602
1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE
2
3
4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD
5
6
7
8
9 ALBANY, NEW YORK
10 February 10, 2026
11 3:26 p.m.
12
13
14 REGULAR SESSION
15
16
17
18 SENATOR ROXANNE J. PERSAUD, Acting President
19 ALEJANDRA N. PAULINO, ESQ., Secretary
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25
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1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
3 Senate will come to order.
4 I ask everyone to please rise and
5 recite the Pledge of Allegiance.
6 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited
7 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.)
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: In the
9 absence of clergy, let us bow our heads in a
10 moment of silent reflection or prayer.
11 (Whereupon, the assemblage respected
12 a moment of silence.)
13 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Reading
14 of the Journal.
15 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, Monday,
16 February 9, 2026, the Senate met pursuant to
17 adjournment. The Journal of Sunday, February 8,
18 2026, was read and approved. On motion, the
19 Senate adjourned.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Without
21 objection, the Journal stands approved as read.
22 Presentation of petitions.
23 Messages from the Assembly.
24 Messages from the Governor.
25 Reports of standing committees.
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1 Reports of select committees.
2 Communications and reports from
3 state officers.
4 Motions and resolutions.
5 Senator Gianaris.
6 SENATOR GIANARIS: Good afternoon,
7 Madam President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Good
9 afternoon.
10 SENATOR GIANARIS: At this time I
11 move to adopt the Resolution Calendar.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: All
13 those in favor of adopting the
14 Resolution Calendar, please signify by saying
15 aye.
16 (Response of "Aye.")
17 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Opposed,
18 nay.
19 (No response.)
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
21 Resolution Calendar is adopted.
22 Senator Gianaris.
23 SENATOR GIANARIS: Please recognize
24 Senator Mayer for an introduction.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
605
1 Mayer for an introduction.
2 SENATOR MAYER: Thank you,
3 Madam President.
4 I'm extremely proud to have a group
5 of terrific high school students from
6 Mamaroneck High School here today in the
7 OCRA program.
8 OCRA stands for Original Civic
9 Research and Action, a program that was started
10 by Joe Liberti, a teacher in Mamaroneck
11 High School who has built his whole program on
12 civic engagement by young high school students.
13 Showing that notwithstanding, as Senator Bailey
14 said earlier today, this impression of young
15 people is entirely inaccurate.
16 We have students who are here to
17 witness what happens in the State Capitol, to
18 make sure their voices are heard, and to learn
19 how to advocate and advocate for the issues they
20 care about.
21 So I hope you will recognize them
22 and give them all the cordialities of the house.
23 I'm so pleased they could be here and see us in
24 person, in action.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: To the
606
1 students representing the OCRA program, welcome
2 to the State Capitol. We extend to you the
3 cordialities of the house.
4 Please rise and be recognized.
5 (Standing ovation.)
6 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
7 Gianaris.
8 SENATOR GIANARIS: Madam President,
9 I believe we're still on motions and resolutions.
10 I have a motion on behalf of
11 Senator Ramos. On page 8, I offer the following
12 amendments to Calendar 134, Senate Print 5990,
13 and ask that said bill retain its place on
14 Third Reading Calendar.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
16 amendments are received, and the bill will retain
17 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
18 SENATOR GIANARIS: And on behalf of
19 Senator Mayer, on page 12 I offer the following
20 amendments to Calendar 176, Senate Print 2598,
21 and ask that said bill retain its place on
22 Third Reading Calendar.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
24 amendments are received, and the bill will retain
25 its place on the Third Reading Calendar.
607
1 SENATOR GIANARIS: Please take up
2 the reading of the calendar.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
4 Secretary will read.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 103, Senate Print 4030A, by Senator Fernandez, an
7 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
9 last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect on the 90th day after it
12 shall have become a law.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll.)
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
17 the results.
