buildings, they are the city's
16 buildings.
17 So to the extent that, Chair, you and
18 other Bronxites -- and I know that there are
19 many that have talked to me about this --
20 can -- because I think what needs to happen
21 in the Bronx is there needs to be a new
22 Family Court. And a Family Court and maybe a
23 Housing Court. And I understand there's a
24 new school right behind, a new Catholic
67
1 school that's going under. And that's a big
2 space. And I talked to the borough president
3 about this. I would love to see that happen,
4 because Bronx deserves that.
5 And you should know, however, and I
6 know Chair Lavine and Chair Hoylman-Sigal, we
7 have this Facilities Review Board which
8 basically is designed to enforce the statute
9 which requires these municipalities to do
10 their job and fix their building. And you
11 can talk to -- well, call me or us off the
12 record later.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: (Nodding.)
14 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
15 Thank you.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
17 much.
18 Next up is Senator Salazar.
19 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you,
20 Judge Zayas, good to see you.
21 A quick follow-up question on
22 questions that were asked by
23 Senator Hoylman-Sigal. If no arrests are
24 permitted in the courtroom. But let's say
68
1 ICE were to show up and they have a valid
2 warrant and it's assessed by an OCA judge to
3 be a valid warrant, what then happens? Where
4 is the arrest made?
5 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
6 the act that this body enacted allows, and
7 our protocols allow, if there's a
8 determination made that the warrant is from a
9 judge to arrest the -- I don't want to call
10 them a defendant because it's a civil arrest,
11 they can arrest that person in a portion of
12 the courthouse. That's the law.
13 But ICE, Homeland Security, has
14 assured us that they will do nothing --
15 there's even a bulletin that they have said
16 in that bulletin, in writing and orally, that
17 they will do nothing that violates -- they
18 will make every effort to abide by our
19 Protect Our Courts Act.
20 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
21 To pivot to discussing second-look
22 legislation, which Senator Palumbo brought
23 up, other states have passed sentencing
24 reforms in recent years, including
69
1 second-look legislation. You wrote in the
2 New York Law Journal, published last month,
3 in support of the idea of second-look
4 legislation. Judge Wilson, not only at the
5 State of the Judiciary earlier this week, but
6 previously has publicly supported second-look
7 legislation, as has the New York State
8 Justice Task Force that Judge Wilson -- under
9 his leadership.
10 Given this support from within the
11 Judiciary, what barriers do you see to making
12 sentencing reform such as the Second Look Act
13 a reality in New York?
14 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
15 hope that the extraordinary State of the
16 Judiciary that happened this week, and the
17 specter of having those young -- not so
18 young, but young when they were convicted --
19 testify the way they did alone would persuade
20 folks who watch it that it's worthy of
21 passage.
22 In terms of some of the operational
23 issues that still need to get resolved, there
24 obviously needs to be some discussion about
70
1 whether the application goes back to the
2 judge who originally sentenced the defendant
3 or a new judge who can take a new fresh look.
4 There's questions about --
5 (Time clock sounds.)
6 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
7 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
8 You're welcome.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 Assembly.
11 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
12 Morinello, five minutes.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Good morning,
14 Your Honor.
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
16 Good morning.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Thank you for
18 the privilege of being before you.
19 I'd like to do a discussion -- I'm
20 wearing two hats. I'm a retired judge and
21 also a legislator. But I would really like
22 to have a positive discussion, and I'm really
23 excited to see the emphasis on
24 problem-solving courts. I wonder if you
71
1 might just briefly give us an explanation of
2 the theory so that we have a better
3 understanding as a group of what the
4 problem-solving courts are, please.
5 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
6 Sure. So I'm sure it may go back before
7 Judge Kay's time, but Judge Kay was a big
8 proponent of problem-solving courts because
9 of this revolving door of justice. We would
10 have a defendant appear, we would release the
11 defendant, and then before you knew it the
12 defendant came back with the same
13 difficulty -- the substance use issue, mental
14 health issues. And it was a revolving door
15 of justice that did not solve problems.
16 And so that is the origin of that.
17 And we've expanded it everywhere we could,
18 because -- I'm sure in the back of everyone's
19 mind, legislators and judges included -- we
20 can't send everyone to jail. And it doesn't
21 make sense to do that.
22 Because once a defendant completes a
23 drug treatment program or a veterans'
24 program, it reduces recidivism. It avoids
72
1 what some have called -- what is, you know,
2 overincarceration. And so instead of -- and
3 some of these cases are not serious crimes
4 being committed. So the question is, should
5 they do 30 days in jail or should they do,
6 you know, nine months of treatment?
7 And it's certainly much better and
8 more efficacious and crime-reducing if you
9 give people treatment so that they change
10 their lives, begin building families.
11 There's so many success stories that I know
12 me and you have seen in our lives as judges.
13 So that's really the foundation of that.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: I think you
15 and I both were problem-solving-court judges.
16 And I think it's important that they
17 understand that judicial discretion is an
18 important part of problem-solving courts.
19 There's been discussions on the need
20 for more mental health focusing, more drug
21 focusing. But I would like to put on the
22 record of the importance of the programs that
23 are administered through the courts on these
24 programs.
73
1 I'd also like to put on the record
2 that they do have to appear in front of a
3 judge. So you almost have a family figure
4 overseeing these individuals.
5 Judicial diversion. That is a form of
6 the problem-solving court, am I not correct,
7 directed at more serious crimes?
8 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
9 Yeah, diversion is the statute -- if you're
10 referring to the statute that was enacted
11 that dealt with drug treatment courts and
12 efforts to divert defendants out of jail and
13 into programs. Yes, more -- it was felonies.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: So right now
15 the court system focuses on all aspects of
16 what may be the underlying cause of someone
17 committing a crime.
18 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
19 That's right.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: And as is my
21 understanding, if I'm correct, that the
22 determination is if there is an underlying
23 cause, the courts do have programs to assist
24 them in absolving that, with guidance. Am I
74
1 correct on that?
2 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
3 Absolutely. Absolutely.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: I'd also like
5 to place on the record that there were many
6 times when some of the programs I oversaw
7 faced financial difficulties because of the
8 lack of funding. Is the focus of part of the
9 funding in this budget so that those programs
10 can continue with the courts so that we don't
11 have to interrupt treatment of those that we
12 can send back to a quality family life?
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
14 Yes, that's an excellent question. I know --
15 I looked at the schedule of speakers today,
16 and there are many who will be testifying
17 before you today who run these treatment
18 programs. And we, the court system, will
19 only be as good in problem-solving courts by
20 the adequate funding of all of those
21 programs. So when they appear before you, I
22 hope that that would be granted, yes.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Thank you,
24 Your Honor.
75
1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
2 You're welcome.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Senator Rolison.
5 SENATOR ROLISON: Thank you,
6 Madam Chair.
7 And good to see you again, Judge.
8 On the Second Look Act -- and the
9 Chief Judge had talked about it, refining it,
10 being part of the process, essentially, is
11 what I am reading from this.
12 Now, this is my third year here. I
13 don't remember a time -- and correct me if
14 I'm wrong -- where OCA, the Unified Court
15 System, the Chief Judge or any judge was
16 weighing in on legislation that was being
17 proposed by one of the bodies. Is that an
18 accurate statement, somewhat, to you, Judge?
19 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
20 think sometimes it might have depended on the
21 Court of Appeals judge or the Chief
22 Administrative Judge. I think Jonathan
23 Lippman, for example, was very vocal about
24 the things he supported, et cetera.
76
1 But to the extent that you're
2 suggesting that our administration is doing
3 things differently, I think that's absolutely
4 true. We want -- we've asked legislators to
5 give us the bills ahead of time so that we
6 can -- because oftentimes when the bill
7 passes and now it's going to go to the
8 Governor, they're asking for our opinion.
9 So we -- it was intentional on our
10 part to try to find out what legislators are
11 trying to do and to get a sense, get an
12 understanding of those bills before they are
13 sent to us at the last minute and then we're
14 almost required to either rubber-stamp them
15 or not take a position. So we've made a
16 deliberate attempt to treat these matters a
17 little differently.
18 SENATOR ROLISON: So is there
19 someone -- and thank you for that
20 explanation. And so we may see this in the
21 future. Is there going to be -- like in this
22 particular piece of legislation, which I
23 certainly have some questions about for a
24 later time, is there someone in the
77
1 Unified Court System that I can speak to
2 about my concerns about this, especially as
3 it relates to crime victims?
4 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
5 Yes.
6 SENATOR ROLISON: Because that's
7 currently written that you're going to have
8 the possibility that crime victims are going
9 to be continually having to weigh in on a
10 crime against them -- could even, if this was
11 enacted as is, that someone may say, I'm not
12 going to report that crime because I don't
13 want to relive it again and again and again.
14 And I think, you know, we spent many
15 years -- many years in this state really
16 advocating on behalf of crime victims. And I
17 think as this is currently written, it would
18 set that back and could potentially have
19 people say, You know what, I'm not going to
20 seek justice.
21 So I would love to have that
22 conversation, Judge.
23 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
24 Yeah, we're always open to that.
78
1 I only have a few seconds. I will say
2 that in my many years doing death penalty
3 work and other matters, that there also are a
4 lot of victims who would welcome an
5 opportunity like this.
6 SENATOR ROLISON: Thank you, Judge.
7 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Otis.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you, Judge.
9 Thank you for your testimony and thoughtful
10 comments.
11 And I'd also like to thank Chief Judge
12 Wilson for coming to visit one of the
13 problem-solving courts in my community, in
14 New Rochelle, Judge Jared Rice's Opportunity
15 Youth Part. And I've seen firsthand how
16 effective that work is in saving the lives
17 and the futures of emerging adults. And
18 Judge Wilson spoke about this at his State of
19 the Judiciary event earlier this week.
20 The question that I have, these courts
21 need resources. It's not just the judge and
22 the judicial staff, they need the kinds of
23 social service providers out there to work
24 with the participant in the program and turn
79
1 their lives around.
2 How can we grow -- and I'll just say
3 I'm an advocate for increasing funding for
4 these kinds of programs. But what model do
5 you think is the best way in terms of getting
6 money to the system to help grow these
7 ancillary services that make these programs
8 successful?
9 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
10 Sure. Sure. So I said this earlier, I
11 looked at the number of people testifying
12 before you today, and I know that even
13 outside of this hearing that you are probably
14 getting reached out to by the folks who run
15 these programs.
16 And we are only going to be as best as
17 we can if there are programs that people can
18 get sent to. So we don't feel like it's
19 right for us to be not only the judge and
20 then be in charge of the program that they're
21 getting sent to -- that has to be another
22 independent agency.
23 So we've been urging the mayor of
24 New York City and the mayors of all of the
80
1 other big cities who are responsible for
2 creating these programs to which we send the
3 people that we want to help.
4 One of the things that I think is
5 important to say is when a person
6 successfully completes a drug treatment
7 program, mental health treatment program,
8 veterans treatment program, it reduces crime,
9 it reduces recidivism. It makes those folks
10 more responsible and wanting to build
11 families. And those are the stories we hear.
12 Those are what the stats would show.
13 And so it's critically important for
14 us to fund all of the programs that are
15 receiving the defendants that we want to send
16 to them. And that's happening in some
17 places, and it's not happening in some other
18 places.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: I'd also like to
20 thank your court staff in the Office of Court
21 Administration that help the judges that want
22 to do these programs and grow these programs.
23 We need to get you more money.
24 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
81
1 Great. Thank you so much.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 Senator Shelley Mayer.
4 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you,
5 Madam Chair.
6 Thank you, Judge. Nice to see you.
7 It's clear that the Protect Our Courts
8 Act applies to town and village courts
9 outside of the OCA control. But has OCA
10 either collaborated or communicated with the
11 town and village courts to make sure they
12 understand that that law applies to folks
13 that appear in those courts as well?
14 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
15 believe we have, but I will -- there's been a
16 lot of discussions about this, and I think
17 this was brought up and we will get back to
18 you on it. I don't want to misrepresent that
19 we do that.
20 But we had all of our folks in
21 management reach out to all of our judges,
22 and I'm assuming it included the town and
23 village judges.
24 SENATOR MAYER: Well, thank you,
82
1 because for many of us who represent
2 communities where a large number of our
3 immigrant communities appear in these town
4 and village courts, that's an important fact.
5 You asked for additional money for the
6 virtual court appearance proceedings, and to
7 enhance the way you do that. Is that
8 non-Family Court appearances, or does that
9 include Family Court appearances?
10 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Can
11 you read the first part of that again?
12 SENATOR MAYER: The virtual court
13 appearance --
14 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Oh,
15 yes, yes.
16 SENATOR MAYER: -- that you've asked
17 for additional funds for, is that applicable
18 to Family Court proceedings as well as
19 non-Family Court proceedings?
20 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: We
21 do want to -- yeah. Yeah. I mean, I want to
22 make sure we're talking about the same thing.
23 So there's a program bill where we're
24 trying to amend CPL 182. That applies only
83
1 to criminal cases because several cases you
2 can do virtually without a statute.
3 But there are certain cases that we'd
4 like to do virtual, and there are certain
5 cases that they're -- we feel like it's
6 better to have someone come in, at least on
7 the first appearance. It's a daunting
8 process for litigants in Family Court, to
9 keep having to take off of work to come to
10 court.
11 So -- but it's with the consent of the
12 parties, when they consent. And particularly
13 support proceedings --
14 SENATOR MAYER: Support proceedings in
15 Family Court.
16 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: We
17 want those -- those can be virtual because
18 it's really mathematical. I mean, obviously
19 there's some discretion.
20 And, you know, there are times in
21 which it helps the parties to be able to not
22 have to take a day off of work, or half a day
23 off of work, to come into the court for that.
24 SENATOR MAYER: I understand that,
84
1 Judge, but I'm always sensitive to pro bono,
2 particularly women litigants in Family Court
3 who don't have an attorney, who they may
4 consent without really understanding they
5 don't have a chance to sort of make their
6 case in person.
7 So I always have concerns. I
8 understand the advantage for many people,
9 virtual appearances in Family Court, but
10 again, I think many people without an
11 attorney want the ability to see a judge or a
12 magistrate in person and may be able to make
13 their case --
14 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Let
15 me clarify, but it is with consent only. So
16 if there is a litigant --
17 (Time clock sounds.)
18 SENATOR MAYER: We'll follow up, thank
19 you.
20 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
21 Okay.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
23 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Ra.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
85
1 Good morning. Thank you to you and
2 your team for meeting with us yesterday to
3 discuss some of the aspects of the budget.
4 I wanted to just talk a little bit
5 about court security. And my colleague had
6 gotten into some of the initiatives from last
7 year, and I know we discussed them a bit
8 yesterday. But --
9 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
10 Assemblyman, would you mind just speaking up?
11 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Sure.
12 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: My
13 wife tells me I can never hear her, and I
14 think maybe she's right.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Sorry. Is that
16 better?
17 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
18 Yeah, it's helpful.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: So I wanted to just
20 talk a little bit about court security. I
21 know we discussed yesterday some of the
22 initiatives from last year's budget, and now
23 you're implementing that. But in particular,
24 about some concerns that have been brought to
86
1 me on local courts.
2 Now I know, obviously, it's a big part
3 of the OCA's budget to provide court security
4 or court officers. Is there any funding
5 that's provided to local courts for safety
6 for town and village judges?
7 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: You
8 know, I do not think that there is. I think
9 the town and village justices have to provide
10 their own security.
11 Sometimes they might use court
12 officers, experienced court officers, who
13 would do that in their evening sessions. But
14 they are required to -- I'm pretty sure
15 that's the correct answer. If I'm wrong, my
16 team will correct me and reach out to you.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. Thank you.
18 And one of the things I've heard,
19 particularly at that level, because I think
20 it varies greatly -- you know, as you saw
21 yesterday, one of our staff members who is a
22 local judge, you know, was telling us how
23 things are done in his courthouse and
24 thankfully there's always police on staff so
87
1 that, you know, if he's leaving at the end of
2 the night and somebody he just sentenced or
3 somebody is out there, that they make sure,
4 you know, he's getting home safely.
5 So it has been brought up, the idea of
6 at the village and local level, that some
7 judges who are legally licensed to carry
8 firearms might be interested in doing so. Is
9 that something OCA would support?
10 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
11 You're talking about judges who want to --
12 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: If they are licensed
13 to carry a firearm, to be able to do so when
14 they're, you know, on the bench and working.
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: You
16 know, that's -- I think that's -- I think we
17 allow that. But let me get back to you on
18 that too.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay.
20 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
21 Yeah, but a lot of judges are licensed to
22 carry. I think we had a policy in place some
23 time ago where we preferred them not to bring
24 their firearm in the courthouse. But we'll
88
1 get back to you on exactly the policy now.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. And then
3 lastly, you've had -- I know we've talked a
4 little bit about the discovery changes in the
5 proposals. But I think it's worth repeating
6 something you talked about yesterday for my
7 colleagues here regarding some of the
8 initiatives that you have already undertaken
9 to deal with dismissals, particularly down in
10 New York City.
11 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Oh,
12 sure. So what we -- we were concerned about
13 this. You know, we have old cases in
14 Rikers Island -- this is New York City
15 only -- and we had all sorts of strategy to
16 deal with these old cases where defendants
17 were in jail. And our AJs in each of these
18 respective counties were all over that.
19 Then we had this whole big bucket of
20 cases which are getting bogged down in motion
21 practice and all sorts of other delays
22 related to discovery.
23 And so our case processing initiative,
24 which we just piloted in Brooklyn, and we
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1 understand it's doing really well,
2 required -- basically required an
3 acceleration of when the discovery, the
4 important discovery needs to -- all discovery
5 is important. But there were some particular
6 pieces of discovery -- body cam, police
7 reports, and all of those things that needed
8 to be turned over quickly.
9 So we accelerated the prosecutor's
10 burden. We expected the defense to review
11 that discovery quickly and within 35 days, I
12 think, determine whether they're going to
13 challenge. We required the parties to confer
14 with either a judge, a JHO or a law clerk
15 and, if there is something still missing, to
16 quickly get the prosecutor's office to
17 provide that information.
18 And it's early, but it does appear to
19 be successful.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Senator Scarcella-Spanton.
23 SENATOR SCARCELLA-SPANTON: Good
24 morning. Thank you, Judge Zayas.
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1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Hi,
2 how are you?
3 SENATOR SCARCELLA-SPANTON: Very good.
4 Thanks for being here with us.
5 I know we've talked a lot about
6 discovery and I feel like we each kind of
7 have a role to play in it. What can be done
8 or what has been done by OCA to expedite
9 criminal cases and to resolve some of the
10 discovery issues early to abate dismissals
11 due to the speedy trial time running out?
12 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
13 Right. So a lot of the things I've explained
14 is we've put into practice -- we had all of
15 these stakeholder meetings, we agreed to a
16 conference order. So as soon as a --
17 particularly someone who is incarcerated at
18 Rikers, to have those folks confer with the
19 judge immediately. And if there are
20 disagreements, they have to come before the
21 judge again.
22 And we put into practice these
23 timelines by which these things needed to be
24 done. And, you know, sometimes if a -- but
91
1 we put in safeguards too. It's guardrails
2 and then these are the dates by which you
3 have to do these things. But if there's good
4 cause, because of the voluminous nature of
5 the discovery, we can extend it.
6 So there was hyper-oversight of the
7 discovery process. And when you do that, it
8 avoids these motions that come later which
9 slow things done and might take months and
10 months to solve.
11 SENATOR SCARCELLA-SPANTON: Thank you.
12 And my next question is we spoke
13 earlier about Family Courts as well, and
14 we're really excited Staten Island's getting
15 a new Family Court. But I know it's been
16 quite -- it will be quite a long project.
17 Do you have any updates on this
18 project? Because right now the Family Court
19 lawyers, they're working out of trailers.
20 I've gone to tour some of them just to see;
21 they're right next door to my office.
22 But we're excited for it, I just
23 wanted to see if you had an update on that
24 project.
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1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
2 just saw an update. I can't tell you I
3 remember it all. But there is an update. I
4 mean, I saw renderings of it.
5 We did move a lot of the Family Court
6 judges into Supreme Court. We are making
7 sure that my other courthouses are
8 accommodating Family Court judges as well.
9 You're right, there are these trailers as
10 well.
11 And I'll tell you that the courthouse
12 looks beautiful.
13 SENATOR SCARCELLA-SPANTON: It's
14 definitely going to look beautiful.
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
16 Yeah, it's going to look beautiful.
17 SENATOR SCARCELLA-SPANTON: And I
18 think in the interests of time, we can talk
19 about this another time. But I just wanted
20 to mention that I do know the hardships that
21 judges go through with guardianship cases,
22 and I would love to work with you to figure
23 out how we can better support those cases
24 moving forward.
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1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
2 Sure. And I'll take this opportunity to tell
3 you all that I'm happy to have me and my team
4 meet with anyone, anyone who wants to talk to
5 us about anything. It doesn't have to be at
6 this hearing.
7 SENATOR SCARCELLA-SPANTON: Thank you
8 very much.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 Assembly.
11 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman Cruz.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CRUZ: There we go.
13 Judge Zayas, always great to see you. Two
14 quick questions.
15 I'd love to hear updates on the
16 implementation of Clean Slate and how that's
17 going and if there are additional resources
18 that you need from us in order to support
19 that process to ensure that it's done in a
20 timely manner.
21 And then going back to some of the
22 questionings around the interactions with ICE
23 inside of the courtroom, my understanding
24 from the way that the law was written and the
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1 way that the process actually works is
2 there's not necessarily a connecting point.
3 Because if ICE is conducting the activity
4 that they are allowed to conduct in the
5 public spaces when there is a judicial
6 warrant -- because it's happening in public
7 spaces, there isn't necessarily a connector
8 to the court system whereby you can track
9 when it is actually happening.
10 Is there a way for us to perhaps fix
11 that, help in fixing that? I don't want to
12 create more paperwork, but I think it's
13 important for us to know when it is
14 happening. One of the things that we are
15 seeing now is lots of confusion, lots of
16 rumors, lots of -- I mean, I heard stories
17 of -- there were 20 buses outside a courtroom
18 outside of Long Island this week. No one can
19 actually verify this. And that 20 people
20 were taken -- no one can verify it.
21 It's because there's a missing link or
22 seems to be a missing link there.
23 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
24 Right. So let me address your -- well, the
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1 Clean Slate issue is easier because we're all
2 over that. I talked to Senator Myrie about
3 that. We've had meetings with you, and we'll
4 continue to do that.
5 We feel like we're on track to get
6 that done. Our research people are going to
7 get that done.
8 With respect to ICE, the protocol
9 requires that when anyone from ICE enters our
10 courthouse, they have to present our officers
11 with whatever documents they have that they
12 think might give them the right to do
13 something in the courthouse. And so that is
14 tracked. That is sent directly to -- those
15 paperwork -- that paperwork is tracked. The
16 chief of -- or the major in that courthouse
17 is sending that information downtown.
18 Immediately, that case is -- that
19 paperwork is brought to a judge who is going
20 to be deciding whether or not this is the
21 type of warrant that's a proper warrant, a
22 judicial warrant, or just a detainer. If
23 it's just a detainer, they are not allowed to
24 arrest in the courthouse, in the courtroom,
96
1 or anywhere. Maybe down the street
2 somewhere, et cetera.
3 And that I think is being chronicled,
4 and there's a reporting requirement of
5 requirement that.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CRUZ: So perhaps I
7 misunderstood what you responded to earlier
8 on this particular question. So I'm glad to
9 hear that it is being tracked. And it would
10 be great, especially with everything that is
11 happening, to get a timely reporting on that.
12 Thank you.
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
14 Yeah, we can provide the protocols to you as
15 well.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CRUZ: Thank you.
17 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
18 Senate.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 Senator Murray.
21 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
22 Chairwoman.
23 Thank you for being here, Judge.
24 So in your statement -- and I'm kind
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1 of cherry-picking here, but you had said you
2 want to make sure all New Yorkers have access
3 to the fair, efficient and thoughtful
4 administration of justice. You also said you
5 want New Yorkers to have confidence in the
6 judicial branch.
7 My good friend Judge Morinello earlier
8 used the word "discretion."
9 So about a year or so ago, America
10 saw -- the world saw as a group of men
11 brutally attacked, assaulted, beat, kicked
12 police officers in Times Square. The police
13 did their job. They arrested most of them,
14 brought them to court. And the next day
15 America also watched as these defendants
16 walked out literally flipping the bird in the
17 camera to all of us, laughing, giggling as no
18 bail was set and they were released. Come to
19 find out, several of them fled the state and
20 were caught later.
21 What do you think that does to the
22 confidence that the public has in the
23 judicial system? And does that have any
24 impact on the morale in the courts?
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1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
2 That's a really good question that has been
3 keeping me up at night. Because in New York
4 we are sometimes sentencing folks to
5 prison -- and it's devastating to the rule of
6 law, devastating to judges who are, you know,
7 sentencing people to jail for maybe even less
8 serious things. And then to see that happen,
9 it is not good for judicial morale,
10 obviously, and it's very, very, very
11 concerning to us all.
12 SENATOR MURRAY: Do you worry that the
13 public's confidence in the court system is
14 eroding when --
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
16 Yes.
17 SENATOR MURRAY: -- they see things
18 like that?
19 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
20 the National Center for State Courts recently
21 issued a report which said that the public's
22 perception of the federal branches of
23 government -- the federal courts is the worst
24 that it's ever been, but the public
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1 confidence in state courts are going up.
2 It's still -- it's still too low. And
3 we're doing everything we can to increase the
4 public's confidence in the courts. Civic
5 participation -- we're going out to the
6 community more, we're bringing the community
7 into the courthouses more to -- and doing all
8 sorts of things, truly, to make that happen,
9 to increase public confidence in the --
10 SENATOR MURRAY: But specific to
11 New York, we're the only ones where you have
12 no discretion when considering the
13 dangerousness or the past record when setting
14 bail. Does that hurt the public's
15 confidence, in your opinion?
16 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
17 Yeah, I'm not sure -- I'm not sure the --
18 (Time clock sounds.)
19 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
20 Happy to talk to you later, then.
21 SENATOR MURRAY: Sure. Thank you.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, it's your
23 turn now.
24 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
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1 Burdick.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you,
3 Chairs.
4 And Your Honor, thank you for your
5 testimony and your work. And I also want to
6 thank you for your response to
7 Assemblywoman Cruz regarding the protocol
8 where ICE intends to enter a courtroom.
9 I have a question that came out of the
10 budget hearing on the environment, where we
11 heard testimony about concern that there was
12 a general lack of experience, expertise on
13 complex environmental litigation. And while,
14 you know, I suppose a separate environmental
15 court system could be created, I know that
16 there are specialized environmental parts, at
17 least in New York City and Suffolk County,
18 but I'm not aware of anything outside.
19 And I'm wondering if, since you have
20 the authority, as I understand, to issue an
21 administrative order to allow, say,
22 Westchester County -- part of which I
23 represent -- to give them the authorization
24 to do so, have you given consideration to the
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1 expansion of the system of the specialized
2 environmental parts? And particularly since
3 I don't think that it necessitates the
4 appointment of an additional Supreme Court
5 judge.
6 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
7 I am intrigued, because this is the first
8 time I've heard of this. I didn't -- I never
9 knew that there was an interest in starting
10 these parts.
11 They sound interesting to me. I don't
12 know anything about them. I'll admit when I
13 lack knowledge about something. As you know,
14 I try to be transparent. So maybe we can set
15 up a meeting and you can tell me more about
16 it. Or your staff can meet with my staff.
17 But I want to be honest with you, I
18 have not heard about this.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: You also
20 emphasized the crushing inventory and really
21 the need for more judges. Part of it I
22 understand is a space issue. Has OCA
23 considered recommending to the Executive that
24 it include help for capital needs, either
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1 leasehold improvements or building additions
2 and so forth?
3 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: You
4 know, by law, it's the county that's required
5 to do this.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: No, I recognize
7 that.
8 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
9 Yeah. I mean, we have, for example, in
10 extenuating circumstances created a lease
11 space that really the county should have
12 given to us, but sometimes it takes so much
13 more time.
14 One of the problems is if you mean --
15 "mean" is not the right word. But if you go
16 after the municipality, then you breed a bad
17 relationship.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: I understand.
19 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
20 we try to deal with it much more
21 diplomatically.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Great, thank
23 you.
24 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
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1 Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 Senator Gonzalez.
4 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Hi, good morning.
5 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
6 Good morning.
7 SENATOR GONZALEZ: It's so good to see
8 you again, Judge Zayas.
9 I saw that there were some items in
10 the budget regarding the use of artificial
11 intelligence in the court system. And I've
12 so enjoyed working with you and your
13 colleagues on the AI Working Group that you
14 put together last year, so I just wanted to
15 ask if you have received any initial
16 insights, how you think the technology should
17 be used and how the courts should approach
18 creating a framework for AI use.
19 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
20 Yeah. And first of all, thank you. And
21 several Assemblymembers are on that as well.
22 And thank you for being willing to do that
23 with your specialty.
24 We think that the advisory committee
104
1 is doing an extraordinary job. I hear
2 everybody's learning a lot with respect to
3 that.
4 I'm particularly interested in the
5 subcommittee work, one of which is on
6 evidence, deep fakes. There's a concern
7 about how easy it is to manipulate a -- using
8 AI to manipulate a particular video, for
9 example. And the subcommittee that's
10 discussing the admissibility of foundational
11 requirements, authenticity, et cetera.
12 And then from -- as an administrator
13 of 17,000 employees and judges, 1400 judges,
14 I'm -- there's a subcommittee that's going to
15 help us to come up with recommendations as to
16 how our own people will be able to use AI in
17 their work.
18 We did -- we are in the process of
19 experimenting with all of these interesting
20 projects. I've used a few to help me to
21 write a speech. And we're learning. We're
22 learning. And we appreciate all the work
23 that you and the cochairs and so many others
24 have done on that work, and I appreciate you
105
1 taking time to be a part of that.
2 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Absolutely. And
3 certainly appreciate your leadership in this
4 area.
5 I've certainly found being a part of
6 the working group really enriching, and
7 certainly want to call out the work and focus
8 being put towards bias and discrimination,
9 ensuring that any new technology is not
10 amplifying existing inequities.
11 And to my -- the second question just
12 is if the courts need any additional support
13 from the Legislature for modernization
14 efforts, new technologies, and more.
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
16 might have missed your question there, but
17 what --
18 SENATOR GONZALEZ: If you need
19 additional support from the Legislature. How
20 can we help?
21 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
22 Yeah. So I think once our advisory committee
23 issues a final report, hopefully that will be
24 part of it.
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1 I think the legislation part is going
2 to be a big part of the ask eventually.
3 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Perfect. Thank you
4 so much.
5 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
6 Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Bores.
8 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
9 Yes, Senator Bores -- I mean Assemblymember
10 Bores -- we support lifting the caps.
11 (Laughter.)
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Couldn't have said
13 it better myself.
14 (Laughter.)
15 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Could you talk a
16 little bit about the impact of the backlog,
17 especially in the State Supreme Court? You
18 mentioned it in your testimony. Can you say
19 a little more?
20 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
21 Sure. I mean, let me just clarify. The
22 backlog in our felony-level courts is really
23 limited to New York City. And some say it's
24 a lack of -- we don't have enough judges to
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1 handle these cases.
2 And if you've read my budget request,
3 I'm asking for 10 additional Criminal Court
4 judges who I expect to sit in Criminal Court,
5 but then I would be able to elevate those who
6 are already sitting in Criminal Court to
7 Supreme Court.
8 And so the effect is that defendants
9 are staying on Rikers Island longer. I mean,
10 that's one effect. But I hesitate to say
11 that because judges are always, always,
12 always available to try any case that is
13 presented to us as ready.
14 You will never find a judge say, when
15 a defense attorney and the prosecutor comes
16 in and says, We're both ready for trial --
17 that case is going to trial. It's not
18 getting adjourned. It's the parties who
19 say -- and sometimes it's the prosecutor,
20 sometimes it's the defense -- We cannot try
21 this, I'm not ready, I didn't get this,
22 et cetera.
23 And so a judge's responsibility is to
24 push and push and push --
108
1 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: I'm giving you a
2 softball here to ask for more resources. You
3 don't need to caveat the --
4 (Overtalk.)
5 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
6 Okay. That's what we're looking for.
7 (Overtalk.)
8 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: One other
9 question. Given our need for more judges,
10 one way that sometimes we lose them is
11 certificated judges choose to retire because
12 they're worried that their spouse might lose
13 benefits or the pension if they were to die
14 while they're still there, often known as the
15 "death gamble."
16 As you know, this Legislature passed a
17 bill last year to correct that for judges.
18 And you've said this in other venues, but
19 just to be clear, with this budget and going
20 forward, would you be able to cover the cost
21 of fixing the death gamble without additional
22 appropriations?
23 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
24 Absolutely. Absolutely. And we've asked the
109
1 Senate Majority Leader as well as the Speaker
2 to put these death gamble bills in their
3 one-house bill.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Great. And I
5 think just because the recording didn't
6 capture it before I started speaking, could
7 you say what you said right at the start of
8 my questioning?
9 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Oh,
10 yes. We absolutely support the lifting of
11 the caps.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
14 Assemblywoman Shimsky.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Thank you very
16 much, Mr. Chairman.
17 Good morning. First of all, I want to
18 thank you for working on making the courts
19 more accessible, bringing down the cost of
20 litigation with changes like video
21 conferencing, e-filing and so on.
22 While we're on the subject, in the
23 9th Judicial District we are 13 judges short.
24 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: We
110
1 are what?
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Thirteen
3 judges short, according to the Constitution.
4 And we certainly do have backlogs in
5 our courts. So anything we could do to get
6 one or two more this year and --
7 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
8 You're talking about Supreme Court judges?
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Yes. Yes. So
10 that's going to be very important to us.
11 One issue I want to have a little bit
12 more dialogue on concerns continuing
13 professional education for our judges and for
14 related staff. You know, we've done a lot of
15 substantive legal reforms the last few years,
16 including bail reform. We are trying
17 different things with procedure and with
18 rules, you know, as with the filing and
19 everything.
20 What are we doing to make sure our
21 continuing legal education for the employees
22 in our court system, including our judges, is
23 keeping up and they're getting the kind of
24 deep understanding they need to be able to
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1 rule on cases in these matters?
2 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
3 Right, yeah. So we are doing all sorts of
4 things. And it's -- in Westchester we have
5 the Judicial Institute, which I'm sure you're
6 familiar with. And judges are regularly
7 trained and go to training in July for a
8 week.
9 Oftentimes judges are part of
10 associations, judicial associations; they get
11 another three or four days of training. Dean
12 Davidson is doing an extraordinary job and is
13 regularly -- I'm telling you it seems like
14 almost every week I get an email from her
15 offering judges additional training, remote
16 webinars, et cetera.
17 And so I do really believe that there
18 is training available quite regularly. And
19 Dean Davidson is doing an extraordinary job
20 not only in putting these panels together,
21 but also in making folks aware of it. I
22 understand in Nassau County recently
23 Dean Davidson and a bunch of other educators
24 went to Nassau County. So they're actually
112
1 taking their show on the road and coming into
2 the courthouses to work on things. Things
3 like -- I think that --
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SHIMSKY: Thank you.
5 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
6 Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
8 Walker.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you,
10 Your Honor. Your testimony today has been,
11 you know, quite frankly very inspiring. And
12 it's an amazing thing to have someone who is
13 of your caliber and experience at the helm.
14 You did explain to us, with respect to
15 discovery, the due diligence standard: That
16 prosecutors have to act in good faith, that
17 defense attorneys have to produce the
18 document that they are purporting exists but
19 has not been turned over in discovery, and
20 indicated that those are procedural
21 safeguards with respect to having cases
22 dismissed on speedy trial.
23 But my question is, is there an
24 instance where the speedy trial clock can
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1 stop?
2 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
3 Yes. So the speedy trial clock stops when
4 the defense makes a motion to challenge the
5 prosecutor's certification of compliance with
6 discovery. And other events -- there are
7 many events which stop the speedy trial
8 clock.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Is there an
10 event that would stop the speedy trial clock
11 if the prosecutor requests more time, or some
12 other instance, as well as the defense
13 counsel?
14 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
15 don't think so. I think the prosecutor gets
16 to stop the speedy trial clock when he or she
17 files and answers "ready for trial." That's
18 what stops the speedy trial clock.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Okay, no
20 problem. So there is no instance where, if
21 they are requesting more time -- or if they
22 ask the judge that the speedy trial clock can
23 stop.
24 But you did, I believe, mention that
114
1 it can be extended, based on the conference
2 timeline that gets presented whenever it is
3 the parties are able to meet with the judge.
4 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
5 Yeah, let me add something else. There is a
6 provision in the Speedy Trial Statute that
7 refers to extenuating circumstances. So if
8 they can persuade a judge that there was
9 extenuating circumstances which prevented
10 them from doing something -- it's not
11 something to choose a lot, because it's
12 really got to be extenuating circumstances --
13 that might also stop the speedy trial clock.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you.
15 And there is another question that I
16 have with respect to U.S. Bank. In many of
17 the foreclosure cases, large financial
18 institutions like U.S. Bank have lack of
19 capacity and they also lack transparency and
20 accountability in residential foreclosure
21 cases.
22 What steps is the court system taking
23 to ensure the integrity of these processes
24 and proceedings?
115
1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
2 Yes. I see -- I have a lot to say about
3 that, but I see I only have three seconds
4 left. I know our offices have been talking,
5 and I'm happy to meet with you and talk
6 further about it.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: No problem.
8 Thank you.
9 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
12 Simon.
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
14 Good morning. I think the last time you
15 asked me a question, I misinterpreted your
16 question and gave you an off-the-wall answer.
17 I will try not to do that again.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Well, thank you,
19 Your Honor, I appreciate that.
20 So I'm not going to ask you the same
21 question again. But -- and I do want to say
22 thank you for agreeing to speak with me
23 offline about that other particular matter I
24 raised.
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1 I did want to say that I'm very
2 pleased to see the attention that's being
3 given to the capital improvements and the
4 accessibility of our courts, which have
5 really lagged for people with disabilities,
6 including their participation in court
7 proceedings. And some of which, of course,
8 being remote will make a big difference.
9 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
10 Yes.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I'm curious,
12 years ago there used to be a committee that
13 was mostly people from the court system but a
14 few of us outsiders on it to advise the court
15 on ADA matters. Do you still have a
16 committee like that that you're working with
17 that include people with disabilities?
18 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
19 Yes. We have an advisory committee which now
20 has I think three cochairs that make
21 recommendations to us on what we can do to
22 increase accessibility and access to justice
23 for folks with disabilities.
24 It's something that came up in -- when
117
1 a blind juror, and you might have heard about
2 this, who shows up for jury duty, and there
3 were some questions about how we handle that.
4 And so that caused our team to immediately
5 reach out to our advisory committee and give
6 us some input on what we can do.
7 The question is can a blind person sit
8 on a jury where there are things that they
9 might be required to see in order to -- you
10 know, the other question is credibility.
11 When a witness testifies, if you can't see
12 the witness, how do you judge credibility?
13 But we've been looking into whether
14 there's accommodations that could be made,
15 and that's ongoing. The -- they're still
16 looking into this.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: There's an early
18 DC Circuit Court opinion on that saying yes,
19 the blind person can serve. But just FYI.
20 I'll send you that case.
21 I also wanted to just thank you -- I
22 don't know whether you were personally
23 involved or not, but the Red Hook Justice
24 Center, as you know, is really a crown jewel,
118
1 and Judge Calabrese handled that for so many
2 years. And the fellow who is there now is
3 really, really excellent. So he's a fitting,
4 you know, successor.
5 Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you,
7 Assemblywoman.
8 Assemblyman Palmesano.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes, thank
10 you, sir, for being here.
11 I have one question -- I think this
12 should be just a yes or no answer -- and then
13 I have another question I want to follow-up
14 with.
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Can
16 you get closer to the mic? I'm having --
17 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes. Yes.
18 I have one question, it should be a
19 yes-or-no answer, regarding the discovery
20 laws --
21 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
22 That's what judges usually say, "yes or no."
23 (Laughter.)
24 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes, I know.
119
1 But if you have to elaborate, maybe we
2 can do it offline, but I don't think you
3 should.
4 Because we've been talking about
5 discovery, I'm curious -- and I don't want to
6 get into the nuts and bolts of it. I'm just
7 curious, does an OCA document have the
8 statistics pre-discovery and post-discovery
9 on the number of cases that have been
10 dismissed? And is discovery compliance cited
11 for reasons for dismissal?
12 Do you have that data? And if so,
13 could you share it with us? Yes or no.
14 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
15 Okay, so you asked a compound question, so I
16 object --
17 (Laughter.)
18 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: No,
19 I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
20 No -- yes, we do have that data. The
21 second part of your question, I'm not sure we
22 have the data. But we do have the data,
23 2019, before discovery was enacted, and how
24 many cases were dismissed. So we're happy to
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1 share that with you.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Okay, thank
3 you.
4 My next question is on the bail reform
5 laws. In the Governor's State of the State
6 she said the new changes basically give the
7 judges the ability they need to combat
8 reoffenders, and that no new changes are
9 required. However, the new NYPD commissioner
10 recently published an op-ed for the City of
11 New York outlining the surge in recidivism
12 and argued that it really stems from the
13 failure to adequately address our state bail
14 reform laws.
15 Do you agreed with the NYPD
16 commissioner that the surge in recidivism
17 across the state can be attributed to the
18 reluctance to bring commonsense changes to
19 our state bail reform laws, like allowing
20 judges the discretion to consider the
21 dangerousness of an individual when setting
22 bail? Or do you agree with Governor Hochul
23 that what she's done is enough to keep the
24 public safe?
121
1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: You
2 spoke very quickly there, so I'm not sure I
3 picked up on everything and I'm not sure I
4 understand the question. Please forgive me
5 for that. But I'm happy to --
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: I'll try to
7 summarize.
8 The Governor said the inactions of the
9 bail reforms we passed are good enough. The
10 NYPD commissioner just did an op-ed saying
11 there's a surge in recidivism, and basically
12 it cited the bail reform laws as the reason.
13 Do you agree with the NYPD
14 commissioner that recidivism can be put back
15 to the bail reform laws, or do you agree in
16 allowing things like judges have discretion
17 on the dangerousness of an individual? Or do
18 you think the Governor is right in saying
19 enough has been done on bail reform to keep
20 the public safe?
21 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
22 mean, the way I heard the Governor say that
23 is not to take discretion away from the
24 judges.
122
1 But there's some folks who think that
2 just because a judge has discretion to do
3 something, that they must do it. But it only
4 gives them the choice to do it or not with
5 respect to bail.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Do you agree
7 with the NYPD commissioner that --
8 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
9 haven't read that. Really, I haven't read
10 that, I haven't heard about it.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: I'd like your
12 opinion after you read it.
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
14 Yeah, I'm happy to read it, yeah. I just
15 haven't come across it.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thank you,
17 sir.
18 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
19 I've been preparing for this meeting -- I
20 haven't had a chance to read anything.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: I understand.
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Meeks.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: There we go.
123
1 Thank you for joining us here this morning.
2 I have a couple of questions. One of
3 them is pertaining to professional
4 development. What are your thoughts and
5 views on ongoing professional development for
6 judges as well as the court system? Judges
7 from top to bottom across New York State.
8 Because what we find is laws apply one way in
9 Monroe County another way in Kings County.
10 Can you speak to that?
11 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
12 Sure. So I am very proud of the work of
13 Dean Davidson in terms of the webinars -- I
14 mean, it seems like almost every week the
15 dean is putting out programs for judges, and
16 it's -- they're doing this at their desk.
17 But there's also so many programs,
18 trainings in July for all of the judges. If
19 you're a new judge, you get almost two weeks
20 of training, depending on your particular
21 specialty. You get additional training
22 locally in the courthouses that you get sent
23 to.
24 So I am very satisfied with our
124
1 training program and professional
2 development.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: You mentioned new
4 judges. Should that apply for tenured judges
5 as well?
6 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
7 What type of judges?
8 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Should that apply
9 for judges -- longstanding judges?
10 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
11 Yes. Yes. No, everybody is required to do
12 this training. And it's -- I mean, I just
13 saw something on medicine, how to deal with
14 medicine, that was done in Nassau County
15 recently.
16 But we are constantly making
17 presentations to judges on different areas of
18 the law. There is archives that judges can
19 go to. There is -- I mean, the other thing
20 is I was an administrative judge in Queens
21 for a while. And even though it was not my
22 technical responsibility to train the judges,
23 we appoint mentor judges to newer judges.
24 And every time the Court of Appeals
125
1 would issue a decision, I would summarize
2 that decision personally and then send it to
3 all of the judges so that they would be --
4 criminal cases, because I sat in criminal --
5 so that they would be familiar with the Court
6 of Appeals cases that just came out.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Thanks.
8 And as it relates to the special
9 courts, 350-plus special courts around the
10 state, are there any that focus on not just
11 the individuals, like say it's drug court,
12 but that reaches to the families? Like, for
13 instance, children often experience adverse
14 childhood experiences based upon the parent's
15 lifestyle. Are they far-reaching to touch
16 the children of these individuals?
17 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
18 Yes. Yes. I mean, there are efforts to do
19 that. And sometimes if it's a young person,
20 the parents are in the courtroom. So in a
21 sense, the judge talking to the parent and
22 the child -- the parent not directly, but the
23 child directly.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Thank you.
126
1 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
2 Giglio.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: So we come from
4 Riverhead, Suffolk County, New York, and our
5 court has been out of compliance for many
6 years. We have 10,250 cases on the docket,
7 including criminal, traffic, civic, and no
8 mechanism to make the courts come into
9 compliance. So attorneys can meet with
10 incarcerated individuals on their
11 arraignment, and also for our justices to be
12 safe and also the connection of funds for
13 tickets to be -- those people to be safe.
14 We've -- the Town of Riverhead has
15 purchased a new building, it will cost them
16 $12 million. And the building that the
17 town board was in remains vacant, waiting for
18 retrofit for the justices and for the court
19 to move into that building.
20 The estimated cost is $3 million. And
21 there is no mechanism to try and get that
22 funding in order to make the courts safe and
23 also to help the people that are meeting with
24 their attorneys to prepare for trial or to
127
1 prepare to go before the judge.
2 What can you do to help them?
3 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
4 when you say you're out of compliance, you
5 don't have places for your Supreme Court --
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Our holding
7 cells are insufficient. Our mechanisms for
8 the attorneys to meet with people before they
9 go before the judge -- there's just no --
10 there's no place for them right now in the
11 current court. And they need to retrofit
12 that building in order to make it so that
13 it's compliant.
14 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
15 This is the Supreme Court and the
16 County Court in Riverhead? Or is there
17 another place?
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: No, it's the
19 Town Court. It's the justice court for
20 criminal, civil and for, you know, tickets.
21 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: But
22 is it serious -- is it felony criminal?
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Yeah, yeah,
24 it's their arraignments. It's when they're
128
1 coming before the judges.
2 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
3 It's the Riverhead Court that -- I'm familiar
4 with Riverhead Court.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Yeah, there's
6 several courts in Riverhead, so -- we happen
7 to be the county seat. But the Town of
8 Riverhead itself, their court.
9 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Is
10 it a town and village court?
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: It is.
12 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
13 Okay. So that -- I'm asking for a really
14 particular reason.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Understood.
16 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
17 town and villages are required -- we don't
18 have any authority to do anything in those
19 courts in terms of facilities.
20 If you were talking to me about the
21 Riverhead where Supreme Court is and
22 County Court is, then that's under our
23 jurisdiction.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Okay, so I
129
1 should ask this to somebody down the road in
2 further testimony today?
3 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
4 Yeah, it's really the town board that does
5 that. We don't have any control over the
6 town and village courts --
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: And quickly
8 back to what my colleague on the other side,
9 the Senate side was saying about
10 consideration of seriousness and
11 dangerousness when setting bail. You know,
12 everywhere else in the country you can
13 consider how serious or dangerous someone may
14 be in order to set bail. And why are we not
15 doing that?
16 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
17 Yes, I think that's a good question for
18 everybody in this room why we're not doing
19 that.
20 (Laughter.)
21 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
22 It's really not a judicial question, right?
23 I mean, the --
24 (Time clock sounds.)
130
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Thank you.
2 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
3 You're welcome.
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
5 Kelles.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: It's still
7 morning, right? Yeah, fifteen minutes.
8 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: How
9 are you?
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: So I just
11 wanted to add my two cents about authorizing
12 environmental courts. We desperately need
13 them. We have so many environmental laws and
14 so few law enforcement --
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
16 Could you -- I have a hearing problem.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I was talking
18 about environmental courts, the
19 authorization, just an extra plug in
20 supporting that. We desperately need them.
21 So four quick questions. Your OCA
22 dashboard shows that dismissal rates in
23 New York City have not increased in
24 Superior Courts where indicted felonies are
131
1 prosecuted, correct? That's how I read it.
2 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I'm
3 really having trouble hearing you. But with
4 respect to --
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: The dashboard,
6 the OCA dashboard that you have --
7 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: You
8 said something about environmental -- I think
9 they're a great idea.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Fantastic.
11 (Overtalk.)
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: The way I'm
13 looking at the OCA dashboard, it is not
14 showing an increase in dismissals in New York
15 City specifically related to the indicted
16 felonies.
17 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Not
18 showing --
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: It is not
20 showing increases in Superior Courts where
21 indicted felonies are prosecuted, the
22 dismissal rates. Is that correct? Did I
23 read that correctly, the dismissal rates in
24 New York City in the courts?
132
1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I'm
2 so sorry, I really --
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I'm just going
4 to say yes, they are flat.
5 (Laughter.)
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Okay? You
7 aren't showing increased dismissal rates in
8 the indicted felonies in the New York City
9 dashboard.
10 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
11 Indicted felonies are not getting dismissed.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Correct.
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: In
14 New York City.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Correct.
16 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
17 That's true.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Correct.
19 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: It
20 is the felony complaints and the misdemeanors
21 that are getting dismissed on speedy trial at
22 like way higher rates than they used to be.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Do you have --
24 can you share with us why you think that is?
133
1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: Oh.
2 Yeah. I mean, I have some thoughts.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I'd love to
4 hear them.
5 (Laughter.)
6 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
7 When -- the fact that something is getting
8 indicted, right, tells me that prosecutors
9 see that as a really serious case that they
10 want to prosecute robustly.
11 And so they then are focusing on --
12 and I know there's prosecutors here who can
13 feel free to, you know, correct me. But they
14 are -- they are complying with their
15 discovery because that is their really
16 important case. And so there's no way
17 they're going to let that important case that
18 gets indicted --
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Let me ask you,
20 do you think that there are cases in which
21 the misdemeanors that are coming forward,
22 it's because there isn't enough information
23 or evidence to proceed with those, but there
24 are potentially more that are coming in?
134
1 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
2 mean, there are misdemeanor cases as well
3 that don't get dismissed for speedy trial and
4 it might be that the prosecutors, again, are
5 focusing, hyperfocused on the misdemeanor --
6 the recidivist misdemeanor and they feel like
7 they have to do something with that. And so
8 those cases go forward.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: So I'll get the
10 other three questions maybe offline.
11 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
12 Yeah, and I'm happy to meet with you.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Sure. Thank
14 you.
15 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
16 Sure. You're welcome.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 We're now on to the chair of
19 Judiciary's three minutes of follow-up, Brad
20 Hoylman-Sigal.
21 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you,
22 Madam Chair.
23 Wanted to ask you, Judge, about the
24 January 6th pardons. And there was a
135
1 question earlier about judicial security. We
2 know that some of the defendants who were
3 pardoned had been on social media taunting
4 prosecutors and judges after that decision by
5 the Trump administration. Are we seeing that
6 in New York? Can you assess any impact of
7 those pardons?
8 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: I
9 haven't heard anything about that. I mean,
10 does it affect judges, is that what you're
11 asking?
12 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Yeah.
13 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
14 Yeah. I mean, if I'm an elected
15 Supreme Court judge, it's very disturbing for
16 me to see the extent to which we put young
17 men and young women in jail in New York for
18 things way less serious than what happened on
19 January 6th.
20 And I'm not saying I would do this,
21 but there's a temptation, I think, on judges,
22 like particularly judges of color, wondering
23 like, Wait, here we are putting people in
24 jail for less serious things than these
136
1 people got pardoned for.
2 And I'm not saying judges will do it,
3 but that transparency -- you know, you know
4 me, I speak my mind. It's something that
5 I've heard judges say. Like here we are
6 putting people in jail for less serious
7 things, and they're the ones that get
8 pardoned.
9 So, I mean, it's -- I'm not saying
10 it's going to work its way into how we
11 dispense justice, hopefully. But it's
12 certainly something that is very annoying to
13 us.
14 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Something more
15 on the ground, judges -- Housing Court, last
16 year, in conjunction with you, we added five
17 new judgeships. But that doesn't seem
18 enough, as I think you would agree. We've
19 heard from legal service providers that
20 tenants can wait months to get on the
21 calendar. And that means additional months
22 living in potentially dangerous living
23 conditions. And it means that landlords
24 don't have a decision either.
137
1 What, could you tell us, is OCA doing
2 to, one, address ongoing staffing shortages
3 in Housing Court and, two, ensure that
4 tenants can seek timely justice in these
5 proceedings?
6 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS: So
7 we recognize that it's been difficult. We
8 approved tons of court attorney positions to
9 help facilitate resolutions of these cases.
10 They are hard to hire. People aren't
11 applying for them. So we're thinking of
12 other ways to get them in.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 Assembly.
15 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
16 And we have the chair of Judiciary,
17 Assemblymember Lavine, for his three-minute
18 follow-up.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thank you,
20 Chair Pretlow.
21 I have a compunction to try to correct
22 the record, and it's thanks to working for so
23 long with judges like you. But I do want the
24 record to reflect that this Legislature
138
1 passed, and Governor Hochul signed into law,
2 Section 539.20(1)(b)(xx) of the Criminal
3 Procedure Law providing that bail may be set
4 on any felony or Class A misdemeanor
5 involving harm to a person or property. And
6 harm includes theft or damage to property.
7 So now I have a question for you. Do
8 you imagine, do you think judges in general
9 believe or imagine that the pardoning of the
10 January 6th people who were convicted of
11 storming the United States Capitol adversely
12 affects public morale?
13 Oh, let me withdraw the question. And
14 thanks.
15 (Laughter.)
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I think we have
17 now run out of legislators who are entitled
18 to more time, so we are going to thank you
19 very much for being with us today. Please
20 extend our thank you to the entire judicial
21 system for the important work you do.
22 I think this moment in history reminds
23 all of us how crucial it is that we have a
24 Judiciary who actually understands their
139
1 obligation to uphold our laws and our
2 Constitution. I think there will be more
3 demands on you than ever.
4 So go and do good, and do good work.
5 Thank you very much.
6 CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE JUDGE ZAYAS:
7 Thanks. Thank you so much. It was an honor
8 to appear before you. Thank you much.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 And no one surround the judge as he's
11 leaving. If you need to, talk to him outside
12 the room, so that we can call up our next
13 panel, which is the New York State Commission
14 on Judicial Conduct and the New York State
15 Office of Indigent Legal Services.
16 (Pause.)
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And with a few
18 minutes to spare, I can still say good
19 morning. And I'm going to ask both Patricia
20 and Robert to just first introduce yourselves
21 so the video team knows which name to put
22 with which face when you testify.
23 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Happy to.
24 I'm Robert Tembeckjian. I'm the
140
1 administrator and counsel to the New York
2 State Commission on Judicial Conduct. And
3 it's nice to see you all.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 DIRECTOR WARTH: And I'm Patricia
6 Warth. I'm the director of the New York
7 State Office of Indigent Legal Services.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Shall we start with you, Robert?
10 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: If you
11 don't mind, I think Patricia would --
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Oh, she would
13 prefer? Whichever.
14 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: -- care to
15 go first, if that's -- if you don't mind.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. Patricia
17 first.
18 DIRECTOR WARTH: Good afternoon, I
19 think. I want to thank you for this
20 opportunity to talk to you about ILS's budget
21 request. But I also want to thank you for
22 your ongoing support of ILS as we work to
23 improve the quality of public defense in
24 New York, which includes both the
141
1 representation of people in criminal cases
2 and also the representation of parents in
3 Family Court matters.
4 I'm going to start with a story that
5 Andy Correia, the Wayne County Public
6 Defender, shared with the ILS Board this past
7 December. And it's a story that describes
8 how state funding has effectively transformed
9 or is transforming what was a broken criminal
10 defense system.
11 So last year a 46-year-old woman who I
12 will call Michele called the Wayne County
13 Public Defender's Office, and she explained
14 that when she was 17 years old, in 1995, she
15 was arrested for and charged with the
16 misdemeanor offense of endangering the
17 welfare of a child. She showed up at her
18 first court appearance, her arraignment, as
19 instructed. She of course couldn't afford an
20 attorney, and there was no public defender
21 there to represent her, so she was on her
22 own.
23 She pleaded guilty to the misdemeanor
24 offense, and the judge sentenced her to a
142
1 fine. She had no idea when she pleaded
2 guilty that this conviction, this sole
3 arrest, would mark her record permanently.
4 And it did. In the next 29 years Michele
5 lost several job opportunities because of
6 this misdemeanor conviction as well as a
7 small business loan.
8 So she had called the Wayne County
9 Public Defenders Office to see if there was
10 anything that could be done. Mr. Correia
11 managed to find the court record, which
12 corroborated what Michele told him. But as
13 he reviewed the record and listened to her
14 story, he realized that a grave mistake had
15 been made.
16 Because she was only 17 years old at
17 the time of the arrest, and because it was
18 her sole arrest, the law actually mandated
19 that Michele be adjudicated a youthful
20 offender, which would have vacated the
21 conviction and sealed the records. But
22 again, because she was without an attorney at
23 her first court appearance, nobody knew this.
24 Nobody reminded the judge of this. Nobody
143
1 made sure that the judge actually applied the
2 law.
3 Mr. Correia was able to work with the
4 district attorney and the judge, and
5 everybody agreed to vacate the conviction
6 against Michele and to dismiss the charges.
7 But nobody could give her back the 29 years
8 of opportunities that she had lost.
9 Now, Mr. Correia finished this story
10 by emphasizing emphatically that what
11 happened to Michele in 1995 would not happen
12 today in criminal cases, and that's because
13 of the state commitment to fully funding the
14 Hurrell-Harring settlement initiative
15 statewide.
16 It used to be the norm that people
17 were arraigned without defense counsel. Now
18 the norm is representation at arraignment.
19 Since 2017, over 420 new attorney positions
20 have been hired by public defender offices,
21 and over 600 specialized professionals,
22 providing the caseload relief that is
23 foundational to quality representation. And
24 Mr. Correia said now he has attorneys who
144
1 have access to the resources that they need
2 to provide quality representation in their
3 criminal cases.
4 And all of this is because of the
5 Hurrell-Harring settlement. And it's a story
6 of how the settlement and the state's
7 commitment to fully funding it has really
8 been effective in transforming public
9 criminal defense.
10 So it's with that as context that I
11 want to focus on ILS's two budget priorities.
12 And the first is the dire need to address the
13 crisis in Family Court representation. And
14 the second is the imperative of maintaining
15 the integrity of the Indigent Legal Services
16 Fund.
17 So I'm going to start with the first
18 imperative by saying simply that what
19 happened to Michele in 1995 in her criminal
20 case is happening today to low-income parents
21 in their Family Court cases. Why? It's
22 because the Hurrell-Harring settlement
23 applied only to public criminal defense. It
24 didn't include Family Court representation.
145
1 And family defense has been left behind.
2 So while the state is devoting almost
3 $274 million per year -- thanks to your
4 support -- to improved-quality public
5 criminal defense, there's been no comparable
6 investment to improving the quality of
7 representation provided to parents in
8 Family Court matters. And the data that ILS
9 collects from family defense providers across
10 the state reveals just how far behind
11 Family Court defense is.
12 Family Court attorneys, their weighted
13 caseloads are 85 percent higher than their
14 Criminal Court counterparts. And they have
15 access to less than two-fifths of the
16 resources and time to represent their clients
17 than their Criminal Court counterparts.
18 So what this means in practice is that
19 when parents have their first Family Court
20 appearance, low-income parents, they are
21 often most likely not represented by counsel.
22 Like Michele, they're alone.
23 And when eventually they are assigned
24 an attorney, the attorney that they are
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1 assigned often is working under overwhelming
2 caseloads with limited access to the
3 resources needed to provide quality
4 representation.
5 Children are needlessly taken from
6 their parents because of this poor-quality
7 representation. And because we know that
8 Family Court has a disparate impact on
9 communities of color, what this really
10 translates to is Black and brown families
11 being torn apart.
12 There's a solution to this, and we
13 know there's a solution to it because we're
14 implementing it right now in public criminal
15 defense. We need to extend and implement the
16 Hurrell-Harring settlement initiatives in
17 Family Court representation just as we have
18 done in Criminal Court representation. And
19 the foundational initiative is caseload
20 relief.