18 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
19 Calendar 103, voting in the negative are
20 Senators Borrello, Chan, Gallivan, Griffo,
21 Helming, Lanza, Oberacker, O'Mara, Ortt, Rhoads,
22 Stec, Tedisco, Walczyk, Weber and Weik.
23 Ayes, 47. Nays, 15.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
25 is passed.
608
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 105, Senate Print 4513, by Senator Ramos, an act
3 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
5 last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect on the 180th day after it
8 shall have become a law.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
10 roll.
11 (The Secretary called the roll.)
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
13 the results.
14 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
15 Calendar 105, voting in the negative are
16 Senators Ortt and Walczyk.
17 Ayes, 60. Nays, 2.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Sorry.
19 Senator Ramos to explain her vote.
20 SENATOR RAMOS: Yes, thank you,
21 Madam President.
22 I am of course voting to support my
23 bill that creates a public review process for
24 climate projects in communities that are
25 frontline to the environmental crisis, like mine
609
1 in Queens.
2 We suffered tremendously during
3 Hurricane Ida. They tried to put a peaker plant
4 in the part of Astoria I used to have prior to
5 redistricting. We just want our communities to
6 be able to have a say in what happens in them.
7 We want to make sure that we are able to either
8 make projects better or to stop bad projects when
9 we can.
10 So this is about equity. This is
11 about making sure the voices in disadvantaged
12 communities are heard. And we are hopeful that
13 this is only going to strengthen our ability to
14 meet our climate goals through the CLCPA and
15 others so that we can make this a leading state
16 in the fight for sustainability.
17 Thank you so much, Madam President.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
19 Ramos to be recorded in the affirmative.
20 Announce the results.
21 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
22 Calendar 105, voting in the negative are
23 Senators Martins, Ortt and Walczyk.
24 Ayes, 59. Nays, 3.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
610
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 106, Senate Print 4574B, by Senator May, an act
4 to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
6 last section.
7 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
8 act shall take effect one year after it shall
9 have become a law.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
14 the results.
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 131, Senate Print 2076, by Senator Mayer, an act
20 to amend the Labor Law.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
22 last section.
23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
24 act shall take effect immediately.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
611
1 roll.
2 (The Secretary called the roll.)
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
4 the results.
5 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
7 is passed.
8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
9 138, Senate Print 1329, by Senator Parker, an act
10 to amend the Public Service Law.
11 SENATOR LANZA: Lay it aside.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Lay it
13 aside.
14 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
15 232, Senate Print 925, by Senator Kavanagh, an
16 act to amend the Real Property Actions and
17 Proceedings Law.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
19 last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 6. This
21 act shall take effect on the 90th day after it
22 shall have become a law.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
24 roll.
25 (The Secretary called the roll.)
612
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
2 the results.
3 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
4 Calendar 232, voting in the negative are
5 Senators Borrello, Oberacker, Palumbo, Stec,
6 Tedisco and Weber.
7 Ayes, 56. Nays, 6.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
9 is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 235, Senate Print 4852, by Senator Skoufis, an
12 act to amend the Executive Law.
13 SENATOR LANZA: Lay it aside.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Lay it
15 aside.
16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
17 248, Senate Print 4804, by Senator Ryan, an act
18 to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
20 last section.
21 THE SECRETARY: Section 13. This
22 act shall take effect on the 180th day after it
23 shall have become a law.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
25 roll.
613
1 (The Secretary called the roll.)
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
3 Ryan to explain his vote.
4 SENATOR RYAN: Thank you,
5 Madam President.
6 I just want to rise today and speak
7 in favor of this great piece of legislation,
8 which takes on a very real and a very urgent need
9 and concern for our first responders across
10 New York -- police officers, firefighters,
11 volunteer firefighters, and our ambulance
12 companies.
13 In many, many communities, small
14 communities, particularly in rural areas, we are
15 heavily dependent on emergency responders. These
16 are not individuals that are waiting around in a
17 station. When an alarm sounds, they respond from
18 home, they respond from work or wherever they
19 happen to be.
20 In an area of crisis -- in a moment
21 of crisis, those seconds matter. But
22 unfortunately the physical layout of many of
23 these emergency facilities creates unnecessary
24 hazards. Many of these stations sit along busy
25 roadways without traffic signals or warning
614
1 devices to slow motorists. In other cases,
2 volunteer parking is located across the street,
3 forcing first responders to cross busy roads when
4 running to the call.
5 The reality of this is very
6 troubling. Our first responders put themselves
7 in danger before they even get to the emergency
8 by having to dodge traffic.
9 This bill offers a practical
10 solution. It authorizes local governments and
11 fire districts to install signage, roadway
12 markings, and traffic control devices around
13 emergency stations to better warn drivers and to
14 protect our important first responders.
15 It also strengthens enforcement by
16 increasing penalties and establishing a mandatory
17 one-year license suspension after three
18 convictions for a failure to yield.
19 Let's please protect our first
20 responders. And I urge this bill's passage.
21 Thank you.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
23 Ryan to be recorded in the affirmative.
24 Announce the results.
25 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
615
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
2 is passed.
3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
4 255, Senate Print 122A, by Senator Cleare, an act
5 directing the Departments of Environmental
6 Conservation and Health to establish
7 environmental standards for ambient lead and lead
8 contamination in soils.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
10 last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
12 act shall take effect on the 90th day after it
13 shall have become a law.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
15 roll.
16 (The Secretary called the roll.)
17 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
18 Cleare to explain her vote.
19 SENATOR CLEARE: Thank you,
20 Madam President.
21 Special thanks to our leader,
22 Andrea Stewart-Cousins, and our fearless
23 Environmental Conservation Committee chair,
24 Pete Harckham, for bringing this bill to the
25 floor.
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1 You know, I have been working to
2 eradicate the toxic substance known as lead for
3 most of my entire adult life. We've made great
4 strides, particularly in housing. But to truly
5 finish the job we must stop lead poisoning from
6 all sources, direct and ambient, from soil, air,
7 and water.
8 So I proudly sponsor this bill
9 because no amount of lead is safe in any form or
10 fashion. Therefore, we must have the highest
11 standards. Lead poisoning is a completely
12 preventable condition, and we must join in unison
13 to forever eradicate lead from our homes, from
14 our soil and from our water supply.
15 And this commitment must be a
16 generational one with complementary policy funds
17 and interventions that revolve and are
18 replenished each and every year for as long as it
19 takes to make us, as a whole, healthy.
20 Thank you to my colleagues in the
21 Senate Democratic Conference for always leading
22 on these issues. I look forward to a day when we
23 can live lead-free.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
25 Cleare to be recorded in the affirmative.
617
1 Announce the results.
2 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
4 is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 266, Senate Print 9073A, by Senator Harckham, an
7 act --
8 SENATOR LANZA: Lay it aside.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Lay it
10 aside.
11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
12 267, Senate Print 9074, by Senator Harckham, an
13 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
15 last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
17 act shall take effect on the 30th day after it
18 shall have become a law.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.)
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
23 the results.
24 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
25 Calendar 267, voting in the negative are
618
1 Senators Martins, Oberacker and Walczyk.
2 Ayes, 59. Nays, 3.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
4 is passed.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 269, Senate Print 1062, by Senator Serrano, an
7 act to amend the Arts and Cultural Affairs Law.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
9 last section.
10 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
11 act shall take effect on the 120th day after it
12 shall have become a law.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll.)
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
17 Serrano to explain his vote.
18 SENATOR SERRANO: Thank you very
19 much, Madam President.
20 Today was -- is Arts Day in Albany.
21 We had a series of panel discussions with arts
22 groups from throughout the State of New York
23 talking about how the arts are so important to
24 their communities in so many different ways.