21 So ILS did some research over the last
22 couple of years, obtained data from family
23 defense providers from across the state, and
24 we've determined that it would cost
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1 $150 million, conservatively, in state
2 funding to provide caseload relief to
3 Family Court defense just as we have done to
4 criminal defense.
5 And we suggest that this $150 million,
6 that it be phased in over three years. So
7 that's why, in our budget request this year,
8 we're requesting $50 million for improved
9 quality Family Court representation.
10 Now, I know I don't have to persuade
11 you of the importance of this funding. It's
12 because of your support that last year's
13 final enacted budget included 19.5 million
14 for improved-quality Family Court
15 representation. And we are glad to see that
16 the Executive Budget proposal continues this
17 19.5 million for the State Budget.
18 But it's still not enough. It's far
19 short of the 150 million that is needed to
20 provide caseload relief across the state to
21 every family defense provider. And it leaves
22 many defense providers in your districts
23 behind. And, of course, families continue to
24 suffer.
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1 So what I'm asking of you today is
2 that in the next several weeks, as you're
3 working with the Executive on the final
4 enacted budget, that you make it a priority
5 to include in the final enacted budget the
6 $50 million in ILS's Aid to Localities budget
7 for improved quality Family Court
8 representation, with the goal of achieving
9 $150 million by fiscal year '27-'28.
10 Now, importantly, this funding needn't
11 come from the General Fund. You can do this
12 without jeopardizing balancing the
13 General Fund. In fact, the funding can and
14 should come from the Indigent Legal Services
15 Fund, which is a special fund that's
16 dedicated solely to improving the quality of
17 public defense.
18 But this is a segue to my second
19 imperative, which is maintaining the
20 integrity of the Indigent Legal Services
21 Fund.
22 In the Public Protection and
23 General Government Article 7 bill in the
24 Executive proposal, there's a proposal to
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1 transfer $234 million from the Indigent Legal
2 Services Fund to the General Fund. Now,
3 114 million of that is to partially reimburse
4 counties in New York City for the
5 expenditures that they incur for the 2003
6 enacted increase to assigned counsel rates.
7 And so from our perspective, that's related,
8 directly related to the purpose of the fund.
9 But the rest of the 120 million has no
10 public defense discernible relationship. And
11 so we're asking you, as you negotiate again
12 the final budget, the final enacted budget,
13 that you reduce this sweep from $234 million
14 to $114 million.
15 And I will talk to you a little bit
16 about the fund and what that means if I have
17 an opportunity to answer questions, but I see
18 my time is running out.
19 And thank you, and I look forward to
20 answering any questions that you have.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Good morning -- good afternoon,
23 Robert.
24 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Thank you.
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1 Again, my name is Robert Tembeckjian.
2 I'm the administrator and counsel to the
3 Commission on Judicial Conduct.
4 And as I have communicated to the
5 leadership of the various committees
6 represented here today, I'm in the
7 unaccustomed position here of not asking you
8 for additional money this year. Because I'm
9 happy to say that the Governor and the
10 Division of Budget -- led by someone very
11 well known to you all, Blake Washington --
12 and I agree on what the appropriate budget
13 for the commission ought to be in the coming
14 year, which is $9.33 million.
15 And I think the reason that we are in
16 agreement is because there is a recognition
17 by the Executive, as there has always been by
18 the Legislature, of the unique constitutional
19 role that the commission plays in really
20 advancing the twin pillars of public respect
21 for the courts.
22 And the first is a recognition that
23 the judiciary has to be independent. Judges
24 have to have the ability to call the cases as
151
1 they see them, without outside pressure,
2 without political pressure, and without any
3 other untoward influences.
4 At the same time, for public
5 confidence in the court system to sustain and
6 to grow, judges do have to be accountable for
7 when they transgress and violate the ethical
8 rules that bind them all.
9 It is an important aspect of what the
10 commission does in enhancing both the
11 independence of the judiciary and the
12 accountability of the judiciary to deal with
13 the extraordinary number of complaints that
14 we receive every year.
15 New York State has approximately 3300
16 judges, and last year we received
17 3,250-some-odd complaints against them.
18 Every one of them has to be analyzed,
19 interpreted, researched, and ultimately
20 decided, which is an enormous amount of work.
21 Even though, as you might imagine, that the
22 majority of those complaints don't really
23 allege that a judge violated the ethics
24 rules -- they are essentially disagreements
152
1 with the outcome of cases.
2 What that means, those nearly
3 3300 complaints against 3300 judges, is that
4 the commission absorbs a lot of the anger
5 that those who have proceedings in the courts
6 might otherwise direct to the judiciary. We
7 sort of deflect from the judiciary the
8 animosity, the anger, the upset that
9 litigants feel when they lose a case and
10 consider that they have no other recourse but
11 to make a complaint against the judge.
12 We are not an appellate court. We
13 don't pass judgment on the merits of a
14 ruling. And we explain to those 3300
15 complainants why it is that their complaints
16 really weren't alleging misconduct or other
17 inappropriate activity by the judge.
18 At the same time, last year we
19 publicly disciplined 2400 judges throughout
20 the state, 16 of them either removed from
21 office for egregious misconduct or agreed
22 publicly to resign with a commitment never to
23 return to the bench. Which is an extremely
24 important function that we perform.
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1 However, there are some judges who can
2 evade disciplinary responsibility for serious
3 misconduct by resigning and not agreeing
4 publicly never to return to the bench. And
5 the commission, because of the current state
6 of the Judiciary Law, has a very, very
7 limited time to complete its proceedings and
8 impose discipline, and the only discipline we
9 can impose after a judge resigns is removal
10 from office. And that's because under the
11 Constitution, removal disqualifies a judge
12 from ever returning to the bench.
13 But if a judge resigns early and has
14 not done something that was removable but
15 perhaps should result in censure or public
16 admonition, we have no authority to act. And
17 we are time-constrained. And this was
18 brought to significant public exposure just
19 in the last week, when we announced the
20 resignation of a judge, with a commitment
21 never to return, from a City Court in
22 Western New York who resigned 10 years ago
23 when his misconduct had been revealed. That
24 judge, who was an attorney, was ultimately
154
1 suspended from the practice of law for two
2 years, but because we didn't have time enough
3 to complete a removal proceeding which would
4 have disqualified him from ever coming back,
5 and because he did not stipulate publicly
6 with us to never coming back, he was in a
7 position to be reappointed to the bench,
8 which he was.
9 And then we renewed our proceeding and
10 after some motion practice in which the judge
11 attempted with effectively a laches argument
12 to say that we had no authority to remove him
13 from his conduct that had occurred in a prior
14 iteration of his judgeship. When he lost
15 that challenge, he entered into a stipulation
16 to leave and never to return.
17 Legislation that was introduced last
18 year by Senator Hoylman-Sigal and by
19 Assemblyman Lavine, which passed the Senate,
20 addressed that issue, and it would have
21 removed that artificial cap on our ability to
22 continue to discipline a judge who resigns in
23 an attempt to evade responsibility, knowing
24 that the clock is ticking very fast on us.
155
1 And I hope that the Legislature will
2 renew its interest in looking at that
3 legislation and that we might have, you know,
4 a full exposition of it and perhaps even have
5 it passed in both houses this year and sent
6 to the Governor.
7 In any case, we appreciate beyond
8 measure the degree to which the Legislature
9 and particularly the leaders of Finance and
10 Ways and Means and the two Judiciary
11 committees over the years have been forceful
12 advocates for the commission having the
13 resources to do the job that it needs. Those
14 3300 complaints this year set a record,
15 breaking last year's record of about 2900.
16 The more our work becomes known, the
17 more sophisticated the public becomes in
18 researching and determining how they can
19 follow up on their legitimate grievances, the
20 more work we are going to have to do.
21 And the fact that we dismiss the vast
22 majority of the complaints that come in to us
23 serves a public service in that it separates
24 the illegitimate criticism of a judge to the
156
1 legitimate criticism of a judge. And I think
2 it reinforces to the public that there is an
3 accountability process, one that, as some of
4 you know, I've written and advocated the
5 federal judiciary ought to adopt.
6 There is no federal equivalent to the
7 Commission on Judicial Conduct. And I think
8 if there were, it would go a long way toward
9 bolstering public confidence in the integrity
10 and the impartiality of the federal courts,
11 and it might have the beneficial effect of
12 countering what I consider to be the rather
13 reckless, broad-stroke criticisms of the
14 judiciary where disagreement with a judge's
15 decision leads to calls for mass impeachments
16 and replacements of judges, as if the courts
17 and the judiciary were not an independent and
18 a very important branch of government.
19 They need to be protected by the
20 Executive and the Legislature because they
21 don't have the power of the purse and they
22 don't have an enforcement mechanism. They
23 have only, as the Federalist Papers told us
24 way back at the adoption of our Constitution,
157
1 the integrity of their pronouncements.
2 We believe that we bolster public
3 confidence in the integrity of the judiciary
4 by holding accountable those who transgress
5 and giving the so-called clean bill of health
6 to those against whom complaints are made but
7 that are not meritorious.
8 And I think in explaining our reasons
9 to those who complain, we do important work
10 in bolstering the independence of the
11 critical third branch.
12 So thank you for your support, and
13 whatever questions you may have I'd be happy
14 to answer.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
16 I would like to start with Senator
17 Hoylman-Sigal or Senator Myrie? Senator
18 Hoylman-Sigal.
19 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Ms. Warth,
20 thank you again for being here.
21 You spoke about the negative impacts
22 in your testimony about a woman named Michele
23 who experienced going to criminal proceedings
24 without an attorney -- loss of job
158
1 opportunities, denied a loan, you said.
2 What negative impacts might parents
3 experience if they don't have an attorney at
4 a Family Court proceeding?
5 DIRECTOR WARTH: Loss of their
6 children. Which is, you know, from a child's
7 perspective and from many of our clients'
8 perspective, even more serious than the loss
9 of representation and sometimes even the loss
10 of liberty that can attach to a criminal
11 case.
12 And so, you know, when people are not
13 represented at their first court appearance,
14 they get confused, they sometimes say things
15 that, you know, they think will help them but
16 doesn't. They sometimes agree to things that
17 they think will help them that doesn't.
18 I mean, I think anybody here, if a
19 loved one was facing a court appearance,
20 whether it be criminal or family, you would
21 do everything you could to ensure that that
22 loved one had access to a lawyer at that
23 first court appearance. And we need to make
24 sure that low-income parents also have access
159
1 to lawyers.
2 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you.
3 Now, I understand that ILS is seeking,
4 as you say, $30 million in additional funding
5 for Family Court representation, which we
6 hope to support this year.
7 And the Executive Budget proposes,
8 though, sweeping $120 million from the
9 Indigent Legal Services Fund. But doesn't
10 that suggest that there's enough money in the
11 ILS Fund to support that $30 million request?
12 DIRECTOR WARTH: Exactly. You know,
13 the ILS Fund right now, because of
14 legislation -- thanks to you -- that was
15 enacted in 2017 to increase the fund's
16 revenue, that legislation is working. So the
17 fund is quite robust right now.
18 And it's robust enough to fully
19 support the Hurrell-Harring settlement
20 implementation across the state. It's fully
21 supporting partial reimbursement to counties
22 in New York City for the increased assigned
23 counsel rate. And you're right, the sweep
24 says it can do more.
160
1 But from our perspective, the more
2 really needs to be the imperative to improve
3 the quality of representation provided to
4 parents in Family Court representation. The
5 more shouldn't be using the ILS Fund as a
6 piggy bank to balance the general budget.
7 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Yup. I agree.
8 This Hurrell-Harring-style lawsuit is going
9 to force us -- it's going to force our hand.
10 I'm surprised it hasn't already.
11 Do you agree?
12 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I mean, the --
13 what teed up the Hurrell-Harring settlement
14 or the Hurrell-Harring lawsuit -- you know, a
15 commission and several reports over the years
16 bespeaking the poor-quality representation or
17 public criminal defense, and sort of not
18 enough action from the state on that -- I
19 mean, that exists today in Family Court
20 representation.
21 We have several commissions, several
22 reports that have repeatedly said the same
23 thing: We're not fulfilling our
24 constitutional and statutory obligation to
161
1 low-income parents in New York. And it's
2 ripe for a lawsuit.
3 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Just to pivot
4 to Mr. Tembeckjian, thank you again for being
5 here. And we've been really proud, I think
6 as a body and as a conference, to support
7 your efforts in the past.
8 I wanted to ask you about the case of
9 former judge Erin Gall. Judge Gall was
10 accused in 2022 of threatening in a profane
11 manner to shoot Black students at a high
12 school graduation party. They submitted
13 their resignation in December of 2024, ending
14 the case but also ensuring that they -- that
15 she could not be barred from returning to the
16 bench.
17 And you laid it out there in support
18 of our legislation that passed the Senate.
19 But do you believe that the case was
20 investigated and resolved in a timely manner?
21 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: It was
22 certainly thoroughly investigated, including
23 finding some witnesses that we only knew by
24 first name. There was a significant amount,
162
1 about 80 minutes, of police body cam video
2 that was critical in presenting the case and
3 proving the case.
4 What happened in the case of
5 Judge Gall is that after the commission
6 satisfied all of the due process requirements
7 of statute and rules and issued a removal
8 decision, was that she exercised her
9 statutory right to have the Court of Appeals
10 review the case. She filed a record, she
11 filed a brief. We filed our own brief in
12 response. She then filed a reply.
13 The court scheduled the matter for
14 argument in December, but then postponed it
15 when the judge resigned and ultimately was
16 able to prolong the process whereby she was
17 drawing a state salary, Supreme Court justice
18 salary, while pursuing her statutory right to
19 an appeal that she then gave up at the last
20 minute. That added about nine months to the
21 process that might otherwise have been
22 abbreviated.
23 The commission in that instance had
24 the time it needed to complete its proceeding
163
1 because she didn't resign until after we had
2 issued a removal order. Which meant that
3 when the Court of Appeals pro forma closed
4 the case and issued a removal order, it
5 constitutionally bars her from coming back to
6 office.
7 That's a different circumstance from
8 one in which she may have resigned before
9 asking the Court of Appeals to take
10 jurisdiction, in which case we would have had
11 no ability to force her into a permanent
12 departure.
13 But she can never come back to the
14 bench under New York law, and I think that is
15 absolutely the right result.
16 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you for
17 that.
18 And then I wanted to follow up on the
19 funding that we've successfully worked
20 together to achieve.
21 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Over the
22 many years, yes.
23 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Over the many
24 years, and in last year's budget in
164
1 particular.
2 What has that meant for you hiring
3 investigators and your work in general?
4 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: It has
5 meant that last year we were able to hire
6 three additional staff, a lawyer and
7 investigators. We intend to hire three more
8 this year. We're already in the process with
9 the funding that you provided last year, and
10 that will carry over with the Executive
11 recommendation this year.
12 Over the course of about 10 years, the
13 Legislature was responsible for putting
14 $3 million more into our budget than the
15 Executive had recommended. And I'm happy to
16 see that with the Governor this year and the
17 Budget Director, that they seemed to have
18 recognized this trend and pattern and rather
19 than recommend less than we've deemed was
20 appropriate or required, we were able to
21 agree on the number this year. And -- which
22 is why, as I said, at the outset, I'm in the
23 unusual position of not asking you to
24 supplement this year. You can actually spend
165
1 your time worrying about other entities,
2 including Ms. Warth's.
3 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Yeah. And I
4 think we should thank Governor Hochul and her
5 Budget Director --
6 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN:
7 Absolutely. Without question.
8 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: -- for
9 correcting, you know, decades of
10 underfunding.
11 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Changing
12 this trend, which you have reversed
13 repeatedly, and now I'm happy to see that the
14 Executive has as well recognized.
15 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: And it goes
16 without saying that what you do is integral
17 to the legitimacy of our judicial system. So
18 thank you for your work.
19 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Thank you
20 for recognizing it, Senator.
21 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: And thank you,
22 Madam Chair.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Assembly.
166
1 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assembly Chair
2 Lavine.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thank you. I
4 want to thank you both for the good work you
5 do for the people of the State of -- of our
6 State of New York.
7 Mr. Tembeckjian, have you ever had a
8 challenge to the enforcement of a judge's
9 agreement never to return to the bench?
10 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: It has
11 happened twice that judges who left office
12 with a commitment not to return then came
13 back. They broke the agreement, and we
14 resumed our proceedings against them.
15 Had we been able to remove them in the
16 first instance, they would have been
17 ineligible to return, under the Constitution.
18 But because they resigned and broke the
19 commitment, we -- actually, three times in
20 our history that has happened.
21 Not a lot, given that we have publicly
22 disciplined about 970 judges over the
23 48 years of the commission's existence. And
24 about 180 of those have been removals, and
167
1 about 140 have been resignations. So it's
2 not a large number.
3 But there are many who left office for
4 conduct that was less than removable that we
5 had absolutely no authority to pursue once
6 they left. And you would be in no position
7 to know that if they ran for reelection or if
8 a local official wanted to reappoint them to
9 a position. We would not be able to say
10 "This judge left under a cloud, may have been
11 censured, it's something that you ought to
12 consider" -- because we have no authority to
13 do that under the current law.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thank you.
15 And Ms. Warth, let me ask you this.
16 Fifty million will help provide services in
17 the Family Court. But given that
18 Family Court is one of the most difficult --
19 in fact, it probably is the most difficult of
20 all the courts for everyone, including
21 judges, litigants and lawyers -- how do you
22 imagine you're going to be able to assemble a
23 group of attorneys who are going to be ready,
24 willing and able and knowledgeable, also,
168
1 about practicing in our Family Courts?
2 DIRECTOR WARTH: That's a very good
3 question. The plan that we would -- we would
4 work with each county and New York City on a
5 plan that's specific to that particular
6 county and city needs. And specific to the
7 particular needs of the public defense
8 providers.
9 Recruiting attorneys is a challenge.
10 Many of the family defense providers are
11 learning lessons from their Criminal Court
12 counterparts on strategies for recruitment,
13 which includes a vibrant internship program
14 as well as a vibrant training program, a
15 student internship program and a law scholar
16 program.
17 And then we'd also allow and encourage
18 the providers to use the funding not only for
19 attorneys but for other professionals --
20 parent advocates, social workers, case
21 managers, investigators. All of those
22 services right now parent attorneys don't
23 have access to. So if they're doing the
24 work, they're doing it on their own.
169
1 And so if they can hire those
2 resources, those professionals, that in
3 itself is also caseload relief.
4 But, you know, I will be honest with
5 you and I will say our 150 million is a
6 conservative request.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: I don't know the
8 answer to this question. But how much money
9 is in that ILS Fund?
10 DIRECTOR WARTH: Right now? As of
11 December 31, 2024, there's about $957 million
12 in the ILS Fund.
13 Now, because our contracts to disburse
14 funding for the Hurrell-Harring settlement
15 initiative statewide are cost-reimbursement
16 contracts, that means that sometimes it takes
17 time for the money to come out of the fund.
18 Right? So there's often a significant gap in
19 time between when the county implements the
20 program, hires the staff, and spends the
21 money and then applies -- you know, submits a
22 claim to ILS to be reimbursed for it.
23 So, you know, I think that
24 $957 million could be a little misleading.
170
1 We are trying to figure out how much of that
2 is actually needed for -- to reimburse the
3 counties and New York City for what they've
4 already implemented.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thank you.
6 And Mr. Tembeckjian, you described the
7 case involving a judge whose name is Erin
8 Gall. And I ask you this. Do you think it
9 enhances public confidence in American law
10 when someone who's the subject of one of your
11 proceedings and then resigns is hired by a
12 county?
13 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Well, I
14 think --
15 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Which shall go
16 nameless.
17 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Don't you
18 want to withdraw that question too, as you
19 did to your last one to Judge Zayas?
20 (Laughter.)
21 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Even better,
22 Mr. Tembeckjian, let me do what the bad
23 lawyers do. Strike that.
24 (Laughter.)
171
1 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Senate?
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 Shelley Mayer.
4 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you,
5 Madam Chair.
6 I have a question for you, Ms. Warth.
7 On the -- your analysis of the extent
8 of representation in Family Court is based on
9 this weighted caseload model, which may have
10 lots of value for you in terms of the
11 funding. But from a litigant point of view,
12 what percentage of Family -- do you know what
13 percentage of Family Court litigants are not
14 represented by counsel?
15 Do you track it that way, as opposed
16 to the caseload demand on people who are
17 participating in this program?
18 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah, I wish we could
19 track that. And I would love to find a way
20 to do it. But the best way to think about it
21 is when Michele called the Wayne County
22 Public Defender Office, they didn't have a
23 file on her, right, because they never
24 represented her.
172
1 So it's sort of trying to figure out
2 how to know what you don't know. And, you
3 know, I would love to try to figure it out,
4 but we don't have a good estimate of how many
5 people should be having counsel at their
6 first Family Court appearance and don't.
7 Although we do know that in many types of
8 proceedings, that's -- that's the norm.
9 Nor do we know how many times people
10 are wrongfully being denied assignment of
11 counsel, which I think happens in
12 Family Court just because of the overwhelming
13 caseloads that attorneys currently have.
14 SENATOR MAYER: Well, can I just ask
15 respectfully why you don't -- why OCA or you
16 don't know how many individuals, for example,
17 in serious Family Court proceedings --
18 involving children, particularly -- there's
19 not an actual measurement of the number of
20 individuals who walk in and leave without
21 counsel?
22 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I mean, we
23 could circle back and talk to OCA about that.
24 I know that they've been trying to make sure
173
1 that they're collecting data on whether
2 people have counsel or not, and I don't know
3 how well that's going.
4 SENATOR MAYER: Okay. Just the last
5 thing is with respect to -- I appreciate the
6 focus on Family Court. Do you have an
7 analysis by county of the fund distribution
8 and how each county is doing? Not
9 considering your proposal for future
10 county-specific plans. Do you have that?
11 DIRECTOR WARTH: When we did our
12 analysis of the funding needed for caseload
13 relief, we did do that county by county. We
14 would want to get a little bit of updated
15 information from counties, because this was
16 two years ago. But yeah, we do have a good
17 estimate.
18 SENATOR MAYER: Okay, thank you.
19 Maybe you can share that.
20 DIRECTOR WARTH: (Nodding.)
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Assembly.
23 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
24 Walsh.
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1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: Hello, there.
2 Good afternoon. I really appreciated your
3 comments regarding improving representation
4 in Family Court, since that's where most of
5 my practice has been in recent years.
6 I wanted to ask you specifically about
7 what I understand to be a disparity in
8 representation. When there's an enforcement
9 action, when that's brought in Family Court,
10 the court may assign a public defender to
11 both parties, if they financially qualify, if
12 the enforcement action relates to an order of
13 protection or custody, but not support.
14 That's my understanding.
15 When there's a support enforcement
16 order, only the respondent or the alleged
17 debtor can get a public defender, not the
18 petitioner or the person that is owed the
19 support, allegedly owed the support.
20 That makes absolutely no sense to me,
21 and I just was wondering if you could give me
22 your thoughts on that.
23 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. You know, I
24 think there's been -- Judge Zayas talked
175
1 about this in his testimony, that we have the
2 right to counsel under County Law Article
3 18-B. So that's the right to counsel in
4 criminal cases and certain Family Court
5 cases.
6 But you're right, it's not all
7 Family Court cases. But the reality is, and
8 Judge Zayas said this, that's not enough.
9 you know, nobody has that expertise -- like
10 if I had a Family Court proceeding I probably
11 would retain counsel. And, you know, people
12 need that expertise, that assistance in
13 navigating the court system.
14 And so we would support efforts to
15 better fund the legal services that do
16 provide counsel when it isn't mandated under
17 County Law Article 18-B. So we agree with
18 Judge Zayas on that, the importance of
19 funding that.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: I appreciate
21 that. Because what I've heard from the
22 Family Court judges that I've spoken with is
23 it's particularly confusing because you can
24 have multiple petitions coming in from the
176
1 same family, some entitling you to public
2 defender representation, or 18-B, and some
3 not.
4 So it's -- and then how do you parse
5 that out as a judge to figure out when you
6 can and for what parts. I mean, if you're in
7 the middle of a hearing that's a hybrid, you
8 know, how do you separate that out? It's
9 just it's very -- it makes -- like I said, it
10 makes no sense to me at all.
11 And in an enforcement action involving
12 child support, if ever there is, you know, a
13 power disparity or the need for appropriate
14 counsel, it seems like certainly as far as
15 the other proceedings as well with custody
16 and with orders of protection, but also with
17 support. So I appreciate your comments very
18 much.
19 Thank you. That's all I've got.
20 DIRECTOR WARTH: I'll also briefly
21 add, you know, everything you're saying is
22 true. But if we're not even doing the
23 baseline, which we're not right now, we're
24 not even providing adequate representation
177
1 where it's statutorily and constitutionally
2 required.
3 So while I agree with everything
4 you're saying, I hope we also focus on at
5 least achieving quality representation where
6 the law requires that we have it.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: Well, I do think
8 it was -- it's -- speaking as an attorney for
9 the child in part of my practice, I mean, I
10 would say that at least increasing that
11 amount per hour did help. It's still very
12 hard, you know, when the matrimonial bar can
13 command $350 or $400 an hour for a
14 matrimonial case where they're doing -- in my
15 neck of the woods. I think that, you know,
16 150 an hour for an AFC who has to go through
17 all that additional paperwork -- it's still
18 hard to fill the panel, but at least it's
19 doing -- it did some good, I think, by
20 doubling it, so.
21 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah, we're hearing
22 from providers that it has led to a marginal
23 uptick in the number of attorneys on the
24 panel.
178
1 They are concerned, of course, that
2 there's nothing in the statute that allows
3 for a periodic increase. And so that does
4 cause some people to hesitate to join a panel
5 if they know that their pay's going to be
6 flat for a long time. And the last time it
7 was flat for almost 20 years.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: That's right.
9 That's right. We'll, we're tying a lot of
10 other things to inflation, so maybe that
11 ought to be too. Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
13 Other Senators that I don't see on my
14 list? Then there's me.
15 Hi. So Robert, I think that this
16 Legislature knows how important it is to
17 assure that we have a judiciary that knows
18 their jobs and does their jobs well. So just
19 I think on behalf of everyone, what you do in
20 this commission as an independent commission
21 is so important.
22 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Even people who
24 don't understand that you're out there.
179
1 So I was trying to do a little pitch.
2 We hope that every judge in every courtroom
3 is handling their jobs superbly. But if
4 you're in a courtroom and you think
5 something's amiss, you can file a complaint
6 with the commission. This is like a
7 commercial for you. I'm not even asking you
8 a question.
9 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And sometimes
11 lawyers get very nervous about filing a
12 commission complaint even if they do also
13 feel something went wrong, because they need
14 to continue to, you know, work in that
15 courtroom.
16 So again, Part 2 of my commercial,
17 people can file the complaints themselves.
18 They don't need their lawyer to file. Is
19 that correct?
20 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: That's
21 absolutely correct.
22 And the commission also has the
23 authority in law to commence investigations
24 on its own motion, based on information that
180
1 comes to it from sometimes anonymous sources,
2 sometimes from information that we come
3 across in -- in investigating one complaint,
4 we might come across indications of
5 misconduct on another matter, and we have the
6 authority to initiate those inquiries on our
7 own.
8 So individuals can, even anonymously,
9 if they provide credible information to us to
10 give us a basis to go forward, we can take
11 those complaints and move with them.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And because,
13 again, our institutions only work if the
14 people believe they have confidence in them,
15 there was an article this morning that there
16 was some kind of model setup for district
17 attorneys to review themselves on cases that
18 I guess people say didn't go correctly, but
19 the results of that model, at least I guess
20 for the counties outside of New York City, is
21 they never reverse themselves.
22 So do we need some kind of equivalent
23 commission to what you have for district
24 attorneys?
181
1 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Well,
2 there actually is one, the Commission on
3 Prosecutorial Conduct, which is just starting
4 up now. And they have modeled their rules
5 based on ours because when the Legislature
6 created it, they modeled the statute, with
7 some obvious and significant differences,
8 based on the Judicial Conduct Commission
9 model.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I wasn't sure I
11 remembered that right.
12 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: But there
13 is an entity that is now established and
14 getting underway. And I think there is a --
15 if I'm not mistaken, a $3 million
16 appropriation in the Executive Budget for
17 that commission to get started.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. So we need
19 to all be watching that.
20 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Right.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
22 much.
23 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: But I
24 agree with you, self-regulation almost never
182
1 works. And one of the reasons why the
2 Judicial Conduct Commission was created in
3 the first place, first as a temporary
4 commission by the Legislature in 1974, is
5 because judicial discipline had been the sole
6 and exclusive province of the judiciary. And
7 in the 25 years before our commission was
8 created, there had only been five complaints
9 investigated against judges. And we know,
10 just as a statistical certainty, that there
11 was more misconduct than that being
12 committed.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
14 much. That's all the time I need.
15 Assembly?
16 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
17 Palmesano.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thank you.
19 My question is for Ms. Warth.
20 Just one question. I'm curious, I
21 believe the Governor has proposed to maintain
22 $92 million for the Assigned Counsel Program.
23 I understand that covers --
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Can you speak up
183
1 a little so we can hear you?
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes,
3 absolutely I can do that, happy to do that.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Sorry about
6 that.
7 The Governor has proposed to maintain
8 $92 million for the Assigned Counsel Program,
9 is my understanding. I understand that
10 covers 50 percent of the county costs. From
11 your perspective, and what you understand, is
12 that enough to meet the need the counties
13 have, especially in our upstate rural areas?
14 DIRECTOR WARTH: So it covers
15 50 percent of the increase, so not 50 percent
16 of the full cost of the assigned counsel
17 rates.
18 And we have been monitoring what --
19 you know, we set up a streamless {sic}
20 process for counties in New York City to
21 claim on that, and they have been claiming on
22 that.
23 So far the 92 million has been more
24 than enough to fully claim out or to fully
184
1 pay out those reimbursements. It's a little
2 tricky because the vouchers that we're paying
3 out on right now, some of them are cases that
4 existed prior to the rate increase. So
5 they're -- you know, they're mixed-cost, they
6 don't include the full increase.
7 We anticipate that probably in a year
8 or two, based on the information we're
9 collecting, we'll be able to tell you exactly
10 how much it would cost to fully cover both
11 the partial reimbursement for the rate
12 increase, but also the full reimbursement.
13 Because we've always believed that the state
14 should fully fund the full rate increase, not
15 just 50 percent of it.
16 And based on what we're seeing so far,
17 my best guess is that there will be enough
18 from the Indigent Legal Services Fund -- if
19 it isn't used to balance the General Fund --
20 to reimburse counties for the full rate
21 increase.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Just a quick
23 follow-up on that, based on what you just
24 said.
185
1 Do you know what the outstanding
2 difference in how much our counties are
3 paying and how much is the state? You know,
4 how much the counties are responsible to pay
5 now for the program, the outstanding amount?
6 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah, it's different
7 depending on misdemeanors and felonies. And
8 I can send you that number as a follow-up. I
9 don't have it off the top of my head right
10 now, and it would require me to do quick math
11 and I'm really bad at math.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: All right,
13 thank you. Thank you very much.
14 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
15 Burdick.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you both,
17 and thank you for your testimony.
18 And this is actually a question for
19 Patricia Warth.
20 I thank you for the work that you do.
21 Not an easy task. And so do I understand
22 correctly that maintaining the level of
23 funding that's in the Executive Budget
24 suffices? I mean, it sounds to me as though
186
1 we need hundreds of millions of dollars more.
2 I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that.
3 DIRECTOR WARTH: So our Aid to
4 Localities budget covers basically four basic
5 programs. The settlement program, what the
6 Executive proposed in their budget is what we
7 requested. So maintaining that is fine --
8 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: The other
9 question that I have pertains to the
10 transfer --
11 DIRECTOR WARTH: Can I just finish,
12 though? But what the Governor has proposed
13 for the Family Court is not sufficient. So
14 that's where we're requesting -- the
15 Governor's proposed 19.5 million, or the
16 Executive proposed 19.5 million. We're
17 requesting 50 million.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Okay.
19 Other question. You referred to a
20 transfer of funds out of the Indigent Legal
21 Fund into the General Fund. I'll be honest
22 with you that I have concerns about that,
23 because it might not end up where we'd like
24 it to go. And I'm wondering if you have any
187
1 thoughts about that.
2 DIRECTOR WARTH: We oppose it. We
3 believe --
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Oh, you do
5 oppose it.
6 DIRECTOR WARTH: The Indigent -- yeah.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: That's all I
8 needed to know.
9 Great, thank you. That's all I have.
10 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
11 Simon.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
13 Ms. Warth, I wanted to follow up on
14 that line of questioning, actually.
15 One question is, has the Governor
16 swept funds from Indigent Legal Services in
17 the past to the general budget?
18 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yes, until --
19 there's -- there's a history of a small
20 amount of sweeping. And then when the
21 settlement was -- you know, when the
22 Hurrell-Harring litigation was settled and
23 there was a bigger state commitment to
24 improved-quality representation, that stopped
188
1 for several years.
2 This current-year budget, the budget
3 that was enacted last year, there was
4 authorization to transfer 234 million from
5 the Indigent Legal Services Fund to the
6 General Fund. And again, 114 million is
7 related to assigned counsel rates.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Right.
9 DIRECTOR WARTH: That transfer hasn't
10 happened yet. And typically it doesn't
11 happen until March. So we'll know more in
12 March whether the Executive takes full
13 advantage of that transfer authority.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: I understand
15 that the Governor -- she also swept money --
16 we kept something like 50 million in, but she
17 swept another 50 million or something out of
18 IOLA.
19 And so my question is -- and that was
20 last year. But has agreed, apparently, this
21 year not to do that.
22 DIRECTOR WARTH: That's correct.
23 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: And whether it's
24 now coming out of your hide. Do you have --
189
1 I'm --
2 DIRECTOR WARTH: I didn't hear the end
3 of that, whether --
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Whether it's
5 coming out of your hide, the sweeping.
6 Because she's agreed not to do that with IOLA
7 funds.
8 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I think, you
9 know, there was litigation over the transfer
10 of the IOLA fund, and that fund is slightly
11 different from our fund in that it's a
12 fiduciary fund.
13 I still think, though, that, you know,
14 the state has a constitutional duty for
15 quality public defense. And there's a fund
16 in order for the state to exercise, to
17 implement that duty, and it's deeply
18 concerning if funding is taken from that fund
19 when it's not related to the work of public
20 defense.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN SIMON: Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
23 Giglio.
24 Assemblywoman Kelles.
190
1 Assemblywoman Walker.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: (Mic problem;
3 inaudible.) I feel like it's like special
4 recognition, you know. They don't accept a
5 Black woman's thumbprint like, you know --
6 (gesturing).
7 (Laughter.)
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Okay. Thank
9 you so much for your testimony.
10 I was just wondering, typically in a
11 Criminal Court proceeding, after the
12 defendant makes his -- takes a plea and the
13 plea allocution is conducted, the judge
14 usually has a statement that is made with
15 respect to immigration status. Can you tell
16 me what that is and what effect that may have
17 on the present state of immigration affairs
18 in our country.
19 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I mean, the
20 idea of the judge's statement is to ensure
21 that every person understands that if they
22 were not born in the United States, there may
23 be immigration consequences to their
24 conviction.
191
1 And that they -- there's a
2 Supreme Court case on this that requires
3 attorneys to advise their clients as to the
4 immigration consequences of their involvement
5 in a criminal case and a conviction.
6 We -- in New York, we've used some of
7 the Indigent Legal Services funds to disburse
8 funding, competitive funds, to establish a
9 network of six Regional Immigration
10 Assistance Centers across the state so that
11 attorneys have a place to go where they can
12 get expertise on the intersection of criminal
13 and immigration law to do their duty to
14 advise clients as to the immigration
15 consequences of their involvement in the
16 criminal legal system. And we're also
17 finding consequences as to involvement in the
18 Family Court systems as well.
19 So our Regional Immigration Assistance
20 Centers provide that service to attorneys to
21 make sure that their clients know. And then
22 they go a step further and often help the
23 attorneys fashion a disposition that can
24 ameliorate or at least diminish these
192
1 immigration consequences.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you.
3 And so is the practice that many of
4 the judges take in terms of advising people,
5 you know, about their potential criminal
6 effect, or affect, is that a statewide
7 practice or -- I mean, I know I see it in
8 New York City, but I'm not sure how it
9 happens across the state.
10 DIRECTOR WARTH: My understanding is
11 that it is a statewide practice. And I think
12 it's important that judges do that. But I
13 think it's more important that the person's
14 attorney is doing that. And that even
15 before --
16 (Time clock sounds.)
17 DIRECTOR WARTH: I'll follow up with
18 you after.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
21 Morinello.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: This is
23 directed to Ms. Warth. And it's a little
24 more on clarification dealing with
193
1 Family Court, and I'm going to focus.
2 What specific type of cases can you
3 assign counsel in Family Court?
4 DIRECTOR WARTH: So there's the
5 Family Court Act that requires assignment of
6 counsel in any case involving neglect,
7 allegations of neglect, abuse, or termination
8 of parental rights. Custody. There's also
9 some other matters -- I don't have the full
10 list in front of me, and I can follow up with
11 you on it.
12 But the main ones are what we call the
13 child welfare matters where parents are at
14 risk of losing their child. And then custody
15 accounts for a big percentage of our defense
16 providers' caseload in Family Court cases.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Do you oversee
18 the attorney for the children?
19 DIRECTOR WARTH: No, that is actually
20 housed in the Unified Court System.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Okay. When it
22 comes to your Family Court attorneys, or
23 attorneys assigned to Family Court, what
24 specific training requirements are there?
194
1 Because it is a specialty.
2 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yes. I mean, there's
3 what is currently required and what should be
4 required.
5 (Laughter.)
6 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Okay.
7 DIRECTOR WARTH: And part of the
8 reason why we're asking for more funding for
9 improved-quality representation is because
10 there's a significant gap right now between
11 the training attorneys are getting and the
12 training that they should be getting.
13 But it really depends on the
14 particular office for which they work or the
15 particular assigned counsel program.
16 But I would say that I think that's an
17 important question because I think far too
18 many attorneys don't have access to the
19 training that they need and that they're
20 actually yearning for, because of the lack of
21 funding.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: The reason I
23 asked the question is I get many inquiries
24 and complaints about their attorneys just not
195
1 speaking up, not showing up. And so what
2 type of -- other than Mr. Tembeckjian's
3 division, okay, and I'll call it a
4 division -- that I never had to use in
5 14 years as a participant -- what type of a
6 follow-up or checks and balances do you have?
7 Because that seems to be one of the biggest
8 issues.
9 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I mean, I
10 think that the first step is making sure that
11 attorneys have the resources that they need.
12 And, you know, Gerry Spence, he's a
13 famous criminal defense lawyer, once famously
14 said no attorney can provide competent
15 representation with overwhelming caseloads.
16 And so we have to first address that
17 problem. But in addressing that problem, we
18 work with each county and provider on a plan.
19 And so we do follow up with them on
20 implementation of the plan to ensure that the
21 funding is being spent as intended, for
22 improved-quality representation. And as
23 Mr. Correia's story shows, it's working in
24 Criminal Court. We need to replicate it in
196
1 Family Court.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: We know
3 that we mentioned abuse, neglect, et cetera.
4 And earlier today, I'm not sure whether you
5 were here, but we spoke about problem-solving
6 courts.
7 DIRECTOR WARTH: Right.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Do you see any
9 merit to maybe try and massage
10 problem-solving courts into some of the
11 Family Court situations? Because I would
12 believe that a lot of these have to do with
13 underlying drug, alcohol, or other -- or
14 mental health issues that are creating this.
15 So I'm just curious. And if you
16 haven't thought about it, at some point maybe
17 we can discuss that need.
18 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I think that
19 is worth discussing.
20 The way it currently works is that the
21 county investigating agency is supposed to
22 work with the parent on that problem-solving
23 stuff. But the problem is is that
24 investigating agency is also prosecuting the
197
1 parent. Right? And so there's a lack of
2 trust and investment in those programs.
3 I should also say that often the
4 underlying program isn't drugs, isn't
5 mental health -- it's poverty. And far too
6 many of our parents are hauled into court
7 because of judgments made about them, because
8 they're doing the best they can with not
9 enough money. And so sometimes I think we
10 really have to reevaluate what do we consider
11 neglect, what do we consider abuse. And
12 poverty shouldn't be it.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: I think that
14 an adequate number of attorneys, with
15 adequate training, could intercede on that --
16 DIRECTOR WARTH: Exactly.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: -- and assist
18 in moving through that. So --
19 DIRECTOR WARTH: Exactly.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Thank you. My
21 time's just about up. But I do appreciate
22 the answers. Thank you.
23 DIRECTOR WARTH: Thank you.
24 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
198
1 Giglio.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Thank you,
3 Chair.
4 And thank you for being here today.
5 So I'm being told from judges in
6 Suffolk County that Legal Service Society is
7 taking everyone without properly screening
8 them. And therefore a lot of the judges have
9 to reassign the cases to 18-B, which is
10 taking away from criminal representation.
11 So what are you doing? Because they
12 have to -- there is a conflict of interest
13 between the attorney from the Legal Aid
14 Society to represent -- because they
15 represented a witness or a complainant in the
16 past, and so those cases automatically get
17 kicked to 18-B, which is taking away services
18 from criminal cases.
19 So what can you say about the
20 screening process to make sure that people
21 are eligible, number one, and to also make
22 sure in Suffolk County, which is a big
23 county, that the attorneys that are assigned
24 to Legal Aid Society are not as conflicted.
199
1 Is there a tracking system? Are you checking
2 to see how many cases are getting kicked to
3 18-B?
4 DIRECTOR WARTH: Right. I mean, so we
5 don't micromanage the providers, but I hear
6 what you're saying.
7 We did, pursuant to the
8 Hurrell-Harring settlement, we were required
9 to establish and promulgate guidelines for
10 determining financial eligibility for
11 assignment of counsel. And so -- and we
12 updated our guidelines a few years ago to
13 apply, you know, both to criminal cases and
14 to Family Court representation, under
15 County Law 18-B.
16 And the Office of Court Administration
17 actually issued rules from the Chief Judge
18 that fully incorporate our guidelines into
19 Family Court proceedings.
20 And so, you know, to our
21 understanding -- and we do ask our providers
22 about compliance with the guidelines and
23 ensuring we've trained providers, we've
24 trained judges on the guidelines. And so we
200
1 are trying to follow up to ensure that these
2 guidelines are followed in determining
3 financial eligibility for assignment of
4 counsel under County Law 18-B.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: So do you have
6 statistics on the number of attorneys that
7 are representing people on behalf of Legal
8 Aid Society that are actually conflicted, how
9 many conflicts there are, and why these cases
10 are getting pushed off to 18-B?
11 DIRECTOR WARTH: Right. I mean, it's
12 up to every attorney to, you know, before
13 accepting a case to determine if there's a
14 conflict. And ethically, attorneys can't
15 take cases if there's a conflict.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: So you don't
17 have a record as to how many cases are
18 getting --
19 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah, we haven't
20 asked that information at this point on, you
21 know, how many are getting -- yeah. I mean,
22 I don't think we're collecting that
23 information at this point.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Okay. Because
201
1 that might save you some money.
2 But thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
4 Kelles.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: One quick
6 question. When we did discovery reforms, we
7 gave extra funding to DAs to be able to
8 handle the increased amount of -- the smaller
9 amount of time, increased amount of data.
10 How much money was given to --
11 DIRECTOR WARTH: So the money for
12 defense discovery reform actually does not
13 flow through ILS, but it's flowing through
14 the Division of Criminal Justice Services.
15 And so I think it matched the prosecution.
16 So 40 million for discovery reform,
17 and then an additional 40 million for -- you
18 know, for improved quality generally.
19 I would urge you -- the legal aid
20 society submitted written testimony --
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I have it.
22 DIRECTOR WARTH: They did a wonderful
23 job describing what they're doing with that
24 funding.
202
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Will do. Will
2 do. And my apologies.
3 You mentioned earlier that there was a
4 sweep that you wanted to decrease to a
5 certain amount but you haven't had a chance
6 to explain what the decrease -- at the end of
7 your testimony. Do you recall what I was
8 asking -- what you were saying?
9 DIRECTOR WARTH: So part of the
10 Public -- the proposed Public Protection and
11 General Government Article 7 bill would be
12 to -- a proposal to give authority to the
13 state to transfer $234 million from the
14 Indigent Legal Services Fund, which right now
15 is fully supporting the Hurrell-Harring
16 settlement, the partial reimbursement to the
17 counties for the ACP rates, and also we want
18 it to support improved quality Family Court
19 representation.
20 But to sweep 234 million of that into
21 the General Fund -- now, 114 million of that
22 we say is legitimate. It is to offset the
23 costs of the state reimbursing -- partially
24 reimbursing counties --
203
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: But the rest
2 would decrease the quality of the services.
3 DIRECTOR WARTH: Yeah. I mean --
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I got you.
5 DIRECTOR WARTH: -- the fund needs to
6 be used for --
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Of course. Of
8 course. And that funds -- that's what's
9 necessary to do the job. Thank you so much.
10 A question in my last minute. I'm --
11 if you have cases where a judge -- for cases
12 that are consistently bail eligible --
13 continually dismisses them and releases on
14 recognizance without consideration of bail,
15 is that at some point considered an ethics
16 issue?
17 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Well, the
18 rules on judicial conduct require, among
19 other things, that a judge be faithful to the
20 law, be competent in the law. And we have
21 had some disciplinary cases in our history in
22 which judges who were demonstrating a lack of
23 competence in the law or a willful failure to
24 abide by the law, can be publicly
204
1 disciplined.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Okay. I just
3 wanted to make sure. Because I am hearing of
4 cases over and over and over and over again
5 being dismissed that 100 percent are
6 bail-eligible and being used, of course, then
7 in the public rhetoric as -- as evidence that
8 bail reform did not work. And it's
9 frustrating. Yeah, thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: All right, I
11 believe that we have all completed the
12 questions we're allowed to ask. So I want to
13 thank you both very much for your testimony
14 today and for your work on behalf of the
15 people of New York State. And I will let you
16 be free, so to speak.
17 DIRECTOR WARTH: Thank you.
18 ADMINISTRATOR TEMBECKJIAN: Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: It's a bad pun,
20 given what you people do for a living.
21 Sorry.
22 So our next panel we have the New York
23 State Division of Criminal Justice Services,
24 the New York State Department of Corrections
205
1 and Community Supervision, the New York State
2 Division of State Police.
3 But we have a replacement for
4 Rossana Rosado, the commissioner of
5 Criminal Justice Services. Apparently she is
6 ill, so she's being replaced by her executive
7 deputy commissioner, Joseph Popcun.
8 Good afternoon, gentlemen. We're
9 going to ask you each just first to introduce
10 yourselves so that the video folks know whose
11 name to put under what picture. And then
12 we'll start with the testimony.
13 Please.
14 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Joseph
15 Popcun, executive deputy commissioner of
16 DCJS.
17 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
18 Daniel Martuscello, commissioner, Department
19 of Corrections and Community Supervision.
20 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Steven G.
21 James, superintendent, New York State Police.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. So
23 why don't we just go straight down that line
24 and start with Joseph, the executive deputy
206
1 commissioner.
2 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Thank you
3 very much.
4 Good afternoon, Chairs Krueger and
5 Pretlow, legislative fiscal committee
6 members, and other distinguished members of
7 the Legislature. I am Joe Popcun, executive
8 deputy commissioner of DCJS. Thank you for
9 the opportunity to discuss Governor Kathy
10 Hochul's fiscal year '25-'26 budget for DCJS.
11 Commissioner Rossana Rosado regrets
12 not being able to be here today with you, but
13 sends her sincere appreciation for your
14 continued support and partnership.
15 Today marks the commissioner's and my
16 fourth budget testimony for this exceptional
17 agency. From crime prevention to community
18 reentry, DCJS helps our law enforcement and
19 community partners keep New Yorkers safe and
20 ensure a justice system that works for all.
21 While we've used the term
22 multifunction support agency in the past,
23 what we really mean is that we convene,
24 facilitate and support all stakeholders with
207
1 our resources, expertise and information. It
2 is our privilege and power to help those who
3 directly help others.
4 With the support of Governor Hochul
5 and the State Legislature, we have navigated
6 a series of crises -- the pandemic, social
7 unrest, economic anxiety, violent extremism,
8 and a surge in shootings. Together we answer
9 the call to serve New Yorkers by leveraging
10 our largest ever $850 million budget and
11 growing workforce to deliver proven
12 strategies that uproot crime and tend to its
13 ripple effects.
14 Last year alone we delivered record
15 funding through nearly 3900 grants; helped
16 reduce gun violence through GIVE, our Gun
17 Involved Violence Elimination initiative;
18 answered 130,000 requests for assistance from
19 hundreds of law enforcement agencies through
20 our 11 Crime Analysis Centers; strengthened
21 10 communities through Project RISE -- we
22 love acronyms -- Respond, Invest, Sustain and
23 Empower; launched a new $35 million program,
24 STRIVE, Statewide Targeted Reductions in
208
1 Intimate Partner Violence; and equipped
2 378 local law enforcement agencies with
3 $127 million in new technology to better
4 prevent and solve crime.
5 We also strengthened our partnership
6 between the state's office of Gun Violence
7 Prevention and our nationally recognized SNUG
8 outreach program. This partnership now
9 leverages the best of both public health and
10 public safety. In 14 communities, SNUG teams
11 work to interrupt the cycle of violence by
12 engaging young people and connecting them
13 with the support they need.
14 Looking back on the last three years,
15 the DCJS story is one of humanity and a
16 holistic focus on the work of justice and
17 safety. It has taken grit, grace and a great
18 deal of resources, but it is working.
19 We have seen the justice system
20 recover from the pandemic disruptions, crime
21 drop, and gun violence plummet to record
22 lows. Reported crime, for the first nine
23 months of 2024, declined 8 percent outside of
24 New York City, with decreases in both violent
209
1 and property crime, compared to the prior
2 year.
3 In New York City, overall reported
4 crime remained flat through September of last
5 year compared to 2023.
6 In our GIVE jurisdictions, which as
7 you know, is 90 percent of the violent crime
8 by firearm outside of New York City, we saw
9 the fewest shootings on record last year, a
10 53 percent decrease from the peak in 2021.
11 In New York City, there were 903 shootings
12 last year, a 42 percent decrease from the
13 2021 peak.
14 By cutting gun violence nearly in half
15 throughout the entire state, there were
16 1,333 fewer people shot, and 251 fewer lives
17 lost in 2024 compared to where we were just
18 three years ago. This is remarkable
19 progress.
20 As proud as I am that DCJS continues
21 its wide-ranging and far-reaching efforts to
22 build safe and strong communities, we still
23 have more work to do. The Governor's budget
24 again places public safety at the forefront,
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1 featuring initiatives and investments in DCJS
2 to protect and serve all New Yorkers.
3 This budget expands support for law
4 enforcement analysis and intelligence
5 sharing, secures additional funding for law
6 enforcement technology and equipment,
7 increases the resources available for
8 evidence-based policing strategies, doubles
9 funding for rape crisis and sexual assault
10 programs, reforms discovery, supports safe
11 and vibrant communities in the Bronx and
12 beyond, and increases the police presence on
13 the New York City subways.
14 As I think about this year's budget,
15 and particularly this moment in time, two
16 questions come to mind. How do we work
17 together to create a more lasting peace,
18 build community and promote opportunity, and
19 how do we make sure that people both feel
20 safe and are safe where they live, work and
21 learn?
22 At DCJS our answer is simple in words
23 but supreme in action: We must rededicate
24 ourselves to justice and heed the call to act
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1 in service and betterment of others. As we
2 renew our commitment to justice, we must
3 embrace our shared humanity, doing what is
4 right, tending to those in need, healing
5 those in pain, and making communities whole.
6 The Governor's proposed budget
7 balances safety with fairness and enforcement
8 with prevention. With your support, it will
9 allow DCJS to continue to answer the call,
10 ensuring safer neighborhoods, stronger
11 partnerships, and a fair and equal justice
12 system. This budget empowers us to provide
13 essential resources, training and assistance
14 that local partners rely upon every day.
15 I want to express my sincerest
16 appreciation to Governor Hochul and
17 Commissioner Rosado for their unwavering
18 leadership on public safety. I want to
19 extend my gratitude to the thousands of
20 on-the-ground partners who are doing the work
21 and truly changing lives.
22 I also want to recognize the
23 exceptional DCJS team for their dedication
24 and innovation. Their commitment has
212
1 strengthened our mission and created a top
2 workplace that values every team member.
3 Finally, our work is only possible
4 because of the ongoing support we receive
5 from the State Legislature and from members
6 who represent every corner of this great
7 state.
8 Thank you for your service and your
9 time today. I look forward to answering your
10 questions.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 DOCCS commissioner.
13 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Good
14 afternoon, Chair Krueger, Chair Pretlow, and
15 other distinguished members of the
16 Legislature. I am Daniel Martuscello,
17 commissioner for the Department of
18 Corrections and Community Supervision. It is
19 my honor to discuss the Governor's Executive
20 Budget plan as it relates to DOCCS.
21 Let me begin by expressing my deepest
22 sympathies to the family of Robert Brooks,
23 who was tragically and senselessly murdered
24 at Marcy Correctional Facility. I've watched
213
1 the videos of the assault, each time feeling
2 the same emotions that I imagine all
3 New Yorkers feel -- anger, disgust, and
4 disappointment. The actions of those staff
5 members were repugnant and do not represent
6 our values as an agency. Individuals go to
7 prison as punishment, not for punishment, and
8 I will not normalize violence within our
9 system.
10 Upon learning of these horrendous
11 actions, I immediately ordered an
12 investigation and made criminal referrals to
13 external investigatory agencies. Thanks to
14 our investigators, we were able to obtain and
15 preserve the video of this event that will be
16 crucial evidence in the disciplinary and
17 criminal proceedings. I am committed to
18 ensuring that justice is served for the
19 Brooks family and that we achieve meaningful
20 reform.
21 I am thankful to Governor Hochul for
22 her swift and aggressive response to this
23 incident. The Governor announced several
24 actions that we are in the process of
214
1 implementing, including termination of all
2 involved staff members, appointment of a new
3 superintendent, funding for fixed cameras and
4 body-worn cameras, expansion of our Office of
5 Special Investigations to proactively
6 identify trends and mitigate risks, and
7 heightened monitoring from external
8 stakeholders to improve culture and
9 accountability within the system.
10 At my direction, we've expanded our
11 body-worn camera policy, requiring activation
12 any time security staff are interacting with
13 the population. I've increased management
14 rotations outside of normal business hours,
15 expanded the presence of our investigators
16 within facilities, and introduced a
17 whistleblower policy to ensure staff feel
18 safe to report misconduct without fear of
19 retaliation.
20 We are conducting an independent
21 review of Marcy and other facilities,
22 introducing new and innovative use of force
23 trainings, and evaluating our culture across
24 the agency. I am committed to
215
1 transformational reform to ensure that our
2 facilities are operated safely, humanely, and
3 effectively.
4 The fiscal year 2026 Executive Budget
5 provides DOCCS with the resources it needs to
6 carry out its mission, including new
7 appropriations to meet our goals. These
8 include:
9 • $400 million to install fixed camera
10 systems in every correctional facility;
11 • $18.4 million to procure and deploy
12 body-worn cameras; and
13 • $7.2 million to expand and
14 restructure OSI, including a new Public
15 Integrity Division and Medical Review Team
16 focused on staff misconduct and use of force.
17 I am a firm believer in the value of
18 cameras in a correctional setting. Cameras
19 are highly effective at enhancing
20 accountability and professionalism and are
21 valuable assets when conducting
22 investigations. The resources advanced by
23 the Governor in her budget plan will greatly
24 improve our ability to identify wrongdoing,
216
1 protect both staff and the incarcerated, and
2 improve prison culture.
3 At the same time, we must take action
4 to enhance safety and security within our
5 institutions. The security incident that
6 occurred at Collins Correctional Facility
7 yesterday demonstrates the challenges faced
8 by the department. I was on-site monitoring
9 our response and thankfully, due to the
10 impressive work of our staff, we were able to
11 deescalate the situation, restore order to
12 the facility, and achieve a peaceful
13 resolution.
14 The department staffing situation is
15 impacting these and other safety concerns as
16 we remain critically understaffed. We
17 implemented several new recruitment programs
18 with success, including a regional
19 recruitment initiative that offers direct
20 placement to facilities in certain counties.
21 But more is needed to lower the number of
22 vacancies.
23 The Governor advanced legislation that
24 will remove the residency requirement for
217
1 security staff. This will enable us to
2 recruit from neighboring states, which is
3 common practice across the country.
4 This legislation will help improve our
5 staffing levels so that our employees can do
6 their jobs safely and have the work/life
7 balance that they deserve.
8 The Executive Budget also includes
9 funding and legislation to advance the
10 Governor's Jails to Jobs initiative. This
11 includes $2 million for DOCCS to establish
12 job training programs in green energy. The
13 department looks forward to training the
14 population in this expanding field and
15 contributing to the economy of the future.
16 The Governor also advanced legislation
17 to grant DOCCS discretionary authority to add
18 progress eligible for merit time and limited
19 credit time allowance, which are currently
20 set in law. The legislation will enable the
21 department to add eligible programs as they
22 come online and provide more individuals with
23 incentives to engage in rehabilitative
24 programs.
218
1 Last year the department announced its
2 commitment to join the Reentry 2030 campaign,
3 a national initiative to improve reentry
4 outcomes for justice-involved populations.
5 DOCCS established several goals to accomplish
6 by the year 2030 relating to programming,
7 employment, housing, healthcare, personal
8 documents, and Medicaid enrollment.
9 Early indicators are showing success
10 with these initiatives. The recidivism rate
11 among 2020 releasees was just under
12 19 percent, which is the lowest return rate
13 since DOCCS began tracking this information.
14 DOCCS Community Supervision continues
15 to promote public safety and reentry
16 services. The department expanded its
17 Supervision Against Violent Engagement -- or
18 SAVE -- initiative to provide heightened
19 supervision of domestic violence offenders
20 and referrals to treatment for releasees
21 diagnosed with a mental illness.
22 DOCCS is also supporting the
23 Governor's subway safety plan with enhanced
24 monitoring of recidivists committing crimes
219
1 in transit hubs. The department will
2 continue to utilize a multipronged strategy
3 to support reentry to the workforce and
4 enhance public safety.
5 There is no question that this is a
6 challenging time for our agency, following
7 the death of Robert Brooks. It is critical
8 that we meet this moment with a commitment to
9 transparency, accountability and integrity,
10 so that we may achieve structural change. We
11 must operate a humane system that treats
12 those under our care with dignity and respect
13 and prioritizes safety, security and
14 opportunity. Anything less would be a
15 disservice to the Brooks family, all those
16 who interact with our system, and the people
17 of the State of New York.
18 Thank you for having me here today. I
19 would be happy to answer any questions you
20 may have.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
22 much.
23 And New York State Police.
24 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Chairs
220
1 Krueger and Pretlow and members of the joint
2 committee, thank you for this opportunity to
3 speak about the work performed by the members
4 of the New York State Police and the various
5 proposals put forward in the
6 Executive Budget. I am Superintendent
7 Steven G. James, and I've proudly served as a
8 member of the State Police for more than
9 34 years.
10 I'm honored to serve as
11 superintendent, and I am fully committed to
12 ensuring that our members have the resources
13 that they need to carry out their mission to
14 serve and protect all New Yorkers.
15 I thank Governor Hochul and the
16 Legislature for the continued support of the
17 New York State Police, for without your
18 backing the State Police would not be capable
19 of performing at the high level that
20 New Yorkers have come to expect.
21 The expectations placed upon our
22 organization continue to expand as new
23 challenges arise. However, our members
24 continue to go above and beyond to meet the
221
1 needs of the people we serve. While more is
2 demanded of our Troopers than at any other
3 time in our history, we continue in carrying
4 out the vital undertakings of protecting all
5 people in our great state.
6 Governor Hochul's top priority is
7 public safety, and she continues to provide
8 the necessary funding and resources required
9 for us to carry out our expanded mission.
10 The fiscal year '25-'26 Executive Budget
11 continues to support the New York State
12 Police and our funding needs with regard to
13 personnel, equipment and technology. With
14 the funding in the Governor's proposed
15 budget, we can continue to boost our efforts
16 to protect all New Yorkers.
17 One area of concern continues to be
18 terrorism and increased hostilities between
19 multiple foreign nations and terrorist
20 organizations. Over the last two years,
21 Governor Hochul has provided funding to
22 increase staffing at the New York State
23 Intelligence Center, improving our ability to
24 work proactively in gathering and analyzing
222
1 intelligence, investigating threats, and
2 sharing information with our local and
3 federal enforcement partners.
4 In this budget the Governor has
5 proposed $1.7 million to expand the cyber
6 analysis unit, which will provide further
7 enhancements to those capabilities.
8 In addition, we are looking to
9 strengthen our presence at the northern
10 border. The Governor has proposed $8 million
11 to enhance our criminal enforcement efforts
12 throughout the North Country. This money
13 will fund the purchase of technology and
14 equipment to support intelligence gathering,
15 criminal investigations, interdictions, and
16 enforcement of New York State laws.
17 Our focus at the border remains
18 counterterrorism, transnational organized
19 crime, and human trafficking.
20 Another top priority is addressing the
21 spike in retail thefts. Last year we
22 received funding to establish the Organized
23 Retail Theft Task Force. Our work to stand
24 up the unit started last March, and our
223
1 members embraced the challenge, making an
2 immediate impact on the problem. We forged
3 partnerships with national retailers, we went
4 into local communities, gather intelligence
5 from local shop owners, and worked alongside
6 local and federal law enforcement partners.
7 In 2024, task force members arrested
8 688 people on 1100 charges and recovered
9 nearly $200,000 in stolen goods.
10 However, our work is not done. While
11 we have made progress, we still have many
12 ongoing investigations involving retail
13 theft, and the Governor has included funding
14 in this budget to maintain the momentum.
15 We continue our work to reduce gun
16 violence and the proliferation of illegal
17 guns. I want to thank Governor Hochul and
18 all of you again for providing the necessary
19 resources to get guns out of the hands of
20 criminals, address interstate gun
21 trafficking, and reduce violent crime in our
22 communities.
23 Through our Interstate Gun Task Force,
24 the work of our Community Stabilization Unit,
224
1 the Violent Gang and Narcotics Enforcement
2 Unit, and investigators and Troopers on
3 patrol, we continue to have success. In 2024
4 we seized 1,706 illegal guns, an increase of
5 more than 160 percent compared to 2018. With
6 your help, we can continue this critically
7 important work.
8 Agency staffing remains to be an area
9 of constant executive-level discussion within
10 the State Police, and ensuring that our
11 organization is at an adequate staffing level
12 is another top-level priority.
13 The funding provided for additional
14 Academy classes at the Cazenovia location has
15 helped us get closer to our rate of
16 attrition, and we appreciate that support.
17 Last week 176 new Troopers graduated, which
18 was the last class from Cazenovia.
19 Recruitment remains an area of concern
20 to all law enforcement agencies, and we are
21 no exception. We have an exam sign-up that's
22 been underway since last August, and it runs
23 through July of this year. We continue to
24 examine ways to identify and reach qualified
225
1 candidates. The Governor has proposed
2 eliminating the maximum age to become a
3 Trooper, which is currently 35 years of age.
4 We believe this will give us access to a new
5 pool of qualified candidates, particularly
6 those who are retiring from the military
7 service or leaving other law enforcement
8 agencies.
9 She has also proposed raising the
10 mandatory retirement age to 63. We think it
11 is critically important to retain the most
12 experienced and knowledgeable members of our
13 organization, who are difficult to replace.
14 I want to briefly touch upon a few
15 other important projects. Our body-worn
16 cameras have proven their value as we
17 investigate complaints by the public against
18 our members. The number of substantiated
19 complaints is a fraction of the total number
20 of interactions we have had with the public,
21 which underlines the continued
22 professionalism of our members.
23 We continue to prioritize the
24 replacement of high-mileage and aging patrol
226
1 vehicles for the safety of our members and to
2 ensure we can respond to emergencies. The
3 proposed budget includes funding to help us
4 continue with our plan, which includes
5 transitioning the entire patrol fleet to the
6 larger SUV vehicles.
7 I'll close by again recognizing the
8 support that Governor Hochul and the
9 Legislature has provided to our members. We
10 certainly could not provide the high quality
11 of services that we do without that support.
12 And the Executive Budget continues to provide
13 our members with the increased equipment,
14 training and other valuable resources to
15 carry out their duties.
16 The men and women of the New York
17 State Police serve each day with integrity,
18 pride and dedication, and we'll continue this
19 tradition of excellence with your support.
20 Thank you for your continued investment in
21 the State Police and for the opportunity to
22 address you today.
23 And I welcome questions that you may
24 have.
227
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
2 much.
3 And our first questioner will be
4 Chair Julia Salazar.
5 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you, Chair.
6 Good now afternoon to all of you, and
7 thank you for your testimony.
8 I will start, naturally, with
9 Commissioner Martuscello.
10 First of all, Commissioner, I know
11 that you've made it very clear at every
12 opportunity that the beating of Mr. Robert
13 Brooks to death by DOCCS employees deeply
14 disturbs you and you've taken it very
15 seriously.
16 I also want to acknowledge that the
17 father of Mr. Brooks, Robert Ricks, is here
18 with us at the hearing today.
19 I could speak of numerous documented
20 incidents in which DOCCS' process for
21 addressing serious use of force complaints
22 has failed victims of abuse by officers or
23 staff. But to stay focused on the Brooks
24 case, two correction officers and a sergeant
228
1 who were directly involved in the killing of
2 Mr. Brooks were previously named in federal
3 lawsuits for brutal attacks on incarcerated
4 individuals that left at least two men
5 permanently disabled by their injuries.
6 Those incidents both respectively
7 occurred in 2020, and those officers faced no
8 consequences or discipline from DOCCS. Over
9 four years later, those officers ruthlessly
10 beat Mr. Brooks, causing his death.
11 From DOCCS OSI's role in investigating
12 use-of-force complaints to the disciplinary
13 process that culminates in an arbitrator
14 making final disciplinary determinations,
15 this process has really failed, I believe.
16 Commissioner, in most cases you don't
17 even have the power to fire abusive officers.
18 What needs to be done to overhaul DOCCS'
19 disciplinary processes? Do you think that
20 the killing of Robert Brooks could have been
21 prevented in the disciplinary process had
22 actually been effective?
23 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Senator,
24 thank you for your question.
229
1 You know, as you indicated, I'm
2 totally repulsed with what occurred at the
3 Marcy Correctional Facility and the murder of
4 Robert Brooks. And again, my sympathies go
5 out to his family.
6 In terms of overall, you know, the
7 Governor has taken a very aggressive stance
8 in giving me funding in deployment of fixed
9 cameras and body cameras. And again, I think
10 cameras keep everybody accountable and tell
11 the truth, and it's critical evidence in this
12 investigation that will be used to criminally
13 as well as administratively hold these
14 individuals accountable.
15 Had I had that years ago, that may
16 have prevented previous disciplines or
17 prevented previous excessive-force cases and
18 helped us in previous disciplines. So this
19 is a critical step forward in the full
20 deployment of body-worn cameras. And again,
21 with the aggressive policy that they're
22 activated and powered on at all times while
23 on duty.
24 In terms of it the disciplinary
230
1 process, you know, what I'm focused on is
2 making sure we keep people accountable. As
3 you indicated, we have a collective
4 bargaining agreement process where staff are
5 afforded due process. That was negotiated
6 into the contract, and I am bound by the
7 decision of an independent arbiter looking at
8 the facts, rather than me as a 27-year
9 professional.
10 So anything that allows me to continue
11 to hold staff accountable and run a safe
12 system are things that we should be looking
13 at.
14 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you,
15 Commissioner.
16 I wanted to ask -- because you
17 mentioned the expansion of fixed cameras in
18 facilities and body-worn cameras. The
19 Executive Budget allocates $400 million for
20 this purpose. And I applaud that. However,
21 my office frequently hears about blind
22 spots -- sometimes referred to as beat-up
23 rooms, even, by incarcerated individuals in
24 prisons -- that are used by staff to evade
231
1 accountability being, you know, captured on
2 surveillance.
3 What is DOCCS's plan and timeline for
4 the installation of the stationary cameras
5 that are funded in the budget? How long do
6 you anticipate it would take for all
7 facilities to have universal stationary
8 cameras and body-worn cameras?
9 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, thank
10 you for the question.
11 Certainly as we operate prisons, some
12 of which are over 200 years old, it's very
13 difficult with fixed cameras to cover every
14 single area of an institution. Right now we
15 are at 11 facilities that are fully
16 implemented. We have another 13 that are
17 currently in progress.
18 And since the Governor took office,
19 she's already invested 413 million in the
20 fixed cameras, and that's before the new
21 appropriation that she's recommending of
22 400 million, which will allow us to finish
23 the remaining 17 facilities.
24 We're aggressively working with the
232
1 Office of General Services in expediting
2 contracts. We expedited the contract for
3 Marcy, and I have declared an emergency to do
4 the medical area, not only at Marcy but at
5 other institutions.
6 But to get to those areas where we may
7 have blind spots, body-worn cameras will be
8 critical, where every correction officer and
9 supervisor has a body-worn camera that must
10 be powered on, must be activated any time
11 that they're interacting, and overlaid with
12 the performance metrics where we're doing
13 quality assurance of that. Right? So that
14 can give us full coverage. If we have a
15 fixed-camera system that for some reason
16 didn't cover an area or it was an unexpected
17 area, the body-worn cameras will help us do
18 that.
19 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you. Yeah,
20 and it's encouraging to hear about this
21 change in the policy.
22 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: In terms of
23 the deployment of body-worn cameras, all
24 facilities right now have body-worn cameras,
233
1 with the exception of Edgecombe, which is now
2 for undomiciled parolees.
3 SENATOR SALAZAR: Right.
4 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
5 Twenty-one facilities are fully deployed,
6 meaning all security staff have them on their
7 person. The remainder have them on
8 supervisors only.
9 We are working with ITS and the
10 private sector to install switches that are
11 necessary for the upload of the type of
12 volume that comes across body-worn cameras in
13 the video.
14 So we are aggressively working towards
15 that. I anticipate by the end of June we
16 will be fully completed at every facility and
17 fully deployed.
18 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
19 I want to ask about the prison
20 closures that were authorized -- expedited
21 closures, rather, that were authorized in
22 last year's budget. Obviously Great Meadow
23 Correctional Facility and Sullivan were
24 closed.
234
1 I was curious if you have a cost
2 savings update, since that was, you know,
3 supposed to be at least in part an outcome of
4 the closures. And how does DOCCS plan to
5 repurpose those facilities, Great Meadow and
6 Sullivan?
7 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, thank
8 you, Senator. Definitely a topic of
9 discussion in terms of repurposing.
10 The overall savings was approximately
11 $82 million. We were able to successfully
12 deploy staff to other institutions because we
13 have plenty of vacancies. We did issue the
14 report to the Legislature as required under
15 that Article VII legislation. We had
16 50 staff that wound up resigning instead of
17 partaking in reassigning to other facilities.
18 As you know, the Governor had launched
19 a Prison Redevelopment Commission, which
20 issued its first report. And the ESD is the
21 chair of that committee. I know in this
22 Executive Budget proposal the Governor has
23 proposed $100 million for the purpose of
24 re-utilizing or reimagining closed prisons.
235
1 So we'll work closely with OGS as well as ESD
2 in terms of what potential reuses there could
3 be moving forward.
4 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
5 I want to ask a very different
6 question now about HALT implementation. I've
7 heard from incarcerated individuals, I've
8 also seen firsthand from my visits to
9 correctional facilities that congregate
10 out-of-cell time in compliance with HALT
11 often refers to being locked alone in a small
12 recreation pen.
13 Why does DOCCS count that time as
14 out-of-cell time that complies with HALT's
15 minimum requirements of seven hours of daily
16 out-of-cell time in RRUs, RHUs and other
17 alternative settings?
18 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
19 thank you for the question.
20 And you and I have talked about HALT
21 to a large degree since my becoming
22 commissioner, and I'm fully committed to the
23 implementation of HALT and making sure that
24 we are following it to the letter of the law.
236
1 In terms of the congregate recreation,
2 individuals aren't typically out there alone.
3 They're typically out there with others. And
4 we are -- we do have multiple projects
5 ongoing right now to put additional
6 recreational areas at facilities. As you
7 know, HALT was one year to implement and it
8 became effective. And some of the
9 infrastructure upgrades take a little longer
10 than that. So we are in compliance with the
11 law, but we do have other projects that are
12 ongoing to even exceed those expectations.
13 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
14 And just to return quickly to
15 basically the impact of prison closures, the
16 closures -- and I'll use this language even
17 if you might not. But it was in part about
18 rightsizing, if I can use that language,
19 right? But that if there was a staffing
20 shortage, closures would allow for the
21 workforce to be redistributed to fill some of
22 those vacancies across facilities.
23 Does the 380 new full-time employees
24 in the Executive Budget take into account the
237
1 closures and, additionally, the many
2 vacancies in current full-time employee
3 positions?
4 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
5 some of the increases in this budget are to
6 re-fund what was proposed last year that were
7 never materialized in the closures. We
8 closed two prisons -- again, one large
9 prison, one medium-sized prison -- which got
10 us close to the fiscal, but it didn't hit the
11 FTE count.
12 So there was a redistribution back
13 into the budget for the FTE count. Plus with
14 the expansion of OSI, there's 81 FTEs
15 associated with the redesign of OSI.
16 SENATOR SALAZAR: So you think that
17 those FTEs additional in the Executive Budget
18 are justified.
19 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: I do.
20 SENATOR SALAZAR: Okay, thank you.
21 That's my time.
22 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
23 Dinowitz.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay, I did
238
1 have a few questions for -- of course now I
2 can't find my notes, so you'll just have to
3 give me a second.
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: We can come back to
5 you.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Yeah, do that.
7 I'm just --
8 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Dilan.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Thank you,
10 Mr. Chair. And congratulations to you on
11 your new role.
12 Commissioner, I am -- we've had the
13 chance to talk since the death of -- and
14 murder of Mr. Brooks and before the release
15 of the video. And I see in your testimony
16 you talk about transforming and making your
17 department more transparent. I share that
18 view, and I look forward to working with you
19 in that. And I'd say that it would be the
20 focus of my time as the chair of this
21 committee so long as I have it.
22 I want to talk about some of the
23 things you mentioned in your testimony
24 regarding whistleblower protections. Could
239
1 you expand on that? And then I know that
2 that is done by you, maybe by your order or
3 by rule. But would you support codifying
4 anything that is common sense into
5 legislation?
6 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
7 so Assemblymember, thank you for your
8 comments. And I certainly look forward to
9 our continued working relationship as we
10 build accountability and transparency and
11 really reform as we move forward.
12 In terms of the whistleblower, I
13 issued a statewide policy to staff which gave
14 them my clear expectations that we have rules
15 in place that require staff to intervene and
16 require staff to report misconduct. So I
17 gave them clear guidance on what my
18 expectations were as well as the avenues in
19 which to approach that, whether it be through
20 the institution itself, outside to all inside
21 through our hotline number to maintain
22 anonymity, if that's the case, as well as no
23 retaliation.
24 There's also other avenues such as the
240
1 state inspector general's office as well as
2 the Attorney General's office that staff can
3 go to outside of the agency. So I wanted to
4 provide them with clear lines where they can
5 make sure that they're reporting misconduct
6 and that they'll be protected for blowing the
7 whistle in terms of those notifications.
8 I think Public Officers Law and
9 there's laws on the books that already
10 protect staff from retaliation and those
11 types of activities that are protected in
12 blowing the whistle and identifying
13 misconduct. But certainly any staff that are
14 coming forward, we want to make sure that we
15 protect them to the extent that -- the
16 fullest extent of the law.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: So if we could do
18 this quickly, how -- your whistleblower
19 protections clearly mention staff. How do
20 they also handle complaints of abuse by
21 incarcerated individuals? How will they be
22 protected under your whistleblower policy?
23 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yes,
24 similarly when incarcerated individuals file
241
1 complaints with the Office of Special
2 Investigations, they can do so in a multitude
3 of fashions. But we have a #44, which is a
4 speed dial on the incarcerated phone system,
5 which goes right to the intake unit within
6 OSI.
7 We're doing technology upgrades right
8 now, so instead of having access phones on
9 the walls, whether in the yard or in the
10 dayroom, every tablet inside of our
11 institutions has a phone application that
12 they can use in the confines of their cell or
13 their cubes and have more privacy in doing
14 so.
15 When those are reporting and we're
16 investigating, if there's follow-up where
17 staff are retaliating against them for filing
18 a complaint, we investigate that as well and
19 take appropriate disciplinary action as
20 necessary.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: So just moving on
22 to OSI requests, it's for 81, I believe, new
23 FTEs and a budget increase. Can you tell us
24 what will be different, as opposed to what
242
1 you already have? I understand this is OSI
2 within the purview of DOCCS and not the
3 Attorney General's office that you're seeking
4 funding for today.
5 What will be different and what will
6 make it more transparent to the Legislature
7 and to the people of the State of New York?
8 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, thank
9 you for the question.
10 So in terms of the restructuring of
11 OSI, we will build out the analytics unit to
12 make sure that we're able to identify trends
13 and mitigate risk, identify where we have --
14 either at a facility level, at a statewide
15 level, at an individual level, we can better
16 identify trends and get ahead of them rather
17 than be reactionary to that.
18 In addition, building out a quality
19 assurance unit where we're going to hire
20 investigative attorneys that can assist in
21 complex matters, and making sure they're
22 doing review of those cases to ensure that we
23 are following every piece of evidentiary
24 material and asking questions that are
243
1 appropriate to get to the truth.
2 Also, when we have these excessive use
3 of force cases, we do have a nurse on staff
4 that does a review, and we use an outside
5 provider to do a medical review to determine
6 if the injuries sustained are more likely to
7 align with what the incarcerated said or with
8 the staff. So we're going to bolster that
9 medical unit to make sure that we have a
10 good-quality review and a relationship with
11 that outside entity.
12 Lastly, we're going to redesign the
13 internal affairs and sex crimes unit to make
14 it a public integrity unit and hire people
15 from outside of the agency as the focus to
16 make sure we're bringing in fresh
17 perspectives when looking at these cases and
18 come with a unique perspective.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. And the
20 transparency part. Real quickly, do you have
21 anything to add?
22 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, the
23 transparency, we work very closely with the
24 AG's office, with the State Police, as well
244
1 as the Office of the Inspector General.
2 I'm also looking to move to digital
3 dashboards so I put information about our
4 system on a dashboard available to the public
5 in realtime. We've gone through the RFI
6 process, we're looking to refine it and move
7 it forward this year so we can put that out
8 to the public so people can see exactly
9 what's going on in the system: What do
10 assaults look like, what do use of forces
11 look like, what does excessive --
12 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: If you don't mind,
13 because I'm going to run out of time.
14 So you mentioned in your testimony
15 about cameras in the infirmaries, in the
16 medical units. It seems -- like I was under
17 the impression that you might have been
18 prohibited by HIPAA in doing this. It seems
19 like, by your testimony, you may not be.
20 Can you explain how you're allowed to
21 do this? Are you restrained by HIPAA in this
22 regard?
23 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Sure. I'm
24 certainly not a lawyer. I'm sure we have a
245
1 lot of you up there. So if I say something
2 contrary, I'm sure you'll let me know.
3 But we've had it reviewed by our legal
4 team. And we have a business necessity to
5 protect individuals, right, as well as
6 provide the medical care to those
7 individuals. So those -- the camera footage
8 that is supplied will not be shared outside,
9 and it's restricted who has access to that
10 and that they only have a business necessity
11 to do so.
12 If somebody were to have been --
13 further disclose medical information for a
14 different purpose, obviously that would be a
15 violation. But the sheer recording of that
16 information is not a violation of HIPAA.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: So you can secure
18 those. Because the number-one complaint I
19 get from incarcerated individuals by letter
20 in terms of abuse do happen in infirmaries,
21 so I'm glad to hear that you can secure those
22 areas. I look forward to you doing so.
23 The fixed cameras which
24 Senator Salazar touched on, we see the budget
246
1 number. But who would have, again, access to
2 the footage? Would it be yourself, the
3 Attorney General and State Police? Who has
4 access to the footage?
5 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Absolutely.
6 When we have an investigation, we turn over
7 all evidentiary material, as was evidenced in
8 the murder of Robert Brooks. Right? Our
9 investigators found the body-worn camera
10 footage. We turned it over to the
11 Attorney General and the State Police
12 immediately to further their investigation.
13 So absolutely.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. And what
15 processes would you have if your procedures
16 for the body-worn cameras are not implemented
17 properly? How will you enforce that?
18 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So
19 currently we would follow the collective
20 bargaining process and the due process the
21 employees are afforded under the various
22 collective bargaining. It would be
23 progressive discipline based on what exactly
24 is the infraction.
247
1 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. So on the
2 FTEs that you spoke on earlier, as it related
3 to the closure under expedited authority that
4 you were granted for prisons in the current
5 year's budget, if I understand your testimony
6 correctly, those FTEs were reduced last year
7 but put back this year. Will there be any
8 new hiring of correction officers? Or what
9 are those lines specifically that are outside
10 of the 81 special investigations team? What
11 are those lines going to be used for, and are
12 they a reimbursement from last year.
13 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, you
14 understood it correctly. So last year when
15 they put an estimated number of FTEs that
16 would be taken down along with a dollar
17 figure, so with the closures it didn't hit
18 the FTE numbers. So they were refunded in
19 the budget this year under the
20 appropriations. And they cross over a
21 variety of areas, both security and programs,
22 health, the various program areas in the
23 institutions.
24 But we are certainly at a critical
248
1 staffing juncture, so we are aggressively
2 recruiting.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Thank you,
4 Mr. Chair. I may have more on a second
5 round. But I see I'm going to run out of
6 time shortly.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 Our other chair, Senator Myrie.
9 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you,
10 Madam Chair.
11 I'm going to direct the balance of my
12 questions in this first round to DCJS. And
13 then we'll use the second round to direct my
14 questions at DOCCS.
15 But before that, I just want to
16 publicly recognize Mr. Ricks. You are
17 displaying courage and bravery that no parent
18 should ever have to display. And so we are
19 grateful for your attendance today and for
20 what you continue to do for the legacy of
21 your son.
22 So for DCJS, I had a mass shooting in
23 my district last year at the West Indian Day
24 Carnival Parade. I, along with my
249
1 colleagues, made some requests both to the
2 city and the state government to marshal
3 resources to help the community in the wake
4 of this mass shooting. We have introduced
5 legislation in the past that is now law that
6 would redefine what a mass shooting is and
7 what steps should be taken after it.
8 The Governor has proposed in her
9 Executive Budget $2 million for services and
10 expenses related to responding to mass
11 violence events under the auspices of OVS and
12 DOB. And I'm wondering if you could
13 elaborate more on what that is exactly.
14 Just for sign posting purposes so we
15 can be efficient on the time, I also want to
16 talk about discovery implementation and NYPD
17 money and some other gun safety things.
18 Thank you.
19 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Good to
20 see you, Senator Myrie.
21 So on the -- as you noted, OVS has the
22 appropriation for the $2 million for mass
23 casualty. I would say that after you and
24 several of your colleagues had reached out to
250
1 the Governor's office there was a $5 million
2 investment made by DCJS to DYCD to support
3 the CMS network programs. And so we've been
4 working to shore up and support the community
5 violence interruption programs throughout the
6 city. It's work that we haven't talked a lot
7 about, but it certainly goes to your
8 question.
9 On the OVS funding, again, I would
10 defer you to Director Bea Hanson. But my
11 understanding is that there's been a mass
12 casualty workgroup with OVS and Division of
13 Homeland Security and Emergency Services, and
14 they're looking at how do you respond to mass
15 casualty events in a culturally competent,
16 trauma-informed way. What does the response
17 look like in terms of the team that's
18 deployed.
19 A lot of that work came out of the
20 Buffalo shooting response. So I think we're
21 trying to, one, avoid and prevent these
22 tragedies at all costs. That's the money in
23 our budget. And then when they do happen,
24 how do we as a state leverage our
251
1 partnerships with local agencies but really
2 deploy boots on the ground to make sure that
3 victims and survivors are served.
4 SENATOR MYRIE: And in that vein, the
5 Office of Gun Violence Prevention was created
6 by executive order a couple of years ago. It
7 has, I think until very recently, been housed
8 in the Department of Health.
9 And I think we are at a critical
10 juncture in this state and in this nation.
11 The Trump administration issued an executive
12 order eliminating the federal Office of
13 Gun Violence Prevention and an additional
14 executive order meant to protect the
15 Second Amendment.
16 For what that may entail and implicate
17 for this state, I am curious what DCJS's
18 position is on bolstering the Office of
19 Gun Violence Prevention, ensuring that we
20 have cross-agency conversation. As you know,
21 we have a bill on this to expand the office,
22 to move it to DCJS where it could be a
23 beneficiary of the resources that have been
24 proposed. So I'm wondering if you could talk
252
1 to us about that.
2 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: While I
3 can't comment on pending legislation, I would
4 say that we share all of the goals that you
5 have articulated. Calliana Thomas, the
6 director of the Office of Gun Violence
7 Prevention, brings an enormous wealth of
8 resources and relationships in the city, and
9 we have started to increase our investments
10 in New York City. Right now $192 million
11 from our budget goes to New York City. And
12 so bringing together the relationship with
13 the resources is going to make sure that we
14 have a statewide picture of community
15 violence interruption.
16 And so as I noted in my testimony,
17 we've strengthened our partnership. And I
18 think the next, you know, kind of iteration
19 of that is what are the other agencies that
20 need to be at the table. And I think with
21 the convening power of the office and the
22 support of the State Legislature, we're going
23 to get there.
24 SENATOR MYRIE: Yeah, so I would just
253
1 urge for you and the Governor's office to
2 consider when we talk about gun violence
3 prevention, for a long time that has meant
4 solely investing in law enforcement. And we
5 certainly need investment in that area to
6 help prevent and to solve crime.
7 What we have heard from our
8 communities is that to help prevent it from
9 happening in the first place, that we could
10 have investments in other areas. And that I
11 think requires a multiagency approach, one
12 that I think the Office of Gun Violence
13 Prevention could be a gathering source for --
14 to help coordinate some of these responses.
15 Now, on discovery implementation,
16 there have been allocations in previous
17 budgets. This Legislature has fought to
18 include resources for the implementation of
19 discovery. But it has remained unclear to
20 me, at least, how that has been doled out,
21 who is taking advantage of it, where we can
22 see those numbers in realtime.
23 So my two questions are, is there a
24 county breakdown on where those resources
254
1 have gone for discovery implementation? And
2 additionally, have the funds been completely
3 awarded yet? Are there outstanding funds
4 that have not been awarded? And if so, why?
5 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So just as
6 a comment on your last one, the commissioner
7 has been very intentional over the last three
8 years that every dollar we give to law
9 enforcement we also give a dollar to a
10 community-based organization. So if you look
11 at the balance of our budget, we are truly
12 trying to invest in both responding to crime
13 and preventing it in the first instance.
14 To your questions about discovery, our
15 budget continues $120 million in discovery
16 support to ensure compliance of defenders,
17 prosecutors, police, IT departments,
18 everybody.
19 The status of that funding is that,
20 you know, again, channeling my inner
21 commissioner, the dollars are out the door.
22 We have been pushing the money out through
23 block grants in many instances to our city
24 partners, including defense and prosecution.
255
1 And outside of the city, what we did a
2 few years ago was we have county plans where
3 we've said, okay, here is how much is going
4 to go to the prosecution, here's how much is
5 going to go to law enforcement, to ensure
6 that we were building this kind of muscle for
7 information sharing.
8 The real pivot over the last two and a
9 half years has been our work with the
10 Defenders Association and the New York
11 Prosecutors Training Institute, to create
12 centralized case management systems that
13 allow the seamless transfer of information,
14 you know, between prosecution and defense
15 organizations and with the courts.
16 And I think that's really where we've
17 seen, you know, a beneficial kind of removing
18 the patchwork and instead going to a unified
19 system of information sharing.
20 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you. And on the
21 plan to increase police presence in the MTA
22 subway system, the Governor announced that
23 the state was going to invest $77 million in
24 that. Do we know what the total cost will be
256
1 both to the city and the state for that plan?
2 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So the
3 77 million is half of the cost. So New York
4 City is picking up the other 77. DCJS's
5 budget has the 77 that's the state share.
6 And our plan is to provide that to the NYPD
7 to, as announced by the Governor, really look
8 at police presence on the subways and the
9 platforms in the overnight hours.
10 SENATOR MYRIE: And are there any
11 contingency plans for if that number is
12 higher than the total and thus increasing our
13 state allocation?
14 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Not to my
15 knowledge. The $77 million is the state's
16 commitment proposed by the Governor's budget.
17 SENATOR MYRIE: Okay, thank you.
18 I do have some time left, so I'm going
19 to shift to DOCCS for a second, and also
20 reserve my opportunity to come back if we run
21 out of time.
22 I think my colleagues, certainly under
23 the leadership of Chair Salazar, have been
24 quite expressive in what our sentiment is on
257
1 what happened to Mr. Brooks. I think the
2 public, seeing that the officers have not yet
3 faced consequences for killing someone in
4 their care, is disturbing. And what we have
5 seen in other contexts, certainly in
6 conversations around other criminal justice
7 reforms, is outrage that individuals who were
8 accused of a crime, or who may have been
9 convicted of a crime, of being let out.
10 But in this case, in a very high
11 profile, very public way, someone was
12 murdered, and the consequences seem to be
13 evasive.
14 And so I'm hoping you can communicate,
15 Commissioner, to New Yorkers who feel that
16 there is not the same measure of
17 accountability and outrage for this type of
18 killing, and what you would say to
19 New Yorkers who think that the system is not
20 fair.
21 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yes,
22 Senator, thank you for the question.
23 I certainly share your outrage, as
24 well as I know the Governor does. She's
258
1 issued many statements on that and encouraged
2 both the Attorney General, when she
3 advocates, and once recused, the district
4 attorney, to move very swiftly to bring
5 charges against those accused of the murder
6 of Robert Brooks.
7 So I know that the district attorney
8 is working very vigorously to do that, to
9 make sure that they have an air-tight case
10 going forward. I can't speak to the district
11 attorney in terms of when the charging will
12 occur, but I do know that we've made it
13 expressly clear that we want criminal charges
14 filed against all involved.
15 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
17 Dinowitz.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: I found my
19 papers.
20 This is for DCJS. So I also want to
21 talk about the $77 million that the state is
22 providing for the cops on the subways.
23 So are they going to receive any kind
24 of specialized training in deescalation
259
1 techniques or other like nonviolent
2 strategies, ways to address situations that
3 perhaps we don't always do but should do?
4 And if so, what? How?
5 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: I would
6 defer your question to NYPD.
7 But I would say this. DCJS, through
8 our Municipal Police Training Council, sets
9 the basic course for police officers, which
10 requires use-of-force training, deescalation
11 training. We also offer those as in-service
12 trainings to police officers.
13 So you know, we're there to provide
14 technical assistance. I can't speak to how
15 the specialized appointment of NYPD is going
16 to work vis-a-vis their training
17 requirements.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Will there be a
19 system in place to evaluate how effective
20 this is? And we're talking about, what,
21 $154 million being spent. That's still a lot
22 of money. So are we going to be able to
23 determine whether it's working?
24 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN:
260
1 Absolutely. I mean, I think the Governor has
2 been laser-like focused on this, and she's
3 announced at a number of kind of press
4 conferences how she's tracking the metrics of
5 success on subway crime. And she's reported
6 that subway crimes are decreasing.
7 So I anticipate that that kind of
8 measure of what's happening in our mass
9 transit systems is going to continue. And
10 then we'll obviously have a before period of
11 time to look at what was happening and then
12 after the investment, to be able to measure
13 its efficacy.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Right. I mean,
15 we keep reading about some of these
16 high-profile cases on the one hand, but then
17 the mayor says crime is down. So I don't
18 know how we reconcile -- on the subways. I'm
19 not sure how you reconcile all that. So I
20 don't know what to believe, because we just
21 get conflicting information all the time.
22 But one thing occurs to me. I mean,
23 I'll admit I don't normally take the subway
24 at 3 o'clock in the morning. But if you have
261
1 one cop or two cops, even, on a 10-car
2 subway, I mean, I assume that the officers
3 will be going up and down, back and forth.
4 But I mean even if you have two officers on
5 the train, they're not going to be in
6 10 places at the same time.
7 So I'm just wondering how effective
8 that's going to be.
9 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: I think
10 one of the things that I would say is the
11 Governor last March announced a surge of
12 State Troopers and others into the mass
13 transit areas. And again, I think one is
14 providing public perception and confidence
15 that law enforcement is there and able to
16 respond if any incidents occur. And then
17 secondly, you know, there is a deterrent
18 effect.
19 So I think here the same kind of
20 strategies are in play between the mayor and
21 the Governor to say, okay, staffing really,
22 you know, should be dedicated to times where
23 people might feel the most afraid or where
24 they've seen incidents.
262
1 And to your larger question, which I
2 think is very similar to the one you asked
3 Judge Zayas is, you know, you have a trend in
4 one direction and yet you have outliers,
5 horrific incidents that happen in another.
6 And the two things can be true. And it's
7 really difficult to kind of disentangle that
8 risk perception, how people feel from what
9 otherwise might be their relative safety over
10 time.
11 So I'm happy to have the conversation
12 with you anytime and look at all the DCJS
13 data. And it's something that we're trying
14 to disentangle as well.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: I love looking
16 at data.
17 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: I have all
18 the data, so.
19 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: I'd rather look
20 at data than look at, you know, crazy
21 headlines in one of our tabloids.
22 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: No
23 comment.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: So in another
263
1 area, one of the things that's really plagued
2 us everywhere -- I know it certainly has in
3 my area and in the Bronx, Manhattan,
4 everywhere -- has been organized retail
5 theft.
6 So the Governor has continued funding
7 for $10 million for DAs to prosecute property
8 crimes and $5 million to build capacity for
9 local law enforcement to combat retail theft.
10 The money -- there was money in last
11 year's budget. Do we have any data or
12 anything to indicate if it's been helpful in
13 any way?
14 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So last
15 year is the first time we've seen larcenies,
16 which is our closest kind of report to this,
17 drop since the pandemic. So we've seen
18 larcenies start to go in the right direction.
19 Off the top of my head, it's down
20 3 percent through the first three quarters of
21 last year. That's 1 percent in New York City
22 and about 4 or 5 percent outside of the city.
23 In terms of the investment, what that
24 money really allowed us to do, in addition to
264
1 Superintendent James talking about his
2 organized retail theft work, we have a
3 statewide picture, through our Crime Analysis
4 Centers, on what's happening with organized
5 retail theft.
6 And so in one instance we saw there
7 was a criminal enterprise that was using our
8 borders, taking rental cars from Canada,
9 driving through the Thruway cities, including
10 my city of Syracuse, and stopping at high-end
11 stores, really kind of professionally kind of
12 raiding them, and then going on to the next
13 city.
14 The Crime Analysis Centers, along with
15 the State Police, were able to kind of start
16 to stitch together, okay, this is happening,
17 this is the cycle, this is the pattern. And
18 it gave the investigators and law enforcement
19 enough information to say, okay, we now know
20 with what kind of frequency this is going to
21 happen, and get in front of it.
22 And so that's the kind of value of
23 providing the resources to the Crime Analysis
24 Centers as well as to our law enforcement
265
1 partners who enforce and prosecute the laws.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: I guess this is
3 true everywhere. Like a block from my office
4 there's a Walgreens, and across the street
5 from Walgreens people have, you know, little
6 bridge tables or whatever, tables set up
7 selling stuff which very well could have come
8 from Walgreens, you know, 10 minutes earlier.
9 And it just seems to go -- and maybe
10 I'm making an assumption there, but it just
11 seems to go on and on, and so if the -- if
12 the crime rate is down for that area,
13 hopefully some of the stuff we're doing has
14 an impact. I mean, I happen to personally
15 believe that there is a direct and very close
16 correlation between the waning of the
17 pandemic and a diminishing crime rate.
18 But I guess next year you'll be able
19 to provide more data.
20 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yes. And
21 I would just say, you know, there is external
22 research, as a "pracademic" myself, around
23 the effect of inflation and cost of living
24 and particularly the rise in property crimes.
266
1 And so this isn't a New York
2 phenomenon, this is kind of a nationwide one.
3 And I think your observations are rooted in
4 reality, which is a data point itself.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay, thank
6 you. I'm done.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Palumbo.
8 SENATOR PALUMBO: Thank you,
9 Madam Chair.
10 And I guess just to follow up on that
11 question that was just asked by Assemblyman
12 Dinowitz of DCJS, if I may. And good
13 afternoon, gentlemen.
14 So when you compare those property
15 crime numbers, have you been able to compare
16 them to, say, 2019 or 2018?
17 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yes. So
18 we have compared them, and I think we're
19 roughly back to where we were in 2017, 2018.
20 I can provide more kind of a breakdown to
21 your office.
22 SENATOR PALUMBO: Okay. And are they
23 being recorded -- I know there was some
24 testimony in recent years where there were
267
1 different ways of recording them through
2 DCJS, that if someone gets seven appearance
3 tickets, appears for one arraignment, that
4 was considered one arrest. Is that still
5 done?
6 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So the
7 crime reporting systems, as we testified to
8 in February of 2023, are still the systems in
9 terms of NIBRS, the National Incident-Based
10 Reporting System, and our summary of crime
11 reporting.
12 And then in terms of -- the other type
13 of feed that we get is arrests, which are
14 fingerprintable arrests, and those come to
15 DCJS as well.
16 SENATOR PALUMBO: Okay, so then it
17 still counts as one. Is that just for
18 certain types of crime, or is that for -- if
19 someone commits several robberies, for
20 example, or is it for violent crime?
21 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So if it's
22 all in one crime category, then there would
23 be just one fingerprint, one arrest that
24 comes to us. But I'd have to know the exact
268
1 fact pattern to be able to answer 100 percent
2 certain.
3 SENATOR PALUMBO: Okay, fair enough.
4 And Judge Zayas was here earlier and
5 was talking about speedy trial dismissals due
6 to discovery violations. Is there any way --
7 do they parse that out through DCJS? If they
8 have a dismissal, is there a specific grounds
9 listed, or is it just like, you know, 170.40,
10 you know, sub whatever -- you know, just
11 like interests of justice dismissal?
12 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yeah.
13 We're looking at the same data that's on the
14 OCA dashboard. And as you asked that
15 question, I control-F'd and print screen it.
16 And so, you know, I have the OCA dashboard.
17 There isn't a breakdown of kind of dismissal
18 type, what was the reason behind that.
19 SENATOR PALUMBO: Okay, very good.
20 Thank you.
21 Commissioner Martuscello, a few
22 questions. Regarding drugs in our prisons, I
23 mean, we're still seeing -- obviously it's of
24 great concern to you as well, as it is to all
269
1 of us, that we have a lot of illegal drugs
2 that are affecting staff, they're getting
3 ill, being hospitalized as a result of
4 fentanyl interactions.
5 So can you tell us what you're
6 contemplating, intemplating {ph} or what
7 you've been -- what's the word I'm looking
8 for. Any implementation, any way that you're
9 addressing that? If you could just generally
10 comment on that, please.
11 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: In
12 2024 we had 706 seizures of drugs, contraband
13 drugs in the system.
14 We've taken a couple of steps in terms
15 of combating drugs entering the system.
16 First, we've hired K-9 dogs, drug-sniffing
17 dogs. We have 27 K-9s associated with the
18 system that rotate from facility to facility.
19 We've also implemented a vendor
20 package program, which has cut down on
21 contraband entering the system through
22 packages. And two years ago the Governor
23 advanced and this body approved us to have
24 body scanners. We purchased 88 body scanners
270
1 at a cost of $11 million, which are currently
2 operational at all of our facilities.
3 I also implemented whereby in regular
4 mail we're now photocopying regular mail that
5 comes in, and giving the photocopy to the
6 incarcerated individual.
7 As a result of the recent incident at
8 Upstate, where I believe one of the areas
9 that drugs are still coming in is on the
10 legal mail -- right? And legal mail has
11 certain requirements for handling how quickly
12 it gets to them, because of court
13 proceedings, making sure we're not reviewing
14 it, opening it in their presence -- we are
15 now calling every law firm to confirm that
16 you sent the mail to your client, and who
17 that client is, prior to delivery.
18 And we've had instances where it
19 wasn't the case, we've returned to sender and
20 someone has found drugs when they've opened
21 it up when we returned to sender.
22 So that's a stop-gap measure. We're
23 also looking at some technology, have a few
24 vendors set up to come in and showcase some
271
1 things they may be able to help us with as it
2 pertains to legal mail.
3 As part of the broader national
4 association, legal mail is something that is
5 being focused on.
6 SENATOR PALUMBO: Okay, very good.
7 And regarding that -- I only have
8 about 30 seconds left -- those body scanners,
9 do visitors have an option to do that, or can
10 you require them to go through a scanner if
11 they want to come in and visit?
12 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
13 Everyone, under law, has an option to opt
14 out, whether it's staff, visitors or
15 incarcerated people.
16 SENATOR PALUMBO: So they don't have
17 to -- so they can just say "I'm not doing it"
18 and you don't get to scan them?
19 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
20 That's correct. Then we would follow other
21 frisk procedures. We have our K-9s
22 available. So we have some follow-ups to --
23 SENATOR PALUMBO: Does that make sense
24 to you? You can comment sometime. I don't
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1 know if you want to --
2 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: I
3 follow the law as written.
4 SENATOR PALUMBO: I gotcha. Thank
5 you.
6 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblymember
7 Morinello.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: This is for
9 DCJS.
10 For the fourth straight year the
11 Governor has included 50 million in capital
12 funding for innovative crime-reduction
13 strategies for gun violence. Could you
14 explain some of the strategies and
15 initiatives that have been supported by the
16 $50 million capital investment to help
17 communities combat gun violence?
18 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Thank you
19 very much for the question.
20 So the $50 million in capital was used
21 in large part to fund the law enforcement
22 technology and equipment grants that we
23 talked about in our testimony.
24 So the kind of history on it is we did
273
1 a, you know, request for information from law
2 enforcement saying how much do you think you
3 need for technology and equipment, whether
4 it's surveillance cameras or body-worn or
5 patrol equipment. We thought there'd be
6 about $20 million. We got $50 million worth
7 of requests.
8 And then we did the actual request for
9 applications and we got $127 million of
10 requests from over 300 agencies. And so we
11 had several years of funding that we were
12 able to dedicate to meet the need of all of
13 our law enforcement partners.
14 And one of the reasons why this
15 funding is so effective is that we also tied
16 it to the surveillance cameras or other data
17 that's collected goes back to the Crime
18 Analysis Centers to -- you know, to have
19 better enforcement and to have better
20 prosecutions. So I think it's been a real
21 game-changer and it's been the backbone of
22 local law enforcement efforts over the last
23 few years.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: So if I
274
1 understand, you mentioned the Crime Centers.
2 That is gathering the information and then
3 utilizing that to assist law enforcement
4 throughout the state to identify possibly
5 target areas and processes and procedures
6 which I would understand you can't reveal at
7 this point.
8 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yes.
9 Yeah. It's a copilot model. So there used
10 to be this big kind of tension in the field
11 about, you know, crime analysis should be
12 done only by sworn personnel. I think a lot
13 of times, though, departments realized that
14 they were spending a lot of time, effort and
15 energy training a detective, you know, to do
16 this and then they'd be working on social
17 media analysis that a civilian could do.
18 And so I think, you know, both the
19 State Police and DCJS have made a conscious
20 investment in advancing the profession of
21 crime analysts to the point where it's now a
22 copilot. So you've got your detective or
23 investigator, but you also have a civilian
24 crime analyst who's running those reports,
275
1 doing that pattern analysis, and giving you
2 the investigative leads that make your job
3 better.
4 What we really want is to make sure
5 that law enforcement is out with the
6 community, building the relationships,
7 pursuing the enforcement actions that we all
8 want to see -- and not spending time having
9 to go back and look up somebody's Twitter
10 account. Sorry, X account.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Thank you.
12 I'm going to switch over to the
13 northern border protection. You've been
14 sitting there very quietly, so I thought
15 maybe we wouldn't make you feel like we
16 didn't want you here.
17 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: No worries.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: My district is
19 Long Lake, Ontario, and the Niagara River,
20 and we have seen a tremendous uptick. And
21 one of the issues that we've been having is
22 we have a number of individuals along the
23 river who, in the winter, do not live
24 there -- they go to Florida, they go to other
276
1 areas.
2 And what we're finding is some of the
3 coyotes know who's not there and they're
4 utilizing their backyards to bring some of
5 the individuals across the river.
6 And one of the difficulties has been
7 Border Patrol will see automobiles that they
8 know don't belong there, but they cannot
9 access who they belong to or who they are.
10 Has there been any discussions on at
11 least allowing Border Patrol, who has to
12 patrol that area, to interact with your State
13 Troopers in allowing them to get some of this
14 information on those vehicles that may be
15 abandoned or in driveways where they know no
16 one is there?
17 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Thank you
18 for the question.
19 Yeah, and as I understand it, that
20 information, more or less proprietary, is
21 with DMV. And that process really rests with
22 DMV, whether you're talking Green Light laws
23 or, you know, the like.
24 I understand the concern. I
277
1 understand what would appear to be the gap
2 there. But in addition to plate information,
3 there's various other aspects.
4 Part of what the Governor has
5 provided -- obviously 3 million last year,
6 8 million now for the border -- that's for
7 our intel to work collectively with
8 Border Patrol.
9 If there's instances where we can
10 bridge that gap, we will work with them, even
11 if it's touching base with our DMV partners
12 to find that out as well. But it's worthy of
13 a discussion with DMV.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Is there any
15 prohibition against Border Patrol calling a
16 Trooper in?
17 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: No. Short
18 answer.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 Senator Rolison.
21 SENATOR ROLISON: Thank you,
22 Madam Chair.
23 And thank you for being here today.
24 Commissioner Martuscello, I want to
278
1 thank you for your communications with our
2 office as it relates to the two facilities
3 that I have in the 39th District, which is
4 Green Haven and Fishkill Correctional.
5 Green Haven, when I first came in in
6 '23, was dealing with staffing issues that
7 seem to have gotten a little bit better with
8 the addition of some classes that were
9 designated for the district. In Dutchess
10 County, now Fishkill Correctional is having
11 the same situations.
12 I've visited both these facilities a
13 half-dozen times, and certainly the staffing
14 issue in the Department of Corrections is the
15 number-one issue in the State of New York, of
16 any agency that we have.
17 I did see yesterday, in reading about
18 the Collins incident, that there was a
19 directive or a memo from you relating to
20 staffing reductions at 30 percent reduction,
21 or getting down to 70 percent, even though --
22 I don't know if we're there at 70 now. We're
23 probably not, I don't know. But I believe
24 we're over 2,000 uniformed officers short,
279
1 thousands of civilian staff. I mean, those
2 numbers are absolutely staggering.
3 But do you envision, moving forward --
4 because everything has to do with staffing.
5 You know, the care, the safety of our
6 officers, the staff, incarcerated
7 individuals, opening recreation yards,
8 industry and all the things that we hear
9 continually that may not be able to be done,
10 which goes to the overall safety and the
11 running of the facility because there's not
12 enough people and they're working 24-hour
13 shifts -- and I could go on. And you know
14 all this.
15 But do you envision with this review,
16 this analysis of staffing that does not
17 exist, to be able to create a smaller,
18 better-compensated workforce?
19 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yes,
20 Senator, thank you for the question.
21 You know, I was at Collins yesterday,
22 as I mentioned, and I actually addressed this
23 with a bunch of staff. You know, what I'm
24 doing is listening to my staff.
280
1 You know, we are down 2200 correction
2 officers, but yet we're still manning, we're
3 still putting staff on posts as we did 20,
4 30 years ago. We need to take a look at
5 efficiencies to see where we have overlaps
6 and we can more efficiently do our jobs while
7 still living our progressive values and
8 getting people home to their families instead
9 of working in our institutions.
10 Let me give you an example. I allow
11 for a vocational instructor and an
12 electrician to do live work with incarcerated
13 people and Class A tools with no correction
14 officers inside the confines of the facility.
15 But the minute I allow an incarcerated
16 individual on a lawnmower, I need a
17 correction officer to supervise him. Doesn't
18 make sense to me. Just because we always did
19 it that way, not a good reason to continue.
20 So I want to use the expertise of the
21 staff in the institutions to take a real look
22 and redesign how we have job assignments, how
23 we have post orders, to see if we can make it
24 more efficient to drive safety in the
281
1 institutions as well as get them home to
2 their families. They are overworked, they're
3 tired, and they need our support.
4 We've all talked about it for a number
5 of years here, and we're making progress, but
6 they're still tired. And this is a necessary
7 step.
8 I'm not trying to eliminate current
9 staff. I'm trying to alleviate the burdens
10 on them and their families.
11 SENATOR ROLISON: Because ultimately,
12 and you're talking about adding, you know,
13 380 FTEs for special investigations or
14 whatever you're going to use them for, but
15 yet there's over 2,000 vacancies as it is.
16 And so, you know, adding more staff --
17 maybe it's for specific types of units --
18 also, too, do a lot of the special
19 investigation members come from the current
20 ranks as well?
21 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So
22 that had been our past model. We've moved
23 away from that. It's now a combination where
24 we bring up -- bring in people from other law
282
1 enforcement backgrounds, whether it's the DEA
2 or local police departments, district
3 attorneys. So we have a variety of
4 backgrounds to take a more keen look at our
5 investigations.
6 So not necessarily. Our focus for OSI
7 is to really hire people outside of the
8 organization, to bring them in from a fresh
9 perspective.
10 But I'm committed with regional
11 recruitment and with the Governor's proposal
12 to expand and allow me to hire people out of
13 state. I think that it's going to help us to
14 bolster our ranks.
15 When we did the regional hiring in
16 Chemung and we announced it, people right
17 across the border, we had over 600 calls to
18 Elmira Correctional Facility, and we couldn't
19 hire them because you have to be a New York
20 State resident.
21 SENATOR ROLISON: Right. I mean, I
22 think -- and I'll end with this. And again,
23 thank you for all the things that you have
24 been doing to try to rectify these issues,
283
1 which are very challenging, the most complex
2 in the state.
3 But I would just say without the
4 people within the facilities, we can't do the
5 things that we want to do for the system
6 which benefits everybody. And I hope that
7 everyone at the state level is looking at it.
8 That's the critical issue.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
11 Senator, thank you for your service.
12 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
13 Palmesano.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes,
15 Commissioner Martuscello, of course my
16 five minutes -- this is my five minutes -- is
17 for you. Thank you.
18 We talked, and I hope we can -- you
19 know, five minutes is enough to go over
20 everything. I hope we could talk offline
21 sometime.
22 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
23 Absolutely.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: And when we've
284
1 spoken in the past, we've both agreed that
2 violence inside our correctional facilities
3 is absolutely unacceptable. And certainly
4 what happened to Mr. Brooks was absolutely
5 horrific, totally unacceptable, and those
6 individuals must be held accountable.
7 But getting back to the violence
8 inside our correctional facilities, as you
9 know, it has skyrocketed in the past three
10 years. It points right to HALT. If you look
11 at the numbers, people say we need more time
12 to evaluate HALT. It's been three years, and
13 the numbers just on assaults -- inmate on
14 staff assaults have increased 76 percent over
15 that time, from 1100 to just over 2,000. And
16 more staggering, inmate on inmate assaults
17 have increased from 1100 to 2,983, for an
18 increase of 169 percent.
19 So HALT should be repealed or
20 seriously reformed. And I hope you're
21 delivering that message to Governor Hochul in
22 your conversations. But I want to go on from
23 there.
24 It is quite frankly -- you know we
285
1 have a staffing crisis in our correctional
2 facilities. We've had prison closures,
3 inmate population is up. Violence is at
4 record levels, which we just talked about.
5 mandatory overtime, sometimes triple
6 overtime. It makes me wonder, who would want
7 to do this job in the current working
8 conditions? And they're not. They're not
9 saying yes.
10 And then I read a memo that was sent
11 out this week that you talked about a little
12 bit, maybe, that would eliminate open jobs
13 and impose -- not because they're not needed
14 or important but because you can't fill them.
15 On paper, that might solve the staffing
16 crisis on paper, but it's not going to solve
17 the problem.
18 And what I don't understand, when we
19 have staffing crises, you look at the
20 healthcare, they're giving recruitment
21 bonuses, retention bonuses. The starting pay
22 for a CO is 56,000. That's woefully
23 inadequate. We need to significantly
24 invest -- you know, money talks, BS walks.
286
1 We need to significantly invest in our
2 corrections officers, their pay and their
3 benefits. And their retirement, after they
4 get to their 25 years, if they continue on.
5 They do not get that bump in retirement like
6 others do. That needs to be corrected.
7 Why are we not and why are you not
8 talking -- and maybe you are. And I think
9 you get it. I'm wondering about
10 Governor Hochul. Why are we not providing
11 significant recruitment bonuses and retention
12 bonuses for our COs? And why would the
13 Governor veto the death gamble bill again,
14 which would have provided security for our
15 corrections officers so they don't run a risk
16 through retirement for their loved one, and
17 that would help keep them. And why -- and
18 she said that has to be in the budget, but
19 she didn't put it in her budget.
20 What's being done? We've lost -- last
21 year we had 500 new recruits, but we lost 600
22 people. What are we doing? This isn't
23 working. We need to pay more, we need better
24 benefits, and that's what's going to help
287
1 solve this problem.
2 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yes,
3 so thank you for the question and your
4 support of our workforce.
5 You said a lot in there, so I'm not
6 going to be able to unpack it all. However,
7 I would say this. The Governor has been very
8 supportive of our workforce in terms of we
9 increased the starting salary of the
10 correction officer position by over $6700 --
11 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: But it's still
12 $56,000, which is woefully inadequate.
13 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
14 Fifty-six five. And then we --
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Woefully
16 inadequate.
17 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Then
18 we entered into a collective bargaining
19 agreement, which the membership ratified,
20 with raises across the board as well as soft
21 money, upwards of $11,000.
22 So really, starting the Academy with a
23 high school diploma at $66,000 in the
24 Academy, and then goes up after one year.
288
1 And then, again, decentralizing to
2 targeted recruitment in terms of hiring
3 people and allowing them to go right back to
4 their communities. We've seen an uptick --
5 as Senator Rolison said, it's helped us at
6 Green Haven doing those regional
7 recruitments. And I think it's going to help
8 us in Chemung and Central New York and these
9 other counties that we're targeting, where we
10 have correction officers not on reassignment
11 lists.
12 Two years ago we tried to lower the
13 age. Unfortunately, that didn't pass. But
14 this year we're going to allow me to hire
15 out-of-state residents. And I really think
16 that that's going to help us bolster that.
17 I really need a partnership. I've
18 written to every member of the Legislature,
19 every SUNY president, every CUNY president,
20 and the union, and I've really asked: Let's
21 lean in and let's partner together. We need
22 to get away from the negativity. And I say
23 it all the time. If every staff person just
24 brought one person to the table -- one
289
1 person -- I wouldn't have a staffing problem.
2 It's that simple. One person. Right?
3 And if we can do that, we can make
4 sure people have the quality of life and a
5 work/life balance that they so deserve.
6 Because they're critical in the public safety
7 continuum in New York State.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: And I
9 appreciate what you said, but I do think we
10 need to bump that pay higher. We need more
11 recruitment bonuses and retention bonuses to
12 keep them. And we need the death gamble
13 fixed. I hope you're talking to the Governor
14 about that.
15 How many FTEs are in the Governor's
16 budget proposal for this year, for new
17 correction officers? Is there any --
18 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
19 so we have a total FTE count of over 25,000.
20 The FTE count for correction officers is just
21 under 15,000 with an incarcerated population
22 at 33,600.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: So like in the
24 budget for a new class, because last year
290
1 there was 500 new but we lost 600.
2 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Oh,
3 yeah, I will tell you this. For new classes,
4 I have the support to fill up to my FTE
5 level. It's about -- if you bring them to
6 me, I'll process them and hire them.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. I
9 have to cut this off. Thank you.
10 Next is Senator Brisport.
11 SENATOR BRISPORT: Thank you,
12 Madam Chair.
13 Commissioner Martuscello, in your
14 written testimony it says that after the
15 death of Mr. Brooks you ordered an
16 investigation. But I want to point out that
17 following an October 2022 facility visit to
18 Marcy correctional facility by CANY, they
19 published a report on rampant abuse by staff,
20 including physical assaults and observations
21 of a retaliatory environment across the
22 general population units, the SHU and the
23 RMHU. It also reported significant numbers
24 of instances of racialized abuse and
291
1 discrimination, including derogatory language
2 and unequal treatment.
3 You had seen that report from CANY,
4 hadn't you?
5 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yes. Thank
6 you for the question. I did see that report.
7 And following that report, we not only
8 responded but I directed our OSI to have a
9 call with CANY to discuss the allegations
10 specifically so they can launch
11 investigations. They were able to launch
12 three investigations associated at Marcy.
13 One wound up being associated to Mid-State.
14 But a lot of the information was more
15 anecdotal where it couldn't identify an
16 individual.
17 But we did do that follow-up.
18 And now, moving forward, I have a good
19 relationship with CANY, I meet with them on a
20 quarterly basis. I think there's a lot of
21 value in what they bring to the table in
22 order to provide me with information that
23 people may not be saying to us, may not be
24 saying to OSI.
292
1 And then on top of that, after every
2 visit, before they even issue the report,
3 we're setting up monthly calls with my Office
4 of Special Investigations. Because I want
5 that information realtime, when it's fresh,
6 when the people know who they're talking
7 about, while they're still in the
8 institutions, so we can immediately
9 investigate and hold people accountable.
10 SENATOR BRISPORT: And, commissioner,
11 in your testimony you also mentioned a few
12 things and policies and changes you've made
13 since the death of Mr. Brooks. I'm curious,
14 why weren't any of those changes implemented
15 after the previous CANY report on widespread
16 abuse? And if you had implemented any of the
17 reforms you mentioned earlier, do you think
18 any of those might have saved Mr. Brooks'
19 life?
20 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So in
21 terms of implementation prior to, Marcy, we
22 deployed body cameras at Marcy just in March
23 of 2024. Right? In advance of the tragic
24 murder of Mr. Brooks, right? So that
293
1 directly correlates to capturing and holding
2 people accountable.
3 Unfortunately, it didn't prevent his
4 death, which is totally, absolutely
5 unfortunate and tragic. Right?
6 But we have been moving forward with
7 technology and to safeguard the system,
8 advance investigations to try to hold people
9 accountable and make sure we're rooting out
10 violence within the system.
11 You know, I will not normalize
12 violence in the system, no matter who's the
13 perpetrator of it, right? There's no place
14 for it. People come to prison and my job is
15 to give them the tools to succeed and go back
16 to their family. Unfortunately for
17 Mr. Brooks, that's not going to happen, and
18 for that I'm absolutely sorry.
19 SENATOR BRISPORT: Those are all my
20 questions.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
22 Assembly.
23 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
24 McDonald.
294
1 ASSEMBLYMAN McDONALD: Thank you,
2 Mr. Chair. And thanks to all three of you
3 for your testimony today.
4 I'm going to start off with the
5 superintendent, for the most part. There's
6 $8 million that the Executive has proposed
7 for additional State Police and
8 counterterrorism investigators along the
9 northern border. Is that focused more
10 recently on personnel, or also are there
11 tools or certain type of devices? What do
12 you plan to do with that money?
13 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Six million
14 dollars of that is personal service, of which
15 the remainder is between technology.
16 resources, software, training, all to bolster
17 the mission of protecting the northern
18 border.
19 In some respects I would say we're
20 certainly always welcome for more. Obviously
21 our initiative up there is not going away
22 with counterterrorism. So it is a start,
23 incrementally. The idea would be to expand
24 that request even further.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN McDONALD: Just as an FYI,
2 I haven't heard anybody in the last two weeks
3 ask for less. They're always asking for
4 more. Which -- you're doing your job, right?
5 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Yes.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN McDONALD: Member Dinowitz
7 got into this a little bit in regards to
8 organized retail theft. One of the concerns
9 last year was in regards to interactions in
10 working with local law enforcement. Has that
11 gone along -- how has that gone along? Has
12 it gone well?
13 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: It's going
14 along quite well. As a matter of fact, I
15 touched base with Craig Apple a short time
16 ago to ensure that he was getting the
17 resources that he needed. He's working
18 collectively, obviously with Troop G for --
19 on the ORT.
20 Also Oneida County, Sheriff Maciol,
21 the PD, we work collectively with Oneida
22 County and also the Onondaga County Sheriff.
23 I made a commitment when I met with the
24 Sheriffs Association that we would spread the
296
1 resources, work with them collectively.
2 We've even done MOUs with regard to
3 repurposing the equipment so it's not all
4 held with the State Police, whether it's
5 LPRs, body-worn cameras. And trust me, they
6 weren't shy in putting in the request as
7 well.
8 But we can do certainly much more
9 collectively with the local law enforcement.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN McDONALD: Great, thank
11 you. And actually, it's interesting, I was
12 with Sheriff Apple last night, and I've
13 actually been communicating with the
14 Sheriffs Association. So Dan, this
15 question's moving towards your direction.