25 This legislation in a lot of ways
619
1 speaks to that need statewide. By creating arts
2 and cultural districts throughout the State of
3 New York, we will find ways to better nurture the
4 growing arts communities in places throughout the
5 state that historically have not had that level
6 of support from our state government.
7 We all know that the arts are
8 transformative. We know that the arts bring
9 about so many important things. Yes, of course
10 they are a huge economic engine. But the arts
11 have the ability to promote social discussion
12 that many other mediums can't foster. And they
13 do it in a way that unites us, something that we
14 need now more than ever.
15 So the arts are important on so many
16 different levels, yet they've overlooked when we
17 think about all of the different priorities that
18 we have to deal with as a State Legislature.
19 But I really believe that this
20 legislation will go a long way in ensuring that
21 local arts organizations in places -- in
22 different areas throughout the state that
23 historically don't have a lot of support will be
24 able to form cultural districts that they can
25 nurture the artists' community there and have a
620
1 really strong economic and social impact on those
2 communities.
3 I vote aye.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
5 Serrano to be recorded in the affirmative.
6 Announce the results.
7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
9 is passed.
10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
11 270, Senate Print 1377, by Senator Serrano, an
12 act creating a legislative task force on outdoor
13 environmental education.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
15 last section.
16 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
17 act shall take effect immediately.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
19 roll.
20 (The Secretary called the roll.)
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
22 the results.
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
25 is passed.
621
1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
2 272, Senate Print 83, by Senator Liu, an act to
3 amend the Penal Law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
5 last section.
6 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
7 act shall take effect immediately.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
9 roll.
10 (The Secretary called the roll.)
11 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
12 the results.
13 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
14 Calendar 272, voting in the negative:
15 Senator Brisport.
16 Ayes, 61. Nays, 1.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
18 is passed.
19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
20 280, Senate Print 195, by Senator Martinez, an
21 act to amend the Public Health Law.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
23 last section.
24 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
25 act shall take effect immediately.
622
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
2 roll.
3 (The Secretary called the roll.)
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
5 the results.
6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
8 is passed.
9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
10 282, Senate Print 353, by Senator Rivera, an act
11 to amend the Public Health Law.
12 SENATOR LANZA: Lay it aside.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Lay it
14 aside.
15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
16 283, Senate Print 1287B, by Senator Persaud, an
17 act to amend the Public Health Law.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
19 last section.
20 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
21 act shall take effect on the 30th day after it
22 shall have become a law.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
24 roll.
25 (The Secretary called the roll.)
623
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
2 the results.
3 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
5 is passed.
6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
7 291, Senate Print 672B, by Senator Hinchey, an
8 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
10 last section.
11 THE SECRETARY: Section 10. This
12 act shall take effect immediately.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
14 roll.
15 (The Secretary called the roll.)
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
17 the results.
18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
20 is passed.
21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
22 292, Senate Print 1180B, by Senator Gianaris, an
23 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
25 last section.
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1 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This
2 act shall take effect on the 30th day after it
3 shall have become a law.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
5 roll.
6 (The Secretary called the roll.)
7 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
8 the results.
9 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
10 Calendar 292, voting in the negative are
11 Senators Borrello, Chan, Gallivan, Griffo,
12 Helming, Lanza, Murray, O'Mara, Ortt, Stec,
13 Walczyk, Weber and Weik.
14 Ayes, 49. Nays, 13.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
16 is passed.
17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
18 294, Senate Print 9072A, by Senator Harckham, an
19 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
20 SENATOR LANZA: Lay it aside.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Lay it
22 aside.
23 Senator Serrano, that completes the
24 reading of today's calendar.
25 SENATOR SERRANO: Let's please go
625
1 to the reading of the controversial calendar.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
3 Secretary will ring the bell.
4 The Secretary will read.
5 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
6 138, Senate Print 1329, by Senator Parker, an act
7 to amend the Public Service Law.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
9 Walczyk, why do you rise?
10 SENATOR WALCZYK: Madam President,
11 would the sponsor yield for some questions?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Will the
13 sponsor yield?