16 It deals with medication-assisted
17 treatment. You and I have had conversations
18 in the past about making sure that those
19 individuals who are looking for treatment
20 have access to it. The sheriffs have
21 expressed to me their concern. It's kind of
22 a catch-22. They have more individuals
23 looking for treatment, but they need more
24 money to provide that treatment.
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1 Has our budget been supportive to make
2 sure that individuals looking for MAT in the
3 prisons are actually having access to it?
4 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
5 thank you for the question, Assemblyman.
6 Certainly as we implemented the law,
7 we've had an increase in patients on
8 medication-assisted treatment. Last year we
9 treated over 7,000 individuals in MAT. And
10 we did fall short in the budget. So this
11 year the Governor has provided an additional
12 $43 million in my budget to support the
13 growth of MAT. So in the proposed budget by
14 the Governor, we will be fully funded for
15 medication-assisted treatment.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN McDONALD: That's great to
17 hear. And once again I appreciate you
18 reaching out to me to talk about it from a
19 pharmacist's perspective as well.
20 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Thank
21 you.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN McDONALD: The only other
23 thing I'll say -- this is really for the
24 group as a whole, and then I'll yield back my
298
1 time -- is that in the proposal the Governor
2 has proposed to basically eliminate the age
3 cap for hiring new law enforcement officers
4 and various other positions. And I want to
5 commend her for that. That is the subject of
6 a bill that I carry in the Assembly.
7 Once having the responsibility 14,
8 15 years ago, I hired dozens and dozens of
9 police officers and it was drilled into me
10 early that once you're making that decision,
11 you need to be very thoughtful that you're
12 giving somebody a gun for 20 years. And it's
13 a serious responsibility.
14 What's been concerning is that over
15 the past several years, not many people are
16 seeking to take the civil service exams. And
17 we've waived every fee known to mankind.
18 I talked to Sheriff Apple, I talked to
19 Chief Geraci in Colonie, and where they used
20 to have several hundred, five, 600 people,
21 maybe 150 are showing up for an exam now. So
22 I think the notion to raise that age and to
23 actually allow people who have got a little
24 more lived experience take on that role I
299
1 think is something that we all should be
2 considering during this budget cycle.
3 So thank you for your testimony.
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Senator Murray.
5 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
6 And thank you all for being here. I
7 appreciate what you do and also for all the
8 folks that serve under you, I very much
9 appreciate what they do.
10 Let me start with Superintendent
11 James, because I've spoken to our local
12 corrections officers and heard from them in
13 regards to hiring and recruiting and being
14 short-staffed. And Tier 6 certainly isn't
15 helping. We need to do something about that
16 as far as helping you hire and recruit.
17 But I also want to talk about burnout
18 and I want to know, are you facing the same
19 thing? Because locally our corrections
20 officers are saying they're going to work and
21 they don't know if they're coming home after
22 eight hours, 16, 24 -- they don't even know.
23 And it's leading to burnout, which is
24 exacerbating the manpower shortage.
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1 Are you facing the same struggles
2 there with that?
3 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: I will tell
4 you, after having gone through, you know,
5 three-plus decades, I can relate. So the
6 short answer is there is an experience that
7 officers do endure. Law enforcement
8 policing is a tough process.
9 But what we have implemented, and we
10 continue to ensure that gets done, is mental
11 health training for our, you know,
12 membership. We're going to reinvigorate that
13 collectively with the unions as well, with
14 their ideas how we can do it better. Before
15 I retired back in -- then it was 2018, I
16 initiated a statewide mental health program.
17 We'll do that, but we're also going to
18 include local and other state agencies.
19 We've done that once before. Certainly
20 whether it's for OVS or other entities that
21 deal with people who are experiencing it.
22 So the short answer is we'll continue,
23 we'll continue that initiative.
24 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay, great.
301
1 And Commissioner Martuscello, so again
2 I agree with you and I think there's no one
3 you'll find that doesn't. What happened at
4 Marcy to Mr. Brooks is just reprehensible and
5 terrible. But as Assemblymember Palmesano
6 brought up, the violence in the prisons is
7 increasing. Inmate on inmate, violence to
8 corrections officers. And I worry about some
9 of the policies being passed here helping to
10 exacerbate that problem, whether it's HALT,
11 whether it's others.
12 Because we hear -- you take away some
13 of the tools as far as dealing with those
14 that are getting out of line or assaulting
15 those, when you take away any kind of
16 punishment or something, what are you left
17 with? And you see the increases.
18 So I guess the answer is -- or the
19 question is, are we adding to the problem
20 with some of the policies that we're
21 initiating?
22 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: You
23 know, that's a difficult thing to answer in
24 and of itself, right? Because, you know,
302
1 while I hear the statistics by the
2 Assemblymember, if you look back over time,
3 even going back 10 years prior to any changes
4 to restricted housing and discipline, they
5 were still on the uprise. Right? They were
6 still going up.
7 SENATOR MURRAY: We'll talk later.
8 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
9 Beephan.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN BEEPHAN: Thank you very
11 much.
12 So I guess I'll start with
13 Commissioner Martuscello. Thank you for
14 being here today.
15 I think you spoke about body cameras
16 earlier. In your SOPs and in the memos that
17 you've put out, did you ever specify when
18 those cameras are to be turned off, like
19 private reasons, like bathroom time, all that
20 stuff?
21 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
22 thank you for the question. This was
23 actually a subject of much discussion with my
24 unions and my workforce.
303
1 In my December 18th memorandum, I gave
2 strict instructions that the body cameras
3 should be on the minute you receive it,
4 powered on and activated whenever you're
5 interacting with an incarcerated individual.
6 As we know from the investigation
7 around the murder of Mr. Brooks, that there's
8 a recall feature that even when it's not on,
9 it's capturing video. So just two days ago I
10 published a statewide directive, standalone.
11 It replaced the one that was hand-held and
12 body-worn cameras. And in there, through
13 negotiations with the union, now when an
14 employee goes to the restroom, they can power
15 off that camera, right? As part of
16 overlaying of performance metrics, we're able
17 to see how many times that camera's powered
18 off. Right? And so that way we have metrics
19 behind it.
20 And if Dan Martuscello turns it off
21 20 times in the day, maybe that's one day
22 you're not feeling well. If that's every day
23 and you turn it off five times -- and that's
24 the average, right -- we're able to take
304
1 corrective action and have a discussion on
2 why are you continually turning off your
3 camera.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BEEPHAN: Right.
5 Understood.
6 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So we
7 did address that, sir.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN BEEPHAN: Thank you.
9 On the topic of cameras, not to
10 divulge too much public information, but
11 perimeter cameras, I know there's times when
12 they're not always recording, especially in
13 situations where drugs are being thrown over
14 fences.
15 Has there been any discussions about
16 changing how those cameras are set up or
17 activated so it's recording 24/7?
18 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
19 so I'm not going to get into the specifics of
20 the camera, but they're recording. I mean,
21 whether you're actually catching, you know,
22 the football or the handball going over,
23 right, that's a different story.
24 But the cameras are recording.
305
1 ASSEMBLYMAN BEEPHAN: Understood.
2 Earlier this year there was a
3 situation at Fishkill regarding
4 Social Security numbers being disclosed for
5 correction officers and administrative staff.
6 What's the status of that situation right
7 now? And has there been any situations where
8 someone's identity has been compromised?
9 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So we
10 did have a situation where an incarcerated
11 individual had submitted a FOIL request for
12 the names and titles of everyone working at
13 the facility. So every person, from the
14 superintendent on down.
15 Unfortunately, when that list was
16 produced, it did contain Social Security
17 numbers and the FOIL officer did not redact
18 the Social Security numbers. Immediately
19 upon her recognizing her error, she made
20 notice to the superintendent and we were able
21 to retrieve the copy and nothing got outside
22 of the institution.
23 We provided notice, under our policies
24 and procedures, to every employee impacted,
306
1 and we pointed them to the appropriate
2 credit-monitoring just as if when our
3 healthcare information is breached.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BEEPHAN: Do you believe
5 that any copies are still in existence
6 amongst the incarcerated individuals?
7 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: I do
8 not believe so.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN BEEPHAN: Okay. I know
10 you addressed legal mail being brought into
11 the facilities and photocopied. So that
12 cannot be done at this time, as you believe,
13 for legal purposes. Do you have a timeline
14 on when that can be done?
15 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So we
16 are studying what we can do further on legal
17 mail. We've put in an immediate fix in terms
18 of verifying that you actually sent something
19 to your client.
20 We are looking at about a couple of
21 different technologies that we could overlay
22 in the system. But the photocopying of the
23 legal mail itself, it has to be opened in the
24 presence of the incarcerated individual. And
307
1 then what do you do with the original copies
2 of legal mail, right? Immediately destroy
3 it.
4 So we're looking at some other
5 alternatives, but I think that we've put an
6 initial stopgap measure in for right now.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BEEPHAN: Thank you.
8 Moving over to the superintendent,
9 just a quick question, very micro level.
10 Regarding the UAS positions, do you
11 anticipate ever having the lead for that
12 position becoming a tech sergeant or a
13 sergeant in the future?
14 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: The short
15 answer, we'll contemplate it. Certainly we
16 want to have subordinate-level techs trained
17 other than the staff sergeant. And we're
18 hoping to expand that resource. UAS is
19 statewide. Obviously I don't have to mention
20 to you the concern of New Jersey and New York
21 City with the UASes.
22 So the short answer is we are looking
23 to expand that. And we'll need to expand it
24 with personnel.
308
1 ASSEMBLYMAN BEEPHAN: Perfect. Thank
2 you very much, all of you, for your time.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Senator Gustavo Rivera.
5 SENATOR RIVERA: Thank you,
6 Madam Chair.
7 A couple of quick things, since I
8 only have three minutes. Certainly I share
9 all the concerns that have been expressed
10 about Mr. Brooks, and we will be keeping a
11 very close eye to make sure that not only are
12 the people held accountable who committed
13 this crime, but also that the changes that
14 are made are actual, meaningful changes that
15 will actually make sure that this does not
16 happen again.
17 So I'm just going to ask the questions
18 upfront, and then I'll give you the rest of
19 the time for the answer. There's three
20 things. First is on MAT, second is on
21 Medicaid eligibility, and third is on ICE.
22 On MAT, so Medicaid-assisted
23 treatment, we see that rates of injectable
24 buprenorphine increased by 221 percent within
309
1 one year, from July 2023 to July 2024. And
2 there are reports that incarcerated people
3 are pressured to use injectable buprenorphine
4 as a medication for the treatment of
5 substance use disorder. So I wanted you to
6 comment on whether we provide a choice, but
7 it seems like the numbers speak to them being
8 pressured to make that one choice. That's
9 number one.
10 Number two, on Medicaid eligibility.
11 It can currently take up to 45 days
12 post-release to process a Medicaid
13 application for someone who's leaving a
14 correctional facility. So would you be
15 supportive of formerly incarcerated people
16 having active insurance on day one after
17 their release?
18 And number three, on ICE, obviously
19 we're talking about Immigration and Customs
20 Enforcement. We are seeing what's happening
21 around the country. I want to make sure that
22 on the record you can provide assurances that
23 New York jails will not be used to hold
24 undocumented immigrants unless they're
310
1 primarily being held on a pending local
2 criminal charge, which would be the only time
3 that sort of thing is allowable.
4 So take the rest of the time to answer
5 those, if you could, please.
6 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
7 Sorry. On MAT, as I mentioned, we serve over
8 7,000 people. We offer all forms of
9 medication-assisted treatment, and now we've
10 included the monthly injection.
11 So yeah, it's a discussion between the
12 physician and the patient as to what suits
13 them. Obviously if they're returning to a
14 county where there's no methadone clinics,
15 that's not something the doctor's going to
16 push them towards. But that's part of that
17 discussion. If we do see people that are
18 diverting, rather than take them off, we give
19 them other options like the injections.
20 But it is totally a discussion between
21 the clinician and the patient.
22 SENATOR RIVERA: On Medicaid?
23 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: On
24 Medicaid, I'm proud that last year, of the
311
1 releasees, 88 percent returned to the
2 community, enrolled in Medicaid. I was at
3 the federal level advocating last year to try
4 to change what's a qualifying event. Because
5 leaving incarceration --
6 SENATOR RIVERA: On ICE? I only have
7 15 seconds.
8 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Okay.
9 And ICE, yeah, we're not using any of our
10 facilities to hold any immigrant --
11 immigration status individuals, other than if
12 they've been convicted of a felony in
13 New York. And then if they have -- if ICE
14 have a detainer, they're serving the New York
15 sentence.
16 SENATOR RIVERA: Thank you.
17 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: That
18 was speed round.
19 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Ra.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
21 Regarding retail theft, the State
22 Police testimony said we've had 688 people
23 arrested on 1100 charges. Do you have any
24 data as to were those predominantly, you
312
1 know, bigger box stores that we've seen a
2 lot, or are a lot of them smaller stores? Do
3 you have any data regarding the breakdown of
4 that?
5 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Yes. Thank
6 you for your question.
7 And the latter is true, it is -- we
8 call it organized retail theft for a reason,
9 because we've found that it is the bigger box
10 stores. We work with the national retailers,
11 we've worked with their inventory
12 specialists. When we have a search warrant
13 of a seizure, we invite them in. They're
14 able to track, through technology -- bar
15 coding -- the origin and the history of this
16 merchandise. So we're able to track that
17 down.
18 But notice how I didn't mention
19 smash-and-grabs. We have pretty much -- I'm
20 not going to say it's gone away, but the
21 bigger genesis is the organized retail theft.
22 In Queens County we had a spin-off
23 case, a result of a road trooper being
24 observant. It culminated into a seize of
313
1 property in a vehicle, and $2 million in
2 recovered stolen property. And in excess of
3 $200,000 in currency.
4 So there are other cases that are
5 still in the pipeline in that regard, but
6 we're finding that they're mainly the larger,
7 more organized type of crimes.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And any sense in
9 terms of recidivism with regard to those
10 arrests, of those that were arrested?
11 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: In Oneida
12 County there were several. And that dealt
13 with an individual who formerly worked for
14 the big box store who had friends or
15 alliances. And it did result in multiple
16 arrests with that individual.
17 But as far as statewide, what we're
18 finding is it hasn't been a recidivism issue
19 with the individuals that we've been
20 arresting.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
22 And I think this is maybe more for
23 DCJS, but just in terms of what strategies,
24 if you could detail that, are working with
314
1 engaging the local communities as we're
2 dealing with the retail theft and obviously
3 the funding that was put forth last year.
4 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yeah. I
5 think, you know, one is stepping up kind of
6 the enforcement side of it. The other one,
7 the Governor had proposed the retail security
8 tax credit.
9 And then to kind of go back to and
10 build off of the superintendent's remarks, I
11 think we've seen remarkable progress, through
12 our Crime Analysis Centers, in engaging big
13 box retailers and also smaller mom-and-pop
14 shops, to be able to kind of report.
15 So what we're working on this year is
16 really setting up a community of practice
17 among retailers, where they can share
18 information or that law enforcement can
19 distribute information to make sure that
20 there's consistent messaging.
21 So in my example before around kind of
22 a Thruway-organized kind of criminal element,
23 in that instance, if we had a -- kind of set
24 up a community of practice, we'd be able to
315
1 do push notifications to retailers to be on
2 the lookout for this kind of a pattern of
3 behavior.
4 So I think we're making significant
5 inroads with our partnership with the
6 State Police and with local law enforcement.
7 And I think, you know, the retailers are part
8 of the solution here too.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: And with regard to
10 the subway crime initiative and the
11 $77 million for New York City, any sense of
12 how we plan to measure the success of this?
13 And if it is successful, what happens
14 after the six months? Is there a plan to
15 continue that if it's successfully, you know,
16 prevents a lot of the things that we've been
17 seeing?
18 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: As I said
19 before, I think, you know, we're always
20 measuring data, and the Governor has been
21 focused on this.
22 So we do anticipate that there will be
23 kind of a report out on what's happening with
24 subway crime on the platforms in metro areas,
316
1 what's happening with arrest activity, what's
2 happening with certain indicators.
3 Then in terms of an evaluation, you
4 know, afterward we'll be able to look at
5 whether the surge had the intended effect.
6 If it did, then I think the conversations
7 would be between New York City and the
8 New York State Division of Budget on how that
9 could become, you know, more permanent. But
10 that's outside the scope of the DCJS budget.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Stec.
13 SENATOR STEC: Thank you, Chair.
14 Commissioner, I've got seven
15 correctional facilities in my legislative
16 district. I used to have 10 when I first
17 become Senator. That's the most of any
18 legislator.
19 I only have three minutes, so I'm
20 going to share my questions and concerns and
21 I'll ask you to answer what you can and then
22 please follow up in writing later with what
23 you can't.
24 It's been a rough three months for
317
1 your department. You had the inmate death in
2 December at Marcy, unexpected series of
3 exposures and ER visits at Upstate
4 Correctional in my district and other places,
5 which is a contraband issue. You had a memo
6 dated this past Monday, February 10th --
7 incorrectly, 2024. I think that's a typo --
8 directing a 30 percent reduction in staffing
9 at all facilities across the board. And just
10 yesterday you lost control of two dorms at
11 Collins in Western New York, also reportedly
12 contraband driven.
13 My questions are, first, I asked for
14 data on ambulance or emergency run visits in
15 light of what happened in Malone, and I was
16 told by your department that it doesn't
17 exist. I'd asked why and, going forward, can
18 we start collecting that data.
19 You said that you purchased 88 body
20 scanners in the 2023 budget for a cost of
21 $11 million. Are all of them installed and
22 operational? And obviously the question I
23 have is why are they optional? It's not
24 optional if you want to get on a plane at the
318
1 TSA to say, No, I don't want to be scanned.
2 Why aren't we using a true secure
3 vendor program, as other states do? The
4 third-party sellers through Amazon and
5 Walmart, a lot of them are just fronts,
6 they're easy to counterfeit. It's a joke. I
7 would not call what we have a secure vendor
8 program.
9 Was the substance involved in Upstate
10 on January 20th found? Was it identified?
11 And does DOCCS believe, as some have said,
12 that the two dozen people that went to the
13 emergency room that night are all suffering
14 some -- from some -- experiencing a mass
15 delusion?
16 How the hell does DOCCS lose control
17 of a prison yesterday?
18 And then my final question is was it
19 coincidental that on Monday, this past
20 Monday, just three days after NYSCOPBA voted
21 "no confidence" on your leadership, that you
22 made this announcement for a 30 percent
23 reduction in staffing? Are we going to
24 reduce visitation by 30 percent? Are we
319
1 going to reduce programming by 30 percent or
2 inmate movement by 30 percent? Why don't we
3 just eliminate 30 percent of the penal code
4 or cut 30 percent off of everyone's sentences
5 if that's our approach?
6 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yes,
7 Senator, thank you for your rapid-fire
8 questions. I don't know that we'll get to
9 them all, but let's start with Collins.
10 I think we have some inaccurate
11 information being reported in the media. On
12 the early morning hours yesterday, a sergeant
13 encountered multiple individuals in one cube.
14 When he engaged them, the individual ran from
15 the sergeant. They followed him to a
16 bathroom. A use of force ensued, and they
17 wound up finding two contraband cellphones.
18 Other incarcerated people on the dorm
19 became agitated because they didn't
20 understand why the force was being used, why
21 they were chasing the individual. And the
22 staff on scene, including that sergeant, did
23 a great job in deescalating that situation
24 and resolved it, and everyone went back to
320
1 their cubes.
2 Later that morning there was a
3 potential threat that staff identified, and
4 as a result they left the dorms. We actually
5 didn't lose the dorms, they walked off of the
6 dorms because of perceived threat. There was
7 no --
8 SENATOR STEC: Has that happened
9 before? When was the last time that we had a
10 situation where there was no adult
11 supervision in the dorms?
12 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Well,
13 the staff remained outside of the dorm
14 itself --
15 SENATOR STEC: They barricaded
16 themselves in.
17 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: They
18 did not barricade themselves in. That is not
19 true. I was on-site at that facility
20 yesterday, the incarcerated remained
21 communicative with the people on the other
22 side of the door that we locked. Right? And
23 we were in constant communication with those
24 individuals.
321
1 So a lot of false narratives around
2 that.
3 SENATOR STEC: Thank you for
4 clarifying that. Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Assembly.
7 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
8 Burdick.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Thank you.
10 And Commissioner Martuscello, thank
11 you for your testimony and also for your part
12 on the heat mitigation plan bill, which the
13 Governor signed in December. Your
14 willingness to make it work is really
15 appreciated.
16 I have two questions. I'll give them
17 both at the same time.
18 Further to Senator Salazar's question
19 regarding Marcy, I appreciate the
20 investigation that you described. But to
21 what extent will it examine systemic issues
22 in the culture in the state's correctional
23 facilities?
24 My second question is I know that you
322
1 support the work of rehabilitation through
2 the arts and other programs that accelerate
3 rehabilitation and lead to reentry sooner
4 than otherwise, and with much lower
5 recidivism rates than the average. And of
6 course there are vital vocational programs.
7 I'd appreciate you letting us know
8 your vision and plans for expanding these
9 programs to facilities that don't have them
10 or have fewer than others.
11 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
12 thank you for your questions.
13 As part of the Marcy incident and the
14 review, we've taken a number of steps at the
15 Governor's direction. We've hired an
16 independent firm to come in and do a pattern
17 and practice assessment as well as a cultural
18 assessment, and that's already underway. The
19 firm has met with me, every member of my exec
20 team, they're looking at our policies, our
21 procedures, our training curriculum, they've
22 been to Marcy Correctional Facility for two
23 days, and they're going to other institutions
24 to exactly examine the culture.
323
1 We've also launched a partnership with
2 Chicago Beyond, which is dealing with
3 holistic safety, where we bring all parties
4 together -- administrators, advocates,
5 incarcerated people, unions and staff -- to
6 work on safety and the culture --
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: I'm sorry to
8 interrupt, but it would be at every one of
9 the correctional facilities?
10 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
11 Again, so they're doing a sampling and
12 they're going to --
13 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Oh, I see.
14 Okay.
15 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: The
16 law firm's going to do a public report, which
17 then we can adopt the practices and make sure
18 that we're handling any systemic issues.
19 Chicago Beyond's at two facilities,
20 but the intent would be to spread everywhere.
21 And then, lastly, we're working with
22 Amend --
23 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Actually, the
24 second question, if you could.
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1 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Okay,
2 the second one. Rehabilitation Through the
3 Arts. I am wholly supportive of
4 Rehabilitation Through the Arts. They
5 actually just recently named a new executive
6 director who was formerly incarcerated,
7 graduated through our college programs doing
8 wonderful work.
9 But we definitely want to expand that.
10 I've had conversations. We are in contract
11 negotiations, so --
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: And there's
13 other programs like it you're also trying to
14 expand as well to other facilities?
15 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
16 we've expanded Puppies Behind Bars, and
17 working with Exodus on Project Build and
18 we're actually working on a trauma-informed
19 care, but for incarcerated and staff, through
20 Exodus that we're looking at.
21 So yeah, those are all things that I'm
22 very supportive of.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN BURDICK: Well, thank you
24 for your vision on that. Greatly needed.
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1 Thanks so much.
2 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Thank
3 you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator
5 Hoylman-Sigal.
6 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair.
8 I wanted to ask the DCJS
9 representative -- thank you, sir, for being
10 here -- about the Securing Communities
11 Against Hate Crime grants that are awarded.
12 This year the Governor included $35 million
13 in her Executive Budget. That's the same
14 amount that was requested last year. I just
15 want to point out that, you know, hate crimes
16 have -- this is not news to you, I'm sure.
17 Hate crimes have been increasing. They
18 increased 59.3 percent between 2023 and 2019.
19 And from 2024, through the previous year,
20 there's been 137 percent year-over-year
21 increase in reported antisemitic incidents.
22 I was wondering why the Governor
23 decided to ask for the same amount. Does the
24 Governor's office believe that the
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1 $35 million is sufficient to meet the needs
2 of securing communities against hate crimes?
3 And secondly, how many applications
4 has DCJS had to deny for lack of funding? I
5 have one here that I'm looking at that
6 Senator Salazar and I sent out on behalf of a
7 historic synagogue that was trying to protect
8 a Jewish cemetery in Brooklyn that dates back
9 close to 200 years. But they're very fearful
10 of attacks on that property.
11 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Thank you
12 very much -- and it's good to see you
13 again -- for the questions.
14 So the Governor's $35 million, last
15 year was actually an increase because there
16 was a $10 million carveout for reproductive
17 health centers, which was moved from DCJS to
18 DOH. So the $35 million last year and the
19 $35 million that's proposed this year is in a
20 record level for the administration.
21 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: So it's in
22 effect a $10 million increase, is that what
23 you're saying?
24 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yeah, I'm
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1 saying last year what it looked like on paper
2 was that it was actually a $10 million
3 increase, to kind of be proportional to what
4 was being seen to --
5 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Okay, that's
6 good news and I appreciate the clarification.
7 In my time remaining, could you -- are
8 you able to share with my colleagues DCJS's
9 rejections of applications for the Securing
10 Communities Against Hate Crime grants?
11 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So we
12 don't make a list public because it creates a
13 security vulnerability because all --
14 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: I'm talking
15 about members of the Legislature.
16 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: If there's
17 a specific organization, we can certainly
18 drill down on that, the reasons for the
19 application.
20 I will say in December we awarded
21 $64 million to 336 organizations. It was the
22 largest grant. And that was the largest, you
23 know, single grant that we had done ever. We
24 also --
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1 SENATOR HOYLMAN-SIGAL: Let me just
2 make a final pitch in my few seconds
3 remaining, which is I think you should look
4 at not just non-for-profits but for-profit
5 entities, namely LGBTQ-owned bars and
6 restaurants, which have been targeted for
7 several years.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry, I have to
9 cut you off. Thank you.
10 Assembly.
11 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
12 Walsh.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALSH: Thank you very
14 much. And I'd like to follow up on some
15 questioning that Senator Palumbo started a
16 little bit earlier about crime reporting.
17 So it seems that just about every week
18 the Governor is issuing a press release
19 citing preliminary DCJS crime statistics to
20 try to justify her claim that crime is lower
21 than last year or even that it's been in
22 decades.
23 According to the DCJS website, the
24 majority of law enforcement agencies use the
329
1 Uniform Crime Reporting program, or UCR, to
2 send crime data to DCJS, who in turn then
3 forwards it to the FBI.
4 UCR only requires the most serious
5 offense in each crime incident to be counted.
6 So for example, if a robbery, rape and a
7 homicide occurred in the same incident, only
8 the homicide is counted. With the exception
9 of homicide, all other crimes in New York
10 State are undercounted.
11 So two-part question. Do you agree
12 with the Bureau of Justice National Crime
13 Victimization Survey that most crimes go
14 unreported, with only about 45 percent of
15 violent crimes and 30 percent of property
16 crimes being reported to the police?
17 And second, how can we then believe
18 the Governor's claims that crime is down when
19 she uses preliminary crime data that only
20 counts the most serious crime per incident in
21 addition to the reality that most crimes go
22 unreported?
23 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So the
24 National Crime Victimization Survey shows
330
1 remarkable stability in the sense that
2 roughly half of crimes are reported, to your
3 question, but that has been stable for a
4 number of years. And again, we need to do
5 more in terms of law enforcement in terms of
6 building that trust so that people report the
7 crimes that are committed upon them.
8 But to answer your second question,
9 the transition to NIBRS, the National
10 Incident-Based Reporting System, is well
11 underway. We have 195 agencies that are
12 using that, and that now covers 80 percent of
13 all reported crime in the State of New York.
14 And that is a much more sophisticated type of
15 analysis that breaks apart the different
16 types of crimes that might be, you know,
17 commingled, to use one expression, when
18 reported.
19 And so I have great confidence in our
20 crime reporting program. I think it leads
21 the country. And the Governor is always
22 trying to ask what are the indicators, you
23 know, how are we doing, how are we measuring
24 whether it's subway crime of others.
331
1 So we use a gun violence reported from
2 our gun involved violence elimination
3 programs to kind of look at shooting data.
4 We look at the same shooting data for our
5 SNUG zones. And that gives us a good kind of
6 sense of where violent crime, particularly
7 involving firearms, is trending. And then we
8 use the UCR and NIBRS programs to be able to
9 look at and accurately compile timely,
10 accurate information on crime, and then
11 report it.
12 And we're reporting it on our website,
13 too. So as you mentioned, we have developed
14 a bunch of new dashboards. They're lagged,
15 typically, by two quarters, because the 550
16 law enforcement agencies have three months to
17 send them in. Then we make sure that there's
18 no errors or omission, and then they're
19 posted to our website thereafter.
20 And so -- love crime reporting. I do
21 think it's essential to us measuring public
22 safety in the State of New York.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Our next Senator is Senator Cordell
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1 Cleare.
2 SENATOR CLEARE: Good afternoon,
3 Commissioner.
4 I think anyone who saw the murder of
5 Robert Brooks is traumatized, and you have to
6 forgive me, because it is affecting me, it
7 still affects me to see that kind of hate and
8 that kind of violence executed by people who
9 are there to uphold the law and those who are
10 there to maintain the health of individuals.
11 I want to ask you, there's money being
12 asked for more cameras, body-cams. But in
13 this case, cameras were worn. What is the
14 penalty, if any, for someone turning their
15 camera off?
16 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So as I
17 mentioned, right now we have to go through
18 the collective bargaining agreement in terms
19 of penalties for progressive discipline. So
20 when we have policies and procedures, when we
21 find that employees violate those things, we
22 then evaluate those and issue notices of
23 discipline.
24 It does go through the arbitration
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1 process, where an independent arbiter
2 recommend -- not recommends, they make the
3 final determination on what --
4 SENATOR CLEARE: Has anyone been
5 penalized for not wearing their cameras? Has
6 that happened yet?
7 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yes, it
8 has.
9 SENATOR CLEARE: Okay, I'd like to see
10 what has happened to those individuals, and
11 what is the penalty for not doing that,
12 because the price has been over the years the
13 lives of so many people. This is not the
14 first time. Samuel Harrell, so many other
15 individuals have reportedly been beaten to
16 death, punched, kicked, batoned to death by
17 corrections officers. And it continues to
18 happen.
19 This is not a new case, this is the
20 one that everybody's eyes saw. But we know
21 that this has happened over time. So is
22 there going to be a lookback into these cases
23 so that these families can get justice? John
24 McMillan, Terry Cooper, Carl Taylor. Black
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1 man after Black man killed by corrections.
2 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, I'm
3 familiar with some if not all of those cases.
4 And each time that there's a death in
5 custody, it's investigated independently by
6 the Attorney General's office, the State
7 Police, as well as the SCOC. And then
8 obviously a medical ruling by the medical
9 examiner.
10 So through those investigations we
11 take appropriate action. And certainly in
12 this case we've revealed that there was a
13 murder of Mr. Brooks, and those people will
14 be held fully accountable.
15 SENATOR CLEARE: Is there any thought
16 in making sure that there is some kind of
17 racial bias penalty against people? Some of
18 these cases, racial slurs were being
19 mentioned throughout the entire beating. And
20 people have done it, as you heard, CANY
21 reported that those slurs are used. This is
22 an indication that there is racial bias. And
23 these people should not be in charge of the
24 population.
335
1 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yes, so we
2 have a zero-tolerance policy with racial
3 bias, right, or against LGBTQ. So if we find
4 anybody that's partaking in that, we issue
5 discipline. And we actually refer it to the
6 anti-discrimination investigation division --
7 SENATOR CLEARE: I'd like to see your
8 report on that, if you have that.
9 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
10 Assembly.
11 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Otis.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you.
13 A question for Superintendent James.
14 In your testimony you mentioned the
15 expanded cybersecurity work at the State
16 Police. Curious -- very important work, with
17 the threat increasing. For the State Police,
18 what kinds of cases end up coming your way?
19 Are they from institutions, individuals? How
20 is that working?
21 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: We work in
22 conjunction. It's a task force as well, J --
23 joint terrorism task force. So it could be
24 local. You know, it could be from a county.
336
1 We don't restrict it per se.
2 Fortunately, with the benefit of
3 working with the task force, it's a force
4 multiplier. If there's cases such as a
5 threat -- there's various panelists here who
6 have endured that -- we do a threat
7 assessment, right, of that information coming
8 in.
9 So we don't limit in that regard. We
10 work with the FBI on this quite closely. And
11 therein why we ask for more resources, so we
12 can expand our footprint in doing this type
13 of work.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: So are more
15 typically at the State Police going to get
16 that kind of event as opposed to an
17 individual cyber theft with an individual
18 type situation? Or do you get those also?
19 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: We do get
20 the independent ones as well. If there is an
21 email sent, a threat to a dignitary,
22 obviously we conduct the criminal
23 investigation, we work with the vendors of
24 the IP addresses, right. We get that, we get
337
1 the subpoenas, we work cases.
2 There are cases that are emanating
3 from out of state. The -- En Con,
4 unfortunately, when they dealt with the
5 squirrel matter, we worked with them. It
6 lasted for weeks. And it really ramped up.
7 It got to be pretty serious because then the
8 commissioner at that time was enduring, you
9 know, various threats. So we did take on
10 that case to assist.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: That's great.
12 Sir, look forward to working with you
13 post-today and talk more about cybersecurity
14 and the State Police involvement and help.
15 Thank you very much.
16 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Likewise.
17 Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Senator Gonzalez.
19 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Thank you,
20 Chairwoman.
21 And thank you all for being here today
22 and for your testimony. My questions are
23 directed to the DOCCS commissioner. Again,
24 thank you for being here.
338
1 The death of Robert Brooks was
2 horrific. And it shook so, so many of us to
3 our core. As you heard from Senator Cleare,
4 it is something that my constituents and many
5 of us who are here as elected representatives
6 are going to live with the rest of our lives.
7 As you've heard from the family of
8 Robert Brooks, justice looks like policy
9 change. And it looks like making sure that
10 this does not happen again. And so my
11 question is very simple. In ensuring that
12 this doesn't happen again, are you collecting
13 data points across your correctional
14 facilities on staff complaints and
15 identifying trends, or particular facilities
16 that are seeing a rise in the number of
17 complaints?
18 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
19 so we collect data from a number of data
20 points. And with the Governor's investment
21 in the Office of Special Investigations, it
22 will allow me to get ahead of that trend to
23 make sure that we're mitigating risk and
24 identify it at the lowest level all the way
339
1 to systemically throughout the organization.
2 I also think the independent review by
3 this law firm on pattern and practice and
4 recommendations in moving forward is going to
5 be critical to our cultural shift and making
6 sure that we're ridding the system of anybody
7 that thinks that this is even remotely,
8 remotely acceptable behavior. As well as
9 making sure that we're supporting the people
10 that want to do the right thing each and
11 every day.
12 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Absolutely. I
13 think transparency and knowing the types of
14 complaints, knowing when they're happening
15 and then a year-to-year analysis would be
16 helpful in reassuring our constituents that
17 this is being addressed and we are seeing a
18 decrease.
19 So just very briefly, have we seen an
20 increase in recent years or a decrease?
21 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So we
22 have had an increase in overall cases to the
23 Office of Special Investigations. Last year
24 they had over 14,000 cases that they had
340
1 taken on through OSI.
2 As we get more avenues for people to
3 make complaints and they feel more
4 comfortable in doing so, we see continued
5 increases. Which again, with the expansion
6 of OSI, making sure that we're handling every
7 one centrally.
8 I've also implemented a few other
9 things where I'm embedding OSI at every
10 facility so that they're there in the
11 institutions. And they're also, every two
12 months, meeting with every incarcerated
13 liaison committee with no facility
14 representation in the room. Right? So that
15 way the incarcerated at that institution can
16 speak directly to OSI with no fear of
17 retaliation or fear of what they're saying or
18 who's listening.
19 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Certainly
20 appreciate your responsiveness and answers.
21 Would you be willing to share some of those
22 reports with the Legislature?
23 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Sure.
24 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Great. Thank you
341
1 so much.
2 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Thank
3 you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly.
5 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
6 Giglio.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Thank you,
8 Chairman. And thank you all for being here.
9 So my question has to deal with
10 Medicaid prior to release also, and
11 qualifying people for Medicaid when they've
12 been incarcerated for many years and they may
13 not have a home address or a driver's license
14 or something that they need in order to get
15 Medicaid, especially if they're incarcerated
16 and they have mental health or co-occurring
17 disorders, substance abuse, and getting them
18 the reentry and the medication that they need
19 to become a productive member of society.
20 So I know in Suffolk County that's a
21 big challenge, and releasing people and not
22 knowing where they're going to go to get
23 their medications. And -- so we'll start
24 with that.
342
1 And then also if you could just touch
2 base on the people that are incarcerated that
3 maybe should be in hospitals because they
4 have mental health or co-occurring disorders
5 that you can't necessarily treat in the jail
6 system -- but the Governor's proposal for
7 involuntary committing to hospitals and how
8 that would affect the availability of beds
9 for incarcerated individuals.
10 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, so
11 thank you for your questions.
12 In terms of Medicaid, right, the
13 instant a person comes into our custody we
14 work on procuring their documents. Two years
15 ago in the Governor's budget, which became
16 the enacted budget, we changed the section of
17 law. Originally it allowed me as -- when
18 somebody's incarcerated, to receive their
19 birth certificate free of charge. But it
20 allowed cooperation on behalf of the
21 individual.
22 And sometimes people are like, I have
23 that at home, we don't need to get it. So it
24 allowed now for the sentencing commitment to
343
1 be used for us to ascertain their birth
2 certificate.
3 That was proof enough to the federal
4 government for a Social Security card, where
5 prior to, they would only allow me to get it
6 90 days prior to release. Once we showed our
7 commitment to documents, they allowed me to
8 back that up in my MOU to 180 days.
9 I also have a partnership with DMV
10 where I have DMV stations in every one of our
11 facilities. When we have the documents, we
12 have a point system and we transmit it to DMV
13 and we're issuing non-driver IDs. We issued
14 over 1800 last year.
15 So 88 percent of the population we
16 released returned to the community with
17 Medicaid when they went back.
18 Also, in terms of medication, we
19 release incarcerated people with a supply of
20 medication. So we bridge that continuity gap
21 to make sure that they're maintained on their
22 medication and that they have services.
23 Where they need other services, like
24 methadone, we have a discharge planning unit
344
1 in terms of handing off to the community.
2 When it comes to mental health, a
3 third of my population is on the mental
4 health caseload, a little over 9800, with
5 1800 having serious mental health illnesses,
6 SMIs.
7 Embedded in our institutions, pursuant
8 to state law, the Office of Mental Health
9 provides services. We have specialized beds
10 inside of our facilities that they utilize.
11 So the proposal that the Governor has
12 advanced with OMH will have no effect on my
13 population. If there is a need, they can
14 transfer to Central New York Psych Center.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Thank you.
16 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Thank
17 you, ma'am.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Senator Bynoe.
20 SENATOR BYNOE: Thank you,
21 Madam Chair.
22 My question is for the commissioner of
23 Corrections. Are you -- I know you're
24 engaging with consultants. And so my
345
1 question is whether they are looking at an
2 early intervention system that would identify
3 officers that might be susceptible to
4 misconduct or negative outcomes.
5 And if you have the system, please
6 explain to me what indicators you're using to
7 identify those officers.
8 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, so
9 two things.
10 The independent review is doing a
11 holistic review independently. So they're
12 looking at everything. There is nothing that
13 is off-limits to this review. They're really
14 doing a systemic review from a pattern and
15 practice, as well as looking at how we're
16 tracking things, how we're identifying
17 trends. So that will be a very transparent
18 report once they're complete.
19 Secondarily, as I mentioned in my
20 previous testimony, with our Office of
21 Special Investigations there's funding in
22 this budget, $7.2 million, to expand OSI,
23 which is also expanding the analytic aspects
24 of OSI to identify trends right down to the
346
1 employee, where they have numerous
2 misconducts, so we can intervene early.
3 We do this now, but it's more
4 reactionary. I want to be ahead of that and
5 have indicators early so we can avoid
6 misconduct and intervene in the first
7 instance, whether it's new training or
8 discipline, whatever that may be.
9 And lastly, I really want to utilize
10 my research staff to really then put together
11 all the dots for us, right? I have a lot of
12 data available, and I do a lot of analysis on
13 the population and meeting their needs. I
14 want to make sure that that unit also has all
15 of the data to put together a very
16 comprehensive picture.
17 SENATOR BYNOE: Thank you.
18 So there's a model already out there
19 specific for policing regarding early
20 intervention systems, and it's highly
21 renowned throughout the nation. So please,
22 I'd ask that you research that and consider
23 employing that.
24 With the little time I have left, I'd
347
1 like you to answer some questions regarding
2 educational programs in the jail that would
3 reduce recidivism and optimize outcomes for
4 those that are being reacclimated into the
5 community.
6 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
7 I'm a very strong supporter of education
8 within the correctional system. It's really
9 the great equalizer.
10 We have a great partnership with
11 30 different providers providing college
12 programs in 38 of our prisons, and soon to be
13 all 41 prisons. Separating out Edgecombe,
14 because that's for releasees.
15 We have a great partnership with
16 Bard College, Hudson Link, SUNY. We offer
17 associate's degrees, bachelor's degrees. We
18 have master's degree programs.
19 For those that aren't interested in
20 college or don't have that level of
21 education, we have one of the highest rates
22 of GED passing.
23 We have 27 different vocational
24 programs, including barbering and
348
1 cosmetology, which are licensing. Twelve
2 apprenticeship programs. We can talk more.
3 SENATOR BYNOE: Thank you. We will.
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
5 Walker.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you,
7 Mr. Commissioner.
8 So I was also wondering with respect
9 to the number of potential and previous
10 beatings that have taken place within the
11 correctional facilities, is there a
12 whistleblower policy for another officer who
13 may know of someone who just has a propensity
14 towards this type of treatment towards people
15 who are incarcerated?
16 And what is that policy? And can you
17 make it available for review?
18 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, I
19 recently just issued a whistleblower policy
20 to all staff throughout the agency. And
21 we're going to be converting that to a
22 permanent department directive. And I'd be
23 glad to share it with your office.
24 But again, it's widespread. We made
349
1 sure every single staff person got a copy of
2 the policy. And there's requirements in our
3 employee's manual, a duty to intervene and a
4 duty to report misconduct. So that's already
5 embedded in our policies.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you.
7 So if there is retaliation of a
8 whistleblower, is there a policy that's in
9 place to deal with any retaliation by fellow
10 colleagues?
11 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Again,
12 that's covered in the whistleblower policy
13 but also in the laws of the State of New York
14 in terms of protecting whistleblowers.
15 So there's a variety of avenues that
16 someone can go to if they are retaliated
17 against -- including us, which we would then
18 investigate and take appropriate conduct,
19 including referrals to other agencies if
20 necessary.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Awesome.
22 I want to ask about the interstate
23 compact. You know I love that. For folks
24 who want to be closer to their family
350
1 members, how is that policy determined? Are
2 there any exceptions? Is there ever an
3 opportunity for New York State to take a look
4 at its interstate compact with other states
5 and prisons?
6 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So the way
7 the interstate compact works -- and I know my
8 office has had some discussions with yours on
9 this -- is that the current entity or the
10 current state has to initiate the request.
11 Right? So that's a first and primary
12 objective. And then the receiving state has
13 to be willing to accept.
14 I haven't taken anybody on an
15 interstate compact I think in the history
16 that I'm aware of. I think that we've had
17 one individual from another state that has
18 come through the interstate compact.
19 I'm focused on the people that are
20 sentenced in New York that are serving a
21 sentence in New York, not people that have
22 committed crimes in other states, the benefit
23 to us as that state, and then the amount of
24 people that that can potentially open us up
351
1 to getting a request for. And then how do
2 you pick and choose who you're allowing and
3 who you're not?
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Okay, thank
5 you.
6 So I know you mentioned the DMV
7 stations and IDs. And the thing that I love
8 about DMV is the connection to voting and
9 registering to vote. So one of the things
10 that we're considering is voting -- having
11 polling locations within many of the jails
12 around the State of New York.
13 Can we talk at a point later about
14 implementation of that policy?
15 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Of course
16 we can. I don't oversee jails. We can still
17 talk.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Yes, thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 I think I'm the last Senator for the
21 first round. So thank you, gentlemen, for
22 being here so long.
23 So, let's see, starting with the
24 State Police. So now we're giving birth to
352
1 babies on the subways so maybe we won't need
2 you as much anymore, so -- thought I would
3 just share some good news about the MTA.
4 Second, for Corrections. So at an
5 earlier hearing -- I've been at them all, so
6 they're all in my brain -- there was a
7 discussion about the fact that the City of
8 New York says it needs 500 more forensic beds
9 because they have so many people in the jails
10 that have been determined not to be able to
11 come to trial because of their mental status.
12 And I'm curious if you have an
13 estimate of how many you think are statewide
14 in the state and I guess local jails.
15 Because that seemed like a very large number
16 that I don't think we're going to solve right
17 away, and I'm just curious whether you're
18 seeing this also.
19 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
20 unfortunately I'm not familiar with those
21 numbers.
22 I only interact with the jails in New
23 York City once somebody is sentenced and they
24 become state-ready and we take them into
353
1 custody, or in a very specific provision of
2 Correction Law where it's a substitute jail
3 order where they can't safely house the
4 individual and I can.
5 But otherwise, I wouldn't have that.
6 State Commission of Corrections may have
7 access to that data.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. I would
9 appreciate your following up, because I think
10 it's the State Department of Mental Health
11 who's supposed to be responsible for the
12 forensic centers, but -- and they talked
13 about trying to create 127 -- no, they
14 started -- they -- excuse me. They talked
15 about increasing staffing for the existing
16 facilities, but not growing the beds or the
17 facilities.
18 And I think a lot of the discussion
19 today about worst-case stories in our jails,
20 state or local, are the fact that they are
21 ending up simply the places where we house
22 mentally ill people. And it's a really bad
23 model for housing mentally ill people.
24 Going to you, Deputy Commissioner. So
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1 also at a previous hearing there was much
2 discussion about the Raise the Age programs.
3 And in fact in your testimony you're talking
4 about all these goals of your commission --
5 of your agency to try to invest in
6 community-based programs, particularly among
7 youth, so that they don't end up transferring
8 to these two gentlemen's systems as often.
9 So during the hearing on I believe
10 maybe Mental Health, the city brought up --
11 mostly because they were texting to me,
12 saying the State of New York still owes us
13 $800 million for running Raise the Age
14 programs, and we can't possibly be having the
15 outcomes we need when we can't get the money
16 from the state.
17 And then, because I multitask, I
18 learned that there's this odd statute
19 under -- from Andrew Cuomo that if you have
20 not proved you stay below your 2 percent
21 property tax cap -- a completely different
22 discussion in law -- then you're not eligible
23 to get this money.
24 Well, it seems to me we're damned if
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1 we do, damned if we don't. If we believe
2 that Raise the Age was an important model and
3 was going to result in fewer young people
4 ending up having to be picked up by our
5 police for crimes and perhaps ultimately
6 ending up in the DOCCS system, we want to
7 make sure we are delivering on our
8 investment.
9 Has this issue come to you?
10 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yes.
11 (Laughter.)
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And what are we
13 going to do about it?
14 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Raise the
15 Age is near and dear to my heart, having
16 worked on it in the Governor's office and
17 worked on implementation. And, you know, as
18 you articulated, it's set up to avoid people
19 getting automatically sent to the adult
20 criminal justice system.
21 With regard to funding, the way that
22 the -- that provision of law was set up was
23 to really reassure the counties -- at the
24 time the counties were very reluctant about
356
1 supporting Raise the Age, given the potential
2 burden on their systems. And so Raise the
3 Age covers the marginal costs associated with
4 implementing Raise the Age.
5 And the structure for the $250 million
6 is that every county has the ability to
7 submit a plan. That plan is then reviewed by
8 OCFS, DCJS, and to a lesser extent the
9 State Commission on Corrections, to make sure
10 it's proportional to the youth that are
11 within their juvenile justice system. And
12 then we provide the funding to them. That
13 has continued and has been relatively
14 seamless.
15 But the difficulty becomes what we
16 talked about before, how do you move beyond
17 the county to support cities, community-based
18 organizations that are really trying to drive
19 change on the ground?
20 And I think that's where DCJS has seen
21 dramatic success through Project Rise or the
22 SNUG programs, where we've gone into the
23 communities, set the table and said, Here's
24 $2 million, and the only requirement is that
357
1 the community has to decide where it goes and
2 you have to pass through a minimum of
3 25 percent to mom-and-pops who have never
4 gotten state dollars.
5 We really recognize that
6 community-based organizations are the
7 fourth branch of government. They're the
8 ones who are going to be providing these
9 services to youth and families that keep them
10 away from these systems.
11 So I think we have kind of perfected
12 our model and are supporting more investments
13 there this year. The Governor included
14 $10 million for a neighborhood action safety
15 plan in the Bronx and kind of beyond. And so
16 this is going to be our first pilot of
17 bringing those principles from RISE and SNUG
18 and other community investments to New York
19 City, where they are sorely needed.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So I'm not going
21 to disagree with you about the other
22 investments you're making, although those
23 numbers are still quite small compared to
24 what I believe were the statutory numbers to
358
1 go towards Raise the Age.
2 So are you suggesting that we don't
3 really need Raise the Age and that's not a
4 good use of money?
5 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: No, I
6 would not suggest that at all.
7 I would say that New York City, again,
8 does not seem to meet the statutory
9 definition that you've articulated. I could
10 say that's -- that is true.
11 And I think that youth, no matter
12 where they are, deserve the services that are
13 offered by the Raise the Age funding.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And you would
15 agree that the majority of youth in the
16 Raise the Age programs are in fact in
17 New York City?
18 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: I don't
19 know. I'd have to look at the -- I don't --
20 I would say that we see an increase in
21 intakes, juvenile intakes and adjustments and
22 others, and it's proportionally -- yeah, I'd
23 say it's probably 60 percent New York City.
24 But I'd have to get those numbers to
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1 your office.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. And again,
3 in my research I learned that the city could
4 request a waiver from that 2 percent property
5 tax cap in order to draw down these funds
6 that they believe, and I believe, they've
7 been owed for many years.
8 Would your agency support the waiver
9 request if it came in? Because they admitted
10 they hadn't put in the waiver request.
11 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: I believe
12 that provision of law does not give me that
13 power, nor the commissioner. It gives the
14 director of the Division of Budget that
15 power.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So only the
17 director of Budget. Because I asked the same
18 question of the commissioner of OCFS.
19 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: That is my
20 understanding.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, so we need
22 to deal with that. But we can't blame you.
23 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: I would
24 hope not.
360
1 (Laughter.)
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm going to give
3 up the rest of my minutes. Thank you all
4 very much.
5 Assembly.
6 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Bores.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you for
8 being here.
9 I think I have two quick yes-or-no
10 questions for DCJS, and then questions for
11 the superintendent of State Police.
12 To the executive deputy commissioner,
13 you know the importance of data-run crime,
14 obviously. New York is actually one of the
15 worst states in terms of reporting hate crime
16 data to the national database, NIBRS. We're
17 the ninth-worst in terms of coverage by
18 population, third worst in coverage by
19 precincts. Only 31 percent of our precincts
20 report hate crime data.
21 Bit of a tautological question, but
22 would having more precincts report this data
23 give us a better view on where hate crimes
24 are happening in New York State?
361
1 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So thank
2 you very much for the question.
3 And I came prepared: 195 agencies
4 moved over, and that's 80 percent of crime
5 for NIBRS. And how NIBRS works is that it
6 actually sits in the records management
7 system. And so it removes the guesswork from
8 these crime reports.
9 So if an officer starts to, you know,
10 make an arrest or investigate a crime, any of
11 the elements that would touch the hate crimes
12 statute automatically trigger that hate crime
13 report.
14 So we actually see that in the past
15 12 months, 63 percent of NIBRS reporting
16 agencies did not have a reported hate crime,
17 but that's compared to 79 percent of the
18 summary crime reporting statistics. So it
19 does seem to be that NIBRS is helping us
20 report more hate crime activity.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Wonderful.
22 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: On the
23 summary reporting one -- and I know your time
24 is short -- we do follow up. So if an
362
1 organization is delinquent, we follow up and
2 say: Hey, you have to say "nothing to
3 report."
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Okay.
5 Superintendent, your testimony
6 mentions Governor Hochul's increased funding
7 for the New York State Intelligence Center
8 and the threat of terrorism. That's great.
9 I'm glad we're doing that.
10 But this budget scares my constituents
11 because it also includes 45 million for the
12 Joint Task Force Empire Shield, as per DMNA,
13 which is a 72 percent increase for a force
14 that is just meant to fight terrorism in
15 New York City.
16 Has there been a 72 percent increase
17 in the threat of terrorism to New York City
18 or things outside the bounds of what the
19 State Police can handle?
20 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: No, they're
21 not outside the bounds of what we can handle.
22 But with regard to terrorism, it's not
23 a limited scope. There's transnational
24 terrorism. There's the broader and bigger
363
1 picture that it's always prudent to plan for.
2 You don't wait until you get into the depths
3 of it and then ask --
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Absolutely. How
5 should my constituents react to that
6 72 percent increase? What should we be
7 taking from that?
8 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Good
9 question.
10 I would say obviously it's an
11 investment into the prudent state that -- the
12 steps that the state, federal and local are
13 taking collectively so that we can mitigate,
14 as best we can, any threats to the homeland
15 and beyond.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: That's a sort of
17 one-time increase on special services, on
18 surging salaries. Do you expect that to
19 continue going forward?
20 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: If I could
21 predict what crime would be, it would be
22 easier.
23 But I would say I don't foresee the
24 threats going away with -- as it faced --
364
1 whether it's domestic or transnational. So
2 funding will probably -- a request will
3 probably follow.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you.
5 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Okay?
6 You're welcome.
7 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Meeks.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Thank you. This
9 question is for Commissioner Martuscello.
10 You mentioned earlier your
11 whistleblower policy that you're willing to
12 share with us. These individuals aren't
13 considered mandatory reporters, mandated
14 reporters?
15 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Under
16 our policies, they are -- have to mandatorily
17 report misconduct, and duty to intervene.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: So therefore you
19 don't necessarily need the whistleblower
20 policy.
21 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
22 the whistleblower policy is about making sure
23 people understand the avenues to report, that
24 they could do it anonymous, without fear of
365
1 retaliation, right?
2 The more we publicize the ways in
3 which to report and that that's our
4 expectation, and we educate our employees, I
5 think that the better we're going to be, and
6 the more people we'll get to come forward
7 with allegations of misconduct and/or
8 witnessing misconduct.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Thank you.
10 So the state settled a lawsuit with
11 Carl Taylor's family for $5 million after
12 officers reportedly beat, jumped on him,
13 choked him to death.
14 If the state settled for 5 million,
15 the state must have recognized that officers
16 have been responsible for killing
17 Carl Taylor.
18 With that being said, where are those
19 officers now?
20 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO:
21 Assemblymember, I can follow up with you
22 offline.
23 I know -- I am familiar with that
24 case. In terms of where the specific
366
1 officers are and what the terms were around
2 the Attorney General and the determination to
3 settle that case, I can definitely get you
4 more information.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Thank you.
6 And this question is for
7 Commissioner Rosado.
8 According to a crime gun trace report
9 in Rochester, New York, from 2012 to 2022,
10 43 percent of crime guns traced back to
11 in-state dealers. Of the top 30 crime gun
12 dealers, trace guns by dealer location from
13 2012 to 2022, 66 percent were in-state, of
14 which 53 percent were in Monroe County.
15 Is DCJS pushing for any level of
16 accountability for, quote, unquote, legal gun
17 dealers in which their guns are ending up in
18 the streets involved in crimes throughout our
19 communities?
20 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yes. And
21 while I'm not Commissioner Rosado, I --
22 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: I'm sorry.
23 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: No, it's
24 okay.
367
1 I -- that information from ATF
2 actually comes from an investment that we
3 make in the NIBN, the National Integrated
4 Ballistics Network. So we've deployed these
5 machines throughout the state, and it allows
6 for the quick correlation to say, okay, is
7 this a crime gun, was it connected to a crime
8 gun? So that's kind of where the data comes
9 from.
10 To your point around what we're doing
11 to engage our federally licensed firearm
12 dealers, both the State Police and DCJS have
13 an obligation to provide information to the
14 dealers, ensuring that there is safe storage,
15 ensuring that they use locks, ensuring that
16 they're reporting any missing firearms.
17 So we take it very seriously that --
18 the statistics you've mentioned about
19 Monroe County and how those guns are ending
20 up in crimes.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: So if you're doing
22 that research, could you consider not
23 redacting the information as to who's doing
24 this?
368
1 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yes. And
2 I think there actually is some -- we can
3 follow up.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN MEEKS: Appreciate it.
5 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblymember
6 Mitaynes.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Hi.
8 This is for Commissioner Martuscello.
9 The city published a report in 2020 that
10 stated many deaths in New York State prisons
11 are preventable, and cited examples of
12 grossly substandard medical treatment that
13 led to preventable deaths of incarcerated
14 people.
15 Moreover, the average age of death by
16 so-called natural causes in New York State
17 prisons is, shamefully, only about 57 -- a
18 life expectancy that if a New York prison was
19 a county, would place them among the 10 worst
20 in the world.
21 What has DOCCS done to address the
22 substandard medical treatment that
23 contributes to this shocking statistic since
24 you took over, and what do you plan to do in
369
1 the near future?
2 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
3 so thank you for the question.
4 I don't know that I generally support
5 that report in terms of our care.
6 But we have, you know, obviously a --
7 almost $400 million goes to our health
8 budget, and we offer health services within
9 our institutions that match the quality of
10 care in the community. Obviously we can't
11 provide all that level of care, so we have a
12 network of hospitals that we work with, some
13 of which we have secure wards that we're able
14 to leverage in addition to our own
15 institutions.
16 Within the institutions, we have five
17 regional medical units, and in those units we
18 attract specialists to provide additional
19 services for individuals that are under our
20 care. And certainly if they need care beyond
21 that, then we work with a variety of
22 providers.
23 You know, the one thing that I think
24 that regardless of -- when we look at
370
1 healthcare in a prison system, whether in
2 New York or elsewhere, that we fail to take
3 the step backwards and take a look at the
4 healthcare prior to becoming incarcerated.
5 Which typically, you know, they've had
6 healthcare issues or come from healthcare
7 deserts, and they come with chronic
8 conditions before they even get to us, and
9 that we are treating them along the way.
10 But healthcare is something that's
11 critically important to me in making sure
12 that we're providing that level of care,
13 doing pain management, medication-assisted
14 treatment, and really serving the needs of
15 our population.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Thank you.
17 Many older people die soon after they
18 are released from prison. Does the
19 department track deaths of people on parole?
20 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So we
21 know if you're on parole and if you pass
22 away. But you have no obligation to notify
23 us or for the family to notify us what the
24 cause of death is. Right?
371
1 So if you're on supervision, we'll
2 know that you had passed away because I
3 should have been checking in on you, right,
4 so I would at least know that.
5 But to the extent -- unlike when they
6 are inside and the medical examiner and the
7 coroner does an autopsy and provides a cause
8 of death that's provided to the department by
9 a matter of law. So it's not the same for
10 people in the community.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Thank you.
12 I yield the rest of my time.
13 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Thank
14 you, ma'am.
15 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
16 Reyes.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN REYES: Good afternoon.
18 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Good
19 afternoon.
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN REYES: We have and will
21 talk a lot about Robert Brooks today. You
22 mentioned earlier that there has been
23 progressive discipline of the staff involved.
24 And I have a deep respect for workers
372
1 and protections and upholding collective
2 bargaining agreements. However, progressive
3 discipline cannot and should not apply when
4 staff murders somebody.
5 So I'm just wondering whether, within
6 your collective bargaining agreements or
7 within DOCCS' protocols, is there any
8 guidance or standards of practice that speak
9 to the use of excessive force?
10 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So,
11 again, the discipline is spelled out in the
12 collective bargaining agreement, and each
13 unit has a varying process.
14 But for the security staff, which I
15 assume you're talking about, the individuals
16 that were mostly in that video, the process
17 is the same. Right? We issue -- we issue
18 charges, the union can grieve those charges,
19 we meet and confer, and then a demand for
20 arbitration.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN REYES: Are those
22 charges within the labor -- within labor
23 practices? Or these are criminal charges?
24 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: No,
373
1 the criminal charges we would refer to an
2 outside entity which is following the
3 criminal charges.
4 This is strictly administrative. We
5 do referrals for criminal prosecution, both
6 at the local, state and federal level.
7 But I'm --
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN REYES: Understood.
9 I just think that this is not an
10 administrative overstep. This is the
11 murdering of a human being.
12 So I think what has been troubling
13 some of us, and I think part of the line of
14 questioning that you've received here, is the
15 fact that folks want to see something more.
16 In no other profession would somebody get
17 away with taking somebody's life without any
18 repercussions.
19 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah.
20 Again, I don't have oversight of the
21 criminal, but I totally agree with you, as
22 does the Governor. These people need to be
23 held criminally responsible for their crimes.
24 And I know the DA is working very
374
1 feverishly after taking the case away from --
2 or taking the case over from the
3 Attorney General.
4 In terms of administratively, we're
5 also seeking termination. I wish I had the
6 ability to unilaterally terminate, because I
7 saw enough on that video --
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN REYES: And again, in
9 any other profession, somebody would have
10 lost their jobs by now.
11 And in my last couple of seconds, I
12 have a question for you, DCJS.
13 So in 2021 we passed a Hate Crimes
14 Analysis and Review Act, which requires DCJS
15 to compile hate crimes data for perpetrators
16 and victims. Any update on that data? Have
17 you guys produced a report?
18 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: So we're
19 actually finalizing the regs.
20 We spent a lot of time working with a
21 lot of the advocacy organizations and also
22 OVS and others, to make sure that wouldn't be
23 traumatizing to victims of hate crimes in
24 terms of collecting their information, making
375
1 sure we were getting the right demographic
2 information, and making sure that law
3 enforcement was able to start reporting that.
4 So we look forward to kind of having
5 that out in the field and getting the first
6 slice of data to be able to show you.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN REYES: Appreciate it.
8 Thank you.
9 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
10 Kelles.
11 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Hi. First
12 question, about the DCJS data.
13 The dismissal data, it is with -- it's
14 the arrest charge, and following the arrest
15 charge through to a disposition. So it
16 doesn't distinguish dismissals, for example,
17 if they're dismissed within the first
18 24 hours because the DA doesn't feel that
19 there's enough information; a dismissal
20 because the grand jury doesn't feel that
21 there's enough information and it doesn't
22 align -- it doesn't include any dismissals
23 during the period where the clock has
24 stopped.
376
1 It doesn't make any distinction
2 between all of those reasons for dismissal,
3 right?
4 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Correct.
5 We're getting that feed from the Office of
6 Court Administration. And as they noted, you
7 know, we're getting broad categories but not
8 the specific reason for --
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Right. I asked
10 that specifically because if there are other
11 reasons -- for example, we are talking about
12 discovery, people are using your data, and
13 the increase over time from 28 to 41 percent
14 of dismissals.
15 But if you had a significant increase,
16 for example, in the number of dismissals that
17 happen in the first 24 hours, that would
18 suggest that there's a difference in behavior
19 of the arresting officer, potentially.
20 Or if you see a significant increase
21 in the number of dismissals where that
22 happens, you know, with the grand jury first
23 review, then it would suggest that there is a
24 change in behavior of the DAs in what charges
377
1 they're giving them, and you can't
2 distinguish.
3 So the only type of data that would
4 actually distinguish this would be data that
5 would track dismissals of speedy trial felony
6 indictments and dismissals of those, correct?
7 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: I don't
8 know that that's the only source. I mean, I
9 think --
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: But that would
11 consistently -- any kind of dismissal from
12 that case would most likely be because of
13 discovery.
14 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: I think
15 one could infer that. But I don't know
16 that's always fair, yeah.
17 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I'm just
18 concerned because your data's the data that's
19 being used, and yet you can't distinguish.
20 And there's many behaviors that may have
21 changed because of discovery.
22 So just, I think, maybe we can talk
23 about that further, but --
24 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yes.
378
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: And then a
2 question -- one of the things that I'm
3 seeing, I think people are really, really
4 angry because if anybody else had committed a
5 murder and it was on film and it was shown to
6 the rest of the world, they would be in
7 prison without parole.
8 We are seeing a situation where not
9 only are they not fired, they're out. And we
10 ask, you know, do we feel safe? I mean, they
11 committed murder. And so I just want to note
12 I hear everything that you're saying, but I
13 think that it's important to note that we're
14 also hearing that two of them had, you know,
15 confirmed records of serious abuse.
16 Do you have a commitment to not only
17 changing the policy -- and I'm going to step
18 back for a second. My first question is
19 about the cameras.
20 Cameras are only about accountability,
21 they're not about prevention. So my first
22 question is -- and we'll talk about this
23 afterwards -- what plans do you have for
24 prevention?
379
1 The next question -- we'll have to
2 talk about this afterwards -- is what are you
3 going to do for those previous cases that
4 also murdered people, in a lookback?
5 (Inaudible; off the record.)
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: We'll follow
7 up.
8 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
9 Romero.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROMERO: Thank you.
11 And thank you all. This has been such
12 an intense and long afternoon for all of you.
13 I just wanted to clarify on my
14 colleague's question super-quickly, because
15 it bears clarification. And this is for the
16 DCJS deputy commissioner.
17 The dismissals and the public data
18 that you have on dismissals, in that public
19 information, does that information clarify if
20 the dismissal is based off of discovery
21 violations?
22 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Not that
23 I've seen from the courts.
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROMERO: And so just to
380
1 be -- the dismissal is not based off of the
2 30.30 violation or if the dismissal is based
3 off of prosecutorial misconduct. There's no
4 distinction.
5 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: No, and I
6 think Judge Zayas said the same thing, which
7 is their data doesn't --
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROMERO: I'm sorry --
9 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Sorry.
10 Judge Zayas said the same thing; their data
11 doesn't distinguish what they post online,
12 what the dismissal code is, or reason.
13 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROMERO: So it's merely
14 just a number.
15 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Correct.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROMERO: Okay, thank
17 you.
18 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Okay, I really
19 don't have a question -- but I do have a
20 question. The question will come at the end
21 of this. Quite honestly, I don't expect an
22 honest answer, but I'll accept "I'll get back
23 to you for that answer."
24 Late in December I was watching
381
1 television, like many of us in this room
2 were. We saw a horrific sight on television.
3 It was the brutal treatment of Mr. Robert
4 Brooks. My wife, when she looked at it, she
5 screamed and started to cry. I felt a knot
6 in my stomach.
7 Yet when we're looking at this, the
8 individuals that were standing around had the
9 same appearance that I would have if I was
10 waiting for the bus and a car drove by. It
11 wouldn't affect me at all. And this didn't
12 affect them.
13 So in my seeing this non-effect on
14 these individuals, it tells me this is not an
15 uncommon occurrence. This tells me this is
16 an extremely common occurrence. It must have
17 happened more than three, four, five times.
18 Because the people were just standing around,
19 like I said -- that any of us, if we're
20 standing on the corner waiting for the bus
21 and a car drove by, we would be affected like
22 that -- no affect whatsoever.
23 So Commissioner, my question to you,
24 which I don't expect an honest answer to, is
382
1 how often does this happen? And do you
2 believe that cameras being on full-time will
3 have some effect on these negative outcomes?
4 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah,
5 Assemblymember, thank you for the question.
6 And I 100 percent share your outrage.
7 And when I saw that video, I had the same
8 thought, the exact same thought, that these
9 people -- not even one person in the room
10 winced. Right? They didn't -- nothing.
11 There was no affect change whatsoever.
12 So, you know, that tells me that
13 they've engaged in some excessive force long
14 before the brutal murder of Mr. Brooks.
15 What I can say to you is in terms of
16 the ongoing -- we have ongoing
17 investigations, and we've referred outside
18 prosecution for every death. So the death
19 investigations are done independently. So I
20 have some fidelity in the death
21 investigations.
22 But seeing that video makes me have to
23 question everything. Right? I need to
24 question everything. Right? And I don't
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1 want to paint every employee with the same
2 brush, no more than I want to paint every
3 incarcerated with the same brush, because we
4 have employees doing great things and we have
5 incarcerated people doing great things and
6 become successful.
7 But after seeing that and seeing how
8 they reacted to that going on and the lack of
9 emotion, the lack of intervening, it makes me
10 have to question everything.
11 And really that's the Governor's
12 sentiment as well. Right? We know we have
13 good people, but we have to get to the root
14 of how do people like that, A, become
15 employed with us, and B, how do we get rid of
16 them? And how do we make sure that we're
17 creating a culture where we focus on
18 humanity, dignity and respect?
19 Regardless of whatever color of
20 uniform or clothing, piece of clothing you
21 wear into work or inside of that
22 institution -- officers wear blue,
23 incarcerated wear green -- I don't care what
24 color of clothing you are. We have one basic
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1 thing: We're all human beings. Right?
2 And that's why we're doing an
3 independent review and making sure we're
4 looking at our pattern and our practice, that
5 we're looking at what's going on in our
6 institution and our cultures. And what's our
7 training to get to the preventative part that
8 Assemblymember Kelles was talking about.
9 That's why we're looking at our
10 training from the very first day you walk
11 into the institution to the training I give
12 you every year on an annual basis. Right?
13 We do implicit bias training. We do
14 deescalation training. But are we telling
15 people the right things? Are we fostering
16 that culture from day one?
17 I recently inserted a formerly
18 incarcerated individual into my academy
19 class, where he talks to the academy class.
20 Because this individual talks about how
21 correction officers and other incarcerated
22 people changed his life, got him into school,
23 got him graduated from high school, got him
24 through college, right? And now he's an
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1 executive director of a non-for-profit right
2 now.
3 So hearing those stories and letting
4 people hear the effects on people that you
5 can have in these positions and in these
6 institutions, that's the change that we need.
7 And I'm committed to that.
8 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: This event happened
9 in the beginning of December, and we didn't
10 find out until the end of December, which
11 means there may have been an attempt to cover
12 it up and somehow it slipped out. I don't
13 know how it got out. The volume wasn't on
14 the camera, but the cameras were rolling.
15 And I thank God that at least this all came
16 to light.
17 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: I can tell
18 you this. I can rest assured that there was
19 no attempt to cover up. We vigorously
20 investigated this and identified that
21 body-worn-camera footage. We weren't aware
22 of the ability for recall on the cameras.
23 But through our investigative staff we
24 identified that and immediately turned it
386
1 over to the State Police and the Attorney
2 General's office.
3 But because there was a criminal
4 investigation, we couldn't move until which
5 time we had approval to move and go forward.
6 And then once we did, I issued very
7 transparent statements both to the public as
8 well as to my incarcerated population on
9 multiple times, my superintendents, and to my
10 staff.
11 There is absolutely no coverup. And I
12 will not cover it up. Nobody is bigger than
13 the whole, and we've got to treat people with
14 dignity, respect and humanity. And I will
15 never cover up crimes or misconduct conducted
16 by staff, nor will I cover it up if they're
17 perpetrated by incarcerated people, visitors,
18 or anyone else.
19 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Well, thank you for
20 that -- for that answer.
21 I know a colleague of mine spent the
22 night at Marcy subsequent to this, and he
23 came back with a lot of stories of abuse that
24 he had gotten personally from some of the
387
1 incarcerated individuals.
2 I'm pretty sure I can tell you that
3 this whole situation is not being taken
4 lightly by the Legislature, and there will be
5 actions done. I mean, the Governor's budget
6 calls for the closing of a few prisons. I
7 don't know if Marcy is on that list. Maybe
8 it should be on that list, if that's the
9 culture of that particular institution. I'm
10 really not sure of that.
11 Do you have any insight on which
12 facilities are being looked at to close?
13 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Sir,
14 there's no closures contemplated in the
15 proposed budget.
16 There were closures last year. There
17 was an Article VII that passed in the enacted
18 budget which would have given us the approval
19 to close -- the Governor the approval to
20 close up to five prisons. We closed two
21 prisons. We had to give 90 days' notice.
22 So our ability -- and the law sunsets
23 on March 31st of this year. So the 90-day
24 window is done, so that Article VII can no
388
1 longer be enacted on. And there's no
2 closures in this proposed budget.
3 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Okay, thank you.
4 Assemblywoman Cruz, I hear you're
5 back.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CRUZ: Apologies for
7 earlier, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
8 calling on me again.
9 I want to follow up on the question
10 that you just answered.
11 So if the Article VII has now in
12 effect expired, and there are only two out of
13 the five prisons that were closed that were
14 authorized under that original Article VII,
15 are there plans to put another Article VII
16 into place? Are there conversations for this
17 budget? I don't recall seeing anything in
18 the budget proposal.
19 And then the second question is both
20 for DOCCS and DCJS. Love to know if there's
21 been any movement on the implementation of
22 Clean Slate, and what if any resources you
23 need from us to support the process and to
24 ensure that both agencies are ready to go to
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1 meet the timeline.
2 Thank you.
3 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, thank
4 you for your question. I'll start and then
5 hand it off to EDC Popcun.
6 In terms of the budget last year that
7 was enacted, it gave us the approval to close
8 up to five. So it didn't specify it was
9 going to be five; it was going to be
10 somewhere within that number.
11 There is no Article VII language in
12 the proposed budget. So at this time there
13 are no closures that are being projected or
14 requested in this budget cycle.
15 In terms of Clean Slate, I will tell
16 you that we have worked very cooperatively
17 with DCJS and the Office of Court
18 Administration. We've already -- we've
19 worked out data agreements with both entities
20 to make sure they're getting access to our
21 data so that they can fulfill their
22 obligation under the law.
23 And we've also already enacted the
24 aspects that pertain to the incarcerated
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1 lookup, so that's done. That was effective
2 in -- I believe in October of 2024, and
3 that's been fully implemented on our side.
4 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: At DCJS
5 we've been, you know, as I talked about in my
6 testimony, really the convener and
7 facilitator.
8 So while we maintain the criminal
9 histories, you know, our database stands
10 ready to seal and suppress records as they're
11 notified by OCA. There's been a bunch of
12 sealing provisions over the last few years,
13 and so, you know, I can say that we're ready
14 for -- to seal and suppress records as set
15 forth in the law.
16 I do think, you know, OCA is working
17 diligently to make sure they know how to
18 identify the records, and that's where, to
19 Commissioner Martuscello's point, the data
20 sharing is really, really integral to
21 identify the right records to seal on those
22 criminal histories.
23 We think that there's going to be
24 5 million records that are affected upon the
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1 full implementation of Clean Slate.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CRUZ: And during the
3 negotiation process it became very clear that
4 some of the local prison systems -- local
5 jails that are not necessarily connected to
6 the state in the same way that, say, Marcy
7 is, because they're smaller ones -- don't
8 have the capacity to share the records in the
9 same way.
10 Have we been able to speak to the
11 localities or even in places where you have
12 to go to serve your time on a weekend? And
13 so those were some of the ones that were --
14 it was very clear that there were issues.
15 DCJS EX. DEP. CMR. POPCUN: Yeah,
16 absolutely. So we worked -- the answer is
17 yes, we're working on it.
18 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CRUZ: Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 We have two chairs who each get three
21 minutes. First we'll call Julia Salazar,
22 then I think we have another Assembly chair,
23 and then we'll go back for the final. So
24 you're almost done, gentlemen.
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1 Julia Salazar.
2 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you, Chair.
3 Hello again. I wanted to follow up on
4 a question that was asked about the alleged
5 fentanyl exposure, the incident at
6 Upstate Correctional Facility in which
7 Upstate was locked down for about a week, if
8 I'm not mistaken, give or take. Close
9 enough?
10 So regardless, was anything found
11 during the investigation of the incident in
12 Upstate that explained any of the symptoms
13 that corrections staff experienced and
14 reported?
15 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, thank
16 you for the follow-up question.
17 So what I can tell you is that there
18 was a toxicology report done on the
19 incarcerated individual that found no
20 substances in his system. There was some
21 admittance and opining by toxicology experts
22 that he could have potentially could have
23 ingested K-2.
24 We did find substances that we are
393
1 testing through an independent lab, but the
2 results have not come back in yet, so yet to
3 be determined. You know, the investigation
4 continues to determine if we found anything.
5 The one key thing I want to add,
6 though, is I recently convened all of the
7 unions as well as every superintendent and
8 unions in every facility, and I brought
9 together a panel of experts -- toxicology
10 experts, doctors in the field of dealing with
11 alcohol and substance abuse, OASAS -- and we
12 talked about the myths and the realities of
13 exposures, how you get exposures, if it could
14 be skin exposures, if you'd have to ingest
15 it.
16 And we've agreed that we're going to
17 work on an informational sheet for staff, not
18 necessarily that it's directed. But to the
19 extent that there's misnomers out there, we
20 want to make sure that staff are educated on,
21 A, not to expose themselves, in the event
22 that they do see the drug, but then also
23 knowing what signs and symptoms really are.
24 Because really, you know, we want to
394
1 make sure that we don't only treat a
2 potential exposure when there could be other
3 health-related issues going on, right?
4 That's a common thing just in medicine in
5 general. But so --
6 SENATOR SALAZAR: I'm sorry to cut you
7 off.
8 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: --
9 yet to be determined.
10 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you. I
11 appreciate the response.
12 A separate question clarifying the
13 potential to close Marcy Correctional
14 Facility or any other correctional
15 facility -- but, you know, with an eye on
16 Marcy.
17 Just to clarify, the Governor could
18 still direct Marcy to be closed, it just
19 of course would not be on the timeline that
20 was allowed -- given in last year's budget;
21 basically, the timeline in statute of
22 12 months' notice.
23 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: I'll answer
24 your question in the long way for your
395
1 32 seconds.
2 But look, the point of Marcy, Marcy
3 offers a lot of good features, including the
4 largest mental health -- regional mental
5 health unit in the state. I think leaning
6 into this independent assessment and
7 identifying what the root cause is here,
8 while still criminally prosecuting those
9 individuals.
10 But to get to the heart of your
11 question, yes, 79A of the Correction Law
12 allows for a one-year notification for the
13 closure of any prison in the State of
14 New York.
15 SENATOR SALAZAR: Great. Thank you.
16 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Dilan
17 for his follow-up.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Thank you,
19 Mr. Chairman.
20 And Commissioner Martuscello, just
21 some follow-up questions on the cameras.
22 On a day-to-day basis, are you able to
23 monitor the footage of the cameras centrally
24 at DOCCS headquarters, or are they monitored
396
1 at the facilities themselves?
2 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: So two
3 things. We have instituted, through the new
4 performance matrix, that the system itself,
5 for fully deployed, identify camera footage
6 on a randomization so executive staff at the
7 facilities can review videos as well as also
8 review the videos that are incident-specific.
9 From central office they are uploaded
10 into the cloud, so we do have access in our
11 OSI without going to the institution, can
12 access any video uploaded to the cloud.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: On a daily basis
14 or on a --
15 DOCCS COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. Thank you.
17 Then the last question was on the
18 breakdown of the 400 million for cameras in
19 this year's proposal, and then 400 million
20 that was done previously.
21 How much of that is on actual cameras,
22 and how much of that is on the installation?
23 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: I can get
24 you the breakdown.
397
1 I mean, these are complex projects.
2 On average, a facility, depending on size,
3 runs between $20 million and $30 million.
4 Right? Because you have to wire it and run
5 the conduit and then there's actually the
6 camera apparatus and then the paying of the
7 labor. So I could pull one of the contracts
8 and share it with you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. Yeah, if
10 you could get back at a future date, that
11 would be good.
12 And I just will close by saying, you
13 know, the immediate arrest and prosecution of
14 those involved is paramount for the community
15 at large, and it's something that the caucus,
16 you know, wants to see. We know that's out
17 of your purview, but it's something that
18 needs to happen immediately.
19 Thank you.
20 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: I agree.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, we have a
22 revisit of Senator Tom O'Mara, our ranker,
23 who didn't have a chance to ask yet.
24 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.
398
1 Thank you all for being here today for
2 your testimony. It's been a very long day
3 for all of us.
4 But just as quickly as I can, for the
5 State Police superintendent.
6 Last year legislation was passed to
7 allow for the FOILing of Troopers' personnel
8 files. Where does that stand right now?
9 Have any of those records been FOILed? Have
10 they been released? And what is your policy
11 as far as letting members of your staff,
12 Troopers, whoever, that have been FOILed, do
13 they get notified that they've been FOILed?
14 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Thank you
15 for your question, Senator.
16 One of the first things I did when I
17 came back to the State Police, I focused on
18 transparency. I'm pleased to say as of
19 January 27th of this year, we have gone live
20 with regard to putting online all FOIL
21 requests, with the appropriate redactions.
22 And also information with regard to
23 disciplinary records when there were
24 personnel complaints.
399
1 So that information on the standard
2 State Police website, troopers.ny.gov, or any
3 FOIL request, that's how it can be accessed.
4 That doesn't preclude the members themselves
5 from accessing that. There is a policy and
6 protocol, based on prior disciplinary
7 history, that the members would ideally have
8 access to review their personnel jackets.
9 That's always been the case. Of which the
10 personnel complaint history would be in
11 there.
12 SENATOR O'MARA: What's available
13 online, the FOIL request or also the response
14 to that FOIL request?
15 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: The FOIL
16 request -- and that goes for any publicly
17 requested document, with redactions of
18 others, are on there. That's a link.
19 We've started the data as far as, as I
20 said, January 27th. And information that has
21 been requested previously, we're populating
22 that website to access that information. If
23 that answers your question.
24 SENATOR O'MARA: There's no
400
1 affirmative notification to an individual
2 Trooper, say, that their personnel file's
3 been FOILed?
4 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Not per se
5 in that regard. That information, we'd
6 notify the respective district attorney's
7 offices, all the invested matters. We
8 contacted the unions, we put that information
9 out there prior to the release in that
10 regard.
11 SENATOR O'MARA: You contacted the
12 union, is that what you said?
13 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: The unions.
14 We spoke with the union presidents, the
15 internal -- NYSPIA and the PBA.
16 SENATOR O'MARA: About the general
17 policy, or about each request?
18 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: To inform
19 them that this policy was effective and that
20 it would go live, that members could then be
21 aware that that information would be
22 accessible.
23 And this is on the heels of NYCLU,
24 right, the case that, fortunately or
401
1 unfortunately, that the state didn't endure,
2 which required that 20 years of documents be
3 provided. As I understand, it's currently on
4 appeal through the AG's office.
5 But the step that I took wasn't
6 something that was a requirement. I took it
7 upon myself to put that information out there
8 that was FOILable -- with proper redactions,
9 to be available.
10 SENATOR O'MARA: I just got
11 notice that -- my information is that there
12 was a requirement that this policy be
13 provided to the union. Is that what you're
14 saying, you have done that?
15 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: Yes, we
16 have.
17 Contact with -- our general counsel as
18 well handles all the appropriate contact
19 internally, if that's what you were asking,
20 as far as with notification to our personnel.
21 SENATOR O'MARA: Thank you.
22 STATE POLICE SUPT. JAMES: You're
23 welcome.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
402
1 And our last questioner, second round,
2 Chair Myrie.
3 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you,
4 Madam Chair.
5 I just want to revisit the various
6 plans by the Executive for our subway system
7 in the city: The Trainist Recidivist
8 Awareness Initiative. I'm curious about just
9 more details on what this will entail.
10 I'm someone that takes the subway
11 every day, how most New Yorkers get around.
12 We all have an interest in keeping everyone
13 safe with some combination of law enforcement
14 smartly deployed, medical professionals,
15 et cetera.
16 But I'm wondering what we envision
17 parole officers to be doing, what level of
18 cooperation with the PD, what support parole
19 officers have now -- who, as you know, are
20 already suffering through some understaffing
21 and some other stresses. So I'm just curious
22 what the vision is for this.
23 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Yeah, thank
24 you for your question. This is an important
403
1 initiative that we're actually launching this
2 evening. So we are utilizing our GPS
3 technology where we have recidivists that
4 have engaged in this conduct in the transit
5 system, where we place them on a GPS.
6 We will be deploying teams of three,
7 two parol officers and a senior parole
8 officer, mostly up on the entrance on the
9 street level. And the thought is to really
10 have positive interactions.
11 Just like parole officers are doing
12 home visits and employment visits and
13 promoting prosocial behavior of parolee
14 population and really supporting them, that's
15 really what this is all about, is to have the
16 interaction, be visible to the parolee
17 population that you're there. So if they
18 were thinking about engaging in this conduct
19 in the subway system, or engaging in crimes,
20 that we can avoid further victimization and
21 keep them on the path to successfully coming
22 off of community supervision.
23 Unfortunately, recently we've had two
24 cases that were crimes committed by parolees
404
1 in the subway system where they were
2 subsequently charged, and we violated them.
3 But we want to get ahead of that.
4 You know what, I take the notion that
5 our parole officers play an important public
6 safety function, but part of that is really
7 being a coach, not the referee. Right? We
8 want to make sure we're coaching people,
9 we're pointing them in the right direction,
10 getting them to the services that they
11 need -- even to the extent that last year
12 when Less Is More was enacted, we invested in
13 employment parole officers. We put every one
14 of our parole officers --
15 SENATOR MYRIE: I'm sorry,
16 Commissioner, just -- my time is low.
17 So just for clarity, we envision
18 having parole officers prevent parolees from
19 entering the system?
20 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: No, not
21 entering. Just interacting with them when
22 they're on the -- when they're coming into
23 the system, have discussions with them, how
24 you doing. You know, just like we do now to
405
1 promote prosocial behavior.
2 If an incident occurs, then we have
3 staff available to authorize a warrant and do
4 custodies just like we normally would. But
5 that's not the type of interaction that we're
6 seeking. That may occur if they're
7 committing a crime. Right? And we also have
8 been talking to the Transit Police as well.
9 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
10 COMMISSIONER MARTUSCELLO: Thank you,
11 sir.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
13 Gentlemen, thank you very much for
14 your attendance. We might have more
15 questions, but we don't have any more time to
16 ask them of you today. Thank you, and
17 continue with your work.
18 And we are going to call up the next
19 panel. And if people need to try to grab
20 these gentlemen, do it out in the hall, in
21 the respect that they've been sitting for
22 many hours and might need other things to do.
23 Our next panel is C: New York State
24 Division of Homeland Security and Emergency
406
1 Services, and the New York State Office of
2 Information Technology Services.
3 (Pause; off the record.)
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Could we have
5 everyone's attention, please.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, I'm
7 not miked. I was saying this is Panel C. It
8 will be our last government invited panel.
9 So we're going to ask both representatives to
10 introduce themselves for the people in the
11 video room to know who's who, and then we'll
12 start.
13 OITS CIO RAI: I'm the chief
14 information officer for the State of New York
15 and the director of ITS.
16 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Speak closer to the
17 mic, please.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Get closer to the
19 mic. Try again.
20 OITS CIO RAI: Is it okay?
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Just say your
22 name again, please.
23 OITS CIO RAI: Dru Rai, director of
24 ITS and CIO for the state.
407
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: I'm
3 Terry O'Leary. I'm the executive deputy
4 commissioner for the Division of Homeland
5 Security and Emergency Services.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. okay, so
7 Dru, do you want to start with us? So it's
8 10 minutes on the clock. Thank you.
9 OITS CIO RAI: Thank you,
10 Chairs Krueger and Pretlow, Chairs Gonzalez
11 and Otis, and distinguished members of the
12 Legislature. It is my honor to work
13 alongside you in service to our fellow
14 New Yorkers.
15 As you will see, ITS is an agency on
16 the rise. With the state's digital needs
17 growing by --
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sir, we're just
19 going to ask you to pull the mic up a bit
20 closer. People are not having -- they're not
21 hearing you well enough. Thank you.
22 OITS CIO RAI: Thank you, Chair. I'll
23 start again.
24 Thank you, Chairs Krueger and Pretlow,
408
1 Chairs Gonzalez and Otis, and distinguished
2 members of the Legislature. It is an honor
3 to work alongside with you in service of our
4 fellow New Yorkers.
5 As you will see, ITS is an agency on
6 the rise. With the state's digital needs
7 growing by the minute, ITS is doing more this
8 year than we have at any time since this
9 agency was created.
10 Whether it's enhancing cybersecurity,
11 helping to carry out the Governor's customer
12 experience agenda, responsibly guiding the
13 state's next phase of AI, or pushing forward
14 major modernization projects at our key
15 agencies, ITS is leaning into many of the
16 state's most pressing challenges.
17 I'm pleased to say that this budget
18 provides ITS with the resources to continue
19 to get the job done for our partner agencies
20 and all New Yorkers.
21 To carry out these important
22 objectives, we have transitioned to a new
23 dedicated agency service model, which brings
24 our skilled technology workers closer to the
409
1 agencies they serve. By doing so, we have
2 strengthened existing partnerships with the
3 subject matter experts at these agencies,
4 becoming more proactive and strategic, and
5 leveraged our new deputy commissioners of
6 technology and their teams to fuel the
7 state's ongoing digital transformation.
8 At the same time, we maintain shared
9 services for cost-effectiveness and
10 compliance.
11 We have also significantly improved
12 performance, starting with the rapid
13 ITS-directed response to the July worldwide
14 IT outage. This disruption could have been
15 devastating and had lasting consequences for
16 our client agencies and the people of
17 New York. Instead, we worked to bring all
18 critical systems back online within 24 hours
19 and swiftly remediated tens of thousands of
20 blue screens to help our state employees get
21 right back to work.
22 Further, we now have a comprehensive
23 plan to deal with future emergencies or
24 events, and one that has proven to be
410
1 successful.
2 I'm proud to say we are completing
3 projects on time and under budget. We are
4 making significant progress with the
5 transition from WMS to the new Integrated
6 Eligibility System by breaking this massive
7 project into smaller, more flexible and more
8 manageable pieces, and ultimately moving our
9 state ever closer to the "no wrong door"
10 public benefits system New Yorkers deserve.
11 In fact, I am pleased to announce that
12 the Child Support Release 1 Go Live, the
13 first of many coming releases, will be
14 launched at the end of this month.
15 Working in partnership with the
16 state's Chief Customer Experience Officer,
17 ITS is providing its expertise and resources
18 to deliver the customer experience gains as
19 envisioned by Governor Hochul. This includes
20 overhauled agency websites, streamlined
21 workflows, optimized digital services for
22 mobile devices, a renewed focus on the
23 customer journey, and improved access for
24 all.
411
1 One year ago, at the Governor's
2 direction, we wrote and issued the first
3 statewide policy on the Acceptable Use of AI.
4 It now serves as a roadmap for agencies to
5 adopt AI safely and responsibly.
6 In the coming weeks, ITS will issue
7 specific guidance to agencies that will help
8 identify and catalogue AI capabilities in
9 use, and create a public inventory shared
10 with all New Yorkers.
11 ITS will regularly refine and improve
12 these guidance documents to meet evolving-use
13 cases and continuously modernize the
14 technology solutions we deliver. And thanks
15 to your partnership with Governor Hochul,
16 this concept is now enshrined in law,
17 ensuring transparency in the state's use of
18 AI to support New Yorkers.
19 Our aim is simple -- to show the
20 nation what is possible when you optimize the
21 benefits of AI while mitigating risk, provide
22 strong human oversight, create efficiencies
23 in government service delivery, and enhance
24 the workplace experience for our most
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1 important asset, our employees.
2 At the Governor's direction, ITS will
3 provide AI training, education and upskilling
4 for our state workforce, along with other
5 resources, so they have the tools and skills
6 necessary to make an even greater impact for
7 New York.
8 In 2022, we built the Joint Security
9 Operations Center to forever change the way
10 we manage cybersecurity in New York. And
11 it's making a difference. The Governor's
12 comprehensive statewide strategy is better
13 protecting our state and local entities from
14 cyberthreats, and we continue to grow our
15 capabilities every day, providing actionable
16 intelligence and alerts to our partners and
17 adding new statewide customers. In fact, ITS
18 now protects more than 95,000 computers in
19 local communities across the state.
20 The Executive Budget provides new
21 resources to grow the JSOC to meet this
22 surging demand. With all the work ahead of
23 us, I am grateful that the Executive Budget
24 recommends an increase of $174 million,
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1 including 295 new full-time equivalents for
2 ITS. If we are going to set the state up for
3 future success, we must grow the ITS
4 workforce to meet this moment.
5 While the challenges before us are
6 great, so too are the many opportunities --
7 opportunities to leave our state better,
8 stronger, safer, more modern and more
9 affordable through the strategic use of
10 technology and the many contributions of our
11 hardworking state employees.
12 Our agency has repeatedly shown that
13 when we use a state employee to deliver a new
14 technology solution, we do it better, faster,
15 and save taxpayers more of their hard-earned
16 dollars. Therefore, I ask you to follow
17 Governor Hochul's lead and help us rightsize
18 ITS for the future.
19 These 295 new ITS employees will
20 collectively deliver even more for New York,
21 including work on the landmark tax
22 modernization, ensuring state web
23 applications conform to the global benchmark
24 for accessibility, and creation of an even
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1 more robust cybersecurity posture for
2 New York.
3 Thank you for your time and
4 partnership, and I look forward to answering
5 any questions you may have.
6 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: Thank
7 you, Chair Pretlow and the Legislature for
8 this time and opportunity to present.
9 I will not read verbatim the
10 testimony. I'm just going to touch on a
11 couple of highlights.
12 So at the Division of Homeland
13 Security and Emergency Services, we have an
14 amazingly broad mission. And our main
15 mission is to ensure a resilient New York
16 that is prepared for any disaster that may
17 come our way. We spend a lot of time working
18 with our state partners to marshal and
19 prepare resources, to plan for what may come
20 our way, whether it be a natural disaster, a
21 manmade disaster or, as we're increasingly
22 seeing, cybersecurity events -- which is why
23 it makes sense that I'm sitting here with the
24 state's chief information officer.
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1 This year's Executive Budget proposes
2 approximately 165 million in state operating
3 funds for the division, 28 million in capital
4 funding, and 8.9 billion in Aid to
5 Localities, the overwhelming majority of
6 which would be FEMA funding being passed
7 through to local and state applicants.
8 Changes in this year's Executive
9 Budget include $25 million in capital funding
10 for a second round of the Volunteer Fire
11 Infrastructure and Response Equipment grant,
12 or V-FIRE grants; $1.4 million to expand our
13 Office of Counterterrorism; and $1 million to
14 develop and distribute a new media literacy
15 guide for teachers, parents and students,
16 building off of a partnership that we had
17 with the State Department of Education and
18 the release of a media literacy toolkit that
19 was released last year.
20 These resources will build upon the
21 division's prior efforts and ensure that
22 New York is in fact prepared for and can
23 respond to any future disaster or emergency.
24 Last year alone, the state's Emergency
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1 Operations Center was activated on over 17
2 occasions, 10 of which were for natural
3 disasters. We had lake effect snow events
4 and severe winter weather. We had an extreme
5 heat event throughout the state in June, the
6 flooding in July and August caused by
7 Hurricane Beryl, Tropical Storm Debby and the
8 intense rainfall in Suffolk County that also
9 impacted Oswego and portions of upstate.
10 We also set a record last year for
11 32 tornadoes in the state. And in fact on
12 one day the NWS -- National Weather
13 Service -- issued over 40 tornado warnings
14 throughout the state that the conditions
15 existed, and they warned New Yorkers that a
16 tornado may occur, an invaluable service that
17 the NWS provides New Yorkers in putting out
18 that information and creating awareness.
19 After what was an extremely volatile
20 summer, what followed was a fall with almost
21 no rain. The drought conditions that lasted
22 throughout the fall and throughout the state
23 in fact led to wildfires. These wildfires
24 occurred largely in the Mohawk Valley and the
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1 Catskills, but we saw them elsewhere. In
2 New York we have a State Wildfire Service.
3 It is run by our Forest Rangers under the
4 Department of Environmental Conservation, and
5 they responded to over 122 wildfires last
6 year. They do fantastic work, not only in
7 response but in prevention as well, enforcing
8 every year the Burn Ban as well during the
9 traditional wildfire season.
10 But one wildfire in particular, the
11 Jennings Creek Wildfire, that took place in
12 Orange County, was particularly problematic
13 for us, because it's what's referred to as a
14 wildland-urban interface fire. It is where
15 the fire leaves the forest and starts
16 encroaching on development. And as a result,
17 you need more than just wildland
18 firefighters.
19 Thanks to our state fire office, the
20 Office of Fire Prevention and Control, they
21 were able to marshal resources from over
22 427 fire departments throughout the state,
23 the overwhelming majority of which were
24 volunteer fire departments. When the fire
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1 really started to pick up, it was on a
2 weekend, and we were working very closely
3 with County Executive Neuhaus in
4 Orange County, Pete Cirigliano, his emergency
5 manager, and Vini Tankasali, their county
6 fire coordinator.
7 And we had lots of resources from
8 within Orange County and neighboring
9 counties. We were afraid of what was going
10 to happen when it turned to the week and the
11 volunteer firefighters had to go back to
12 their day jobs. Yet they showed up and they
13 protected all of the houses in Greenwood
14 Lake, as well as the Jehovah's Witnesses
15 Headquarters over in Tuxedo, and not a single
16 structure was lost. Truly heroic work, a
17 combination between our wildland firefighting
18 force as well as our volunteer firefighters
19 who protected all of those structures.
20 The fire risk isn't only limited to
21 wildfires, though. We saw over 21,000
22 structure fires throughout the state last
23 year that resulted in over 130 deaths. And
24 unfortunately today there was the passing of
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1 a firefighter in Binghamton, responding to a
2 fire as well.
3 The threat that fire poses to this
4 state is never-ending. It changes throughout
5 the state. Lithium-ion battery fires are
6 obviously a grave concern in New York City,
7 and the FDNY is at the forefront of fighting
8 that battle. We see that also in some other
9 areas of the state with battery energy
10 storage systems. But what we do see is that
11 the threat that fire poses to our state
12 persists.
13 To that end, and one of the central
14 missions of the division, is training. We
15 trained over 80,000 first responders last
16 year. Over 50,000 of them were firefighters,
17 and over 4500 of them graduated from courses
18 at the State Fire Academy in Montour Falls.
19 Some of that firefighting training was
20 around lithium-ion batteries. We trained
21 over 340 people on wildland firefighting, and
22 with your support we're going to continue to
23 do that.
24 The Governor's ask to continue the
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1 V-FIRE grant is also very important, because
2 it will help stabilize the volunteer
3 firefighting force throughout the state.
4 Last year we were able to award 88 grants
5 worth $25 million, which went towards either
6 sustaining or improving the physical
7 structures as well as the response equipment.
8 And we look forward to being able to award
9 $25 million if the Governor's proposal is
10 carried.
11 One of the other things that I'll
12 offer: We mentioned in the testimony about
13 the State Preparedness Training Center, which
14 is in Oriskany in Oneida County. It is a
15 premier facility. We do all-hazards training
16 there. The State Police use it as well as
17 local first responders. And it is free of
18 charge to every first responder in the state.
19 I would invite all of you to come and
20 visit. I know Utica in the winter is not the
21 friendliest place -- it's a very friendly
22 place. It's not the warmest place to visit,
23 let me be clear. It is a fantastic facility
24 where we're partnered with our partners in
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1 Oneida County. And we would welcome you to
2 come and visit anytime you would like to. It
3 is a premier facility that New York State
4 should be proud of, and your continued
5 commitment has made it what it is.
6 Finally I'll talk about cyberthreats
7 and attacks. As CIO Rai stated, it is a
8 continuing and growing threat that we are
9 facing.
10 Thanks to your support, the state's
11 Cyber Incident Response Team, which sits
12 within the Division of Homeland Security,
13 responded to over 71 events, helping local
14 and county governments respond to
15 cyberattacks. We did over 10,000 trainings
16 of government officials and also conducted
17 anti-phishing trainings as well, to lessen
18 the threat that cyberattacks face us with.
19 And finally I'd like to talk a little
20 bit about the work that our Office of
21 Disaster Recovery Programs does. This is the
22 state agency that in fact passes through the
23 FEMA dollars that come into this state after
24 a disaster. They are currently managing
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1 18 open disasters and have done fantastic
2 work in passing through billions of dollars
3 to applicants of all different sophistication
4 throughout these disasters, including COVID.
5 In the past year alone, they put
6 together documents to obtain four separate
7 disaster declarations from the president, and
8 also obtained a fire mitigation assistance
9 grant, the first ever in New York State
10 history, following the Jennings Creek fire.
11 Finally, I'd like to thank the over
12 200 first responders and emergency managers
13 throughout the state who left the state under
14 the emergency management assistance compact,
15 and helped our fellow states following
16 Hurricanes Helene and Milton. And even this
17 year, last month, we had DEC wildland
18 firefighters called to California to assist
19 with the Paradise and Eaton wildfires.
20 Without these heroes -- who don't ask
21 for credit, yet they always show up and
22 always do the job -- we would not be
23 successful and New York would not be as safe
24 a state as it is.
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1 I appreciate very much your
2 opportunity to present, and your patience. I
3 will note that my testimony said good
4 morning, and we're almost to good evening.
5 So thank you very much for staying with us
6 and allowing me to present on the division's
7 budget.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
9 much.
10 First up to question is
11 Senator Gonzalez.
12 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Thank you so much,
13 Chairwoman.
14 Hi, Director Rai. Thank you for being
15 here today. It's so good to see you again.
16 We have a lot to get through, so I'm just
17 going to jump in and start with the elephant
18 in the room.
19 In September of last year, Politico
20 published an article on ITS employees titled
21 "How One State Worker Raked in 300K from the
22 Kickball Field." According to Politico,
23 possibly four or more ITS employees increased
24 their base salaries by four to five times
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1 through ITS's COVID overtime policy.
2 They also reported that 30 employees
3 were collectively paid about 3 million in
4 overtime in 2021. And between 2020 and 2022,
5 ITS overtime policy grew to more than six
6 times its pre-pandemic levels.
7 So my question is very simple. I
8 know, of course, this happened in part before
9 your appointment. But curious if you have
10 updated your policy since.
11 OITS CIO RAI: Senator, we are aware
12 of that report. And not that I want to give
13 you an excuse, this definitely happened
14 before me. I would say that the chaos of the
15 pandemic and the lack of IT head counts.
16 So since, I would say, my 16 months
17 here, we have hired 800 ITS people. That
18 really helps reduce the overtime, number one.
19 We have definitely enacted policies
20 and procedures, whether -- like who goes on
21 overtime. It is a red flag if the overtime
22 goes beyond 20 percent, for example, for
23 employees. And I'm happy to report that now
24 our overtime is less than 1 percent --
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1 actually, a fraction of a percent if you
2 count the last 12 months.
3 So we definitely have taken a lot of
4 steps. And we don't anticipate this problem
5 going forward.
6 SENATOR GONZALEZ: That's certainly
7 great to hear. Of course, when it's a public
8 story, it's important for the Legislature to
9 have an update.
10 However, I am not sure it was due to
11 lack of head count. I mean, some of the
12 employees reported 6,453 hours in a year,
13 which would mean they worked 365 days in a
14 year for 18 hours a day. So I think there
15 certainly was a need for the update, and it's
16 great to hear that you did that.
17 Are these employees still with ITS?
18 OITS CIO RAI: To the best of my
19 knowledge, we are still looking into these
20 people, and some of them are under
21 investigation. That's all I can say at this
22 point.
23 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Well, certainly
24 appreciate the update, and want to know that
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1 we are moving forward as we increase head
2 count with trainings and policies in place.
3 I'm going to pivot to this year's
4 budget request. The proposed 2025 All Funds
5 appropriation for ITS is 1.23 billion,
6 representing a $174 million increase, which
7 is $10 million more than the aggregate
8 increase ITS has received for the last four
9 years.
10 The Executive's budget proposal
11 indicates the funding is mostly to maintain
12 existing ITS operations. Can you tell us a
13 little bit more about how you plan to use
14 this money?
15 OITS CIO RAI: Yeah, I think there are
16 major, five major components where we expect
17 this money to go. Which is thanks to you and
18 the Governor for your support.
19 The first is the cyber, and the cyber
20 includes both remediating our past
21 infrastructure -- as you probably know, we
22 still have systems older than myself and we
23 have to get rid of those at end of life. We
24 have applications. We have hardware. So
427
1 that's one set of work on the cyber
2 remediation.
3 The second set of work, which we'll
4 continue to work with our partner agencies,
5 including DHSES and New York State Police on
6 the JSOC. As you know, we are now
7 collaborating with more than 100 localities,
8 and we continue to expand the services over
9 there.
10 The second major work is modernization
11 of systems. And two big ones are Tax and
12 WMS.
13 The third major component for this is
14 we have to update a lot of web applications,
15 including what may look like a website but
16 there's a tremendous amount of database
17 involved, whether it's accessibility
18 compliance or MENA {ph} compliance.
19 The fourth one is our move to cloud.
20 And we continue to march -- most of the
21 greenfield we are trying to do in cloud
22 unless we don't have options. And the last
23 one, but not least, is enhancing our customer
24 experience and AI training and sandbox for
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1 employees.
2 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Great. Thank you
3 so much. I think again, considering we're
4 looking at increasing the budget more than
5 all of the last four years combined, it's
6 really great to hear the initiatives you have
7 planned.
8 I do want to speak to the investment
9 in cybersecurity. We repeatedly hear
10 concerns from agencies and localities and
11 municipalities regarding outdated equipment
12 and software. It's part of that list. But
13 can you give us a sense of how much of this
14 budget will be used to progress our state's
15 modernization efforts?
16 OITS CIO RAI: Yeah, I don't have an
17 exact amount because it's a trailing figure
18 versus planned figure. But a substantial
19 amount of this budget is going to JSOC, which
20 really we work with our partner agencies to
21 serve. And then the other part is just
22 protecting the State of New York, our own old
23 systems and remediating.
24 There are approximately 50 programs we
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1 are running in six different streams to fix
2 our -- from network segmentation to access
3 management, which includes MFA, to training
4 and awareness, to vulnerability management.
5 And on the JSOC, our three major
6 end-point protections, attack surface
7 management and just providing incidence
8 response to all of these localities.
9 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Great. I've gotten
10 aligned on all of these things. We've had
11 bills on multifactor authentication and
12 certainly, you know, upgrading our
13 infrastructure.
14 But in terms of modernization, how
15 much progress do you think we'll make in the
16 next year?
17 OITS CIO RAI: Well, I wish I could --
18 I mean, I could forecast almost everything.
19 As I said, this is a massive and complicated
20 infrastructure. We operate more than 6500
21 systems supporting 57 executive and a few
22 non-executive agencies.
23 The budget which is provided, and the
24 guidance from you and the Governor's office,
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1 is to modernize. Our starting point will be
2 to, you know, take a look at all the systems.
3 All systems are not created equal when you
4 view the risk profiling.
5 Based on the risk profile, you first
6 mitigate the highest risk and so on.
7 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Thank you. I'm
8 going to, just for the sake of time -- you
9 know, I would just say on that note we want
10 to make sure we're accelerating the process
11 and we don't just want to hire FTEs for
12 cybersecurity, but outdated infrastructure is
13 one of our biggest vulnerabilities. Which is
14 why we certainly feel the urgency that we're
15 hearing from the agencies as well.
16 I'm going to pivot to AI. You issued
17 the acceptable use of artificial intelligence
18 technologies policy over a year ago, on
19 January 8, 2024. This policy and the
20 original version of the LOADinG Act, my bill
21 from last session, would have required human
22 oversight on high-risk systems. Are there
23 any ITS systems that require human oversight
24 per this policy?
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1 OITS CIO RAI: Well, as I said, AI is
2 actually not a tool, it's more of a
3 capability. Almost every software vendor is
4 embedding AI into it. So we should see this
5 as a capability. Our policy is very clear --
6 SENATOR GONZALEZ: I'm sorry, I'm not
7 asking how we view it, I'm asking if we're in
8 accordance with our current ITS policy. And
9 actually there are systems that exist that
10 have human oversight, per the policy.
11 OITS CIO RAI: Yes. We have provided
12 the policy to all acting -- you know,
13 whichever executive agency uses AI
14 capability. We at this point have no
15 evidence of nobody following the policy, if
16 that's the question.
17 But there are more -- as you know, the
18 AI continues to evolve. I expect the policy
19 also will continue to evolve.
20 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Absolutely. And
21 it's not just, you know, if we are complying,
22 it's actually knowing how far we've made it
23 through this policy.
24 So in addition to the human oversight
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1 requirement, there is a requirement for risk
2 assessments through this policy. Has ITS
3 performed any risk assessments on AI systems
4 since the policy has been in place?
5 OITS CIO RAI: Correct. I mean, if we
6 buy a software or a tool and it has an AI
7 capability, we make sure that the application
8 and implementation of that tool is within the
9 bounds of the policy.
10 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Great. It's good
11 to hear that we're making sure we're aligned
12 and there's clear oversight.
13 And then finally, according to the
14 policy, an inventory needed to be completed
15 by July 6, 2024. I think according to your
16 testimony, in the next few weeks you'll be
17 issuing a guidance to do that inventory. I'm
18 just wondering if there's been any challenges
19 that would account for the pushback of that
20 deadline, and if there's any way the
21 Legislature can support to make sure we're
22 getting that inventory so we're, you know,
23 informing our transformation plans.
24 OITS CIO RAI: Senator, this is going
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1 to be a moving target. The AI tools continue
2 to evolve, and we will provide the direction,
3 we'll get the inventory, and then the tools
4 will move one more step. And this process
5 probably is going to continue for a very long
6 time, in my judgment.
7 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Certainly heard on
8 the moving target. But we want to make sure
9 that we're using a data-driven approach,
10 based on our inventory, based on how the
11 money that is being allocated to ITS is being
12 used, that we're of course using public
13 dollars to the best of our abilities, but
14 certainly ensuring that we are aggressively
15 pursuing these goals because New Yorkers
16 deserve modernization and of course
17 cybersecurity. Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Assembly.
20 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Otis.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you.
22 Thank you, Deputy Commissioner. Thank
23 you, Director. Good to see you both.
24 I'm going to go to cybersecurity for
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1 both of you, but first I'm going to start
2 with fire, Deputy Commissioner O'Leary. So
3 what is the experience in New York and
4 looking around the country and just sensing
5 what's happening with climate, do we have the
6 equipment we need for future fires, whether
7 they be in upstate New York or we even had
8 some fire incidents in parks in New York City
9 a few months ago.
10 Do we need to be thinking about
11 expanding our portfolio of vehicles, planes,
12 other kinds of equipment to deal with those
13 kinds of threats?
14 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: Thank
15 you for the question, sir.
16 We absolutely have to be thinking
17 about that. And we have been. And there are
18 a couple of things that we at the division
19 and our partners at DEC and the Forest
20 Rangers in particular have been thinking
21 about.
22 We've expanded the training. At a
23 certain point, more equipment doesn't help
24 with a wildland firefight, right? It's
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1 trying to just contain the fire.
2 What we saw in New York City isn't
3 what we would refer to traditionally as
4 wildland firefighting. It's more brush fire.
5 And FDNY has that capability. FDNY does
6 not -- they're the greatest fire department
7 in the world. They don't really have a
8 wildland firefighting capability. They did
9 not assist us in Jennings Creek because they
10 didn't have that capability.
11 We relied upon the DEC's partners when
12 we needed more wildland firefighters. And in
13 fact we had a tribal nation from within the
14 border of Montana come and assist us. Those
15 are the types of things that we're thinking
16 about.
17 One other thing that we've talked
18 about and I had a chance to talk with
19 Senator Scarcella-Spanton and Senator Ashby
20 about is through the departmental process,
21 the agency's going to be putting forth a bill
22 which would allow us to enter into a compact
23 with Canada, with provinces in Canada.
24 DEC currently is a part of a wildland
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1 firefighting compact with Canada. They have
2 great capabilities. They helped out in
3 Los Angeles. But this would also bring in
4 some nontraditional assets that we may need
5 along the northern border or out west where
6 they're not as quickly accessible.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: That's great. And
8 so you're on it in terms of looking for what
9 we need in the future, and that's what I
10 think I was looking for there. So that's
11 great.
12 We're going to move to cyber because I
13 have limited time. So I appreciate that.
14 So in the New York State cybersecurity
15 blueprint from August of 2023, the
16 aspirational goal was to expand the offerings
17 that state agencies provide to counties,
18 cities, school districts. And since that
19 time the state has done a good job of
20 expanding the footprint of help. And this
21 budget certainly is giving both of your
22 agencies more resources to do that.
23 What do you see in terms of expanded
24 outreach in the next year with the additional
437
1 resources? And why don't we start with
2 Director Rai first and then back to
3 Commissioner O'Leary.
4 OITS CIO RAI: Thank you, sir. Yes,
5 on the JSOC side, three major programs which
6 we're expanding EDR, or continue to, which is
7 to protect the end point. Right now our
8 numbers are close to 100,000 equipment for
9 all counties, cities, villages and
10 localities.
11 Our second major is an incident
12 response, and we are providing -- they can
13 report incidents, they can coordinate and
14 they can respond to those cyber events.
15 And the last one is attack surface
16 management, which really means that
17 everything they have internet-facing
18 application, whether it's a "pay your bill"
19 or any other place where we can look for
20 malware, ransomware or any other
21 vulnerability so we can alert them and fix it
22 before it's too late.
23 As you know, we ingest approximately
24 250,000 transactions a minute, so the volume
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1 of such a thing is very large. But thanks to
2 our partner agencies like DHSES and New York
3 State Police, we work with them helping those
4 localities.
5 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: So from
6 the division point of view, first, the
7 partnership between ITS, the CISO at ITS as
8 well as the State Police has been fantastic.
9 To build off of what the CIO said, the
10 second round of this end-point protection is
11 going to touch over 110 new municipalities.
12 We reached out and we've partnered and gotten
13 over I believe it's 54 or 55 counties into
14 the JSOC. That was over 85,000 end-points.
15 We're going to add another 100,000. That's
16 the goal. And it's going to go down an
17 additional layer of government, which is
18 really going to help protect those that have
19 less resources.
20 One of the benefits that we get out of
21 that, though, and that the CERT sees in their
22 responses, is we will see what the indicators
23 of compromise were, we will see what happened
24 that led to that cyberattack, that ransomware
439
1 attack. And we take that back and, working
2 with the NYSIC which the State Police and
3 their Cyber Analysis Unit runs, we will see,
4 one, if there's criminal activity, but also
5 we'll protect any investigation that the
6 State Police and their partners are doing,
7 but we'll share those best practices, those
8 IOCs, and put out bulletins to everybody
9 saying, Hey, you should look at your logs,
10 see if this is showing up.
11 And so that ends up being preventative
12 for everybody else. It's something that, you
13 know, a very acute response will then become
14 a best practice for everybody else across the
15 state.
16 We've been able to do this because of
17 the great partnership with the CISO, with the
18 CIO's team as a whole. And also because of
19 who we have at the CERT. The head of the
20 CERT, she's fantastic. She has these
21 relationships, people trust her, and it has
22 made people willing to come in and partner
23 with us at the JSOC.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Very good. So two
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1 of the things the Governor has in the budget
2 are expanded training by the state to state
3 agency folks and to local government folks
4 dealing in technology in terms of
5 cybersecurity training.
6 Are both of your agencies working on
7 that together? Who's really going to be
8 providing that training module for the other
9 agencies? I assume more of this is ITS, but
10 tell me how it's going to work.
11 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: So what
12 the division does now is we offer -- we will
13 do individual training and we will do
14 phishing assessments. And we actually did
15 one at the division, where we sent out a very
16 realistic but things that an average person
17 could pull off of a website, and created a
18 phishing email. And then after the phishing
19 email, we do a follow-up and we do education
20 afterwards as well.
21 I'll defer to ITS as to what they're
22 doing with the state workforce writ large.
23 What we offer is, upon request, we will work
24 with these agencies to do individual training
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1 and testing.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: That's great.
3 OITS CIO RAI: Our training is much
4 more comprehensive, to protect the state and
5 all executive agencies. And that's one of
6 the six streams we work on, cybersecurity
7 training and awareness. That includes
8 network and other systems.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Very good. Now let
10 me jump to AI, which was mentioned by my
11 counterpart in the Senate briefly.
12 So we have -- the Governor has signed
13 legislation that we worked on and did some
14 chapter amendments having to do with AI at
15 state agencies related to employment.
16 There's going to be the inventory, there's
17 going to be guidance from ITS.
18 Have you mapped out a plan of how
19 you're going to implement that? But even
20 without our legislation, my assumption is
21 that a lot of this is going on already just
22 from your own internal practices.
23 OITS CIO RAI: Correct. After
24 publishing a policy now, we are working on
442
1 details with each client agency to inventory
2 all the AI capabilities we have today and
3 make sure that those capabilities are within
4 the bounds of our policy.
5 Number two, on the Governor's behest,
6 we are working on AI training for all state
7 workers which we serve, all the executive
8 agencies. And I expect that training to be
9 out very quickly in the next few weeks.
10 We'll also be creating a sandbox so
11 that that training is hands-on, not just
12 words. People should be able to kind of
13 train the AI model, look at how good or bad
14 the model is, understand the risks and the
15 benefits and so on and so forth.
16 So that sandbox will also be coming up
17 soon, in the next weeks.
18 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: I only have
19 45 seconds left for another question.
20 Another thing the Governor has in the
21 budget is the required reporting of incidents
22 by the locals. So I guess my question for
23 either of you is, in a sense, how many
24 incidents do you think have gone on
443
1 previously that you never hear about? Do you
2 have a sense of that, or do you think you're
3 hearing about everything anyway?
4 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: We are
5 not hearing about everything anyway, and
6 that's why that proposal is there. That
7 would require any time a public entity using
8 taxpayer -- that is publicly funded is either
9 subject to ransomware or a significant
10 cyberincident. We also think this will
11 improve overall cybersecurity and allow us to
12 create those bulletins I had talked about.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you very
14 much. I may be back for more later. So
15 thank you.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
17 We have Senator Stec, ranker, five.
18 SENATOR STEC: Thank you. Thank you
19 very much.
20 I've got just a few questions here
21 today. First, for our CIO, regarding the
22 database for -- the State Police license and
23 record database that was used for ammunition
24 background checks. I was wondering if your
444
1 agencies was involved in the creation of that
2 database.
3 OITS CIO RAI: I really don't know how
4 to answer the question. But I can get back
5 to you. It was probably created way before I
6 came. But we can get you that information.
7 SENATOR STEC: Okay. All right.
8 Along those lines, assuming that you
9 were -- the background check, since it's been
10 put in place, it's been plagued with a lot of
11 issues that leads to a lot of delays in our
12 retail establishments that sell ammunition to
13 the public. And I would be curious to know
14 what efforts the agency might be undergoing
15 to ensure the functionality of the system.
16 And as a follow-up, I'm curious to
17 know what will be the cost of that system,
18 and what is the maintenance cost for -- the
19 ongoing maintenance cost for, again, the
20 ammunition background check.
21 With that said, I'll shift gears real
22 quickly, since we can't really talk about
23 that.
24 What is your department's assessment
445
1 of the current cyber threat landscape? And
2 how has it evolved in the last year?
3 OITS CIO RAI: It just continues to
4 get worse and worse, because cybersecurity or
5 cyberthreats is evolving. And from nation
6 state to -- it has become a business, just
7 like retail theft. It has also gotten more
8 complex because of the advent of AI. So it's
9 very difficult to figure out what threats are
10 real and what not.
11 So when you look at the cyberthreats
12 evolution, it just continues to get more and
13 more complicated. And I think that's why our
14 approach going forward, when it comes to
15 cybersecurity, is a no-trust architecture.
16 Traditionally when we think about
17 security, we think about protecting
18 perimeters, and we think that if a perimeter
19 is protected, then there is no problem. But
20 most of the threat comes from inside now. So
21 now we have to think about building all-new
22 systems going forward which are no-trust.
23 Especially, we have a multicloud environment,
24 which makes it even more difficult.
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1 So we expect the cyber, unfortunately,
2 to get worse when it comes to threats, and we
3 just need to be a step ahead, just protecting
4 ourselves.
5 SENATOR STEC: Okay. And then to the
6 extent that you can here publicly, can you
7 provide any background or details on the
8 department's incident response and recovery
9 capabilities in the event of a cyberattack?
10 OITS CIO RAI: For all executive
11 agencies, all incident response for
12 cyberthreats, we work with the agency. And
13 all of those things are reported, documented,
14 responded, root cause analyzed, and we try to
15 fix them so that we can avoid it.
16 At this point in time we don't have
17 any major cybersecurity incidents which we
18 would categorize as Level 1, within the
19 57 executive level agencies we serve.
20 SENATOR STEC: Okay. That's all I
21 had. Thank you very much.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 Assembly.
24 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
447
1 Palmesano.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Hi. My
3 question is for Mr. O'Leary.
4 First I wanted to say thank you to you
5 and your team. We had a devastating fire in
6 the Town of Ovid in Seneca County, and I know
7 your team was in constant communication with
8 the locals on what they can do. I know you
9 did stuff on accessibility to food and
10 housing, and I just want to say thank you to
11 you for that first.
12 I did want to talk about -- you
13 mentioned EV fires and lithium-ion batteries.
14 That's something I talk a lot about on the
15 floor relative to certain issues, and the
16 fire issue is very concerning to me. You
17 mentioned something about 80,000 firemen have
18 been trained and 50,000 -- or 80,000 first
19 responders, 50,000 firefighters. You said
20 some of them have been trained to deal with
21 lithium-ion battery fires.
22 I'm concerned about this because, you
23 know, there's this mandate for -- the
24 electric school bus mandate, which quite
448
1 frankly should be delayed and stalled till we
2 figure out some of this technology.
3 But what are you seeing -- I mean, is
4 there funding -- other than training, is
5 there funding that the state is going to be
6 providing to our local fire departments to
7 help prepare for these types of fires?