14 SENATOR PARKER: Yes,
15 Madam President.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
17 sponsor yields.
18 SENATOR WALCZYK: So in Section 2
19 of your bill it reads: The department -- meaning
20 the Department of Public Service -- shall adjust
21 each utility corporation's residential fixed
22 charges upon such corporation's filing with the
23 department of an amendment of rate schedules
24 pursuant to Article 4 of this chapter to recover
25 only the fixed charges and operation and
626
1 maintenance expenses directly related to
2 metering, billing, service connections, and the
3 provision of customer service.
4 And it's that definition that I
5 really would like to ask you about, those fixed
6 charges. Utilities can only bill for metering,
7 billing, connections, customer service,
8 et cetera, that you've lined out.
9 So are systems benefit charges
10 included in that definition?
11 SENATOR PARKER: So as you know,
12 the Democratic Conference in the State Senate has
13 really been the leader in the state around
14 utility affordability. For a number of years we
15 have really been suffering as a state,
16 particularly our constituents, with very high and
17 unexpected surges in their bills.
18 The purpose of this legislation is
19 to narrowly define what utilities can add on and
20 not create, you know, a whole bunch of extra
21 charges to make bills, you know, balloon, and us
22 to create some real deep affordability for
23 constituents around those bills.
24 So the systems benefit charge does
25 not -- is not included in these particular
627
1 charges. It's a separate charge.
2 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
3 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
4 yield?
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Will the
6 sponsor yield?
7 SENATOR PARKER: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
9 sponsor yields.
10 SENATOR WALCZYK: Are costs of
11 mandated infrastructure from the State of
12 New York included in the definition that you've
13 provided there?
14 SENATOR PARKER: It's not in the
15 definition. Usually those things are decided
16 within the context of rate cases.
17 SENATOR WALCZYK: Through you,
18 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
19 yield?
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
21 sponsor yield?
22 SENATOR PARKER: I do.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
24 sponsor yields.
25 SENATOR WALCZYK: Are customer
628
1 benefits, solar contributions, are they included
2 in the definition that you've provided?
3 SENATOR PARKER: Not that I know
4 of.
5 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
6 Madam President, will the sponsor continue to
7 yield?
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
9 sponsor yield?
10 SENATOR PARKER: Yes,
11 Madam President.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
13 sponsor yields.
14 SENATOR WALCZYK: Are state taxes
15 included in the metering, billing, connections,
16 customer service fixed charges that you've
17 outlined here in this definition?
18 SENATOR PARKER: Through you,
19 Madam President, they are not.
20 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
21 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
22 yield?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
24 sponsor yield?
25 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President, I
629
1 yield.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
3 sponsor yields.
4 SENATOR WALCZYK: Are local taxes
5 included in that definition?
6 SENATOR PARKER: Through you,
7 Madam President, local taxes are not included.
8 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
9 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
10 yield?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
12 sponsor yield?
13 SENATOR PARKER: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
15 sponsor yields.
16 SENATOR WALCZYK: Are state and
17 local surcharges included in the definition
18 you've provided here?
19 SENATOR PARKER: No, it is not.
20 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
21 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
22 yield?
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
24 sponsor yield?
25 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President, I
630
1 yield.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
3 sponsor yields.
4 SENATOR WALCZYK: Are sales taxes
5 included in that definition of metering, billing,
6 connections, customer service?
7 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President,
8 through you, they are not.
9 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
10 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
11 yield?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
13 sponsor yield?
14 SENATOR PARKER: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
16 sponsor yields.
17 SENATOR WALCZYK: Are gross
18 receipts taxes included in that definition of
19 fixed charges on someone's bill?
20 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President,
21 no.
22 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
23 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
24 yield?
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
631
1 sponsor yield?