8 Because obviously, from conversations I've
9 had, that they're not familiar with how to
10 deal with this, or in some of the things they
11 say "Just let 'em burn." You know, just --
12 don't do anything, don't go -- just let 'em
13 burn.
14 So what is the state doing to deal
15 with these lithium-ion battery fires,
16 especially with the battery storage fires
17 we've seen? There were three of them in
18 2023. So this is something I think we're
19 going to continue to see, so we want to make
20 sure our first responders are properly
21 prepared and there's proper funding for these
22 local fire departments. Especially volunteer
23 fire departments.
24 What is the plan for that?
449
1 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: Sure.
2 So a few things. Training is a big part of
3 it. And I don't have the exact number, but I
4 believe it's about 2,000 firefighters have
5 been trained just on the new lithium-ion
6 battery course that we've put out.
7 We obviously work with the FDNY, who
8 has a lot of lessons learned. And to your
9 point, a lithium-ion battery fire is a
10 different type of fire. Right? It will
11 restart. You think it's out, and then it
12 starts again. What do you do? In terms of
13 letting it burn, you'll think it's out and it
14 reignites.
15 With the larger battery energy storage
16 systems as well, there are concerns about
17 whether there's off-gassing and what may be
18 in the air.
19 What we've done in terms of actual
20 response is we've tried to supplement the
21 local fire departments, whether they are
22 career or volunteer fire department. With
23 air monitoring, we've partnered with DEC.
24 NYSERDA has also been actively involved in
450
1 helping to understand the issues that
2 lithium-ion battery fires present.
3 We -- so we do the training. We also
4 help supplement the response with our hazmat
5 function, and creating awareness. That's
6 been our main focus. And we think that's
7 probably the best tool, right? We're never
8 going to be the first responders, but if we
9 can arm the local first responders, whether
10 they're volunteer or career service, with
11 this knowledge, we're really pushing that
12 aspect of it.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Okay. And
14 then just real quick, I mean, I know you said
15 the training's very important. I appreciate
16 that. Do you see any other funding coming
17 from your agency directly to the fire
18 departments to help prepare them outside the
19 training, like whether it's equipment and
20 other things? Or is it just more of a
21 training focus?
22 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: Well,
23 there's the 25 million in the budget for
24 V-FIRE, so obviously we're excited to
451
1 continue that.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thank you for
3 your time.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
5 We next have Senator Murray.
6 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
7 Madam Chair.
8 And I'm going to continue on that
9 line, Commissioner O'Leary, with the
10 lithium-ion batteries.
11 First, let me clear up. Is the task
12 force, the lithium-ion battery task force,
13 the same as the Interagency Fire Safety
14 Working Group? Is that the same thing?
15 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: I don't
16 know.
17 SENATOR MURRAY: Okay. We heard --
18 well, let me expand.
19 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: I
20 wouldn't say -- I think it depends who the
21 members are. I know there are multiple
22 task forces with multiple names.
23 SENATOR MURRAY: Right. The Governor
24 mentioned she was going to put this together
452
1 because she recognized the dangers and the
2 fires and the problems. You mentioned almost
3 400 of these fires.
4 So first off, we are not really aware
5 of any meeting or when they met, how they
6 met, where are the meetings. I checked your
7 website; there's nothing on there about this.
8 And we have a lot of people -- in my district
9 back in Suffolk County, there are quite a few
10 proposed -- big battery storage facilities
11 that are being proposed, and every
12 firefighter, volunteer firefighter I've
13 talked to has said "We're not ready for
14 this." They are petrified.
15 I know you said there's some training.
16 Of the stipends that are there, is any of it
17 specifically designated for how to handle
18 these fires?
19 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: So the
20 task force that the Governor called and put
21 together is what I was talking to
22 Assemblymember Palmesano about, where we have
23 worked with DEC, we have worked with NYSERDA,
24 we're talked to the fire service, largely
453
1 through the Office of Fire Prevention and
2 Control, as well as with industry. Right?
3 NYSERDA, they're the scientists in the
4 room -- they know the scientists in the room,
5 to understand what threats are posed.
6 We have worked with the local fire
7 departments, whether they're career or
8 volunteer, when they have raised concerns.
9 We have talked about this at the career chief
10 meetings. We have worked with FASNY to raise
11 awareness among the volunteer leadership.
12 I've personally spoken to Rudy Sunderman
13 about this issue, amongst others. So it is
14 raising awareness.
15 Unfortunately, we had a pretty large
16 battery energy storage fire up in Chaumont
17 last year. There were lessons learned from
18 that in terms of monitoring -- where you
19 stay, you know, how close can you get, is it
20 a fire you want to approach or let burn.
21 Those are the things that we were putting
22 together.
23 And we've actively been pushing that
24 out. That's incorporated into the training
454
1 that we're making available, which is free of
2 charge to any firefighter.
3 SENATOR MURRAY: Commissioner, we're
4 short, so my concern is this. The
5 firefighters -- we have a lot of these
6 facilities moving forward. The firefighters
7 are saying: We're not ready, we're just not.
8 They've done training where they ended up
9 having to let it burn. They did one with an
10 electric vehicle. It burned for three days.
11 It reignited twice.
12 Thinking of a huge battery storage
13 facility near homes, near schools, near
14 neighborhoods, we're not ready. I mean, how
15 much more training will there be? Can we put
16 the brakes on this? Can the Governor put the
17 brakes on this?
18 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: On the
19 training? I hope not.
20 SENATOR MURRAY: No, not the training.
21 The facilities.
22 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: So
23 that's why we work with NYSERDA as well.
24 We're there to make sure that the fire
455
1 service is appropriately trained.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry, I have to
3 cut you off and go on.
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
5 Assemblyman Ra.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you, Chair.
7 Good afternoon. I just wanted to talk
8 a little bit more about the increases in the
9 ITS budget. And my understanding is about
10 80 million has been provided for state data
11 centers and the growth of Empire AI.
12 Can you go over some of the goals of
13 the new data centers and what the office
14 hopes to accomplish with these additional
15 resources?
16 OITS CIO RAI: Yeah. Our data center
17 equipment needs to be refreshed, from
18 circuits to cables to servers. That houses
19 multiple applications today, and those
20 end-of-life equipment needs to be updated.
21 And that's what that capital or
22 capital investment is going to go to.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. And as this
24 program now -- obviously, we made, you know,
456
1 a significant investment last year and again
2 this year. Do you know at this point what --
3 some of the applications that we're going to
4 be seeing from the Empire AI program?
5 OITS CIO RAI: Sir, Empire AI has
6 nothing to do with this program. I just want
7 to clarify. This is a ITS infrastructure
8 investment, which we support 6,000-plus
9 systems for executive agencies. This
10 investment is for ITS only. This has nothing
11 to do with Empire State.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: The proposal in the
13 Governor's budget to mandate cybersecurity
14 training for all state and local municipal
15 employees talks about employees who work with
16 technology as part of their official duties.
17 Can you detail, you know, what we're
18 considering an official duty in terms of who
19 is going to be required to have this
20 training?
21 OITS CIO RAI: So right now we are in
22 a very initial phase of understanding the
23 requirements for our agencies and their
24 employees. But almost all the work is going
457
1 to be serving to -- I mean, the services to
2 New Yorkers.
3 At this point we are working on
4 building a system so that basic education --
5 so people understand what are the
6 possibilities. And then when we make those
7 plans, we plan to roll out all employees.
8 And then that will be followed by
9 creating a sandbox. The sandbox will create
10 a private instance where each agency will
11 house its own data, have its own model. And
12 then after those testing and training is
13 done, then we will come to a stage where we
14 will probably take the use cases in each
15 agency and then see those use cases, what is
16 the output of those models to see how good
17 those models are, and then those
18 implementations.
19 This is going to be a journey for a
20 while for us to educate, train, sandbox,
21 create model, perfect model. And then
22 hopefully this whole exercise brings
23 efficiency in our agencies to serve
24 New Yorkers better and faster.
458
1 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. And these
2 training programs, is there a plan, kind of
3 curriculum of what they're going to be
4 trained on? Is that something that's being
5 done internally or that's going to be
6 contracted with some other entity? How does
7 that part work?
8 OITS CIO RAI: We're working with a
9 couple of partners at this point in time to
10 put the training, what I will call education
11 as soon as possible. We just got started on
12 this plan as we speak. So I'm hoping that in
13 the next few weeks we will have the initial
14 catalog of training, curriculum, out there
15 for our employees to learn.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 I might be the last Senator. So
19 Mr. Rai, a lot of discussion about
20 cybersecurity, a lot of money added to the
21 budget. So from previous hearings there was
22 quite a bit of discussion among my colleagues
23 that we continue to have an enormous problem
24 of people stealing SNAP money from thousands
459
1 of people. I think it's millions of dollars
2 we've lost now, and we aren't going to be
3 replacing it anymore. So we have to move to
4 chip cards, which is a very common technology
5 on all kinds of things. All my credit
6 cards are chip cards.
7 And yet I kept getting answers and my
8 colleagues kept getting answers from the
9 Office of Temporary and Disability Assistance
10 that wasn't really clear whether they weren't
11 handling the contracts, maybe it was you,
12 whether there were problems with this,
13 whether there was a money problem.
14 But I understand the federal
15 government will pick up half the cost, but
16 who knows in next year's federal government.
17 So it feels like we really need to move
18 quickly, and we need to protect these
19 people's benefits from not being stolen
20 because there's no mechanism for replacement.
21 And so could you help me understand
22 how your office can help us speed this along?
23 OITS CIO RAI: Senator, great
24 question. I am not aware of the detail of
460
1 that. I have heard of that program. I will
2 actually go back and take a look.
3 We can -- as you can imagine payments
4 and chips is just the tip of the iceberg.
5 There is a whole eligibility, rules,
6 regulations written in the software. So we
7 need to make sure that the chip -- you know,
8 the credit card is attached to those rules
9 and regulations. But I really need to kind
10 of get into the detail.
11 We definitely can help, I know that.
12 I just personally don't have enough
13 information on this program at this point.
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So I urge us to
15 try to speed this up. Other states have
16 already done it, so the federal regs are not
17 only allowing it but actually they give us
18 half the money, so -- and who knows, again,
19 with this administration, when that storyline
20 changes. So I just feel like if other
21 states, even smaller states, have pulled this
22 off already -- and apparently the criminals
23 involved with stealing the money have been
24 targeting us in New York State.
461
1 So it's just my urge that we try to
2 get something done as quickly as possible.
3 And I do think of it as cybersecurity, maybe
4 not the same kind of visual as some other
5 people's concerns.
6 Thank you. I'm not going to use the
7 rest of my time.
8 Assembly.
9 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Bores.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you both for
11 being here.
12 First, to the CIO, last year we passed
13 a bill, the Governor signed my bill and
14 Senator Gonzalez's bill to require agencies
15 to make plans around cloud computing and to
16 consult with your office as they do that.
17 How is that -- have agencies reached
18 out to you yet? Is that outreach starting?
19 OITS CIO RAI: Yes. Yes, sir. I
20 think every new greenfield program which
21 comes to us, we -- our first step is to --
22 how can we do that faster. I mean, that's
23 what the cloud actually does, is to move
24 things faster.
462
1 And I can report that in the last
2 12 months the acceleration towards cloud has
3 gotten faster and probably will continue that
4 way, because we see things moving faster.
5 The application development is faster, the
6 go live is faster, and so on and so forth.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: If I may, I want
8 to ask another question, which is DEC in the
9 budget request this year is asking for
10 30 million to continue their integration with
11 SFS. That comes after 18 million initially
12 and 10 million last year. It's almost more
13 than the entire SFS budget.
14 Is this going to be their last
15 request? Are there things we need to learn
16 from this going forward?
17 OITS CIO RAI: I have to get back to
18 you on that specific program. I was not
19 aware of the past.
20 As I can tell you, that if I had
21 things my way done, we'd be moving to cloud
22 much faster. As you can imagine, there are
23 dependencies, there are application
24 dependencies, then organizational process
463
1 dependency, which -- but wherever we could,
2 working with that agency.
3 And most of our agencies have been
4 very supportive of that, especially if it
5 requires a business transformation.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you. If you
7 don't mind, I'd like to ask DHSES one
8 question. Thank you.
9 I think you were here for the last
10 session, you heard my last question about the
11 72 percent increase in DMNA for New York City
12 for terrorism. Again, you've mentioned more
13 funding for terrorism. I just -- you know,
14 what should we be taking away from that
15 increase?
16 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: So the
17 increase within the division is actually for
18 a foreign malign influence --
19 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: No, no, I know
20 that. I'm asking about the DMNA increase,
21 that 72 percent for the joint task force.
22 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: Sure.
23 So I can speak to what the division pays for.
24 The division is the pass-through. We fund
464
1 approximately 13 million of what DMNA has.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Understood. I
3 guess the question is, is DMNA testifying
4 before us?
5 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: I think
6 that would be a question for the chair.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Do you know the
8 last time they've testified?
9 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: I
10 don't.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: If someone came to
12 you and asked for a 72 percent increase in
13 their budget, or $45 million, would you want
14 three minutes to ask them questions?
15 (No response.)
16 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you.
17 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: You're
18 welcome.
19 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Okay, I have just a
20 couple of quick questions before we go to our
21 three-minute follow-ups.
22 Mr. Rai, you handle information
23 technology for the entire state, correct?
24 Now, several months ago there were a number
465
1 of cities in the southern part of New York
2 that were held hostage to ransomware. And
3 just three weeks ago the City of Mount Vernon
4 was robbed of $400,000 through some computer
5 scam that no one's ever shared with me. But
6 it did happen, and the city is out that
7 money.
8 Is there any thought of having a
9 secure entity for all communities in New York
10 to gravitate under? Something like the
11 Department of Defense, it's supposed to be
12 impregnable except by a few nerds.
13 But -- because what's happening now is
14 that each community is left on its own. Some
15 don't have the money to afford a good
16 security system. And if the state's spending
17 tens of millions of dollars right now, if we
18 could have one massive security system for
19 all the communities in the state, I think it
20 would be helpful.
21 I don't believe that's in this year's
22 budget, but is that a possibility?
23 OITS CIO RAI: It would be a
24 speculation on my part, but I would say that
466
1 our JSOC, which includes the attack surface
2 management, which actually looks for malware
3 and ransomware, is a good sort of a first
4 step where we ingest all the data. We see a
5 problem in one part of the state or nation,
6 we alert everybody.
7 We can definitely extend those, which
8 is the plan. But the thing is a little more
9 complicated because if somebody does a
10 phishing email and you click on that email,
11 it doesn't matter how much security you do,
12 you're going to get a malware. So this
13 requires a ton of education awareness.
14 So I think the JSOC program, which
15 will solve a ton of problems -- I'm not sure
16 if it's going to take care of everything, but
17 if this program continues to expand, which is
18 what we're working on, it will definitely
19 reduce the instances of such proportion.
20 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: So you just have to
21 be leery of that and make sure that you're
22 not doing -- okay, speaking of leery,
23 Mr. O'Leary.
24 (Laughter.)
467
1 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: These batteries
2 that we're always talking about, how do they
3 actually cause the fires? They don't just
4 sit there and just catch fire -- or do they?
5 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: They
6 can ignite without an external source, yes.
7 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: So it's not during
8 charging, if they're just sitting on your
9 kitchen table, like it could just ignite and
10 start a fire in the kitchen?
11 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: That is
12 my understanding. I'm not an expert in the
13 area of what causes this. But yes, they will
14 ignite without an external source.
15 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: And is this done --
16 I'm really confused now. If the battery is
17 totally discharged, it will still catch fire?
18 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: While
19 it's not charging, yes. That's my
20 understanding, it can catch fire.
21 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Even discharged.
22 So how should a consumer --
23 DHSES DEP. EX. CMMR. O'LEARY: If it's
24 -- I'm sorry, do you mean if it's charging
468
1 or --
2 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: No, it was
3 discharged. You have a dead battery. The
4 battery's dead, what do I do with it?
5 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: I don't
6 know. I call OFPC and I ask them, What do I
7 do with it?
8 No. So you do need to dispose of it
9 appropriately. And we have guidance on how
10 to do that. But the problem is these
11 batteries will catch fire if they're not in
12 use. Also if they're being charged. That's
13 what you've seen in New York City, with these
14 charging stations for secondhand batteries,
15 right? The non-UL-approved batteries.
16 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Yeah, I have heard
17 about them, you know, catching fire when
18 charging. And a friend of mine's house
19 burned down, literally burned down, because
20 he was charging his phone with one of the
21 dollar-store chargers. So that can cause it.
22 But my question is if you're
23 discarding a battery, no one really knows how
24 to properly -- you know, to get rid of it.
469
1 And just last week, a garbage truck in my
2 district in Yonkers caught fire and burned to
3 the hubs because someone threw a battery
4 away.
5 So no one knows what to do with these
6 batteries. Most people don't know how to
7 recognize the batteries. And they're causing
8 a lot of fires. And fires generally tend to
9 cause deaths. And I think that's what we
10 don't want to happen in this state.
11 So do you have any guidance that I
12 could give people, or do we need more money
13 in the budget for education on how to
14 recognize these batteries and, once you do
15 recognize that you possess one of the
16 batteries, how to get rid of it?
17 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: So what
18 I'll say is what we're doing at the
19 division -- I can speak to what the division
20 is doing -- based upon an addition to last
21 year's budget, we created the Community Risk
22 Reduction Unit, which they are targeting
23 separate communities with their specific
24 community risk as to fire.
470
1 As I was talking about in New York
2 City and other urban areas, it's the
3 micromobility devices and the second --
4 off-market batteries that cause these fires.
5 So we're creating outreach materials
6 as the unit is being stood up that will reach
7 out to not only the fire departments but the
8 communities as well, to say here's your risk,
9 here's what you need to do. So that work has
10 started within OFPC.
11 In terms of the science of it, I would
12 defer to NYSERDA. That's why the Governor
13 brought them in and has them tasked with
14 working with OFPC and the division on the
15 fire side, as well as DEC on the
16 environmental side as well.
17 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Okay. I think
18 we're a long way from solving this issue.
19 Assemblyman Otis for his three-minute
20 follow-up. Thank you.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you,
22 gentlemen.
23 So one issue related to cybertheft is
24 the difficulty of enforcement. If you're big
471
1 enough, the FBI gets involved. In some parts
2 of the state, some district attorney's
3 offices have built up some expertise in this.
4 But from your different vantage
5 points -- which are not really enforcement, I
6 understand that. But from your vantage
7 point, where do you think we as a state or in
8 this country can do a better job of providing
9 a deterrent for people to do cybertheft?
10 Because much of it basically goes
11 uninvestigated and unprosecuted.
12 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: So in
13 terms of the criminal side of cyber theft,
14 that's where the New York State Police and
15 the Cyber Analysis Unit would be the lead for
16 the state.
17 As you mentioned, they obviously
18 partner with the FBI and other federal
19 partners, as well as local law enforcement.
20 What we are focused on in the division
21 is creating deterrence by having a stronger
22 state network -- partnering with ITS, but
23 also doing training for individuals as well
24 as local governments and county governments,
472
1 making sure that they take those basic steps.
2 The overwhelming majority of
3 cyberincidents is because someone didn't
4 change their password. Someone's lazy, they
5 clicked on a phishing link. They didn't
6 engage in basic cyber hygiene. So we think,
7 through prevention, that's the best way to
8 combat this.
9 I would defer to the State Police,
10 though, on any questions about criminal
11 activity.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Sure, thank you.
13 And so the deterrence, in terms of
14 prevention, is a piece. But as the -- again,
15 the August '23 report came out, we're
16 suffering billions of dollars in loss in this
17 state. So Director?
18 OITS CIO RAI: It's -- 90-plus percent
19 of cyberattacks are caused by somebody left
20 the door open. Training, training, training,
21 training is the key. Cyber should become
22 part of the culture. Just like we don't
23 trust strangers on the road, you can't trust
24 anything you see online.
473
1 We have to create a culture of
2 no-trust on cyber, train and aware people.
3 That will dramatically reduce the cyber
4 crimes from happening.
5 And then you come to, whether it's an
6 individual or the business, they just need to
7 start deploying some protection, basic stuff
8 from end-point protection to network
9 protection and so on and so on and so forth.
10 Those are the things which will really help
11 proactively.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN OTIS: Thank you very
13 much. And thank you both for the fact that
14 we have your expertise in state government.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And then
16 Senator Gonzalez for her last three minutes,
17 as our closer.
18 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Thank you.
19 Well, hello, Executive Deputy
20 Commissioner O'Leary. Thank you so much for
21 your testimony. And I've certainly
22 appreciated the conversation around
23 cybersecurity today.
24 As you know very well, the state and
474
1 its subdivisions are regular cybersecurity
2 threats. There are also many common low-cost
3 high-impact efforts we can take to harden our
4 state's cybersecurity posture. Are there
5 other cost-effective techniques that entities
6 that you are responsible for could be using
7 to harden their cyber defense?
8 And then again, I brought up our
9 multifactor authentication bill earlier. We
10 certainly also have the Secure Data Act,
11 which would require the use of segmented
12 backups with data verification that are
13 stored in immutable copies.
14 Are there other things like that that
15 we can pursue as a state?
16 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: So what
17 we do at the division beyond the partnership
18 we have with ITS -- and I really can't
19 underscore what the CIO stated. The JSOC is
20 truly -- it's cutting-edge in what we're
21 doing in terms of who it's providing services
22 to.
23 With the end-point protection and
24 attack surface awareness, it's covering over
475
1 13 million -- a government that's serving
2 over 13 million New Yorkers. And we're
3 looking to expand that. That is truly
4 fantastic in terms of protecting government.
5 What we do in other parts of the
6 agency as well -- obviously we are not
7 responsible for the state system. We work
8 closely with the CIO on that. But we create
9 intelligence awareness bulletins that go out
10 to local law enforcement, county law
11 enforcement, as well as owners of critical
12 infrastructure. We belong to the MS-ISAC.
13 We work closely with the Center for Internet
14 Security to make sure that owners of critical
15 infrastructure are also prepared. Right?
16 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Yeah, it's
17 certainly helpful, as you all are experts, to
18 get guidance from you on what the state can
19 be doing.
20 My second question is on domestic
21 terrorism. I know that we've seen an
22 increase in threats, and I would love to hear
23 an assessment of the current landscape in
24 New York State, if you've seen an increase in
476
1 the number of threats.
2 DHSES EX. DEP. CMMR. O'LEARY: So what
3 I'll say is there's no known current active
4 threat facing New York.
5 However -- and this has been over the
6 last two presidential administrations --
7 federal law enforcement has been very clear
8 that the most lethal threat, or terrorist
9 threat facing the country is domestic
10 terrorism, often fueled by either white
11 supremacy or antisemitism.
12 We see that, we address that in many
13 different ways with outreach and partnership,
14 facilitating the federal Nonprofit Security
15 Grant Program, as well as other
16 counterterrorism dollars that we pass out.
17 I will also say, in my last 15
18 seconds, that the threat assessment
19 management team that Governor Hochul called
20 for and we stood up following the Buffalo
21 massacre, we went from one county having a
22 threat assessment management team to now
23 47 counties.
24 And following the events at Cornell
477
1 and the New School, we've expanded that to
2 partnering with universities and colleges as
3 well.
4 SENATOR GONZALEZ: Okay, thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate your
7 time with us today.
8 Now, before the next panel comes down,
9 I'm calling an audible. And so we are
10 trading Panel D and Panel E. I'm calling
11 Panel E first, which is Robert Ricks, the
12 father of Robert Brooks that we have spent so
13 much time discussing, the Legal Aid Society
14 of New York, and the Innocence Project.
15 And again, we are no longer in the
16 government invited panels, so everyone will
17 only have three minutes to speak and all the
18 legislators only get three minutes to ask
19 questions.
20 We're still in afternoon, so good
21 afternoon, everyone.
22 MR. RICKS: Good afternoon.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And just starting
24 from my right, just say your name first.
478
1 We'll just go down the row so that the tech
2 people, who hopefully heard me say Panel E,
3 not Panel D, are the people we have in front
4 of us.
5 Please.
6 MS. WALLWIN: Amanda Wallwin,
7 Innocence Project.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 MS. FONTIER: Alice Fontier, Legal Aid
10 Society.
11 MR. RICKS: Robert Lee Ricks, the
12 father of Robert Lee Brooks.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 Why don't we start with you,
15 Mr. Ricks, if that's okay.
16 MR. RICKS: Pardon me?
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Are you ready?
18 MR. RICKS: As ready as I'm gonna be,
19 I guess.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay.
21 MR. RICKS: So good afternoon, Senator
22 Krueger, Assemblymember Pretlow, and all the
23 distinguished Senators and Assemblymembers
24 present.
479
1 I too am America. I'm the darker
2 brother. I need to say that because I think
3 you all forget that sometimes. I think you
4 all forget the investments that Black and
5 brown people have made, the sacrifices, the
6 blood, the sweat, the tears, the over
7 400 years of free labor.
8 The preamble of the Constitution
9 begins "We the People of the United States."
10 We the people too. Pauper, president,
11 priest, prisoner or poser, we the people too.
12 I am Robert Lee Ricks, and I'm the
13 father of the late Robert Lee Brooks -- and
14 it sounds crazy to me to even say that. He
15 was murdered in December of 2024 at the Marcy
16 Correctional Facility by New York Department
17 of Corrections staff. Not an inmate, staff.
18 I'm appalled by the lack of
19 accountability for the correction officers
20 involved and the absolute failure of our
21 state government to address the decades-old
22 problems of violence against prisoners and
23 the New York correctional facilities.
24 I'm not going to waste time providing
480
1 you with data and facts and figures about the
2 number of reported assaults and the millions
3 paid to settle cases brought by prisoners.
4 Former Attorney General Eric Schneiderman
5 advised me that you all have all that
6 information available to you.
7 But the emotional toll that this
8 situation has taken on me, my family, my
9 community, has been devastating. And no
10 financial compensation can replace the loss
11 of my son.
12 But you have the power -- you have the
13 power to demand accountability and enact the
14 major reform needed to end the epidemic of
15 systemic taxpayer-funded violence. I truly
16 believe that my son died so others may live.
17 I truly believe that my son sacrificed his
18 life so other sons and daughters and mothers
19 and uncles and aunts may live.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: (Mic off;
21 inaudible.)
22 MS. FONTIER: Thank you. And thank
23 you for the opportunity to address you today.
24 Thank you for being here, sir.
481
1 I have submitted testimony, written
2 testimony which addresses a number of
3 specific requests. I'm going to use my
4 limited time here today to talk only about
5 discovery.
6 For the first time, in 2020
7 New Yorkers accused of crimes were able to
8 access the evidence against them and make
9 informed decisions in their cases. This
10 landmark discovery law finally provided the
11 accused with the basic building blocks for
12 fairness in our system.
13 The laws themselves are a success.
14 People are no longer forced to take pleas
15 without understanding the case against them.
16 The Governor and DAs have argued that
17 court efficiency, dismissals and public
18 safety have been impacted by this access to
19 evidence. But these claims do not hold up
20 under scrutiny.
21 Chief Administrative Judge Zayas just
22 this morning explained the cause of court
23 delay in his testimony. We thank him for
24 stating unequivocally that he and OCA
482
1 supported the 2020 discovery laws, and I can
2 assure you that no one -- no one -- wants an
3 efficient and fair court process more than
4 the people that we represent. Those people,
5 people like Mr. Brooks who face accusations
6 and then the consequences of being inside of
7 the system, do not want court delay. The
8 defense is not gaming the system. We are not
9 causing delay, and Judge Zayas addressed that
10 this morning.
11 The next panel will address the
12 dismissal rates on cases, but I want to
13 repeat indicted felonies are not getting
14 dismissed because of discovery or speedy
15 trial. In New York City, if the prosecutors
16 had access to the NYPD database and records,
17 the dismissal rates on misdemeanors would
18 also go down.
19 Senator Myrie's bill -- thank you for
20 introducing it, sir -- S613, addresses this
21 problem of access to police records in
22 New York City and will correct that issue.
23 It should be passed.
24 As to public safety, let me put it
483
1 very simply. There is no connection between
2 access to evidence and recidivism. It does
3 not exist. If somebody says that to you,
4 make them prove it.
5 There is no question that the 2020
6 discovery laws have changed the way that we
7 practice. And let me be perfectly clear:
8 That is a very good thing. We are required
9 to review evidence and explain it to our
10 clients. We have to do it efficiently and
11 timely. This Legislature put money into the
12 budget in the last two years. The Legal Aid
13 Society was the very first of the defense
14 organizations to be able to access that
15 money, and through it we invested in
16 technology, the NICE justice system, as well
17 as in litigation assistance and staffing.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Next.
20 MS. WALLWIN: Hi. My name is
21 Amanda Wallwin. I'm a state policy advocate
22 with the Innocence Project.
23 The Innocence Project is a national
24 organization founded in New York that
484
1 represents wrongfully convicted clients
2 across the country. We also work to enact
3 state-level policy reforms that prevent and
4 reveal wrongful convictions.
5 The Innocence Project was a leading
6 voice in the fight for discovery reform in
7 2019, and I'm here today to tell you about
8 how well this reform has worked to prevent
9 the withholding of exculpatory evidence
10 leading to wrongful convictions.
11 I'll start with a few very notable
12 statistics. From 2015 to 2019, 62 percent of
13 all New York exonerations included withheld
14 exculpatory evidence. If you look only at
15 convictions in that time period that were
16 overturned within five years, that percentage
17 rises to 67 percent.
18 From 2020, when discovery reform was
19 enacted, until now, five years later, there
20 have been zero exonerations that have
21 included withheld exculpatory evidence. I'm
22 going to say that again. From 2020, when
23 discovery reform was enacted, until now, five
24 years later, there have been zero convictions
485
1 that were later overturned due to withheld
2 exculpatory evidence. Discovery reform
3 worked.
4 We've all heard the devastating story
5 of Kalief Browder, so I won't repeat that
6 one, but I want to share the story of someone
7 else who was harmed by poor discovery
8 practices: Renay Lynch.
9 Renay Lynch was sentenced to 25 years
10 to life in prison after she was found guilty
11 of being an accomplice to the robbery and
12 murder of Louise Cicelsky in Amherst, just
13 outside of Buffalo. In 2020, Renay's
14 post-conviction counsel, including innocence
15 project attorneys, discovered that police had
16 hidden fingerprint evidence from the crime
17 scene. When the 13 hidden prints were
18 examined, nine of them matched a tenant of
19 Ms. Cicelsky's who had a prior manslaughter
20 conviction. None of the prints matched Renay
21 Lynch.
22 Renay served 24 years in prison for
23 this crime. She was released on parole in
24 2022 and finally exonerated just last year.
486
1 Renay has two children and six
2 grandchildren. During Renay's incarceration,
3 her daughter moved from Atlanta to Buffalo,
4 where Renay was in prison, so that Renay
5 could see all of her grandkids as often as
6 possible. Renay and her family will never
7 reclaim those 24 years.
8 The Legislature knows the damage of
9 wrongful convictions. That's why you passed
10 discovery reform in 2019 and why you've
11 allocated hundreds of millions of dollars to
12 make it work. You knew that it was long past
13 time for New York to join the national
14 mainstream and modernize our evidence-sharing
15 statute. Nationwide, prosecutors -- in large
16 jurisdictions with high caseloads, and in
17 small remote jurisdictions with few
18 resources -- are able to handle this basic
19 constitutional requirement, and you knew that
20 New York shouldn't be the exception.
21 And you now know that the law you
22 passed has had its intended effect. It has
23 reduced wrongful convictions. The Innocence
24 Project urges you not to act to intentionally
487
1 omit Part B, the Governor's misguided
2 discovery repeal, from your one-house
3 budgets.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Our first questioner will be -- excuse
7 me -- well, it doesn't matter that she's the
8 chair for this purpose, but she is very
9 importantly the chair, Julia Salazar.
10 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you, Chair.
11 Thank you all for your testimony. I
12 will focus my questions to Mr. Ricks, and
13 particularly in a moment want to give you
14 more time to finish your testimony.
15 But I wanted to first ask -- and of
16 course express again how deeply sorry I am
17 for the loss of your son. His death is a
18 dark stain on our collective conscience, and
19 I deeply appreciate you being here, sharing
20 him with us.
21 Could you actually briefly just talk
22 about changes that you believe need to be
23 made in our correctional facilities? And
24 where do we begin?
488
1 MR. RICKS: I don't think there --
2 it's a lot that needs to change. For the
3 last couple of months I have received a lot
4 of phone calls, a lot of text messages, a lot
5 of Facebook messages just saying the amount
6 of things that -- there are a lot of
7 atrocities that take place in the prisons. I
8 mean, mothers who can't see their sons
9 because their son's been beat up so bad that
10 they don't want to let them see him. Broken
11 bones, prisoners just disappearing, not able
12 to even contact -- the parents can't even
13 contact them.
14 So I think that just -- there's just
15 so much. And prior to my son being murdered
16 and me seeing it on TV, nobody could have
17 told me that these things were transpiring in
18 our jails and in our prisons. So I think
19 that a lot of things, a lot of things need to
20 change.
21 I support your bills in the Prison
22 Safety is Public Safety package. I support
23 the Senate Bill 844, which would toll the
24 statute of limitations for prisoners, giving
489
1 them three years after release to file
2 lawsuits against an abusive prison staff. I
3 support the creation of an independent
4 special prosecutor to prosecute crimes
5 committed by correctional staff against
6 prisoners.
7 It is crystal clear that the current
8 system of accountability is broken. The
9 Attorney General defends DOCCS and DOCCS
10 employees, so she has a conflict of interest.
11 And I do not trust the district attorneys who
12 represent the counties where prisoners are
13 located and correction staffs are their
14 constituents. I don't trust them to do
15 justice in these challenging cases.
16 I believe that there is a lot that
17 needs to be done as far as the prison system
18 is concerned. Prior to now, prior to seeing
19 my son in a body bag, I wouldn't have
20 believed it. I wouldn't have believed it.
21 SENATOR SALAZAR: Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Dilan.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Mr. Ricks, you
24 said something yesterday to the caucus that
490
1 will stay with me and that's to do the next
2 right thing. And I believe this is for us
3 the beginning of that process.
4 So I guess in your words, could you
5 continue to talk about further reforms that
6 you wish to see from our state and from our
7 department of corrections?
8 MR. RICKS: Well, I had the
9 opportunity to sit and talk with a bunch of
10 Senators and a bunch of Assemblymen that have
11 a desire to push those forward. And I think
12 that there are good -- I think that they all
13 should be considered, they all should be
14 heard. Because we're not just talking about
15 one or two situations here.
16 We're talking about just so many
17 different things that are just -- that are
18 just -- all the way to the fact that the way
19 the system is set up currently -- like I used
20 to send my son a hundred dollars a month
21 because I just didn't want him to be there
22 needing anything or wanting anything. For me
23 to send him that money, it cost me money to
24 send him that money. And then I have to put
491
1 money on my phone in order to talk to my son.
2 I mean, just things like that is just
3 like for a community where finances is always
4 a problem, and our community is where most of
5 the young men and young women end up in these
6 situations. So basically you're taking money
7 from a community that struggles with trying
8 to generate or have money to do the bare
9 necessities. So just things like that.
10 But, you know, the bigger picture is
11 that I want the men and women in our
12 community to come back to our community
13 better than they was when they -- before they
14 became incarcerated. Better than they were
15 when they went into the penal system.
16 I thought that that was what the
17 prison system was supposed to be about,
18 making men and women better men and women.
19 Not -- for lack of a better term, trying to
20 help them get back on track. Yes, they did a
21 crime. They're being punished for their
22 crime. But don't come out in worse positions
23 than you was when you went in.
24 And then, you know, you got felony
492
1 stamped across your forehead, so it's hard to
2 get a job. So it's just -- the whole system
3 just seems like it's a setup to fail. It's
4 just a setup for the recidivism rate.
5 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Thank you. And
6 for our sake, I hope that the immediate
7 arrest and prosecution of those responsible
8 happens as soon as possible. It's been over
9 60 days, and no one has yet been held to
10 account.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
13 The next Senator is Senator Persaud.
14 SENATOR PERSAUD: Thank you.
15 Thank you all for being here.
16 Mr. Ricks, I appreciate your
17 testimony. You know, when you said that you
18 think that your son lost his life so that no
19 other son or daughter should, what
20 specific -- you know, you hear the talk about
21 that facility should close.
22 But closing the facility, in my
23 opinion, is not going to change what
24 happened. It's about changing the culture.
493
1 Because the people who were committing the
2 crimes on your son were comfortable in doing
3 so. They were comfortable. And I don't
4 think it's only the corrections officers that
5 we should be looking at, we should be looking
6 at the medical team that was there also and
7 asking them the questions.
8 So what's your opinion on that, about
9 the requests for closure only?
10 MR. RICKS: I agree. I don't -- I
11 don't see how people that are that -- what I
12 see as evil -- when I see that video, I see
13 14 evil people beating somebody to death.
14 And so for me, it's like how do they
15 even find their way into a position where
16 they're responsible for other people's lives?
17 That is like -- I can't wrap my head around
18 that. Um ... (pause).
19 SENATOR PERSAUD: Take your time.
20 MR. RICKS: It's hard. It's really,
21 really, really difficult. (Pause.)
22 I think that the way that our society
23 is currently set up -- I know in the Bible it
24 says money is the root of all evil, and I'm
494
1 really, really starting to believe that. But
2 the way our society is made up, if it doesn't
3 affect the finances, then it's probably not
4 going to affect the person or the community.
5 For me, closing Marcy says that, okay,
6 if these types of things are happening in
7 your prison, one of your main sources of
8 income in your community, then it's highly
9 likely that your prison will be closed. So
10 that's what closing Marcy does for the
11 system: It sends a warning.
12 I also thought like, okay, if you
13 close Marcy, then the guards are just going
14 to go and do the same thing in other prisons.
15 But I think that it's -- you know, it's
16 twofold. One, I mean, when you hit a person
17 in their pockets, it makes them consider how
18 they're conducting themselves.
19 I think that there should be a much
20 better way of screening people that are
21 responsible for the lives of other people.
22 When my son was incarcerated, I
23 honestly believed that he was going in and he
24 was going to come out better. And he was in
495
1 that process. He was less than a year of
2 coming home on good time. He had gotten his
3 GED. He had gotten his sign language
4 certificate. He was taking horticulture
5 classes. He was talking about all these
6 things that he wanted to do.
7 I've been working with young people
8 for the last 32 years of my life, and he
9 wanted to come home and do some of the things
10 that I did. So he was getting ready to come
11 home. He was getting ready to be a member of
12 the Second Chance Club, you know. And he was
13 denied that chance. He was denied that
14 chance.
15 And the thing is that those are some
16 of the most productive and influential people
17 in reference to our young people in our
18 community, because they've been there,
19 they've done that. You know, they've got
20 their felony conviction and the child support
21 and all these different things that's
22 prevent -- that they can say: I've been
23 here, I did this. You haven't gone through
24 anything that I haven't gone through. You
496
1 haven't seen anything that I haven't seen.
2 You haven't did anything that I haven't did.
3 But if you go down that road, you're going to
4 get your butt towed out of the frame. Jails
5 institutions are death. Listen to me, young
6 man: Jails institutions are death. That's
7 where you're going if you're going down that
8 road.
9 SENATOR PERSAUD: Thank you.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
11 Mr. Ricks.
12 MR. RICKS: And it's hard to teach
13 what you don't know, and you can't lead where
14 you don't go.
15 SENATOR PERSAUD: Thank you.
16 MR. RICKS: They've been there, they
17 did it.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you,
19 Mr. Ricks. I have to move it to the
20 Assembly.
21 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Ra.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
23 Mr. Ricks, I don't have any questions
24 for you, but I do want to express my
497
1 condolences and thank you for being here and
2 showing the strength to come and speak with
3 the legislators.
4 I do have a question for the
5 Innocence Project. Admittedly, I may have
6 some homework to do here, but, you know,
7 whenever we're dealing with any policy issue,
8 right, there's 50 states and they all have
9 different laws and some are similar, some are
10 not. And, you know, the comparisons between
11 them are interesting when we're trying to
12 look at what our policies are.
13 So I guess my simple question would
14 be, how does our current law compare with
15 Texas and -- I assume the answer is yes -- if
16 you had to choose between Texas's discovery
17 and speedy trial laws versus New York's as it
18 would look with this reform passed, which
19 would you choose?
20 MS. WALLWIN: I don't want to speak
21 for the sponsors of the original discovery
22 reform bill, but I do know that the
23 Michael Morton Act, which had passed in
24 I believe 2013, was certainly a driver of the
498
1 thinking at the time and had a lot to do with
2 the shaping of New York's discovery law.
3 So I would say off the top of my head
4 that they're quite similar. But I can
5 certainly get you more information about how
6 they exactly pair up. Texas is a good model.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Okay. Thank you.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Zellnor Myrie.
9 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
10 And Mr. Ricks, again, thank you for
11 your courage and bravery. You should not
12 have to be here, but we are grateful that you
13 are, so thank you.
14 I want to talk about discovery for the
15 brief time that I have. You know, part of
16 the difficulty in being a legislator is we
17 are not in the courts with you every day.
18 Most of us do not practice, whether in a DA's
19 office or in the defense bar in the criminal
20 context. And so we have to make policy
21 decisions based on what we hear from all of
22 the stakeholders, and based on the data
23 that's available.
24 And many of us sitting up here
499
1 supported discovery reform, believe in what
2 it was meant to do and still do. And we
3 also -- I'll speak for myself -- think that
4 there are things we can do to improve it. As
5 you mentioned, we have a bill to that effect.
6 So I'm hoping that we can try, as best
7 as we can, to operate from the same set of
8 facts, and I have two questions on that. I
9 don't know if we're going to have enough time
10 to get to both.
11 But the differences in dismissals, we
12 have, I think as you mentioned, from
13 Judge Zayas earlier this morning, the felony
14 indictments have been largely undisturbed in
15 the percentage difference. But under the
16 misdemeanors and our -- the, you know,
17 misdemeanor cases, that number has grown.
18 And I think some of that is
19 attributable to not having access, quick
20 enough access to police databases. But there
21 are other forms of evidence, other things
22 that need to be turned over.
23 And I'm wondering what you think that
24 higher percentage of dismissals can be
500
1 attributed to. Because I don't think it's
2 just the access to police databases, but
3 maybe you feel differently.
4 MS. FONTIER: So in New York City, the
5 data is clear that misdemeanor dismissals are
6 significantly higher post the discovery laws
7 going into effect. That is primarily due to
8 police not turning over the evidence.
9 I can't speak for individual
10 prosecutors, but across the board what we
11 experience as defense is a complete lack of
12 discovery. In basic misdemeanor cases, which
13 are almost entirely police cases, the
14 information is simply not produced at all. I
15 believe the prosecutors are asking for it,
16 and I believe they are not getting it timely.
17 So I do think that your bill will
18 resolve the vast majority of those issues.
19 I also note that when prosecutors in
20 any case, misdemeanor or felony, are seeking
21 information that is outside of the general
22 NYPD custody, and there is a longer wait
23 time, all they do is go to the court and say
24 that we've asked for it, it has not been
501
1 produced yet, we need a good-cause extension,
2 and that is granted.
3 So that is not the cause of
4 dismissals.
5 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
7 Walker.
8 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you.
9 As much as I'd love to continue in our
10 dialogue around discovery, I am compelled,
11 based on my own loss of my cousin behind bars
12 in Rikers Island -- my aunt never received
13 the opportunity to hear from the commissioner
14 of DOCCS when my cousin Ivory died.
15 What were you feeling, what was going
16 through your mind when you heard the
17 commissioner's testimony?
18 MR. RICKS: What I feel just across
19 the board, that you can't be that close in
20 proximity of all the atrocities that happen
21 in prison and not know that they're
22 happening. So I just felt like it was
23 bait-and-switch. It was "I'm saying what I'm
24 supposed to say to maintain my position."
502
1 You can't -- you can't be that
2 embedded into a system, a system with this
3 level of atrocities, and not know that
4 they're taking place. Impossible. Virtually
5 impossible.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: So I'll go then
7 to Legal Aid. There are, as we know, certain
8 breeding grounds for coercing, if you will,
9 guilty pleas. And of course bail, beloved
10 bail, and discovery are two vehicles that get
11 utilized by a number of prosecutors in order
12 to force people into a guilty plea.
13 Can you talk to me a little bit about
14 how and why these particular practices are
15 abused by certain prosecutors?
16 MS. FONTIER: Yes, and it also --
17 thank you for the question.
18 Also I think, Senator Myrie, I didn't
19 discuss the dismissals on unindicted
20 felonies, which have come up regularly.
21 What we experience is that the police
22 and then the prosecutors at the initial
23 arraignment are over-charging cases. So
24 cases come in as bail-eligible felonies so
503
1 that they can seek bail. But ultimately
2 those cases do not get indicted. They often
3 ultimately either get reduced to
4 misdemeanors, have some other alternate
5 disposition, or get dismissed altogether.
6 But there is a pattern, at least in
7 our experience, of over-charging people to
8 provide bail-eligible offenses at that first
9 instance so that folks can be held.
10 And the other piece of that on the
11 discovery component is the current law does
12 not allow for abuse because there is a
13 remedy. If things are not turned over, the
14 case will be dismissed. The Governor's
15 proposed repeal of that ultimately will allow
16 for discretion. It gives the power entirely
17 back to the prosecutor to decide what is
18 relevant and when to turn it over.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry --
20 (Overtalk.)
21 MS. FONTIER: Because as long as it's
22 not sitting in their actual possession, they
23 don't have to turn it over.
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
504
1 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
2 Kelles.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: If you wanted
4 to finish what you were saying.
5 MS. FONTIER: So the -- there is a few
6 big issues in the Governor's proposal. And
7 the one is that it significantly narrows the
8 amount of information that has to be turned
9 over to whatever the individual prosecutor
10 decides is relevant to the charge.
11 That has two major problems. One is
12 that the prosecutor doesn't necessarily know
13 what the theory of defense is or what would
14 be relevant to a defense; they only know what
15 is relevant in their own mind to their
16 charging of the case.
17 The second is that that almost
18 entirely cuts out the requirement to turn
19 over police misconduct records. And I do
20 just want to say that like the officers who
21 murdered your son, they had significant
22 histories of discipline and misconduct.
23 Police officers are in the street, working
24 and being promoted, with significant
505
1 histories of abuse and misconduct. And
2 unless we are able to receive that
3 information and cross-examine them, they will
4 continue to do that.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you.
6 Mr. Brooks, I -- I just wanted to say
7 thank you also for coming. To do this work
8 right after your son was murdered takes
9 tremendous, tremendous self-soul awareness
10 and commitment and love for humanity, and I
11 wanted to thank you for that.
12 It shows that you still have faith and
13 hope in us, and I hope we don't disappoint
14 that.
15 MR. RICKS: As do I.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Yeah. One of
17 the things I was thinking as you were talking
18 that hurt me when I was watching is the
19 participation of the medical practitioners as
20 well.
21 A bill I had last year that would
22 require electrification -- that we put all of
23 our medical records in prisons onto digital,
24 but it's shared, was vetoed. I am committed
506
1 to keep moving that. But I wanted to hear
2 from you from that side, from the health
3 side, what you would like to see.
4 MR. RICKS: I don't -- I really don't
5 think that you can separate it. It's all
6 just like one -- one system. It's all one
7 system.
8 There's like -- for me, there's like
9 three parts of this. There's the prevention
10 work, and that's the work that I do. And
11 then there's the -- what happens with
12 prisoners after they're released. And then
13 there's the what happens with prisoners when
14 they're in prison.
15 I know that I do everything within my
16 power to try to prevent young people from
17 going down the path that my son went down,
18 everything within my power with what I'm
19 allotted. I know that the people that are
20 invested in trying to lay a foundation and
21 assist prisoners in reentry do everything
22 within their power to try to assure the fact
23 that they don't return.
24 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you,
507
1 Mr. Ricks.
2 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you.
3 MR. RICKS: You all have that third
4 power. That third power belongs to you all.
5 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Mr. Bores.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Ms. Wallwin, good
8 to see you. I hope I'm doing the 73rd
9 District proud.
10 Mr. Ricks, I'm so sorry for your
11 tragedy. And thank you for being here and
12 for advocating for others. It's deeply
13 appreciated.
14 My questions are for Legal Aid.
15 First of all, you mentioned in your
16 testimony we desperately need to shorten
17 delays, and there's many, many, many things
18 we have to do for that. But I want to thank
19 you and Legal Aid for your support on lifting
20 the cap on Supreme Court justices. It's one
21 of the many ways to reduce delays.
22 My question to you, your testimony is
23 I think the only one I've seen that argues
24 against the criminalization of AI-generated
508
1 CSAM, and I just wanted to kind of understand
2 the bounds of that position. It sounds, from
3 reading your testimony, like you would still
4 think that distributing an image of a real
5 person that has been manipulated is something
6 that should be penalized. Is that correct?
7 MS. FONTIER: I will say that this is
8 not my exact expertise and issue. It is a
9 Legal Aid position. But I believe that is
10 correct.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Okay. That seemed
12 to be what I was picking up.
13 MS. FONTIER: Yes.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: And if you want to
15 follow up with this, I'd be interested as
16 well. But should companies be allowed to
17 sell software that is trained to do this or
18 that is -- or they're promoting or --
19 MS. FONTIER: The position is
20 ultimately that if something is not real, it
21 shouldn't be criminalized. I mean, that's
22 the simplest way to put it.
23 So when you say "this," I'm not
24 entirely sure what you are --
509
1 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: I guess my concern
2 is I don't want there to be a market where AI
3 companies are incentivized to be good at
4 producing AI-generated CSAM because of what
5 it takes to train a model to be good at that.
6 And so I understand the position of it
7 that it's totally fake and if it's not
8 distributed it's one thing. I'm just trying
9 to figure out sort of from your perspective
10 the bounds of that position. And if that's
11 something you want to follow up with, that's
12 great.
13 MS. FONTIER: We can follow up on it.
14 But in general, you know, we are
15 concerned about the criminalization of
16 individuals and the overcriminalization of
17 individuals. And so if somebody is, you
18 know, viewing, sharing things that are not
19 actually real and therefore there is no true
20 victim, we do not believe that that should be
21 criminalized.
22 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: I'm not sure I
23 agree, but I would love to hear more about
24 that. Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
510
1 MS. FONTIER: I'm not here taking a
2 position at the moment on any
3 incentivization.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
6 Romero.
7 (No response.)
8 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Lavine.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROMERO: I'm here. Just
10 getting a microphone, sorry.
11 (Off the record.)
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROMERO: Thank you.
13 I first just want to start with giving
14 your time back, Mr. Ricks, if you -- you kind
15 of looked like you were in the middle of your
16 thought last time you were speaking, and I
17 wanted to just give you the time back to
18 continue that thought. You were speaking
19 about -- you were speaking about children and
20 the distinction between the work of people in
21 prison versus before they get to prison and
22 after prison, and I wanted to give you the
23 time back to finish that thought.
24 MR. RICKS: Thank you.
511
1 What I was saying is that there's
2 three parts. It's like my son -- my son
3 didn't -- he didn't begin at Marcy, you know.
4 So there was things that transpired, there's
5 things that happened prior to him ending up
6 in prison.
7 And so those are the things that I
8 work against in my work.
9 And then the reentry programs are the
10 other part of it. And basically those are
11 the only things that we have any really
12 control over. You know, the work that we put
13 in after our young men and women get out of
14 prison, and the work that we put in to
15 prevent them from going to prison.
16 The other part is your part, you know.
17 We do everything within our power with what's
18 allotted to us to make sure that our work is
19 done, done thoroughly, and we are making a
20 difference. It's not like -- it's not like
21 you sitting here don't know that the system
22 is broke. Y'all know it's broke. Y'all know
23 that people are getting beat to death in
24 jail. Y'all know that.
512
1 So it's like what you going to do? I
2 do my job every day, from 2 o'clock in the
3 evening to midnight. Every day I work with
4 kids from the age of 5 to 17, trying to make
5 a difference, trying to keep them out of
6 prison. I do my job. And so my expectation
7 is that you all do your job.
8 You know. You know. You know it's
9 not right. You know it's not right. I know
10 it's not right now. I didn't know it before,
11 before my son came home in a body bag and I
12 had to bury him and I couldn't have an
13 open coffin because of how they had beat him.
14 I knew then. But prior to that, nobody could
15 have told me.
16 But y'all know. Y'all know this is
17 happening. So do the next right thing. I
18 would say "do your job," but that's a little
19 harsh. Do the next right thing. Fix it.
20 Thank you.
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN ROMERO: I can't and I
22 won't speak for my colleagues, but I can
23 speak for myself. And I will say that I have
24 every intention to do everything in my power
513
1 to try and fix it, whether it's signing on to
2 a bill or speaking out against the insane and
3 horrendous murder that was done to your son.
4 And thank you for being here and for
5 speaking out.
6 MR. RICKS: Thank you. Thank you.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: To Mr. Ricks,
8 doing our job is not too harsh, not too harsh
9 a set of words.
10 I know I speak for everyone here in
11 saying you have -- you and your family have
12 our deepest condolences.
13 And let us work together to make a
14 more beloved communities where everyone is
15 safe. And thanks, thank you for that.
16 Ms. Fontier, am I pronouncing your
17 name correctly?
18 MS. FONTIER: It's fahn-tee-yay, but
19 it's close enough, sir.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: No, no, but
21 actually what is it?
22 MS. FONTIER: It's Fontier.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Okay. I
24 apologize. All right. As someone whose name
514
1 is constantly mispronounced.
2 But I did want to share this with you.
3 I am a former Legal Aid attorney in the City
4 of New York. And I know that when we change
5 laws, it causes confusion. It caused
6 confusion when we modernized bail, which is
7 part of a national movement, and there was
8 confusion as well with respect to the
9 discovery statute.
10 So I'm going to share something with
11 you, as an old Legal Aid attorney. The law
12 now is discovery is supposed to be whatever
13 is related to the case. So a proposal is
14 being made to change the word "related" to
15 "relevant to." So as someone who has studied
16 the law, I just want to say I'm not sure I
17 understand the difference. And I have a fear
18 that the judges will be confused as well,
19 along with everybody else in the courthouse.
20 So what do you think, are my fears
21 founded or unfounded.
22 MS. FONTIER: I think your fears are
23 founded. And -- but they are very different,
24 sir.
515
1 And it -- I didn't have time to get to
2 what I actually intended to testify to, which
3 is that we have had an enormous shift in our
4 practice. We've had to invest -- thank you,
5 and we're asking for the reappropriation of
6 the funds to discovery and aid to defense,
7 because we've had to invest in technology and
8 we've also had to invest in staffing and
9 training.
10 The training unit has revamped their
11 entire training for not just law grads but
12 for every attorney at Legal Aid, and trains
13 extensively on the meaning of every word in
14 the discovery statute. We hired litigation
15 assistants and trained them extensively on
16 discovery, what it is, how to recognize it,
17 what you're supposed to have, how to organize
18 it, how to work with the technology.
19 But that change in the statute is
20 actually enormous, because it's not one word,
21 it's an entire phrase. It's not just related
22 to the case or relevant to the charges. And
23 that takes away what is related to every
24 person that's in the case. One of the
516
1 biggest issues is going to be police
2 misconduct work records. They are not
3 necessarily relevant to the specific charge
4 that is before the court, but they're very
5 related to the case.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: Thank you.
7 MS. FONTIER: Yes.
8 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
9 Morinello.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Mr. Ricks, it
11 was something you said that caused me to dig
12 down to an experience I had in Cleveland,
13 Ohio. I have a very -- my law school
14 roommate is part of the Innocence Project in
15 Cleveland, but he has a good friend that has
16 what is called Edwin's Leadership and
17 Restaurant Institute.
18 And I ask -- I want to put this on the
19 record, because what you said is when they
20 are formerly incarcerated. We have been
21 coming up and attempting to come up with
22 things so that when they are let out, what
23 will they do? We talked about teaching them
24 while they're incarcerated. Edwin's was
517
1 started by a former incarcerated individual.
2 And he started this institute. He has
3 dormitories, you have to be a former
4 incarcerated to be there, and he teaches you
5 food service.
6 There are two restaurants in
7 Cleveland. One of them's a five-star French
8 restaurant that's part of this project. And
9 part of the dormitory concept is giving them
10 a place to come to if they want to be able to
11 get into this type of profession, whether
12 you're the server, whether you're the
13 bartender. He started a meat processing
14 facility for former incarcerated.
15 And the point I'm trying to make here
16 is this. When you said that, it triggered it
17 again. Because I've been there and I've
18 eaten there and I've met Edwin. And I think
19 it's something that -- it's a little
20 different than what we've been doing. We're
21 trying to figure out ways when they come out
22 and throw money at different agencies. But I
23 believe that if we had something of this
24 concept where they had a place to go in, if
518
1 they wanted to go into this. And the concept
2 is while they're living in the dormitory,
3 they're learning, they start working, then
4 they can move into actual housing. But they
5 have a purpose.
6 And I spoke to all of the workers
7 there when I went to my friend's birthday
8 party. They were just overjoyed with the
9 opportunity. And they don't ever have the
10 thought of being left out and nowhere to go
11 because Edwin's gives them that family
12 atmosphere.
13 And so I would just ask that maybe you
14 look into that concept. And it's just -- you
15 Google Edwin's, and it's amazing what you
16 will find. That's it.
17 And there's no words I can say to help
18 ease your pain, except I'm very sorry.
19 MR. RICKS: Just that. Just that.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So I don't
21 actually have any questions. I want to thank
22 you all -- one, both ladies for your work on
23 behalf of so many people in this state, day
24 in, day out, and your organizations' work.
519
1 And Mr. Ricks, I just can't say I
2 think how much all of us appreciate your
3 willingness to come forward. You visited
4 both of our legislative houses yesterday.
5 You sat here most of the day listening to
6 other people talk. And then you came forward
7 to tell your story and your perspective on
8 it, and I just want to emphasize how really
9 important it is that you were willing to do
10 this.
11 It's not just on behalf of yourself
12 and your family, you're doing this on behalf
13 of people who you will never meet, I will
14 never meet, but hopefully we will in tandem
15 be able to make the fixes in our system that
16 will matter to so many other families in the
17 future.
18 So with that, I want to excuse you
19 all. I want to thank Panel D for letting us
20 trade. I hope people won't surround you too
21 much as you get up to leave, because we do
22 want to continue with the hearing and invite
23 Panel D -- the Vera Institute of Justice, the
24 New York Immigration Coalition, and Make the
520
1 Road New York -- to all come down and take
2 their seats.
3 (Pause.)
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So now I can
5 officially say good evening to everyone. And
6 this is Panel D, but next will be Panel F,
7 just for keeping track.
8 And if you'd each just introduce
9 yourself first so that the people with the
10 cameras know who's who, please.
11 MS. WANG: Rosie Wang, program manager
12 with the Vera Institute of Justice.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 MS. WAGNAC: Bonswa tout moun. Tania
15 Wagnac, senior manager of state and local
16 policy at New York Immigration Coalition.
17 MS. CORTES: Good afternoon. Luba
18 Cortes, civil rights and immigration lead
19 organizer at Make the Road New York.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm sorry, when
21 they see you upstairs, they can turn the mics
22 up a little bit. And we're going to ask
23 everyone to pull them closer to you.
24 Thank you. Okay. So let's start
521
1 here, please.
2 MS. WANG: Good evening. Thank you
3 for the opportunity to testify today. My
4 name is Rosie Wang, and I'm the program
5 manager at the Vera Institute of Justice.
6 Today I'll be testifying on the critical need
7 to invest in immigration legal services and
8 also evidence-based public safety solutions.
9 For immigration legal services, we
10 urge the Senate and Assembly to invest
11 $165 million in protecting the rights of
12 immigrant New Yorkers. In her Executive
13 Budget Governor Hochul invested $44.2 million
14 for the Office of New Americans, but this is
15 not enough. At a time when federal attacks
16 are threatening immigrant New Yorkers,
17 New York must step up and lead by investing
18 more robustly in immigration legal services.
19 Of the 165 million, we propose
20 100 million for the Office of New Americans
21 to expand deportation defense programs, to
22 fund capacity building for legal services
23 providers, and to increase current contracts
24 by 20 percent for staff recruitment and
522
1 retention.
2 We propose a $65 million investment
3 for the Department of Education, to build a
4 pipeline of new immigration legal experts,
5 ensuring that New York has a long-term,
6 sustainable legal defense workforce at a time
7 of heightened need.
8 We also need lasting protections. We
9 strongly urge the passage of the Access to
10 Representation Act, or ARA, and the BUILD
11 Act. The ARA, sponsored by Assemblymember
12 Cruz and Senator Hoylman-Sigal, would
13 establish a right to representation for
14 people in New York immigration courts. The
15 BUILD Act, sponsored by Assemblymember Cruz
16 and Senator Liu, would fund essential
17 infrastructure to create, maintain and expand
18 legal services programs.