2 SENATOR PARKER: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
4 sponsor yields.
5 SENATOR WALCZYK: What about the
6 state assessment that people see on their bill,
7 is that included in those fixed charges?
8 SENATOR PARKER: Madam President,
9 they are not.
10 SENATOR WALCZYK: Thank you.
11 Madam President, on the bill.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
13 Walczyk on the bill.
14 SENATOR WALCZYK: This bill
15 purports to reduce and -- as the sponsor said,
16 purports to reduce fixed charges on energy bills.
17 But none of the fixed charges that the state
18 mandates, making up somewhere between 30 and
19 50 percent of your bill, are even included in the
20 definition of this legislation.
21 And even if any fixed charges are,
22 utility companies will raise rates to pay for the
23 mandates through supply charges.
24 In fact, if this bill does anything
25 at all, it may actually reduce the cost for the
632
1 fixed charge that is on someone's vacation home
2 or a residence that they don't live at, nobody's
3 spending power at, or a vacant apartment building
4 that has nobody living in it whatsoever.
5 If there were any fixed charges --
6 and I tried to enumerate a number of them. I
7 couldn't think of any more because the state has
8 put so many charges on your utility bills. But
9 even if it did reduce anybody's energy bill, it
10 would be reducing them for vacant apartments and
11 vacation homes.
12 This do-nothing bill will not lower
13 the cost for New Yorkers in any type of real way,
14 and I vote no.
15 Thank you.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Are
17 there any other Senators wishing to be heard?
18 Seeing none, the debate is closed.
19 Senator Serrano.
20 SENATOR SERRANO: Upon consent,
21 we've agreed to restore this bill to the
22 noncontroversial calendar.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
24 last section.
25 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
633
1 act shall take effect immediately.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
3 roll.
4 (The Secretary called the roll.)
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
6 Martins to explain his vote.
7 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you,
8 Madam President.
9 You know, I appreciate the debate,
10 certainly appreciated the questions and the
11 answers. But there was a comment that was made
12 during the debate -- I'll be voting no,
13 Madam President. But it says "the very high and
14 unexpected surge in bills." That was said just
15 during this last debate, the very high and
16 unexpected surge in utility bills.
17 When this chamber starts to consider
18 the impact of policies on our ratepayers, on our
19 constituents, on their ability to pay for energy
20 before we pass bills -- and we have discussed
21 this. On every one of the bills, including the
22 CLCPA, we have consistently warned about the
23 impact on our ratepayers of paying for all of
24 these costs and the implementation.
25 Now, someone can say,
634
1 Madam President, that the cost of solar is less
2 than any other form. Sure, if solar is working.
3 But that doesn't take into consideration all of
4 the subsidies that have been paid, the
5 infrastructure that is required, and the costs of
6 not being able to access that when there are
7 snow-covered solar panels that don't allow for
8 the transmission of electricity, much like the
9 last few weeks here in New York.
10 I'll be voting no.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
12 Martins to be recorded in the negative.
13 Senator Harckham to explain his
14 vote.
15 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you very
16 much, Madam President. I just want to rise to
17 vote yes.
18 And I'm glad to hear my colleague
19 mention that we should be cognizant of policies
20 especially when we see that the ISO, the
21 Independent System Operator, releases a report
22 pinpointing the cost of natural gas for the surge
23 in the price of electricity.
24 I'll say that again. The
25 Independent System Operator just released a
635
1 report pointing to natural gas for the surge in
2 electrical prices. Because natural gas is no
3 longer some home-grown energy efficiency, it's
4 now an international commodity. So I wanted to
5 put that on the record.
6 I thank Senator Parker for this
7 bill. I'll be voting aye.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
9 Harckham to be recorded in the affirmative.
10 Announce the results.
11 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
12 Calendar 138, voting in the negative are
13 Senators Borrello, Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick,
14 Gallivan, Griffo, Lanza, Martins, Mattera,
15 Murray, Oberacker, O'Mara, Ortt, Rhoads, Stec,
16 Tedisco, Walczyk and Weik.
17 Ayes, 46. Nays, 16.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
19 is passed.