19 Paired with the $165 million
20 investment in immigrant legal services, these
21 policies ensure that families remain
22 together, communities stay whole, and
23 New York's economy remains strong.
24 Separately, regarding the Governor's
523
1 public safety proposals, we recognize and
2 commend the small but meaningful investments
3 in community-based mental health and public
4 safety initiatives. However, we are deeply
5 concerned that New York continues to overfund
6 punitive reactionary approaches that fail to
7 enhance public safety.
8 Instead, New York should prioritize
9 evidence-based solutions that improve public
10 safety by addressing the root causes of crime
11 and mental health crises. I urge you to
12 review the written testimony submitted by my
13 Vera colleagues detailing concerns with
14 discovery and with involuntary
15 hospitalization, and urge the passage of
16 three bills: Assemblymember Kelles' and
17 Senator Salazar's pretrial services bill, the
18 Earned Time Act, and the Second Look Act.
19 Thank you.
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
21 Next?
22 MS. WAGNAC: Bonswa tout moun. My
23 name is Tania Wagnac. I am the senior
24 manager of state and local policy at the
524
1 New York Immigration Coalition. NYIC is an
2 umbrella policy and advocacy organization for
3 more than 200 groups serving immigrants and
4 refugees across New York State.
5 We are also one of the organizational
6 leads for the Campaign for Access,
7 Representation and Equity for Immigrant
8 Families, known as CARE-IF, a coalition of
9 community-based organizations that have been
10 consistently advocating for the vital need
11 for funding for legal services for immigrant
12 individuals.
13 First, thank you, Chair Pretlow and
14 Chair Krueger, for convening this important
15 hearing.
16 For years advocates like myself, like
17 my colleagues here, have tirelessly called
18 for robust, sustained funding to ensure
19 New York has the necessary mechanisms and
20 infrastructure to protect all residents,
21 regardless of immigration status.
22 The need for legal service funding is
23 not new. We have long warned that without
24 sufficient investment, immigrant New Yorkers,
525
1 both undocumented and legal residents, will
2 be left vulnerable to arrests, detention and
3 deportation. And today, this reality is upon
4 us, exacerbated by the recent rescission of
5 the "sensitive locations" policies that
6 previously provided some protection from
7 immigration enforcement actions.
8 And the rollback of these policies
9 have fueled increased enforcement action, led
10 to misinformation from the city through the
11 circulation of guidance memos, and has been
12 sowing fear within our communities. And so
13 the Legislature must act decisively to
14 counteract these harmful developments by
15 ensuring universal access to competent legal
16 representation.
17 The fact being, investing in
18 compassionate immigration policies is not
19 just a moral imperative, but also a strategic
20 move for collective safety and economic
21 prosperity.
22 And as my colleague uplifted here, we
23 are here calling for an investment of
24 $165 million not only to fund legal services
526
1 through the Office of New Americans, but to
2 provide much-needed funding for competency
3 building for our legal service providers so
4 that they may have the resources they need to
5 continue this work -- and also providing
6 much-needed support to attorneys who are
7 working in pro bono immigration cases.
8 We also urge the Legislature to pass
9 the Access to Representation Act -- again, to
10 pass the Access to Representation Act,
11 Assembly Bill 270 and Senate Bill 141, as
12 well as the Bolstering Unrepresented
13 Immigrant Legal Defense -- or known as
14 BUILD -- Act.
15 The ARA would create a statutory right
16 to counsel for immigrants who are facing
17 deportation in New York, and would create a
18 stable and sustainable funding stream for
19 providers to meet the urgent need. It would
20 guarantee that no one is left behind to
21 defend themselves against a trained
22 government lawyer alone because they cannot
23 afford representation.
24 Thank you.
527
1 MS. CORTES: Hello again. My name is
2 Luba Cortes. I oversee Make the Road's
3 immigration portfolio. I'm here today to
4 speak in support of the New York for All Act.
5 Immigrant New Yorkers need real
6 protections. And currently, under this
7 administration, the hyper-enforcement is
8 causing serious fear in our communities.
9 We're seeing that immigrants are afraid to go
10 to work, families are afraid to take their
11 little ones to school, farmworkers don't want
12 to go to work because they're afraid that ICE
13 will be waiting there for them.
14 It is time for the Legislature to step
15 up and protect New Yorkers, to ensure that
16 the mass deportation agenda of this
17 administration is not successful. We all
18 deserve to live in safety, but safety means
19 being able to go to work, school, church and
20 the hospital without being ripped away from
21 your family.
22 It's also important to note that
23 New York is a cultural hub, and our economy
24 is shaped by immigrants, with $68 billion in
528
1 tax revenue and $153 billion in spending
2 power. And it's harrowing and unnerving to
3 think that state resources are going to be
4 used to aid and abet ICE to then fulfill and
5 uplift a deportation agenda. And so
6 New Yorkers need real protections.
7 We understand that due process is
8 necessary, but we're seeing that the arrests
9 that are happening by ICE also include people
10 that have no criminal records. And so this
11 is called collateral arrests by ICE. And
12 therefore it is extremely concerning, because
13 people have the right to receive due process,
14 but individuals that perhaps are just taking
15 their kids to school are now being picked up
16 by ICE.
17 We also continue to hear reports
18 across the state of ICE activity outside of
19 schools, ICE activity outside of health
20 clinics, with no real clarification. We're
21 seeing the DEA and FBI also aiding and
22 abetting ICE. And that creates a lot of
23 confusion with New Yorkers.
24 We can't let this administration
529
1 scapegoat immigrants. As we know, immigrants
2 make up 30 percent of the workforce. And
3 60 percent of immigrants also do caretaking
4 jobs, which includes home health aides,
5 taking care of elders. And so when they're
6 afraid to go to work, what happens to our
7 most vulnerable communities?
8 We need the Legislature to stand with
9 immigrants. We keep hearing communities say:
10 Could I be next?
11 As Make the Road, just in the last
12 weeks we have trained over 600 partners and
13 allies and hundreds of community members have
14 come to our offices. We have gone to schools
15 to try to teach them how to affirm their
16 rights, but they're still -- they are still
17 afraid. They're afraid to leave the
18 status quo, and they need to trust government
19 agencies when they're seeking emergency
20 medical services, when they want to, again,
21 go to school, go to work. If they're not
22 able to do that, they're not able to thrive,
23 and that is deeply concerning.
24 And we also want to name, right, that
530
1 people without a status don't have a status
2 because they want to, they want to adjust
3 their status. Right? They just don't have
4 the opportunity due to the backlogs on work
5 permits.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 Questions? Senator Myrie.
8 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you, and thank
9 you for your patience, for waiting all day.
10 As you were waiting, the New York City
11 mayor announced that he is going to welcome
12 ICE back onto Rikers Island. So I'm just
13 wondering if you can speak to any
14 implications for public safety or due process
15 in that change of policy.
16 For anybody.
17 MS. WAGNAC: So yes, we were actually
18 tracking that news while we were sitting
19 there. This is extremely concerning, because
20 not only would this -- because at the moment
21 there's like developments still happening, so
22 there's still more clarification needed, of
23 course.
24 But like the concern for us is now you
531
1 have an ICE office located in a DOC, right,
2 facility, who have been known, has been
3 proven to have been violating the existing
4 detainer law. Because there was a hearing
5 that revealed all the violations where
6 DOC agents were in communication, like
7 texting with ICE agents, like sharing the
8 location and specific release date for
9 inmates.
10 And so there's this concern that this
11 will not just pertain to individuals who have
12 committed serious crimes, but also could
13 bring in any inmate, right, who does not have
14 an immigration status or is undocumented,
15 could be lumped into it.
16 But this is clearly a move by the
17 administration, by the Adams administration
18 to align with Trump in essentially a sellout
19 of immigrant New Yorkers, essentially.
20 MS. CORTES: Yes, I mean this
21 executive order is a response of his meetings
22 with the Border Czar. And so we know that
23 the city, despite its own detainer laws --
24 which we were hoping to complement with
532
1 New York for All -- you know, they could be
2 potentially rescinded. We don't know what is
3 going to happen, so we need the state to step
4 in and protect New Yorkers if our mayor is
5 going to use immigrants as bargaining chips
6 for political pardons.
7 MS. WANG: And part of that
8 protection, of course, is, you know, not just
9 cutting off the pipeline from the criminal
10 system to the immigration system, which
11 compounds the harm of racial bias in the
12 criminal legal system, but also making sure
13 that there is due process as well in the
14 immigration system, that there's not double
15 punishment, that people have representation
16 in immigration court like they would if they
17 were accused of a crime.
18 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Ra.
21 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: I don't really have a
22 question, I did want to just, A, thank you
23 for your patience and your accommodation with
24 the earlier panel.
533
1 And I wanted to say to Ms. Wagnac,
2 it's a proud day for me to have you before us
3 testifying in front of a budget hearing.
4 So --
5 MS. WAGNAC: It's good to see you
6 again, so good to see you again, and so good
7 to see many of you.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: It's a first for me.
9 She was my intern 10 -- well, 12 years ago,
10 and she's -- 12 years ago, so --
11 (Laughter.)
12 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Good to have you in
13 front of us. And again, that's a first for
14 me. So proud to see you here.
15 MS. WAGNAC: Thank you, Assemblyman.
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: You did a pretty
17 good job with him.
18 MS. WAGNAC: Yeah, I made sure he
19 showed up to his committee meetings, right
20 behind him -- no, but thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I don't think we
22 have any other Senators.
23 Assembly?
24 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman Cruz.
534
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CRUZ: All right, this
2 thing's been giving me trouble all day.
3 Thank you. Thank you, ladies, great
4 to see you.
5 I have a feeling that what --
6 Senator Myrie asked you about the litigation,
7 and it is my hope that the conversation will
8 be very different, but we'll leave that up to
9 the courts, where I think it will be upheld,
10 because it's the law and it's constitutional.
11 I wanted to ask about what you're
12 seeing in the community and in the district.
13 We know that there is a high need for
14 services. I'd love to hear a little bit
15 about the services that are actually being
16 provided at the local level now, and where
17 you're seeing an increase and if you have an
18 estimate or percentage of the increase that
19 you're seeing, especially over the last
20 month.
21 And what services are you not able to
22 provide because of lack of funding?
23 Thank you.
24 MS. WAGNAC: I can -- I'll start off,
535
1 and then my colleagues.
2 So thank you so much, Assemblywoman.
3 ASSEMBLYWOMAN CRUZ: Can you pull the
4 mic --
5 MS. WAGNAC: Of course, of course.
6 And so with the recent changes, right,
7 we've seen an increased need for more
8 Know Your Rights workshops, right?
9 Immediately the moment these rescissions were
10 taking place, legal service providers were
11 getting phone calls from not just immigrant
12 adults, but children, wondering what is the
13 meaning of guardianship, right: How do I
14 gain guardianship of my sibling? Or how do I
15 get power of attorney? Or what's going to
16 happen if my family, you know, they get
17 detained, like what happens to them?
18 So there's been an increased need for
19 doing more training on how to engage with
20 ICE, but also what to do. You know, like
21 what information to have, what documents to
22 have prepared, and what the resources, right,
23 is needed.
24 So we also have been meeting with the
536
1 city administration to make sure that there's
2 guidance, clearer guidelines that is put out,
3 and that there's a point of contact for
4 families, you know, in the event that an
5 individual is detained.
6 And we've also been calling for the
7 need for a rapid response fund, right, to
8 make sure that families, right, where there
9 is -- the breadwinner is no longer there, is
10 able to have financial assistance support.
11 Right? To be able to continue to pay for
12 rent, to buy food.
13 But there's a lot more that we've been
14 calling for, so I'll make space for my
15 colleagues at that point.
16 MS. WANG: I'll let my colleagues who
17 are member-based organizations speak in more
18 detail about this, but I just also wanted to
19 make the point that ICE has made it difficult
20 to track what the need is and how many people
21 are being detained and how many people are
22 being arrested.
23 Because there has always been an issue
24 with data transparency in ICE, but that is
537
1 worse than ever. There used to be a system
2 run by Syracuse Law School that tracked
3 Executive Office of Immigration Review,
4 immigration court data, through which you
5 could see how many new removal cases were
6 being opened -- oh, sorry.
7 (Time clock sounds.)
8 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
9 Kelles.
10 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you.
11 Can you please finish that answer? I
12 want to give you time.
13 MS. WANG: Oh, thank you,
14 Assemblymember Kelles.
15 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Absolutely.
16 MS. WANG: And that system has gone
17 dark.
18 There's very -- I think it's difficult
19 to really have the full picture of what is
20 going on. Vera has a dashboard created by
21 our researchers to track representation
22 rates, but I think this really does also
23 emphasize the need for lawyers who are able
24 to help people and be eyes within the system
538
1 to give us an idea of what is going on in
2 place of this, you know, opaqueness where
3 people are just disappearing.
4 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: And there's a
5 lot of documentation and information out
6 there now that there's a lot of discrepancies
7 in the funding between upstate and downstate,
8 and upstate having a particular lack of
9 funding.
10 Can you talk about how that's
11 impacting upstate? For any of you, please.
12 MS. WANG: I would love to talk about
13 our solutions for that.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: I would love to
15 hear them.
16 MS. WANG: But some of our (indicating
17 other panelists) --
18 MS. WAGNAC: I'm not sure of the --
19 sorry, can you hear me?
20 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Yeah.
21 MS. WAGNAC: So are you saying like
22 the implication of not being funding
23 allocated to upstate?
24 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Just the lack
539
1 of funding and infrastructure and support on
2 ICE activity upstate, how it's impacting
3 communities.
4 MS. WAGNAC: Yes, so to answer that,
5 we've also had -- some of our providers who
6 are located upstate, they've had like desks
7 that have not been replaced, they've been
8 seeing an increased call for more clinics,
9 like legal clinics, folks asking questions.
10 And so we're seeing like the need for
11 like a capacity building to make sure that
12 they have spaces, offices. And so this is
13 why we've been pushing for the funding for
14 the 165 million to include a lot of those
15 providers. Because it's not only for
16 New York City, it would also be for the
17 upstate areas as well.
18 MS. WANG: And that's also why we're
19 pushing for the BUILD Act, which funds
20 immigration legal infrastructure and
21 capacity-building specifically to expand
22 immigration legal representation, to scale up
23 both to the increased need and to reach
24 places that are currently legal deserts.
540
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: And one last
2 question. Are you hearing and can you tell
3 us a little bit about what you're hearing
4 about how this activity is affecting farmers
5 and the farming community?
6 MS. CORTES: Yes, so we're hearing,
7 right, that folks are really troubled by the
8 raids, particularly because it's unclear
9 whether it's ICE, whether it's the FBI,
10 whether the DEA that is participating in
11 those raids.
12 And so we know when farmworkers are
13 not going to the farms, right, that means
14 they're not working. That also affects their
15 produce, and it affects the labor and it
16 affects the economy. And so that is what we
17 have been hearing.
18 And then also we note that their loved
19 ones also feel unsafe on top of just their
20 family members going to work, so families
21 want to relocate, and that will have an
22 impact, right, if they're leaving the towns
23 where they're providing a lot of that
24 workforce.
541
1 And so we're part of the New York for
2 All Coalition, and they do a lot of work
3 upstate, and they're trying to provide a lot
4 of Know Your Rights education to ensure they
5 know their rights and are able to go to work.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN KELLES: Thank you.
7 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
8 Mitaynes.
9 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: Hi.
10 Can you talk a little bit about --
11 just based on the experience, what happens or
12 what are the rippling effects into the
13 community when someone is detained and
14 someone's taken, to the immediate family and
15 then just like the extension of what that
16 actually causes?
17 MS. CORTES: So we do a lot of rapid
18 response work. So what usually happens with
19 community members is that they try to locate
20 their loved ones, and so there's a lot of
21 education on how to actually find their loved
22 ones.
23 Oftentimes the information is not
24 updated, and so they come and they're afraid
542
1 because they think their loved one has been
2 kidnapped, because oftentimes they don't even
3 know that it was ICE.
4 And so if that impacts the
5 breadwinner, if that was the person that was
6 detained, then they don't have access to
7 economic support. That could mean they could
8 become unhoused. And so it's really
9 connecting them with emergency services so
10 they can continue to live their lives if the
11 breadwinner is detained.
12 Oftentimes if there's medical issues,
13 figuring out how to get them access to
14 services because the loved one is detained.
15 And we see people that have been detained and
16 also they have severe medical issues, and so
17 the loved ones are trying to figure out how
18 to get them access to the medicine that they
19 need.
20 We've seen the people in detention,
21 often their medical conditions are
22 exacerbated because they don't get quality
23 access to medical care or the medicine that
24 is needed.
543
1 And so that has deep impacts on the
2 community, because once a person is taken,
3 community members see that, they don't want
4 to go to school, they don't want to go to
5 work.
6 Jackson Heights, which is a very
7 vibrant community in Queens, there was
8 ICE activity by the 7 Train on Junction
9 Boulevard, and then Junction Boulevard was
10 empty. Right?
11 And so it shows that people don't want
12 to be on the streets, they feel unprotected.
13 And so we need clear protections to ensure
14 that people can seek the support that they
15 need.
16 MS. WAGNAC: And in addition to that,
17 too, there's a lack of information that's
18 given to the family, right? Because often
19 people will be like in a detention center for
20 weeks, and then the family does not know that
21 they've been there.
22 And also if the person is not an
23 English -- if English is not their first
24 language, they're less likely to receive any
544
1 updates about their case, why they're even
2 there, or even information about their own
3 rights. So it's more like purposely placing
4 them in a hole and keeping them in the dark.
5 MS. CORTES: And it's also the
6 prolonged detention. People can be in
7 detention for years while they're trying to
8 figure out court. Which is why it's so
9 important to have access to quality
10 representation.
11 We're also seeing a lot of fraud in
12 communities because people want to seek an
13 immigration attorney to support their loved
14 ones to get them out, but they end up being
15 embezzled thousands of dollars and their
16 loved ones are not released and they don't
17 get any clear information. So it's just an
18 aspect that harms the entire family.
19 ASSEMBLYWOMAN MITAYNES: And I don't
20 know if you have data of this, but just like,
21 again, based on, you know, being frontline,
22 what would you say or how would you codify
23 folks that out of fear have just kind of like
24 left on their own?
545
1 (Time clock sounds.)
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly, no
3 more?
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: That's it.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Then we all want
6 to thank you very much for coming and
7 participating tonight. And we know that the
8 day got longer and it's going to keep still
9 getting longer, so safe travels. Thank you
10 very much.
11 PANELISTS: Thank you. Thank you so
12 much. And congrats, Chair Pretlow.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: I'm now going to
14 call up Panel F: The New York State
15 Defenders Association, the Chief Defender
16 Association of New York, the District
17 Attorneys Association of the State of New
18 York, and the New York Association of
19 Criminal Defense Lawyers.
20 (Pause; off the record.)
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And as they sit
22 down, this is not actually an audible, this
23 was that Michael McMahon, Richmond County
24 district attorney, who was going to be
546
1 testifying for the DAs Association, could not
2 be here with us, and so we have replaced him,
3 so to speak, with Bronx DA Darcel Clark and
4 also Rensselaer County DA Donnelly, who is
5 the incoming president of the District
6 Attorneys Association.
7 So they will each get three minutes,
8 okay, six minutes for them.
9 And would you then, everyone introduce
10 yourself first so that the people in the
11 video booth know which name to put with what
12 picture. Please, would you start just by
13 introducing yourself.
14 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: My name is
15 Darcel Clark. I'm the elected district
16 attorney of Bronx County.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 RENSSELAER COUNTY DA DONNELLY: Mary
19 Pat Donnelly, Rensselaer County district
20 attorney.
21 MR. STADELMAIER: I'm Kevin
22 Stadelmaier. I'm the president-elect of the
23 New York State Association of Criminal
24 Defense Lawyers and the first deputy defender
547
1 of the Erie County Assigned Counsel Program.
2 MR. McGHAN: I'm James McGhan. I'm
3 the president of the Chief Defender
4 Association of New York.
5 MS. BRYANT: Susan Bryant,
6 executive director of the New York State
7 Defenders Association.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. Well,
9 welcome, everyone. And why don't we start
10 with the two district attorneys. Whichever
11 order you want to do it.
12 RENSSELAER COUNTY DA DONNELLY: Okay.
13 Mary Pat Donnelly, Rensselaer County
14 District Attorney. Thank you for taking the
15 time to listen to our perspective as it
16 pertains to the Governor's budget, and
17 specifically the very important issue of
18 discovery.
19 Five years ago when the changes came
20 down, you let us sit here and explain about
21 our concerns about how we're going to be able
22 to do our job. And to a certain extent, some
23 of our fears have come true. However, we are
24 extremely grateful for the funding that has
548
1 come down, as we've tried to build
2 infrastructure within our varying offices
3 around the state to try to help us get to the
4 endgame.
5 And I want to start out by saying not
6 a single elected DA that I have had the
7 opportunity to speak with is opposed to the
8 goal, which is a fair sharing of information
9 so that defense attorneys and defendants can
10 make intelligent and fair decisions about how
11 to proceed.
12 The problem becomes the difference in
13 each and every county and the relations that
14 we have with varied law enforcement -- and
15 I'm speaking for upstate -- and trying to get
16 that message across. It becomes a very
17 difficult process when we have such different
18 resources in each and every spot.
19 To keep it simple, I can't -- I can't
20 know what I don't know, and I can't ask for
21 something that I don't know exists. So no
22 matter how many times I speak to varied
23 police officers who are dealing with a case,
24 varied agencies who may be involved in a
549
1 particular case, there's always somebody
2 along the chain who, in the privacy of their
3 own mind, says, well, I don't think she means
4 everything. Not this.
5 And sometimes -- and this is what I'm
6 talking about -- sometimes that thing that
7 they failed to turn over is not important.
8 I'm talking about the time when somebody does
9 something wrong. Because if somebody does
10 something wrong, these sanctions are
11 appropriate.
12 I'm talking about a time when -- we
13 had an example from an upstate DA, a burglary
14 was called in to a home where the burglary
15 suspect went to the wrong house. Police
16 responded to the first house, the people
17 said, "We don't know what happened, he ran
18 outside," and while they were there, they
19 found him breaking into the house next door,
20 where he meant to go in the first place.
21 So that proceeded as a violent felony
22 trial, and when they got to the end and it
23 was the eve of trial, they found out that
24 there had been a police report filled out for
550
1 the first house, which was completely
2 encompassed in the second police report for
3 the second house, and that case was
4 dismissed.
5 So these are the types of situations
6 that are concerning. When you deal with
7 upstate, you have a lot of town and village
8 courts where our judges are not attorneys,
9 and there becomes an opportunity that we
10 can't really litigate a lot of these issues.
11 Because that's what we do in county
12 court. When there's a question as to whether
13 something is relevant -- or I should say
14 related to the case, we're able to litigate
15 that in county court upstate. But when we're
16 out in our local courts, where the
17 misdemeanors matter, where there are cases
18 that have real victims, we're not given the
19 opportunity to do that.
20 Our judges are not understanding what
21 they need to do, and the remedy is -- you
22 didn't turn something over? We're going to
23 go ahead and dismiss the case.
24 Thank you.
551
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 DA Clark.
3 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: Okay. I
4 wasn't sure if I was going to get the
5 opportunity to speak, but -- you know, give a
6 lawyer a microphone and I'm going to do what
7 I have to do.
8 (Laughter.)
9 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: But thank you
10 so much for giving me this opportunity, to
11 all of you.
12 I guess I want to say I as well as my
13 colleagues were in favor of the discovery
14 reform. As a former justice of the
15 Supreme Court and a judge on the
16 Appellate Division First Department, I know
17 how important it was, discovery. I was a
18 prosecutor myself, an ADA, and I know what
19 blindfold was. And as a judge, I saw it
20 happen as I presided over cases.
21 You fixed that. You fixed that five
22 years ago, and I championed the
23 transformation that you intended. But -- and
24 the things that you intended for this law to
552
1 do is working. Defenders and my colleagues
2 here understand they have more information
3 than they have ever had before in the last
4 five years now. I think they would have to
5 admit that.
6 I heard somebody else talk about
7 there's less wrongful convictions now because
8 of this. That's how -- that's what you
9 intended to do.
10 I'm here talking about minor revisions
11 to help for the things that were the
12 unintended consequences -- the dismissals
13 that we're seeing on technicalities, our
14 misdemeanors as well as our felonies. And
15 both are equally important because it means
16 that people are not being held accountable.
17 And we need to make sure that they do.
18 Discovery should not be about
19 competitive advantage, it should be about
20 compliance. I want to give you every single
21 thing that I have so you can be ready for
22 trial. That's important. And I'm going
23 through it, and it's making my lawyers better
24 as well. It's making the system better.
553
1 That's what we wanted.
2 But to hold up, to see lying in wait,
3 knowing there's something that's missing --
4 tell me. If you tell me, I'm going to get
5 it, because my obligation never stops.
6 That's what we're talking about. These
7 revisions are going to help that.
8 It's all about whether or not what was
9 ever missing or failed to be turned over,
10 whether or not it prejudices the case against
11 the defendant. Was it that impactful that it
12 should lead to a dismissal? There's so many
13 sanctions that can happen if there's a
14 failure.
15 And I'll be the first to admit we
16 don't always get it right. So I understand
17 that. But when it's something that's
18 technical, victims are suffering, communities
19 are suffering. And defendants are waiting in
20 jail longer than ever before. And they're
21 not getting treatment or anything that we
22 could do for them had the case continued to
23 go forward.
24 So we're asking you to adopt the
554
1 Governor's revisions. It's not a rollback.
2 If it were a rollback, we would be asking for
3 it to disassociated with speedy trial
4 altogether. Prosecutors are not asking for
5 that. We're asking just for a level playing
6 field to make sure that we keep the cases
7 that we have.
8 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
9 Next?
10 MR. STADELMAIER: Thank you,
11 Senator Krueger, Assemblymember Pretlow.
12 You're hearing that these are tweaks
13 and you're hearing that these are simply
14 commonsense, you know, additions to the
15 discovery law. And I don't want you to be
16 distracted, because those are absolutely
17 myths. And we're asking you to omit Part B.
18 These rollbacks are a full repeal of the
19 discovery law from 2020.
20 If you're talking about common sense,
21 common sense is a place in a state where we
22 have 90 percent of our dispositions or
23 upwards of 90 percent of our dispositions
24 being pleas, that you get all of the evidence
555
1 before you have to decide to take a plea.
2 Common sense is an objective versus
3 subjective standard of evidence where you
4 don't allow law enforcement and the district
5 attorneys to act as gatekeepers of that
6 evidence.
7 Common sense is a system of
8 accountability that requires transparency and
9 sanctions failures to be diligent. And
10 common sense is a system where we don't
11 reward law enforcement and district attorneys
12 for their intransigence. And fortunately,
13 current 245 does all of those things.
14 And again, this is not a tweak. Okay?
15 We are changing the standards of how evidence
16 is distributed. We're going to a related
17 to -- or a "relevant" rather than a "related
18 to," again, allowing district attorneys and
19 law enforcement to be the gatekeepers of
20 evidence. We're allowing them to change the
21 standard from constructive to actual
22 possession, which will eviscerate 30.30.
23 They'll be able to simply declare "ready" and
24 turn over their COCs with just the things in
556
1 their possession, which again are very
2 limited.
3 It's going to eliminate the incentive
4 for district attorneys to cooperate with law
5 enforcement. It's going to result in
6 increased incarceration times, it's going to
7 result in increased wrongful convictions.
8 And in no way are these commonsense reforms.
9 And in no way will they create efficiency.
10 And in fact they're going to create increased
11 litigation and increased delays.
12 And as you heard Judge Zayas say this
13 morning, when you change the standard and
14 require that you must show prejudice to get
15 any sanction whatsoever, whether that's a
16 30.30 dismissal or a 245.80 sanction, you're
17 just never going to be able to show it,
18 because the -- the remedy for prejudice is
19 simply delay. It's simply an adjournment:
20 Okay, take some time, you know, go look for
21 your stuff, and then come back.
22 I want to be clear. As Judge Zayas
23 also said earlier today, dismissals are not
24 up. The OCA data is clear. You take a look
557
1 at 2019 versus 2024, in Monroe County, in
2 Rochester, 6 percent less dismissals in 2024
3 than 2019. In Suffolk, 1.4 percent. In
4 Nassau, 5 percent. Where I'm from, in
5 Erie County, 1 percent difference, 1 percent
6 less dismissals. And we have 38 law
7 enforcement agencies that our district
8 attorney's office deals with.
9 So if you want data, that's data.
10 You want a solution to this problem,
11 it is the Myrie bill. You give district
12 attorneys access to the police, you give them
13 access to get those records, it makes their
14 job incredibly easier.
15 They've gotten $80 million over the
16 last three years to implement discovery
17 reform. They're getting another $40 million
18 this year. They have the resources, they
19 have the means, they can comply, and it
20 matters everywhere else but New York City.
21 Upstate is compliant.
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Next?
558
1 MR. McGHAN: So first, we submitted
2 written testimony that addresses things at
3 more length. I'm going to shift gears a
4 little bit away from discovery to the more
5 important issues that we have.
6 Family Court funding first. CDANY is
7 requesting that you adopt the indigent legal
8 services request of $50 million a year,
9 resulting in 150 million in the next three
10 years. This investment in the Family Court
11 system by the state would address mounting
12 inadequacies that threaten the welfare of
13 children and families --
14 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Would you pull
15 the mic a little closer? Thank you.
16 MR. McGHAN: The harsh reality is this
17 will disproportionately affect low-income
18 families. Despite decades of research,
19 hearings and reports about inadequacies of
20 the parental representation system in
21 New York State, New York has not made a
22 meaningful investment.
23 In June 2021, ILS released caseload
24 standards for parent attorneys in New York
559
1 Family Court. Without additional funding,
2 these caseload standards will remain
3 unattainable.
4 Even with additional funding for
5 Family Court and continued funding for
6 criminal defense, without COLA increases this
7 funding becomes less effective. Grants and
8 distributions that once covered an entire
9 position now may only cover a portion of a
10 staff salary.
11 Hurrell-Harring, ILS grants and
12 distributions allow offices to add staff,
13 including social workers and other
14 interdisciplinary partners access resources
15 like experts and technology and additional
16 attorney staff to assure counsel at first
17 appearance, so things that were addressed in
18 Ms. Warth's testimony do not happen like they
19 did.
20 Increased supervision and training.
21 Over the last 15 years this funding has
22 continued, but what is lacking is additional
23 funding for the realities of COLA and salary
24 increases that have caused erosion to the
560
1 ideals and operations of these improvements.
2 Also, we have to address the issue of
3 recruitment and retention. CDANY supports
4 the DALF expansion to increase that and to
5 fill this goals.
6 Finally, I will go back to discovery.
7 I think Judge Zayas said it in his testimony:
8 People v. Bay lays out the standards to
9 declare a certificate illusory. Yet again
10 we're here to erode an essential enforcement
11 mechanism, and the data does not support it.
12 I think Alice and Kevin addressed a
13 lot of the discovery concerns. Alice in
14 particular addressed public safety. I
15 wouldn't know -- I believe the Governor
16 recently addressed public safety in New York.
17 There was a claim and she touted the U.S.
18 News & World Report from August of 2024 that
19 New York State has nine out of the 25 safest
20 counties in the country.
21 Ultimately, but most importantly, this
22 discovery law allows the people our offices
23 represent to make informed decisions about
24 their lives. They get to see all the
561
1 evidence, analyze the strengths and
2 weaknesses of the case before choosing the
3 accepted plea, or go to trial. We need to be
4 able to decide what's related to the case,
5 not a district attorney, not law enforcement.
6 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
7 And our last presenter.
8 MS. BRYANT: Good evening. Thank you,
9 Chairs Krueger and Pretlow and other members
10 of the Legislature that are here on the panel
11 tonight.
12 I'm going to be addressing things that
13 belong in the budget and things that don't
14 belong in the budget.
15 Starting with the New York State
16 Defenders Association, my organization, we
17 provide vital support to public defenders
18 around New York State to satisfy the state's
19 constitutional obligation to provide counsel.
20 We couldn't do that without your support.
21 It's on top of the limited support that the
22 Governor provides on a yearly basis. So
23 we're asking to restore our funding, which is
24 adding $2.1 million to the Governor's
562
1 appropriation.
2 There's details as to all of the
3 things that we're doing with this funding,
4 and we try to do more each year for criminal
5 and Family Court defense.
6 We're asking this year as well for
7 $420,000 for two key leadership positions for
8 our office, a director of training and a
9 director of our public defense case
10 management system, which Executive Deputy
11 Commissioner Popcun actually referenced
12 earlier today. It's key to discovery
13 implementation.
14 Our Veterans Defense Program, which
15 submitted written testimony to the Human
16 Services Budget Committee, we're asking for a
17 restoration of $720,000. That's split
18 between the Assembly and the Senate. It's a
19 very successful program 10 years running. It
20 directs veterans into treatment and support
21 needed to reintegrate while addressing the
22 challenges that veterans face due to military
23 service.
24 There's two key items to highlight in
563
1 the ILS budget. The $50 million for
2 Family Court needs to happen this year. And
3 please, reject the sweep. Don't give the
4 Executive the authority to take millions away
5 from public defense improvements for
6 unspecified purposes.
7 Finally, discovery. Part B must be
8 intentionally omitted from the one-house
9 budgets and rejected outright during
10 negotiations. The characterization of this
11 proposal is intended to downplay what it
12 actually means. The law is reasonable.
13 Exercising diligence within speedy trial time
14 isn't too much to ask. The Court of Appeals
15 has said you have to make reasonable efforts
16 to comply. That's not about handing over one
17 piece of paper or not.
18 We expect prosecutors to review police
19 evidence, but the new law would mean that
20 they don't even have to ask for that evidence
21 because it's not in their possession
22 actually.
23 Prosecutors in parts of New York that
24 accepted that the law was changed, that acted
564
1 to comply and used the funds that you've
2 appropriated to do so, have had success. The
3 law is working. Don't reward employee and
4 prosecutors who choose to ignore the law's
5 mandate.
6 Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
8 First up is Senator Myrie.
9 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you. And thank
10 you for your patience in waiting today.
11 I'm going to ask two questions, one
12 directed to Bronx DA Clark and the other
13 question directed to the three defense
14 witnesses. We have a little bit of time, so
15 I'm hoping we can get to both of these.
16 DA Clark, we've heard that the bulk of
17 the dismissals are due to police failing to
18 turn over information, and I'm wondering if
19 you can speak to whether that is the
20 experience that you have in your office or
21 whether there are other dismissals,
22 particularly in the misdemeanor universe,
23 that are attributable to something else.
24 And then to the defenders, I'm
565
1 wondering if you can speak to whether there's
2 any sanction beyond a dismissal that you
3 think would provide a strong enough incentive
4 for prosecutors to, as I think has been
5 alleged, to not try to skirt the law.
6 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: Thank you for
7 the question.
8 I think a large part of the dismissals
9 we've seen have been because of some type of
10 police paperwork perhaps not being turned
11 over. Something that's duplicitous {sic}
12 they may have the information already, a
13 number of police officers respond, we get 10
14 out of 12 of them, but none of them really
15 acted on it is one thing.
16 But the misconception about this is
17 that discovery is only police paperwork.
18 Discovery is a whole lot more. It's DNA,
19 it's hospital records, it's surveillance
20 cameras from private stores. It's all kinds
21 of things that are part of the case and the
22 charges and the evidence that we have to use.
23 So to say that it's just police is not
24 everything. And we lose cases because some
566
1 other things are not turned over, in addition
2 to some of the police paperwork.
3 MR. STADELMAIER: Senator, in terms of
4 sanctions, what we're dealing with is
5 something incredibly important. We're
6 dealing with people's lives. Okay? We're
7 dealing with people who might end up in
8 prison. We might be dealing with people who
9 have long-term issues that they're going to
10 be facing if they're convicted.
11 So there must be, you know, a very
12 strong standard, a strong incentive for
13 prosecutors to turn things over. People v.
14 Bay makes clear, where the prosecution
15 exercises diligence, where they exercise the
16 due diligence, there will be no dismissal.
17 They don't require a perfect prosecutor. The
18 dismissals that we're seeing upstate, the
19 dismissals we're seeing of indicted felonies
20 in New York result from prosecutors basically
21 turning over nothing or holding on to things
22 for years without turning them over.
23 And whether that's their fault because
24 they haven't embraced culture, because the
567
1 police aren't turning it over, that's really
2 of no effect. Okay? The dismissals we're
3 seeing are because they basically have done
4 nothing in terms of turning things over.
5 So is there a strong enough sanction
6 or a sanction other than 30.30 which is
7 appropriate? In those circumstances, no. In
8 other circumstances where they're diligent
9 and just haven't turned something over minor,
10 then there are 245.80 sanctions available to
11 the judge.
12 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 Assembly.
15 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
16 Dinowitz.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Thank you.
18 Well, before I start, DA Clark, would
19 you agree with that statement he just said,
20 yes or no, that it's like -- the dismissals
21 are because DAs are turning over nothing?
22 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: No, I don't
23 agree with that.
24 We work hard each and every day to
568
1 make sure that we do the right thing. It's
2 important to us to know what the evidence is.
3 You transformed this practice so that
4 now I have to tell my lawyers, you know what,
5 you think this is going to be hard? Yes, it
6 is. But it's going to make you a better
7 lawyer because you're going to know about
8 your case ahead of time. And what you turn
9 over to defense, you're going to know about
10 it -- we don't have to wait in the middle of
11 the case to discover things.
12 That's how it used to be. You changed
13 that. And we are doing everything that we
14 can to turn it over. Am I saying every
15 single prosecutor does that? There are
16 outliers, just like there are outliers with
17 defense attorneys where we turn over
18 everything and they never open the evidence.
19 Okay? Or they wait until the speedy trial
20 clock runs and then they make a motion to
21 say, Oh, there's something wrong with this
22 certificate of compliance. And then the
23 judge says, Well, the clock has run out, it's
24 over.
569
1 If it was something that doesn't go
2 directly to their innocence, if it doesn't
3 prejudice them in any way, if it was
4 something incidental and we didn't turn it
5 over because the clock ran, it's out of our
6 hands.
7 So I would disagree with what he says.
8 We work so hard. Like we are public
9 servants. You think I'm doing -- we want to
10 see our cases dismissed? Why would we do
11 this work if we wanted to see our cases
12 dismissed?
13 We want to make sure that people are
14 held accountable and that communities are
15 safe, and discovery is part of that. And
16 we're doing our job to make sure that this
17 happens. We just want to level the plaintiff
18 playing field to make sure that what is
19 turned over is absolutely what's supposed to
20 be turned over. And we're doing that.
21 If we get it wrong, the ultimate
22 sanction is dismissal. But there should be
23 other sanctions besides dismissal, and you
24 shouldn't be able to sit and wait out the
570
1 clock and then let us know. If I got it or
2 if I'm missing it, tell me and let me get it
3 to you.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Okay. Well,
5 thank you for that yes-or-no answer.
6 (Laughter.)
7 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: But I
8 appreciate it.
9 I only have very little time, so I
10 just wanted to say that I was and still am a
11 very strong proponent of what we did in 2019,
12 and we took a lot of crap for it in our
13 districts, particularly discovery reform.
14 But I'm not an ideologue, I'm not
15 some, you know, like way over law and order
16 person. Nor am I a defund-the-police person.
17 I want to do what's best for our district,
18 and I think we all want to do what's best for
19 our district. If we have to tweak the law,
20 maybe we do, and it would certainly be -- we
21 certainly welcome suggestions on that. I
22 don't know that the Governor's proposals as
23 such make -- I don't know that all of her
24 proposals make a lot of sense. Maybe some
571
1 do.
2 But I think that we have to be
3 prepared to do whatever it takes to make our
4 communities safe.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 Senator Palumbo.
7 SENATOR PALUMBO: Thank you,
8 Madam Chair.
9 I'll go quickly. I'll kind of bounce
10 from team to team.
11 So I practice some on both sides of
12 the aisle. I was a Suffolk ADA for several
13 years, and then was on the other side
14 until -- and there were some comments about
15 common sense and justice and those sorts of
16 things.
17 And I think we can all agree, though,
18 a couple of years ago DA Braggs' office was
19 in here and the New York County DA was
20 really -- had a very big problem because they
21 dismissed almost half of their DWIs. In a
22 county that has probably the most complex
23 public transportation system in the world,
24 people are driving drunk and they're getting
572
1 their cases dismissed.
2 So I understand that, you know, that
3 the 30.30 clock that you seem very resistant
4 to that on that side of the table, that you
5 want that to continue to be the sanction.
6 But obviously the sanction, when your 30.30's
7 dead, is dismissal. What about something
8 incremental like maybe it will tick for -- in
9 custody cases? Out of custody defendants,
10 no. And you can have different incremental
11 levels of sanction where the punishment would
12 fit the crime, like we have in most of our
13 jurisprudence, that yes, if it's a field
14 report that is completely encompassed in the
15 actual paperwork that was turned over, maybe
16 an adverse inference, maybe something. Not
17 dismissal.
18 But if there's something intentionally
19 withheld, like in those comments that you
20 made, that clearly, clearly is something that
21 should be heavily sanctioned if not
22 dismissed. We get it. And if it's Brady,
23 then the bomb goes off -- too bad, you
24 screwed up.
573
1 So I guess for maybe the defenders
2 side, because I didn't shut up and that was a
3 minute and a half so far, do you think that
4 any alternative sanction would be
5 appropriate, something like I just suggested?
6 And if not, please tell me why.
7 MR. STADELMAIER: So, Senator, I did
8 want to point out that 30.30 has been the law
9 of the land for decades, and it was largely
10 written by district attorneys. So they've
11 known for a very long time that there was
12 always the chance that their cases were going
13 to be dismissed if they weren't diligent.
14 The new 245 statute simply codifies
15 that and makes it a little stronger and
16 really requires them to be diligent in
17 turning materials over.
18 I can't speak to the statistics you
19 gave about --
20 SENATOR PALUMBO: But 30.30 was legal
21 sufficiency, not paperwork. Not a memo book
22 right?
23 MR. STADELMAIER: Well, not
24 necessarily. Not necessarily.
574
1 And your statistics on the DWIs, I
2 can't speak to that.
3 But what we're talking about here is
4 prosecutors' offices, because either they
5 can't get the material from the police or
6 because they're holding on to it for whatever
7 other reasons there might be, aren't being
8 diligent in turning things over. And if
9 cases are being dismissed, that's why they're
10 being dismissed.
11 So again, if they're being diligent
12 pursuant to People v. Bay, if they are
13 looking at the materials in their possession,
14 if they are turning over things on schedule,
15 if they are liaisoning with law enforcement
16 and getting the materials from them, there's
17 absolutely no reason why they can't comply.
18 And again, look at upstate. The dismissal
19 rates upstate do not match New York City. So
20 this is an NYPD, NYCBA problem. This is not
21 an upstate issue. And if they get their act
22 together, everything will be fine.
23 MS. BRYANT: I just want to jump in
24 and say ask the prosecutors for proof of
575
1 their claims that cases are being dismissed
2 for one piece of paper not being turned over.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
4 Assembly.
5 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
6 Morinello.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Thank you.
8 I have a general question for anyone
9 to answer. We're sitting here in a budget
10 hearing on public protection. Why are we
11 discussing discovery? Shouldn't that be a
12 separate discussion and not get mixed in so
13 that the dollars oversee the purpose of what
14 we're trying to get at?
15 Anybody could answer that.
16 MS. BRYANT: Yes.
17 MR. McGHAN: Yes.
18 MS. BRYANT: It should not be part of
19 the discussion, and that's why we're asking
20 you to intentionally omit Part B from the
21 Public Protection and General Government
22 Article VII bill.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: And so if I
24 understand what you're saying is, we should
576
1 be debating this in and of itself and
2 analyzing it in and of itself, and not
3 confusing it.
4 And many times what happens here is
5 the things that they're not sure will happen,
6 they throw into the budget because the
7 budget's going to get passed in some form or
8 fashion.
9 I've got one -- just a couple other
10 questions if you'll just give me one second,
11 please. And we're still going to talk a
12 little bit about discovery. But
13 non-prejudicial discovery violations, okay,
14 are those sufficient for dismissal?
15 RENSSELAER COUNTY DA DONNELLY: We
16 don't think so.
17 And I would just like to say if any of
18 my ADAs are intentionally withholding and not
19 doing their job to turn over relevant
20 paperwork, they're not only going to get
21 fired if their case gets dismissed, they're
22 going to be subject to sanctions, the
23 Prosecutorial Commission on Misconduct, and
24 they also have their law license to worry
577
1 about.
2 So there's nobody that I'm supervising
3 that's willfully holding back this paperwork.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: I would find
5 that very distasteful if I knew that there
6 was a prosecutor or someone in the office
7 purposely withholding evidence.
8 Now, are there other -- any states
9 that have discovery laws that either side
10 would prefer or that we might want to look at
11 before we jump into this discussion right
12 now?
13 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: I would like
14 to say this, that the laws that you change --
15 discovery now -- they're the best in this
16 country. I know that other -- they've looked
17 at other states, but they are not as
18 well-written as the ones we have. Even with
19 the reforms or the tweaks or the revisions
20 that we're asking for -- even with those
21 revisions, the New York law will still be
22 stronger than in other states.
23 You know why? Because now you have
24 codified, as my colleague said, codified
578
1 speedy trial to discovery where it wasn't
2 before. So now -- now it's clear that speedy
3 trials -- and if we wanted to really roll it
4 back, one of the first things we would have
5 put down in our revisions is decouple it from
6 speedy trial.
7 We're not asking for that. It should
8 be related to speedy trial. We're just
9 saying that the sanctions should be
10 measurable.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Real quick.
12 Take it out of here.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
14 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
15 Assemblyman Ra.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
17 For DAs Clark and Donnelly, I wanted
18 to actually talk about the proposed changes
19 to the drugged driving laws. As I'm sure you
20 know, I know our two DAs on Long Island have
21 been strong proponents of this. I know that
22 both in Suffolk and our DA Donnelly in
23 Nassau, have talked about the difficulties in
24 prosecuting these types of cases.
579
1 So if you can just talk a little bit
2 about the tools that this change would give
3 to DAs when prosecuting drugged driving.
4 RENSSELAER COUNTY DA DONNELLY: Sure.
5 We've already used the word "common sense" a
6 bit, but this really is a commonsense change.
7 I can't prosecute someone for driving under
8 the influence of drugs if I can't name the
9 particular drug that they're under the
10 influence of and if that particular drug is
11 not on a list in the Public Health Law.
12 Now, you all probably know this, but
13 many of the illegal drugs that people are
14 using currently are coming in from other
15 countries. And all it takes is a tweak to a
16 synthetic drug and it's no longer what we
17 think it is.
18 So finally fentanyl has made it on the
19 list. All you have to do is change a
20 molecule and it's no longer on the list. And
21 I have personally had to sit with families
22 and they cannot understand. And I can still
23 hear the son saying "But she had 12 times the
24 limit of fentanyl." People like to say the
580
1 legal limit. There's no authorized amount of
2 fentanyl.
3 But in any event, she had a gigantic
4 amount of fentanyl in her system, and I was
5 unable to prosecute her at that time. And it
6 was so frustrating to the family.
7 And we don't have to name what kind of
8 alcohol is in someone's system. It really
9 doesn't make sense.
10 And I think people need to understand
11 this is not changing search and seizure.
12 This is not changing what an officer needs to
13 approach a vehicle or to ask someone for
14 blood or to invade their privacy in any way.
15 This is not changing the way we do business,
16 it's simply giving us the ability to
17 prosecute someone, especially under a
18 circumstance related to probably taking
19 someone's life.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Anything to add to
21 that, DA Clark?
22 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: What she said.
23 (Laughter.)
24 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: No, I agree.
581
1 Look, I held a press conference in my county
2 at the very spot where someone was hit by a
3 drugged driver. And, you know, it's very
4 difficult to do that and to have those
5 conversations with these families.
6 Look, it is bad enough that the laws
7 that we have for people who are driving while
8 drunk or under the influence of drugs don't
9 meet the standard as if somebody kills
10 somebody, murder with a gun. That's hard
11 enough to explain. But to be able to explain
12 to them that we can't prosecute it at
13 all because we don't know the exact, you
14 know, composition of the drug, is very
15 difficult.
16 I would ask that those -- there are
17 states where you don't -- they don't have the
18 kind of list that we have and that I don't
19 hear that they are saying that there's any
20 abuses by law enforcement to use that as an
21 excuse to stop people and pull them over and
22 arrest them. We're talking about very tragic
23 situations here.
24 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
582
1 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
2 I don't think there's Senators -- no?
3 Let's go back to the Assembly.
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
5 Walker.
6 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you,
7 Mr. Chairman.
8 Thank you, Madam DA Clark. We heard
9 this morning that there were no indicated
10 felonies based on technicalities in
11 discovery. Can you tell me one from your
12 county where that actually happened?
13 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: I can't
14 remember the particular charge, but the -- it
15 was a case where -- this is how bad this one
16 was. It went to trial and part of the
17 discovery was that a particular document or
18 something wasn't turned over at the time and
19 we were continuing to look for it. The
20 defense attorney wanted to proceed with trial
21 and to -- and said that they would table it
22 until they wanted to bring it up again.
23 They continued to go forward with the
24 case. The case went to trial, the person got
583
1 convicted, and then the defense attorney
2 filed the motion saying that a particular
3 part of discovery wasn't turned over, and the
4 judge overturned the verdict.
5 Now, that's something that could have
6 been dealt with before we went to trial.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Okay, so
8 that's -- I would love to look further into
9 that. It's not necessarily the 30.30
10 conversations that we've been hearing about.
11 But we also heard that there are
12 conferences that set forth timelines, that,
13 you know, folk can ask for more time, that
14 the standard is due diligence and good faith.
15 So if a case was turned over, can you
16 talk to me perhaps what happened with the due
17 diligence and good faith maybe argument that
18 apparently this judge didn't feel that that
19 particular prosecutor adhered to?
20 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: You know, I
21 can't -- you know, I can't. I mean, being a
22 former judge, I know how I would have handled
23 it. I would have never let it go forward
24 until we resolved the issue. But that is
584
1 what happened in that particular case.
2 Look, due diligence and good faith is
3 all that we have, because we are trying so
4 hard to make sure that we turn over
5 everything. And like I said, when we have
6 it, we turn it over. Our obligation always
7 continues. So when we even feel an initial
8 COC, there's supplemental ones. Because as
9 we continue to look to make sure that no
10 stone is unturned, as we find more things, we
11 turn them over.
12 If it gets to a situation where
13 something has finally never been turned over
14 or been turned over too late, it is up to the
15 judge then to hear the arguments of the
16 parties, the people saying we did all we can,
17 good faith, we did what we had to do. But it
18 doesn't prejudice the defendant's case.
19 If it's something that wasn't so
20 monumental to their innocence or, you know,
21 it just wasn't one of those flagrant
22 situations where we held it just because we
23 could, I don't think that dismissals should
24 be the --
585
1 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: In my last
2 sentence, the judge also said that there were
3 no inconsequential dismissals either. And so
4 I'd love to have a conversation about that
5 further.
6 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: You can continue
7 that conversation --
8 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: I would love
9 to follow up. I will make myself available
10 as well.
11 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: -- in five minutes.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN WALKER: Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
14 Palmesano.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes, my
16 question is for DAs Donnelly and Clark.
17 I know we're talking a lot about
18 discovery and the language change from
19 "relating" to "relevant." I was curious, are
20 there really any other aspects to the
21 discovery changes that are not included in
22 the proposed changes, that you would like to
23 see that you think would help reduce the
24 court case buildup and the potential future
586
1 case dismissals?
2 RENSSELAER COUNTY DA DONNELLY: Are
3 you asking if there's something more than
4 what's in the Governor's proposal that we
5 would prefer?
6 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes.
7 RENSSELAER COUNTY DA DONNELLY: Quite
8 frankly, I'm going to say what's in the
9 Governor's proposal is -- is good for us, and
10 we want to live underneath -- we want to live
11 underneath this law.
12 So I'm not looking for anything more
13 to be changed. One of the best parts of this
14 proposal is it precludes a defense attorney
15 at the last minute, at the eve of trial, from
16 making a motion to deem my certificate of
17 compliance illusory. At that point, that is
18 something that they've known for a long time,
19 and that absolutely is a tactic.
20 And again, there are certainly ethical
21 defense attorneys, but there are some that
22 will use that. And I've had examples of a
23 defense attorney who wants a particular plea
24 on a somewhat minor case in a local court,
587
1 and when they don't get what they want, and
2 then we show up at trial, well, suddenly they
3 think there might be a problem with the COC.
4 And guess what the non-attorney judge, who
5 was nervous to do a trial in the first place,
6 does?
7 And next thing you know, someone who
8 was charged with DWI no longer is facing a
9 conviction.
10 So those are the real-life things that
11 are happening upstate. And it is absolutely
12 an upstate problem. And please keep in mind
13 those town and village numbers are not within
14 the dismissals that you heard about earlier.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: DA Clark,
16 anything you want to add?
17 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: No, I agree.
18 I support the Governor's proposal because I
19 think it's -- they keep talking about common
20 sense. It is common sense. We're not asking
21 for a lot, we're just asking for the playing
22 field to be level so that cases are not being
23 dismissed on technicalities. If they're
24 saying it's not a technicality, then so be
588
1 it, let the judge decide what the sanction
2 should be.
3 But if it's a technicality, then
4 dismissal should not be the ultimate goal.
5 There should be -- you know, there should be
6 a spectrum. And that's what the discovery
7 laws already do.
8 What we're asking is that defense
9 attorneys -- we do all we can, good faith,
10 and they can argue that we're not and that's
11 what the process is for, for them to
12 challenge our COCs. But let's do that within
13 the time frame that we have. Again, it
14 should not be about competitive advantage, it
15 should be about compliance. Because we want
16 to comply.
17 MS. BRYANT: And the law was changed
18 not that long ago to already require the
19 defense raise the issue of failure to comply
20 within the speedy trial time.
21 MR. STADELMAIER: Thank you. That is
22 no longer a tactic. This is a tired
23 argument. The law was changed in 2022. We
24 have to object as soon as practicable. As
589
1 soon as we know we don't have something, we
2 need to object. If we don't object, we lose
3 the ability to make a 30.30, we lose the
4 ability to make a 245.80. That is absolutely
5 not happening any longer.
6 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: That is not
7 true. That's not what's happening. That's
8 not what's happening.
9 MR. STADELMAIER: That is what's
10 happening.
11 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: That's not
12 what's happening.
13 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: (Mic off;
14 inaudible.)
15 (Laughter.)
16 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: So thank you for
17 coming and testifying.
18 And I will say, although I didn't ask
19 the question, I think data would be
20 incredibly valuable for doing this evaluation
21 as a legislator. So whoever has additional
22 data to back up their sides, I think we all
23 want it as soon as possible.
24 MR. STADELMAIER: Yes, ma'am.
590
1 BRONX COUNTY DA CLARK: We'll make
2 sure to get that.
3 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you very
4 much. I'm going to excuse you.
5 And I'm going to call up Panel G. And
6 we have -- the Firefighters Association
7 canceled, so we should have the Police
8 Benevolent Association of New York City, the
9 New York State Police Investigators
10 Association, and the New York State
11 Correctional Officers & Police Benevolent
12 Association.
13 Okay, let's everybody get back in
14 their seats.
15 Good evening, gentlemen. And I'm
16 going to ask you first just to introduce
17 yourselves so that they know which face and
18 name to put on the screen together.
19 MR. HENDRY: I'm Patrick Hendry,
20 president of the Police Benevolent
21 Association of the City of New York.
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
23 MR. DYMOND: (Mic off) -- executive
24 director of the -- (mic out) Police
591
1 Investigators Benevolent Association.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Yes, and the
3 green light needs to be on.
4 MR. DYMOND: Tim Dymond, executive
5 director of the New York State Police
6 Investigators Association.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay.
8 MR. SUMMERS: Chris Summers, president
9 of NYSCOPBA.
10 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
11 And if we just go right down the line,
12 three minutes each. Thank you. Please.
13 MR. HENDRY: Good evening, Senators
14 and Assemblymembers. I am Patrick Hendry,
15 president of the Police Benevolent
16 Association of the City of New York,
17 representing 21,000 rank and file members of
18 the NYPD.
19 Our members protect every resident,
20 every neighborhood of the city. And there is
21 one public safety concern we hear again and
22 again. New Yorkers want more police
23 presence. They're not seeing enough police
24 officers on patrol, on the streets, in the
592
1 subway system. When they call for help, the
2 response takes too long. And no matter what
3 the crime statistics might say, they do not
4 see the kind of police presence that makes
5 them feel safe on their own block or in their
6 own subway station.
7 This is not just perception, it is
8 reality. New York City is in the middle of a
9 historic policing staffing crisis. The NYPD
10 is nearly 7,000 police officers short of its
11 peak staffing. An average of 246 members
12 quit or retired from the NYPD each month over
13 the last year. And that record-level
14 attrition has outpaced hiring.
15 Ultimately, the NYPD's public safety
16 mission has suffered. NYPD response times to
17 noncritical crimes in progress have increased
18 by almost 10 minutes over the past four
19 years, while the NYPD has struggled to fill
20 its recent academy classes.
21 It is important to note that the
22 department cannot simply recruit its way out
23 of the staffing crisis. It must also keep
24 the talented police officers it already has.
593
1 A major factor hindering both recruitment and
2 retention is the inequitable benefits
3 available to NYPD members hired since 2009
4 under Pension Tier 3, which lacks many key
5 benefits available to virtually every other
6 police officer in New York State.
7 Police departments across the state
8 are taking advantage of this disparity by
9 specifically referencing their superior
10 retirement benefits in recruiting ads
11 targeting NYPD members. That has made it
12 incredibly difficult for the NYPD to retain
13 police officers who are in the prime of their
14 careers.
15 This is an area where the Legislature
16 can make an immediate positive difference.
17 Senate Bill 2710 and Assembly Bill 3968,
18 sponsored by Senator Scarcella-Spanton and
19 Assemblymember Pheffer Amato would restore
20 the 20-year service retirement for NYPD
21 members hired since 2009, putting them on a
22 more equal footing with their peers across
23 the state.
24 Correcting this inequity is not only a
594
1 matter of fairness, but an important step
2 toward allowing the NYPD to deliver the
3 service and safety that New Yorkers demand
4 and deserve. We look forward to working with
5 these committees and the entire Legislature
6 on solutions to this crisis.
7 Thank you, and I'm happy to answer
8 questions you may have.
9 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
10 MR. DYMOND: Good afternoon, everyone.
11 Tim Dymond, retired senior investigator with
12 the New York State Police, current executive
13 director for the New York State Police
14 Investigators Association.
15 My union represents 1200 active
16 investigators and senior investigators across
17 New York. Our members are assigned to the
18 bureau of criminal investigations and handle
19 the most serious crimes across the state,
20 crimes including murders, rape, robbery,
21 child abuse, kidnapping, human trafficking.
22 And recent cases that you would be familiar
23 with would be the Gilgo Beach serial killer
24 as well as the Robert Brooks murder
595
1 investigation. That is our people. Those
2 are the ones that are tasked with this work.
3 Each of our members begin their career
4 as a New York State Police uniformed Trooper.
5 The hiring process to become a New York
6 Trooper is grueling and competitive, which is
7 one of the reasons the New York State Police
8 are one of the premier law enforcement
9 agencies in this great country.
10 The NYSPIA membership is comprised of
11 hand-selected, experienced Troopers that
12 represent the very best of our agency. Their
13 performance must stand out amongst their
14 peers, and they must demonstrate the
15 intelligence, maturity and integrity to
16 investigate the most complex crimes that were
17 mentioned above.
18 To echo what Superintendent James
19 stated earlier today, our highest priority
20 continues to be recruitment of new Troopers
21 and replacement of our retiring members
22 within our ranks. Like many law enforcement
23 agencies across the country, we are
24 struggling with recruitment and retention.
596
1 We continue to lose our most experienced
2 members to retirement at an alarming rate.
3 The BCI membership sits right now at
4 about 1200 members. We should be a little
5 over 1300. However, we are running out of
6 people to choose from. Troopers no longer
7 want these jobs.
8 In the past, the New York State
9 Trooper exam would be given every four to
10 five years. The tests would routinely get
11 25,000 or more applicants, and admission to
12 the New York State Police was extremely
13 competitive. Those days are over, folks.
14 We have a rolling test and we cannot
15 fill our classes. You may not hear this from
16 everyone else, but I will shoot you straight.
17 We do not have people that want to be police
18 officers in the State of New York. When the
19 New York State Police can't hire, you have a
20 problem. Other agencies are struggling.
21 And what happens when we can't hire?
22 If good people don't take these jobs, bad
23 people will. I'm going to say it again. If
24 good people don't take them, bad people will.
597
1 These jobs will be filled. We are in a
2 dangerous time, and I've said it every year
3 I've been here, and it's just not sinking in.
4 NYSPIA is also a strong supporter of
5 the discovery changes that are proposed in
6 the Governor's budget. Discovery reform has
7 caused more damage to the criminal justice
8 system, in my opinion, than bail reform.
9 There is a reason people don't want these
10 investigator jobs. They are buried under
11 piles of paperwork. They're buried under
12 cases so they can't work the next case.
13 Cases go unsolved. Victims don't get
14 justice.
15 Thank you all for allowing me the
16 opportunity to bring these issues to your
17 attention on behalf of my members. And your
18 assistance with the budget concerns I
19 mentioned today will help us maintain a high
20 level of professionalism.
21 Thank you.
22 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
23 MR. SUMMERS: Good evening.
24 I'm going to open up with the
598
1 Marcy incident that I sent out a press
2 release right after that, before the video
3 was started. And you can tell that we don't
4 condone those actions. But I'm here today, I
5 have 17,000 men and women that go to work,
6 act professional, do their job every day.
7 And I'm here to fight for them.
8 Every year I come here and I tell you
9 that there's staffing shortages, you have
10 violence rising through the roof, we have
11 contraband going through. Nobody wants to
12 listen. Every year we bring these up to you.
13 I'm looking to actually have a real
14 conversation, sit down and have some changes.
15 We need to get this done.
16 But I'm getting sick and tired of
17 hearing that we don't ever give any
18 solutions. We always give solutions. Nobody
19 likes our answers. And if they do, they
20 water down the problems. Like the Secure
21 Vendor Program, they watered that down. The
22 body scanners, they watered it down. What's
23 the point of having them? They're not being
24 used the proper way.
599
1 The way -- the solution from the
2 department and the state is mandatory
3 overtime, work four or five days, 16-hour
4 shifts straight in a row -- and then you know
5 what? We're going to sprinkle in 24-hour
6 shifts. How is that fair to anybody? They
7 cannot work 24-hour shifts and expect to keep
8 doing the job.
9 The department is running the
10 facilities like they are fully staffed.
11 We're not fully staffed. Recruitment.
12 Recruitment -- we were our biggest
13 recruiters. Nobody is telling anybody to
14 take this job anymore. Why would you?
15 There's no work/life balance anymore. You're
16 working all the time, violence is through the
17 roof. Nobody wants this job.
18 The last thing I want to say is you
19 need to stop painting all the employees with
20 the same brush. These men and women come to
21 work every single day. No matter what it
22 is -- snowstorm, if it's raining, if they're
23 sick -- they're going to work, and they act
24 professional and they do their job on a daily
600
1 basis.
2 Thank you.
3 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Thank you.
4 Senator Myrie.
5 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you, Chairman.
6 And thank you for your patience and
7 for being here. And I'm going to direct most
8 of the questions to Patrick but open it up to
9 folks to speak to.
10 Thank you, Patrick. As we've had this
11 conversation before, we have a different
12 relationship than your predecessor, and I
13 appreciate a willingness to engage in a
14 different and I think more civil manner.
15 MR. HENDRY: Thank you, Senator.
16 SENATOR MYRIE: My question is very
17 broad. But I'm hoping in addition to the
18 bill that you mentioned you can give us some
19 more insight into the mental health, quality
20 of life, and overtime for PD, how those
21 things work together, how they are related,
22 and what more we could be doing to help
23 particularly with the first two pieces for PD
24 officers.
601
1 MR. HENDRY: So as far as overtime
2 and -- say these, sorry --
3 SENATOR MYRIE: Mental health, quality
4 of life, and overtime.
5 MR. HENDRY: For our members.
6 SENATOR MYRIE: Yup.
7 MR. HENDRY: So over the last few
8 years it's been incredibly different because
9 of the staffing crisis. And anybody that has
10 commands in New York City, precincts that
11 they go into, they see how many police
12 officers are there compared to the past
13 years. In most of the big commands where you
14 had, you know, 200 police officers, they're
15 down to 120 police officers.
16 So what that has led to is police
17 officers doing crazy amounts of overtime, not
18 being home with their families. Their
19 quality of life has suffered. And what's
20 happened for the people of the city is where
21 they used to see eight, 10 sector cars out on
22 patrol, they're seeing two or three patrol
23 cars out on the scene. They used to see foot
24 posts everywhere. There isn't that foot post
602
1 there.
2 And what's happened is police officers
3 just have been burnt out. They didn't want
4 to do it anymore, they just quit the job. Or
5 they're going to other places throughout the
6 state -- MTA, Port Authority, State Troopers,
7 Nassau, Suffolk, Yonkers -- you name it,
8 throughout the state. Or throughout the
9 country. Or they're just leaving the
10 profession altogether.
11 But police officers' mental health is
12 incredibly important. Being able to have
13 time off, having time with their family is
14 incredibly important. And unfortunately over
15 the last couple of years, because of the
16 staffing crisis, they haven't been able to do
17 that.
18 And we need to fix this. We have
19 inferior benefits to every other police
20 agency throughout the state. That is a fact.
21 We have inferior benefits, and it's not fair.
22 It's not fair to our members and we need to
23 fix this. And we're hoping that in this
24 session it gets fixed.
603
1 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
2 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
3 Dinowitz.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Thank you.
5 My question or remarks are directed to
6 Patrick Henry -- Hendry.
7 It was only a few years ago that some
8 of the elected officials in the city were,
9 you know, "defund the police, abolish the
10 police" and stuff like that. And my response
11 always was, well, if you don't want cops in
12 your district, I got the 50, the 47 and the
13 52 precincts -- we'll take them.
14 And that is how most people feel. But
15 right now I think people in my community, and
16 I'm sure that's true throughout the city,
17 don't believe we have enough police officers.
18 And I can tell you that I don't see a lot of
19 police cars. And the police station, one of
20 the -- the 50 is just right up the block from
21 my office, there's just not enough --
22 certainly there's nobody on foot at all. And
23 whether crime is going up or down, and it's
24 hard to know because some day the chart, you
604
1 know, says murder's going down but, you know,
2 something else is going up. So it's really
3 hard to know.
4 But I can tell you what people
5 believe. People believe crime is up. And
6 not seeing enough cops, you know, in their
7 cars or on the beat makes people feel unsafe.
8 And I think that is a very high priority that
9 we do something about that.
10 So I'm glad, you know, that you made
11 the remarks that you did. I mean, just -- I
12 guess it was just a few weeks ago where did I
13 read that they said that the number of cops
14 we have citywide is like the lowest level
15 it's been in -- probably in a couple of
16 decades.
17 MR. HENDRY: Since 1990, we're at our
18 lowest level, 7,000 police officers less than
19 we were at that same level. And obviously we
20 know how many more people are in this city
21 and how much more responsibilities police
22 officers have to do than -- you know, with
23 cameras and 24-hour police officer, all the
24 reports that we have to do.
605
1 It's made it incredibly tough. And
2 then, you know, now with the subways, they
3 took all the police officers from commands to
4 transit commands to fill those night patrols.
5 So all the police officers that were in the
6 commands for that staffing, no longer there.
7 So this cannot be sustained for the
8 long run. There has to be solutions. There
9 are a lot of reasons why police officers are
10 leaving. But this is unfair. It's unfair to
11 our members. And if someone's going to take
12 the job, which job are you going to take?
13 Are you going to take the job with inferior
14 benefits, or are you going to take the job
15 with better benefits, you know, to start
16 with?
17 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Right.
18 MR. HENDRY: And that's what we have
19 to look at.
20 ASSEMBLYMAN DINOWITZ: Well, I think
21 we got to figure out a way. And I can tell
22 you, on a typical day, a summer day in the
23 Bronx, half the police force is at
24 Yankee Stadium or they're being pulled away
606
1 from all different directions, so we don't --
2 we don't see enough locally. So I think it
3 is a top priority that we figure out a way to
4 keep the police that we have.
5 And I know a lot of cops leave after a
6 few years -- you know, there are better job
7 opportunities elsewhere, so I think that's
8 really a high priority.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. HENDRY: Thank you.
11 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
12 Senator Palumbo.
13 SENATOR PALUMBO: Thank you,
14 Madam Chair.
15 Good to see you all. Thanks for
16 coming and waiting. And I'm a cop's kid. I
17 think people have such a rigid view -- and I
18 was a prosecutor myself, you may have heard
19 me saying it before, worked with many police,
20 obviously, for many years. But there is such
21 a rigid view of law enforcement, they forget
22 that they're moms and dads and brothers and
23 sisters and that it's a very difficult job
24 without all these additional obstacles.
607
1 You folks were here for the exchange,
2 I believe, on the discovery reform, and I
3 think we all know the positions that we take.
4 And Investigator Dymond, you and I spoke the
5 other day and I'm wondering if you could
6 provide -- you indicated in your remarks that
7 you're supportive of those changes -- maybe
8 some real-life examples that your members are
9 dealing with to support reasons why we should
10 have those changes.
11 Because I think that seems to have a
12 little bit more weight when you see these
13 real examples -- and the problems it's
14 causing, which clearly is not, quote, justice
15 for anyone, particularly the victims.
16 MR. DYMOND: Thank you for the
17 question, Senator.
18 Certainly I'm going to echo the
19 Bronx DA who spoke earlier that it is not
20 just the paperwork from the police officer
21 that is discovery. That is a big
22 misconception.
23 Everything is on film now. All of our
24 Troopers are wearing body cameras. We are
608
1 talking hours and hours of camera footage,
2 sometimes from 30 different cameras. We're
3 talking about phone calls on recorded lines
4 from the station to the scene. We're talking
5 about text messages from work phones amongst
6 50 different police officers.
7 This stuff is so -- it's so big and
8 there's so much of it that -- I truly believe
9 that most police officers don't want to hold
10 that back, they want to give it to you. But
11 when that pile is so high and you didn't get
12 the camera footage from the Taco Bell that
13 caught the corner of the shooting, and that's
14 what gets a case tossed, that's unacceptable.
15 And you, you as a legislative body,
16 you decide where the sweet spot is. You
17 decide what is right and wrong. And what I'm
18 telling you is that we have created a
19 situation where we can't find investigators.
20 Multiple troops in New York State in the
21 State Police have no one that wants to be an
22 investigator. Zero on the list, multiple
23 troops.
24 That should scare everyone in this
609
1 room. Because those are the people that are
2 going to go out and they're going to find
3 that kidnapping victim. Those are the people
4 that you're going to call when you've been
5 victimized or there's a burglar that took
6 stuff from your home. They're not going to
7 be there anymore.
8 SENATOR PALUMBO: And I don't know if
9 Tim or everybody wants to just comment: Any
10 additional changes that you think would be
11 helpful that I think -- not lessening the
12 sanction from dismissal, of course, just I
13 think makes the most sense. But any other
14 comments that you have in that regard on what
15 might help?
16 MR. HENDRY: Me?
17 SENATOR PALUMBO: Anyone here. Yeah,
18 sure.
19 MR. HENDRY: I don't have all the
20 information on the bills, you know, because I
21 wasn't provided that. You know, I only read
22 what I've seen in the newspapers.
23 Police officers are overwhelmed as it
24 is. You know, to be able to get information
610
1 or reports is incredibly difficult.
2 SENATOR PALUMBO: Great. Okay, thank
3 you.
4 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
5 Morinello.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Thank you. I
7 have a question that might apply to all three
8 of your divisions. Are there civil service
9 exams necessary to fill the positions?
10 MR. HENDRY: That's the way it is in
11 New York City. You have to take a civil
12 service test.
13 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: You have to
14 take it. Now, are those limited to when they
15 are offered?
16 MR. HENDRY: They're offered more
17 often in the city than they were in the past.
18 So, you know, it's on a computer, so it's out
19 there a lot. Unfortunately, you know, to get
20 police officers right now, they're going back
21 seven years of tests. You know, that's
22 unheard of, to go back seven years. It's
23 unheard of.
24 So people aren't taking the test.
611
1 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: What about
2 corrections?
3 MR. SUMMERS: No, we have open
4 recruitment now. And we still can't get
5 people to take the job.
6 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Because I'm
7 hearing from my own sheriffs and police
8 chiefs that the limitation on the
9 availability of the civil service exams, at
10 least outside of New York City, is hindering
11 some individuals from recruiting.
12 For the correction officers, there is
13 money in the budget for hiring and recruiting
14 correction officers. But will it be
15 sufficient? And how many do you anticipate
16 that would cover, should you be able to get
17 the manpower?
18 MR. SUMMERS: We need 2200 bodies to
19 come in to help -- to stop the mandates that
20 they're doing right now. Like I said,
21 they're working 16-hour days, four days in a
22 row, five days in a row, and then doing
23 24-hour shifts. They can't do it anymore.
24 They're past that breaking point. Something
612
1 needs to give on that.
2 And we can't even get retention. We
3 have had our death-gamble bill to this body
4 for 20 years, and it keeps either getting
5 shut down or vetoed.
6 We need help. And every time we come
7 here, we get the same result: Nothing.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: And as far as
9 the investigators, what is the biggest
10 hindrance for the investigators?
11 MR. DYMOND: Hindrance in recruitment?
12 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Yes.
13 MR. DYMOND: So we have a very young
14 job right now in the State Police. As
15 everyone here knows, we've hired a ton of
16 Troopers over the last couple of years to try
17 to catch the ranks up. So they have to get a
18 certain experience level before they can go
19 to the bureau, before they're ready to handle
20 these heavier cases.
21 The problem we're seeing is that
22 they're getting to that five-year mark,
23 right -- so you're a Trooper, you come up to
24 five years, you can decide the bureau route,
613
1 right, and become an investigator, or you can
2 decide the sergeant route. The bureau route
3 is buried now with discovery work and court
4 testimony, so we're seeing more and more
5 people that are taking that sergeant's route.
6 So we're trying to figure out ways
7 internally to get some more at that five-year
8 mark that are qualified, good candidates, to
9 take the bureau route so we can continue our
10 strength in ranks.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: So I think
12 from listening to all of you, recruitment and
13 new officers would assist in the whole
14 process.
15 MR. HENDRY: And retention of our
16 older ones.
17 MR. SUMMERS: And retention also.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Next we have Senator Rolison.
20 SENATOR ROLISON: Thank you,
21 Madam Chair. It's good to see all three of
22 you this evening, and thanks for waiting.
23 For PBA President Hendry, the Governor
24 has in her budget $77 million to be
614
1 coupled -- I believe $77 million, as I heard
2 from DCJS earlier, of New York money for the
3 subway surge. And as we have said here even,
4 you know, talking about like, well, all those
5 officers are coming from someplace. And if
6 they're down below, they're not up top. And
7 you could be essentially pushing the problem
8 around.
9 MR. HENDRY: Correct.
10 SENATOR ROLISON: People who are prone
11 to do things based on a lot of behavioral
12 issues -- of course we know that's also very
13 concerning and difficult -- that maybe
14 they're not going to be in the subway,
15 they're going to be up on street level.
16 And eventually that money runs out.
17 And if you're 7,000 officers short, how long
18 does the State of New York or the City of
19 New York have to put those types of monies
20 into overtime when potentially they could be
21 put into salary and benefits to have more
22 officers stay, have more officers hired?
23 I'll tell you in my last year of the
24 City of Poughkeepsie, I think we hired five
615
1 NYPD officers. They're some of the
2 best-trained, equipped officers that we've
3 been able to lateral in, because that wasn't
4 necessarily the case until they were able to
5 do that. And of course that's not the ideal
6 situation for the city, so I hear you.
7 And to NYSCOPBA President Summers,
8 today we had conversations with the
9 commissioner and talked about the staffing
10 analysis that is not at a hundred percent,
11 talking about 70 percent. Clearly you are
12 not in a position probably -- and I don't
13 know this, you know, factually -- have you
14 even reached 70 percent when you're over
15 2,000 officers down and over a thousand
16 members of your civilian staff down.
17 So just -- I said this to the
18 commissioner, and I'll say the same thing to
19 you -- and it's sort of a question -- is that
20 do you believe that if you had a smaller,
21 more agile group of corrections officers who
22 were paid better, got additional training as
23 necessary and you're able to staff posts that
24 were, you know, analyzed as being the
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1 critical posts within the facilities, could
2 that potentially work?
3 MR. SUMMERS: It could work. But you
4 have to protect what we have now and to go
5 from 70 percent, that's unsafe. We're asking
6 for them to run the facilities safe and
7 secure now to make it run the way it should.
8 We're not fully staffed, it's not running it
9 that way. To cut jobs and beds is not the
10 answer to do that. Absolutely not.
11 SENATOR ROLISON: Okay. Understood.
12 MR. SUMMERS: But we do need new
13 training, yes.
14 SENATOR ROLISON: Good. And then to
15 Tim Dymond, I'm with ya.
16 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Lavine.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN LAVINE: I'm taking the
18 fifth. But I hear what you're all saying.
19 And thanks for what you do.
20 PANELISTS: Thank you.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Well, that was
22 nice and brief. Thank you.
23 (Laughter.)
24 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Sorry, I
617
1 apologize.
2 Senator Stec. Oh, no? Oh, excuse me.
3 Senator Murray.
4 SENATOR O'MARA: (Inaudible.)
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: It's his fault.
6 But it's Senator Murray.
7 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
8 Chairwoman.
9 And thank you all for being here.
10 So let's see, let's run down the list.
11 Salary and benefits, whether it's
12 Tier 6 or Tier 3 or retirement benefits.
13 Forced mandatory overtime, which then
14 leads to burnout, which then leads to some
15 retiring early and leaving early, which now
16 makes the problem grow even more.
17 Then we come to some of the policies,
18 whether it's bail reform, discovery, 50A, the
19 HALT Act, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
20 And then some of the other things. As
21 a result of the policies -- and I mentioned
22 earlier today the incident in Times Square
23 where the officers were attacked and beaten
24 and they catch -- you do your job, you catch
618
1 the people that did it, the perpetrators.
2 And then, what, 24 hours later, if that,
3 they're walking out the court, flipping us
4 the bird, laughing, giggling and running off.
5 And for my friend Assemblyman Lavine,
6 I will even throw in January 6th, the people
7 that were attacking the police officers, and
8 they get pardoned.
9 That's got to -- add all of this up, I
10 would see the biggest problem's morale at
11 this point. And like has been mentioned
12 before, who would want to be a law
13 enforcement officer in this day? It used to
14 be prestigious, it used to be so respected.
15 And it should be. It feels like we're losing
16 that.
17 And I think a lot of it falls on us
18 when we make policies like that that are
19 hurting it.
20 But if you had to pick anything here
21 out of that list, what would be the thing you
22 would -- if you had a magic wand and you
23 could wave it and correct it, what would it
24 be that would help you to either recruit or
619
1 retain?
2 MR. HENDRY: Well, I said before as
3 far as, you know, equalizing our members to
4 everyone else in the state would be a step
5 forward.
6 But also, you know, we had over
7 4700 members assaulted with injuries last
8 year, and we've been going from courtroom to
9 courthouse across the city demanding change,
10 you know, holding the judges accountable. We
11 feel that the judges in certain cases are not
12 doing their jobs and we've been going, again,
13 demanding change.
14 So we have had issues because, you
15 know, every day a police officer's getting
16 assaulted. But our main issue is to be equal
17 to everyone else in the state.
18 MR. SUMMERS: I would have to say the
19 HALT law. It has to change.
20 I've had members from the Legislature
21 walk correctional facilities, and the
22 incarcerated are telling them that it's not
23 working, it needs to change, there needs to
24 be revisions done. It's not safe for
620
1 anybody. Everybody -- they need to look at
2 that and have a serious talk and at least
3 revise it.
4 SENATOR MURRAY: Mr. Dymond?
5 MR. DYMOND: Salary and benefits are
6 great, but I think a lot of it's societal
7 change, right? We need to start getting in
8 our communities and start speaking positively
9 of police officers and corrections officers.
10 We've got to start talking about how it's a
11 good career and a good profession and you can
12 make a difference.
13 That, to me, is a big change.
14 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you, everybody.
15 Thank you for what you do.
16 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Dilan.
17 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Thank you,
18 Mr. Chair.
19 My questions are for Mr. Summers.
20 I just want to start by saying I'm
21 glad you led that in the days after the
22 murder of Mr. Brooks that your organization
23 condemned that action.
24 You had a chance to hear the
621
1 commissioner today, to hear his father today.
2 Do you have any immediate reaction to what
3 you heard and how you intend to speak to your
4 workforce about what you heard today?
5 MR. SUMMERS: Do I have the reaction
6 of what I've heard today?
7 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: From the
8 commissioner and from Mr. Robert Ricks, who's
9 Robert Brooks' father.
10 MR. SUMMERS: As I stated before about
11 the Marcy incident and Brooks, I'm very sorry
12 for what happened.
13 But I'm here to fight for the
14 17,000 other men and women, and everything
15 that I put in my press release is there.
16 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: And that's
17 understandable, that's your job. But I think
18 if -- and we've had many discussions on
19 staffing since I've become chair, including
20 in this room in December before that tragic
21 event. We talked about programming and how
22 the lack of staff at DOCCS potentially
23 affects programming, which could lead to
24 folks getting out sooner based on the reforms
622
1 they've made and merit time.
2 So to put that into a question, the
3 budget has, in Article VII language, language
4 that would allow people from other states to
5 potentially join the ranks of corrections
6 officers. Do you have a position on that?
7 MR. SUMMERS: I think that would be a
8 great start to get people to come in and
9 start to take this job. It's not -- it's not
10 the fix.
11 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: Okay. So that
12 means you believe we've done everything as a
13 state to exhaust all recruitment
14 possibilities, that within the State of
15 New York we cannot find anyone to take these
16 jobs?
17 MR. SUMMERS: We cannot get anybody to
18 take this job. Last year when I sat in front
19 of this body to tell you about closing
20 facilities, we closed two: Great Meadow,
21 Sullivan. Since then, staffing has got even
22 worse. It didn't help at all.
23 So we need to make better benefits.
24 Why can't we do that to get people to take
623
1 this job? We have put in a salary grade
2 application for an upgrade. The last time
3 we've been -- we got an upgrade was 1972.
4 And I'm not sure if you're aware of that.
5 But we asked for three grades, from the 14th
6 to the 17th.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: I wasn't around in
8 1972.
9 MR. SUMMERS: The death-gamble bill,
10 geo pay, we've asked for all that to try to
11 get people that live in this state to take
12 this job and to retain people, and we get
13 nowhere. It's just empty promises.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN DILAN: I think folks have
15 tried, but we're not exactly recruiters here.
16 But I guess we'll continue the discussion at
17 another time. Thank you.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Any other
19 Senators? Other Assemblymembers?
20 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: There's always
21 other Assemblymembers.
22 Assemblymember Palmesano.
23 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Yes, good
24 evening, gentlemen.
624
1 First I just want to say to all three
2 of you, thank you for what you and your
3 members do for all of us across the state,
4 working dangerous jobs to keep us safe. So
5 thank you.
6 My question -- my time is with
7 Mr. Summers, if I may. As you said, you come
8 up here every year, I'm sitting at this dais
9 every year, your predecessors who came up
10 here -- same concerns, same problems, same
11 ask, and it seems like things are just
12 getting worse and worse.
13 You can go down the list: The rise in
14 violence, which I will say specifically has
15 to do with HALT, which restricts the ability
16 to segregate our most violent inmates from
17 the rest of the general population. And the
18 numbers speak for themselves.
19 Since HALT, inmate-on-inmate assaults
20 are up 169 percent, inmate-on-staff assaults
21 are up 76 percent, and contraband seizures
22 are up 32 percent. So we know the violence
23 is up.
24 The staffing crisis that you have, the
625
1 mandatory overtime, sometimes three times,
2 for a triple shift. The quality of life --
3 vacation days, personal days getting taken
4 away so they have to work.
5 The woefully inadequate pay, which I
6 said to the commissioner, $56,000 to bring
7 someone into a dangerous job. Where are the
8 recruitment bonuses? Where are the retention
9 bonuses? Where's the death gamble to protect
10 the pension, an earned pension for your
11 members to protect their spouses and their
12 families so they can have that benefit?
13 And then I read a memo this week to go
14 on top of it, I think it came out -- a
15 staffing memo that the way I read it is
16 designed to reduce 30 percent of the slots by
17 eliminating open jobs and posts. Not because
18 they're not needed or important, but because
19 they can't be filled.
20 That doesn't fix the problem. That
21 doesn't make us more safe. That's not going
22 to deal with the staffing crisis. It's just
23 going to hide it.
24 So I just want to ask you, what can
626
1 you say -- with the time, what would you --
2 what can we do for you to help you in this
3 process that we're not giving you?
4 MR. SUMMERS: To go -- to answer your
5 one question about the staffing memo, all
6 that is is compiling and it's going to make
7 it unsafe for everyone. It's not doable.
8 already the violence is through the roof and
9 it's going to -- you can't cut staff and cut
10 the jobs, it's not feasible to do so.
11 We need staff. We need this body to
12 actually look at raising the starting point.
13 We need revisions to HALT. We want -- all
14 we're asking for is we want to go to work and
15 be safe. That's it. We don't go to work,
16 we're not safe. It's -- the working
17 conditions are -- they suck. Excuse my
18 language, but they do. And nobody wants to
19 go to work anymore.
20 We had a member that I had to get a
21 note from because he's working four, five
22 doubles in a row, with a suicide note,
23 because he couldn't take this job and said it
24 sucked. That's where we are right now. And
627
1 it can't be -- they can't do it anymore.
2 We -- something has to change.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO: Thank you.
4 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: More?
5 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Of course there's
6 more.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Of course there's
8 more.
9 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman Ra.
10 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
11 Could all three of you maybe give me a
12 sense of what does a training academy class
13 look like now in terms of numbers, as well as
14 the number of applications versus what it
15 did -- or what it looked like in the past in
16 terms of numbers?
17 MR. HENDRY: I guess I'll start. So
18 when I came on in 1993, there were about
19 50,000 applicants for the test. I'd say
20 right now is a couple of thousand for the
21 test. That's a huge difference.
22 Now, they were able to put in an
23 academy class this cycle, close to a
24 thousand. But my class was close to 3,000.
628
1 So those are the big, big differences -- as I
2 already said, the numbers were down 7,000.
3 So when you're only putting in classes before
4 that of like 600 but we're losing 800 before
5 that class even goes on, we're outpacing
6 hiring.
7 MR. DYMOND: So ours used to be 20,000
8 to 25,000 would take the test; for five
9 years, that test would exist. To get into
10 that test, it was like you had to be there.
11 You didn't want to miss it.
12 We have now gone almost to a
13 completely rolling testing procedure like
14 NYPD and like Corrections, and we're about to
15 put in a class of 270. But we are scraping
16 for that 270. And no one wants to talk about
17 lowering standards. Folks, we're there.
18 We're kicking the ages up on everything,
19 we've gotten rid of our tattoo policies, we
20 got rid of as much as we can -- and we're
21 still just scraping by.
22 MR. SUMMERS: When I started 20 years
23 ago, my class had 150 people in it and we
24 graduated 123. Going through the academy
629
1 now, we're lucky to get 75 to start and
2 they're graduating 40. Nobody wants to stay.
3 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: So would it be
4 similar to the --
5 MR. SUMMERS: I'm having the same
6 problems that everybody else is.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: -- in terms of
8 attrition basically outpacing what's coming
9 in?
10 MR. SUMMERS: It's outpacing, I'm
11 having guys resign with 10, 15 years on the
12 job. Twenty-three years on the job they're
13 resigning because they don't want to do this
14 job anymore. As soon as they hit 25, they're
15 leaving. They're not even staying anymore.
16 We used to be able to retain officers.
17 We can't do that anymore. And when they
18 stopped hiring in 2020 and they didn't hire
19 for two years, that hurt us. And the numbers
20 don't lie. So 2027, 2028, 2029 and 2030 are
21 going to be high years that everybody can
22 retire. The state needs to do something to
23 get more bodies in because they're going to
24 be even worse off then than they are now.
630
1 MR. HENDRY: I'll just say we lost
2 443 cops in the month of January. That's
3 staggering.
4 ASSEMBLYMAN RA: Thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblywoman
6 Giglio.
7 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Yay. Okay.
8 So for Tim, senior investigator. So
9 you are -- we have problems with TERPO/ERPO
10 with the AG's office representing State
11 Police when they had to go on these
12 TERPO/ERPO cases. Has that been resolved?
13 MR. DYMOND: That has been resolved.
14 And I thank all of you for that. And we got
15 the petitioner line bill through, thank you.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Okay. And then
17 the next question that I have for you, would
18 money for civilians to be able to compile all
19 the information that you need for discovery
20 help you in the senior investigators? And
21 how frustrating is it to know that there are
22 people that are human trafficking, sex
23 trafficking people, drug trafficking, and it
24 takes years to build a case against them
631
1 because you have to compile all this
2 information for discovery?
3 MR. DYMOND: I certainly think
4 additional staffing would help, right?
5 There's an additional workload that was
6 created by the additional discovery. Whether
7 it's civilian or sworn, that's well above my
8 pay grade. But additional staffing would
9 help. And I think that would keep some of
10 these cases from slipping through the cracks.
11 It is not a well-kept secret that if
12 you hire a defense attorney in the State of
13 New York, you are beating almost any case.
14 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Okay. And then
15 for New York City Police. So we have -- I
16 have heard from many people in Nassau and
17 Suffolk County, and even, you know, areas
18 upstate that are saying that they're going to
19 the New York City Police Department because
20 then, once they're there, they can transfer
21 to another department.
22 How many transfers are you seeing?
23 MR. HENDRY: So right now anybody that
24 comes on to the NYPD is taking it as a
632
1 stepping stone. They're not taking it as
2 their dream job no more. And it's very sad.
3 When I came on, when police officers
4 came in they would take it as their dream
5 job. And they're not -- no longer doing
6 that.
7 Last year, quits alone I believe were
8 at 843, and that's with -- it's close to a
9 thousand just leaving to go to other
10 departments throughout the state, throughout
11 the country, or just leaving the profession.
12 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Yeah, thank
13 you.
14 And for Corrections. So, you know,
15 the solitary confinement laws -- and also
16 sexual harassment of women correction
17 officers, has anything gotten better with
18 that?
19 MR. SUMMERS: I'm sorry, what was the
20 question?
21 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: The solitary
22 confinement and the limited time you can put
23 somebody in solitary confinement, even though
24 they may be a threat to the general
633
1 population or to corrections officers --
2 that, number one.
3 And number two, the sexual harassment
4 from incarcerated individuals to women
5 correction officers.
6 MR. SUMMERS: Yeah, you need to revise
7 the laws. There's no more repercussions,
8 there's nothing to stop them from doing any
9 of that.
10 And the harassment. You go to Walmart
11 and you want your daughter to be sexually
12 harassed at Walmart? No, you wouldn't. Now
13 you have a mother, daughter, your sister
14 going into work and have to deal with that on
15 a daily basis? It's unacceptable.
16 ASSEMBLYWOMAN GIGLIO: Thank you.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay. I think we
18 are completed with the people who wanted to
19 ask you questions tonight. Thank you very
20 much for staying with us this late, and thank
21 you all for your work.
22 PANELISTS: Thank you so much. Thank
23 you all.
24 Thank you for hanging in.
634
1 Thank you.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
3 And now I'm going to call up Panel H.
4 We need a number of chairs, although maybe a
5 few people have left. We'll see.
6 We have the New York State Dispute
7 Resolution Association, the Center for
8 Justice Innovation, the New York State
9 Coalition Against Domestic Violence, the
10 Empire Justice Center, and New York Legal
11 Services.
12 Oh, and we have everybody with us, and
13 we have the right number of chairs. And we
14 decided to go from all men to all women.
15 All right, if you would start -- let's
16 start with Kristin. Introduce yourself just
17 so that they know in the video room whose
18 face goes with whose name when you testify.
19 MS. BROWN: Kristin Brown, Empire
20 Justice Center.
21 MS. CURRAN: Sal Curran, with the
22 New York Legal Services Coalition.
23 MS. GERHARDT: Joan Gerhardt, New York
24 State Coalition Against Domestic Violence.
635
1 MS. HOBBS: Theresa Hobbs, New York
2 State Dispute Resolution Association.
3 MS. NOLASCO: Hailey Nolasco, Center
4 for Justice Innovation.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Great. Why don't
6 we start with Kristin, and we'll just go down
7 the line. Thank you.
8 MS. BROWN: Good evening. My name's
9 Kristin Brown. I'm president and CEO of
10 Empire Justice Center. We're a
11 statewide nonprofit law firm with seven
12 offices across the state focused on systems
13 change. Our clients include disabled
14 students, immigrants facing eviction, elderly
15 people facing tax foreclosure and the loss of
16 generational wealth.
17 I'm also the president of the New York
18 Legal Services Coalition and serve on the
19 New York State Unified Court System's
20 Permanent Commission on Access to Justice.
21 To summarize the details of my written
22 testimony -- all of which focus on closing
23 New York's justice gap, which is the
24 difference between New Yorkers' need and
636
1 services available -- I'll touch on three key
2 issues.
3 One, my colleague Sal Curran will
4 testify in more detail regarding the
5 recruitment and retention crisis in civil
6 legal services. I'll just note that for our
7 systems change work, Empire Justice Center
8 relies on experienced attorneys to provide
9 training to others in the field, litigate
10 civil rights, and provide you all with
11 information to policy change.
12 Sadly, we've come to serve as a
13 training ground for government agencies to
14 recruit from because government's able to pay
15 more and provide a pension. In a three-month
16 period, we lost three experienced attorneys
17 from our Rochester office to New York State.
18 For a small org like ours, this hit us hard
19 and it cut one of our key practice areas down
20 to a single paralegal.
21 That brings me to the second issue.
22 Working with colleagues in the New York Legal
23 Services Coalition to educate on this issue,
24 over the past two years I'm pleased to note
637
1 critical investments from our two main
2 funders this year that will also be essential
3 to allowing providers to pivot and retain
4 services that may be impacted by federal
5 funding cuts.
6 I ask you to support both of these in
7 your one-house budgets. One, the Office of
8 Court Administration's proposed budget
9 includes a significant increase for judiciary
10 civil legal services. As you heard earlier
11 today, please support $150 million for JCLS.
12 Two, the Interest on Lawyer's Account
13 has recently awarded five-year grants
14 totaling $600 million which provide stability
15 and support for salary and infrastructure
16 investments. We're also pleased that they
17 recently signed an agreement with the
18 Governor recognizing IOLA as a fiduciary fund
19 where funds are directed by the Board of
20 Trustees alone.
21 We ask that you support the full
22 $80 million approved by the trustees for this
23 year, which is 2.5 million less than they
24 requested -- than the Executive Budget
638
1 allocates.
2 We also ask that you restore the
3 traditional Legal Services Assistance Fund
4 dollars.
5 Finally, I ask that you consider
6 much-needed reforms to not-for-profit
7 contracting for New York State. As providers
8 face cuts in federal funding, it's really
9 critical that New York promptly pays us for
10 the services we provide. It's common to wait
11 well over a year for payment on a contract
12 for services rendered, staff paid, rent,
13 other overhead costs. Our organization is
14 regularly owed millions of dollars with no
15 interest paid and no clear idea when we can
16 be paid.
17 Thank you so much.
18 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
19 Next.
20 MS. CURRAN: Thank you for the
21 opportunity to testify. My name is Sal
22 Curran, and I'm the executive director of the
23 Volunteer Lawyers Project of Central New York
24 in Syracuse, and I'm the cochair of the
639
1 Policy and Advocacy Committee of the New York
2 Legal Services Coalition.
3 Collectively, the New York Legal
4 Services Coalition members represent
5 low-income New Yorkers in every single county
6 of the state in family law, domestic
7 violence, immigration, housing, foreclosure,
8 public benefits, debt, elder law, LGBT law,
9 and more.
10 We have a recruitment and retention
11 crisis. I know you've been hearing that from
12 many people tonight. This crisis is driven
13 not only by an attorney shortage but by a
14 substantial wage gap between attorneys in
15 civil legal service and their government
16 counterparts doing substantially similar
17 work.
18 On average, civil legal services
19 attorneys receive 25 percent less than their
20 counterparts at the Attorney General's office
21 at the beginning of their career, and those
22 inequities only grow throughout their
23 careers. By the time that they've been
24 practicing 21 years, if we're so lucky that
640
1 they stay with us, experienced civil legal
2 aid attorneys are paid as much as 38 percent
3 less than their counterparts at the AG's
4 office, based on a survey that we conducted.
5 The combination of higher salaries and
6 a government pension is very difficult to
7 compete with, particularly for mid-career
8 attorneys that we need to act as supervisors.
9 As a result, lawyers are leaving legal
10 services agencies for government jobs at an
11 alarming rate. When attorneys leave, it may
12 take six months or more to fill a position
13 due to the low pay we're able to offer.
14 Across the state, it's estimated that
15 attorney vacancies like this in 2024 resulted
16 in 50,000 fewer clients served. These
17 include people who are evicted, immigrants
18 who are deported, grandparents who struggle
19 to get custody of their grandchildren after
20 their own children died -- all because they
21 didn't have access to an attorney.
22 To address this recruitment and
23 retention, we urge the following. As my
24 colleague mentioned, support the 150 million
641
1 for judiciary civil legal services in the
2 proposed OCA budget.
3 Add the 2.5 million back to the
4 80 million total asked for by IOLA and
5 support the budget language designating IOLA
6 as a fiduciary fund.
7 Restore traditional legislative adds
8 for civil legal services, including
9 designated funding for domestic violence
10 legal services, immigration, eviction, and
11 the Legal Services Assistance Fund.
12 And support efforts to expand right to
13 counsel in immigration, housing, and for
14 veterans.
15 Thank you for your time, and I look
16 forward to answering your questions.
17 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
18 Next.
19 MS. GERHARDT: Hello, thank you. I'm
20 Joan Gerhardt, director of public policy and
21 advocacy at the New York State Coalition
22 Against Domestic Violence. We represent
23 approximately a hundred domestic violence
24 service providers around the state.
642
1 New York State is failing to address
2 the needs of domestic violence survivors and
3 their families. There are three main reasons
4 for this.
5 First, the way New York State
6 contracts with DV providers is broken. Five
7 state agencies administer our funding.
8 That's tremendous bureaucracy and
9 administrative costs both for DV programs and
10 the state.
11 Second, the state takes months to
12 finalize our contracts and then fails to
13 reimburse us on time, creating significant
14 cash-flow issues even for the most
15 financially robust programs.
16 Third, New York State has failed to
17 provide DV advocates with living wages -- no
18 COLAs, no bonuses, and this year the Governor
19 excluded us from her target inflationary
20 increase. As a result, there are hundreds of
21 vacancies across the sector.
22 For years domestic violence programs
23 have been relying on lines of credit and
24 loans just to keep their doors open. They've
643
1 been reducing programming, focusing only on
2 the provision of core emergency services.
3 And that impacts our ability to provide
4 lifesaving services for domestic violence
5 survivors. We see it in the data. On any
6 given day in New York, more than a thousand
7 adults and children who ask for services
8 can't get them.
9 This situation has been brewing for
10 years, but now domestic violence programs are
11 in an existential crisis. That's because
12 New York relies almost exclusively on federal
13 funding to support domestic violence
14 services. The funding might be administered
15 by state agencies, but it's not state
16 dollars -- it's primarily federal funding.
17 Two weeks ago the federal OMB
18 suspended grant, loan and financial
19 assistance activities. Domestic violence
20 programs were some of the first agencies to
21 be impacted. We were immediately shut out of
22 our federal reimbursement systems.
23 Thankfully the order was rescinded 48 hours
24 later. But we are by no means out of the
644
1 woods. The situation remains extremely
2 tenuous as the federal government continues
3 its assessment of the availability and use of
4 federal funding.
5 There's no way DV programs will be
6 able to continue services if their federal
7 funding is cut or if the use of their federal
8 funding is restricted. Unless New York State
9 acts now, DV programs will close their doors.
10 We urge the Legislature to ensure the
11 long-term sustainability of New York's
12 nonprofit DV service providers. We propose a
13 $200 million program to fix New York's broken
14 system, to move away from our overreliance on
15 federal funding, to streamline our
16 contracting and reduce redundancy, and to
17 ensure DV programs can continue their
18 lifesaving supports for all DV victims, in
19 compliance with state law, even if federal
20 funding is no longer available or if it can't
21 be used to support certain survivors.
22 Thank you.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
24 Next.
645
1 MS. HOBBS: Hi, good evening,
2 Chair Krueger, Chair Pretlow, and esteemed
3 members of the joint committee. Thank you
4 for the opportunity to testify today.
5 My name is Theresa Hobbs, executive
6 director of the New York State Dispute
7 Resolution Association, known as NYSDRA. We
8 manage statewide contract programs, and we
9 are the professional association of the
10 statewide network of Community Dispute
11 Resolution Centers, called CDRCs.
12 For over 40 years the centers have
13 served all 62 counties of New York State,
14 helping thousands of residents resolve
15 disputes efficiently and equitably through
16 alternative dispute resolution practices such
17 as mediation, arbitration, and restorative
18 practices -- all without the cost, time and
19 burden of court proceedings.
20 Last year the centers managed over
21 20,000 cases and served over 53,000
22 individuals. These services help
23 individuals, families, students, businesses,
24 landlords and tenants, and entire communities
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1 find solutions that prevent escalation into
2 harm and legal conflicts.
3 As you heard from Judge Zayas earlier
4 today, ADR is a highly effective way of
5 resolving issues, and the courts are making a
6 historic pivot to leverage ADR across the
7 entire system, with CDRCs as a key partner.
8 The CDRCs provide your constituents
9 with access to justice that is timely, free
10 or low cost, culturally responsive,
11 confidential, and the resulting agreements
12 are legally enforceable. Nearly 80 percent
13 of mediations conclude with a written
14 agreement, usually within a few weeks of
15 initial contact with individuals, and the
16 CDRCs have a satisfaction rate of
17 approximately 90 percent.
18 Mediation also saves the state and
19 court system money and resources. From start
20 to finish, the average mediation costs just
21 $336, which is far less than court costs.
22 As Judge Zayas also pointed out in his
23 testimony, his court-based programs will only
24 be as good as the funding that organizations
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1 like NYSDRA receive, since we and our member
2 centers are an integral part of the ADR
3 landscape that will support the courts by
4 alleviating backlogs, preventing filings, and
5 keeping communities safe and
6 conflict-resilient.
7 The Judiciary's budget request
8 includes a $3 million increase for the CDRC
9 network to retain skilled staff and sustain
10 these services. While this $3 million
11 increase in OCA funding will help to support
12 core operations, the OCA grant is
13 two-pronged: 20 percent of the grant is
14 match-free, 80 percent requires that the
15 centers secure a dollar-for-dollar match.
16 And that is why NYSDRA is requesting
17 3 million in funding to support the centers
18 under our Community Justice and Resolution
19 Initiative, which I have outlined in the
20 written testimony I submitted to this
21 committee.
22 This funding is critical. When I sat
23 here last year we had 20 centers in the
24 network, and today we have 19. I ask that
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1 you fully support the Judiciary's budget,
2 including the $3 million increase.
3 Thank you so much.
4 MS. NOLASCO: Thank you,
5 Chair Krueger, Chair Pretlow, and members of
6 the committees for the opportunity to testify
7 today. My name is Hailey Nolasco, and I
8 serve as the senior director of the Center
9 for Justice Innovation -- the senior director
10 of government relations at the Center for
11 Justice Innovation.
12 At the center we are dedicated to
13 reducing community violence while moving away
14 from an overreliance on incarceration. For
15 far too long we've been told that we must
16 choose between justice and safety, that these
17 two goals are somehow mutually exclusive.
18 The truth is, to achieve true justice we must
19 build safety. And for communities to feel
20 safe, they must feel the presence of justice.
21 The way that we achieve this is
22 through the diverse array of programming that
23 our Community Justice Centers provide. These
24 centers provide both court-based services
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1 like those in Midtown, Harlem and Red Hook,
2 and community-based resources like those in
3 Brownsville and Staten Island.
4 They tackle the root causes of justice
5 involvement, offering legal support,
6 employment, housing, education and treatment
7 services. By working directly with local
8 communities, they improve quality of life by
9 building public trust in the justice system
10 and reducing crime and incarceration.
11 Our work is critical to neighborhood
12 safety. And for this reason, we're asking
13 for your support to sustain and amplify our
14 Community Justice Center footprint. For our
15 Midtown Community Justice center in
16 particular, we ask for support to expand our
17 Community First initiative that takes a
18 client-centered, trauma-informed approach to
19 addressing the needs of unhoused New Yorkers
20 and to support the creation of an
21 Amsterdam Houses and Amsterdam Addition
22 Neighborhood Safety Initiative in response to
23 ongoing community needs and concerns around
24 violence.
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1 In the South Bronx, we request support
2 to develop a fully operational, streamlined
3 Bronx Community Justice Center to offer
4 alternatives to incarceration, youth
5 development programs, and community-led
6 justice safety initiatives. This area is
7 highly impacted by the criminal justice
8 system and community violence, with
9 disproportionately higher rates of
10 incarceration, violent crime, and
11 disinvestment.
12 In 2023, the violent crime rate was 17
13 per 1,000 residents, more than triple the
14 citywide rate. In 2024, 38 percent of the
15 city's shooting incidents and 31 percent of
16 total homicides occurred in the Bronx. We
17 plan to address these community needs through
18 our fully operational Justice Center, with
19 your support.
20 In Staten Island, we ask for
21 operational and capital support to expand
22 services and renovate a historic courthouse
23 to establish a permanent home for our
24 existing Staten Island Justice Center.
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1 Lastly, we ask, for New Rochelle, to
2 continue the investments to sustain our vital
3 work. Since its inception, we are proud to
4 say that 122 young people have completed the
5 Opportunity Youth Part program, the vast
6 majority of them graduating without a
7 criminal record.
8 Community Justice Centers are the
9 heart of our mission. They are proven,
10 powerful examples of how government
11 investments and resident input can positively
12 impact vulnerable communities across New York
13 State. Further investment will allow us to
14 sustain and scale these transformative
15 initiatives and extend their impact.
16 Thank you for your time and
17 consideration. Our amounts are outlined in
18 our written testimony. Thank you.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
20 Senate?
21 (No response.)
22 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assembly?
23 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Assemblyman
24 Morinello.
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1 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Thank you.
2 I have some direct -- a couple of
3 questions on the domestic violence.
4 We've talked about the programs. But
5 is one of the focuses protection and safety
6 of the victims?
7 MS. GERHARDT: Absolutely.
8 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: And could you
9 agree that one of the most dangerous times in
10 a victim's life is when either the victim, a
11 neighbor or a family member calls in the
12 authorities because of an incident that is
13 occurring?
14 MS. GERHARDT: Definitely.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Do you feel
16 that the bail changes have adequately
17 addressed -- and I'm not talking about the
18 entire change of bail, I'm talking about just
19 specifically for domestic violence victims,
20 okay.
21 Do you feel that there's adequate
22 protection for those victims during that
23 short window when the abuser is finally
24 grabbed, the police come, and there's a
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1 cooling-off period? Do you feel there's
2 sufficient latitude to hold that person to
3 protect the victim?
4 MS. GERHARDT: I think initially, with
5 the 2019 bail changes, no. With some of the
6 tweaks that have been implemented since then,
7 it's better.
8 But I can't sit here right now and
9 tell you that I have the data from the entire
10 state to say in all cases domestic violence
11 abusers are handled in such a way to enhance
12 safety for the survivor and for their family.
13 I just don't have that kind of data.
14 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Well, you
15 know, everyone talks about statistics. But
16 you've been doing domestic violence for a
17 number of years. I sat on the bench for
18 10 years as the domestic violence judge. And
19 I don't think we need statistics, I think we
20 just need reality.
21 I believe it was last year some poor
22 woman was taking her children to school, the
23 husband drove up, violated an order of
24 protection, put the shotgun through the
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1 window and blew her head off in front of the
2 kids. Okay?
3 Because of the fact they could not
4 hold this individual because of the bail
5 laws. And this was after the initial
6 tweaking.
7 So I will again ask, and maybe anybody
8 can answer this question. Do you feel that
9 just that narrow portion of the bail laws
10 need to be revisited and maybe discussed?
11 MS. GERHARDT: There's still
12 discretion for law enforcement on that scene.
13 What they choose to do with the individual,
14 the perpetrator who they believe allegedly
15 committed a crime.
16 So I can't make a decision for an
17 entire statewide policy --
18 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: I'm talking
19 about the judiciary, not the police. Because
20 the judge's hands are tied.
21 All I'm saying is do you think we
22 should look at it.
23 MS. GERHARDT: I think we should
24 always be looking at all of our laws. So
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1 absolutely.
2 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: Okay. Well,
3 I'm talking -- listen.
4 (Time clock sounds.)
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Assemblyman
6 Bores.
7 ASSEMBLYMAN MORINELLO: -- the same
8 answer you gave me when I called you.
9 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Thank you all for
10 being here and for waiting through all the
11 panels. Appreciate it.
12 I just have a question for
13 Ms. Nolasco. Good to see you again.
14 MS. NOLASCO: Good to see you.
15 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Your testimony
16 talks a lot about the Community First program
17 and partnership with navigators and the
18 wraparound services. Could you just say a
19 little bit more about how it differs from
20 perhaps the city's outreach and the benefits
21 you've gotten from that?
22 MS. NOLASCO: So what we would say
23 distinguishes our program is that we
24 understand that it takes over a hundred times
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1 that you engage with an unhoused individual
2 that they may want to come inside.
3 But we also understand that there's
4 more that has to happen within those hundred
5 or more times that you're engaging with
6 someone.
7 So what we do is that we're not
8 going -- we're not speaking to them saying,
9 Okay, you need to come inside right now.
10 We're talking to them to really try to build
11 that trust. So we're building the trust with
12 them. We're saying, Do you need food? Do
13 you need -- do you have your entitlements?
14 If you do, do you need support in navigating
15 that? Because we do know that that's
16 available. But do you need additional
17 services in having a more hand-held approach
18 in navigating that.
19 Do you have socks? Do you need a
20 place to go? You know, who's your family?
21 So we pretty much really just check on them
22 daily just to see who are you, how are you
23 doing, we're here for you. And through
24 building that trust, then we can support the
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1 existing programs through DSS/DHS with the
2 existing shelter network that exists, and
3 really helping them to navigate it, because
4 we understand that it could be a very scary
5 process.
6 So that's how we really distinguish
7 it, that we're more of the -- we're going to
8 really take our time to really support you
9 through this and know that we're really here
10 for you, and we know your name, and we know
11 everything that you need.
12 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: It's a great
13 program. And as we think about especially
14 other changes in the budget aimed at, you
15 know, street safety and how to get people off
16 the streets, I think there's a lot that we
17 could learn from that.
18 Thank you.
19 MS. NOLASCO: Thank you. Appreciate
20 it.
21 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Are you done?
22 ASSEMBLYMAN BORES: Yes.
23 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Okay, thank you.
24 Assembly?
658
1 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Yes, we're done.
2 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: And the Assembly
3 is done, and the Senate is done.
4 Thank you all for your work, and thank
5 you for staying with us so late. Appreciate
6 it very much. Thank you.
7 All right. And our last panel is the
8 Correctional Association of New York, the
9 Center for Community Alternatives, and the
10 Center for Employment Opportunities.
11 I understand the Correctional
12 Association is not here, so they don't get to
13 testify.
14 Yes, we have written testimony from
15 everyone. Thank you, Assemblymember Dilan.
16 Even people who did not sign up to testify at
17 all, when they submit testimony, it goes on
18 both of our websites, Assembly and Senate,
19 and everyone, including all 19.5 million
20 New Yorkers, can read them.
21 And with that, welcome to our last
22 panel for this everything. And just
23 introduce yourselves for the video first.
24 MS. BRADLEY: Alyssa Bradley, Center
659
1 for Employment Opportunities.
2 MR. GANT: And I'm Thomas Gant,
3 G-A-N-T, for the Center for Community
4 Alternatives.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you. Why
6 don't we start with you.
7 MS. BRADLEY: Good afternoon, Chair --
8 good evening, Chair Krueger, Chair Pretlow,
9 and members of the Senate and Assembly.
10 My name is Alyssa Bradley, and I'm a
11 policy manager with the Center for Employment
12 Opportunities. I appreciate the opportunity
13 to speak to you today about CEO and our work
14 across New York and the need for increased
15 resources for New Yorkers returning home from
16 prison.
17 CEO has nearly 40 years of experience
18 in workforce development programming. Our
19 mission is to provide immediate, effective
20 and comprehensive employment services to
21 individuals recently returning home from
22 incarceration. As the largest provider of
23 reentry employment services in New York, we
24 serve individuals on parole and probation
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1 supervision in Albany, Buffalo, Rochester and
2 New York City, with an intentional focus on
3 individuals facing the most significant
4 barriers, while also returning $3.30 for
5 every dollar of public investment into CEO's
6 program.
7 After our participants complete our
8 orientation class, CEO hires and provides
9 them with immediate employment, for which
10 they're paid daily, through our transitional
11 work crews, and offers advanced training
12 opportunities in key industry sectors.
13 CEO operates more than 35 work crews
14 across New York state that provide
15 public-sector agencies with a variety of
16 general labor services. Access to immediate
17 work through a transitional job helps our
18 participants gain stability and motivation to
19 attain long-term, quality full-time jobs
20 outside of CEO.
21 We appreciate Governor Hochul's
22 attention to reentry services in the
23 Executive Budget and for continuing to
24 allocate funding to assist people returning
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1 home as they navigate reentry. However, we
2 must do more. CEO urges the Legislature to
3 consider our recommendations to ensure the
4 investment brings additional capacity to
5 serve formerly incarcerated people, implement
6 new strategies to target this population to
7 increase public safety, and ensure the
8 process is equitable.
9 CEO maintains a commitment to meeting
10 participants' complex needs through
11 wraparound and supportive services. We want
12 to see targeted investments in entry-based
13 reentry services for community organizations
14 that provide the on the ground resources that
15 are crucial for New Yorkers returning home.
16 Additionally, an essential part of
17 CEO's broader strategy is ensuring
18 individuals have access to immediate
19 financial resources upon release. For many
20 of the individuals we serve, the transition
21 from incarceration is marked by food
22 insecurity, unstable housing, and
23 justice-related debts -- obstacles that
24 hinder reentry success.
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1 The Reentry Assistance Program, led by
2 Assemblymember Gibbs, is a critical piece of
3 legislation that would address this gap by
4 increasing the financial assistance provided
5 to returning citizens at their most
6 vulnerable time, and aligns with Governor
7 Hochul's commitment to facilitating
8 employment for individuals on parole and
9 reducing recidivism across the state.
10 I want to close with direct testimony
11 from one of our former clients and Advocacy
12 Leadership Committee members, Maria Nieves:
13 "People often think reentry is simple -- go
14 home, get a job, move forward. But it's not
15 that easy. Returning home after
16 incarceration is filled with barriers, from
17 securing basic necessities to overcoming the
18 stigma that follows us. Immediate financial
19 assistance --
20 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: {Mic off;
21 inaudible.}
22 MR. GANT: Good evening. It's an
23 honor to be here.
24 I'm a community organizer for the
663
1 Center for Community Alternatives, and I'm
2 also formerly incarcerated. I'm here to
3 share that now is the time for New York to
4 move toward the remedy for sentence reform.
5 Now is the time to move forward to giving
6 incarcerated citizens hope. Now is the
7 moment, more importantly, to give families
8 across New York State hope. And I'm here to
9 express strong support for and including the
10 Second Look Act, S158, the Earned Time Act,
11 S352, and the End Predatory Court Fees, S318,
12 into the budget.
13 We also stand in opposition to the
14 Governor's proposal to undo critical and
15 damaging changes {sic} to the discovery
16 reform. The Second Look Act allows judges to
17 reconsider excessive sentences, offering
18 incarcerated individuals the chance to
19 demonstrate rehabilitation and reintegration
20 readiness.
21 New York incarcerates over 30,000
22 people, 75 percent of which are Black and
23 brown, with many aging and now suffering
24 chronic health issues. This act aligns with
664
1 growing national momentum for second-look
2 legislation supported by judges, labor
3 unions, law enforcement, and 68 percent of
4 New Yorkers. It gives our justice system
5 flexibility and humanity, moving us away from
6 perpetual punishment and toward more of a
7 rehabilitative process.
8 The Earned Time Act strengthens
9 opportunities for individuals to reduce their
10 sentences by incentivizing good behavior and
11 rehabilitative efforts. Research shows
12 earned time reduces recidivism, makes prisons
13 safer and lowers correctional costs. Yet
14 New York lags behind states like Alabama and
15 Oklahoma in earned-time opportunities.
16 This legislation garners 74 percent
17 support from New Yorkers and promotes
18 reintegration by investing in rehabilitation
19 over warehousing.
20 The End Predatory Court Fees bill,
21 S318, would eliminate mandatory court
22 surcharges, probation fees, and incarceration
23 for unpaid fines and fees that also function
24 as a regressive tax on our most vulnerable
665
1 citizens.
2 Black and brown New Yorkers are
3 disproportionately burdened by these
4 surcharges, which can lead to missed rent,
5 healthcare and basic necessities. New York's
6 reliance on fines for revenue mirrors
7 discriminatory practices, eroding trust and
8 worsening racial inequities.
9 By ending these unjust practices, we
10 can stop criminalizing poverty and redirect
11 resources to real community needs.
12 Finally, I urge the rejection of the
13 Governor's proposal to undo discovery reform.
14 This proposal would reintroduce discretion
15 for prosecutors and police to withhold
16 evidence from the defense, undermining
17 transparency and increasing the likelihood of
18 wrongful convictions and prolonged pretrial
19 detention.
20 Our current discovery laws were
21 designed to ensure fairness and efficiency,
22 critical for preventing unjust outcomes like
23 those experienced by Kalief Browder. Instead
24 of dismantling these reforms, we should
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1 expand direct access to police databases, as
2 proposed in legislation by Assemblymember
3 Lasher and Senator Myrie.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: Thank you.
6 First to question, Roxanne Persaud.
7 SENATOR PERSAUD: The mic doesn't want
8 to come on now.
9 I just wanted to thank CEO for the
10 work that they're doing in my district. You
11 know, it's one of my housing developments,
12 and the commitment of the team there it's,
13 you know, second to none.
14 So I just want to make sure you know
15 that I'm appreciative of the work they're
16 doing, and that's why I'm supporting your
17 request that we've put in, and we will
18 continue to work with you. Because as I said
19 to your CEO, I'd love to have you bring
20 additional folks into other developments
21 within my district.
22 So I look forward to continuing
23 working with you, and thank you again.
24 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: (Inaudible.)
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1 I will say that, Mr. Gant, I do
2 support those pieces of legislation that
3 you're referring to. We in the -- at least
4 in the Assembly are trying our best to
5 correct a lot of the ills that are in our
6 criminal justice system so it doesn't just
7 pertain to just us.
8 And it's something that -- it's a work
9 in progress. I know it should be going a lot
10 quicker than it is. But, you know, we
11 started with bail reform and then that got
12 beaten up and changed and we're just moving
13 down the line trying to make things right.
14 MR. GANT: Appreciate that, sir.
15 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: For the record, I
16 think the Assembly has a partner in the
17 Senate on these goals.
18 CHAIRMAN PRETLOW: Yes.
19 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: But also
20 Senator Myrie is I think our closing Senator.
21 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
22 Tom, it's good to see you.
23 MR. GANT: Good to see you, Senator.
24 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you for the work
668
1 that you continue to do, and it's been a
2 pleasure being in the fight with you.
3 And Alyssa, thank you for your
4 patience -- both of you for waiting until the
5 end of the day to testify.
6 I just want to ask a brief question of
7 CEO. Do you find that your applicants have
8 lower recidivism rates? And if so, do you
9 think that has any policy implications?
10 MS. BRADLEY: Yeah. So we've had a
11 couple of, you know, evidence-based reports
12 come out that show that, you know, our
13 program reduces recidivism by up to
14 22 percent.
15 We also, you know, track our
16 participants for up to a year post-placement,
17 help them out. You know, if they lose their
18 job, they're able to immediately pop back on
19 our worksites and get that daily pay again.
20 If they've, you know, gotten
21 certifications, gotten their driver's license
22 reinstated, gotten a car, we're also able to
23 provide them with, you know, upskilling and
24 more, you know, career-oriented pathways if
669
1 they come in in that year after that we place
2 them.
3 And, you know, that's shown that up
4 to, you know, 52 percent of folks are able to
5 maintain that job for up to a year too.
6 SENATOR MYRIE: Thank you.
7 CHAIRWOMAN KRUEGER: With that, we
8 want to thank you so much for staying with us
9 all day to participate tonight.
10 And this is the official close of the
11 Public Protection hearing.
12 For people who are just depending on
13 watching us every day, next week we won't be
14 here. But the week after, we will, so tune
15 in again.
16 Thank you very much.
17 (Whereupon, at 8:29 p.m., the budget
18 hearing concluded.)
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