20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
21 235, Senate Print 4852, by Senator Skoufis, an
22 act to amend the Executive Law.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
24 Walczyk, why do you rise?
25 SENATOR WALCZYK: Madam President,
636
1 I hope the sponsor would yield for some
2 questions.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Will the
4 sponsor yield?
5 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Of course.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
7 sponsor yields.
8 SENATOR WALCZYK: What does this
9 bill do?
10 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
11 Madam President. This bill is very
12 straightforward. It requires New York's
13 Code Council to incorporate revisions, updates
14 within 18 months of revisions and updates being
15 offered by international and national code
16 standards.
17 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
18 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
19 yield.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
21 sponsor yield?
22 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
24 sponsor yields.
25 SENATOR WALCZYK: Thank you for
637
1 that.
2 The Codes Council, they already meet
3 four times a year, is that right?
4 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
5 Madam President, I take your word that that is
6 accurate. That sounds accurate. I know they
7 meet a number of times a year.
8 I will note, given I think I know
9 where you're going with this, that the most
10 recent revision of the international standards
11 took our state's Code Council five years to
12 incorporate. That's why we're taking up this
13 bill.
14 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
15 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
16 yield.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
18 sponsor yield?
19 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
21 sponsor yields.
22 SENATOR WALCZYK: They're already
23 required in statute to update the code every
24 three years, though, is that correct?
25 ("No, not correct," from counsel.)
638
1 SENATOR SKOUFIS: I think you heard
2 the answer through my microphone.
3 (Laughter.)
4 SENATOR SKOUFIS: But through you,
5 Madam President, I'm advised by counsel that that
6 is not correct.
7 SENATOR WALCZYK: Thank you for the
8 clarification.
9 Through you, Madam President, would
10 the sponsor continue to yield?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
12 sponsor yield?
13 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
15 sponsor yields.
16 SENATOR WALCZYK: And one of the
17 ASHRAE standards, that's already standard and
18 they have to update our code to comply with that
19 when it comes out already currently, is that
20 correct?
21 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
22 Madam President, that is correct.
23 If you look under -- I guess it's
24 Section B, line 47, you see that in addition to
25 that one organization, we are expanding that to a
639
1 list of three standards.
2 SENATOR WALCZYK: Through you,
3 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
4 yield.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Will the
6 sponsor yield?
7 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
9 sponsor yields.
10 SENATOR WALCZYK: Yet one of those
11 three standards is the American National
12 Standards Institute. Aren't we already more
13 stringent in our building code than the
14 American National Standards Institute?
15 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
16 Madam President. My understanding, confirmed by
17 counsel, is that -- that these standards, these
18 national or international standards, can be
19 considered as floors here in New York. And so
20 yes, it stands to reason that we may be more
21 strict than some or all of these three.
22 SENATOR WALCZYK: Through you,
23 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
24 yield.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
640
1 sponsor yield?
2 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
4 sponsor yields.
5 SENATOR WALCZYK: Why are the IESNA
6 standards included in this new requirement?
7 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
8 Madam President. What we're attempting to do
9 with this legislation is really reflect the menu
10 of options that are available to the state's
11 Code Council. That particular agency and those
12 standards are a -- a -- a very credible and
13 renowned set of standards. And so we decided to
14 add that to the set of three options.
15 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
16 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
17 yield?
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
19 sponsor yield?
20 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
22 sponsor yields.
23 SENATOR WALCZYK: Yeah, so the IES
24 is the group that gives some lighting standards
25 recommendations. In 2010, the IES changed their
641
1 name to the IES; they dropped the "North America"
2 from IESNA. But in your legislation you say the
3 IESNA standard. Is that a 16-year-old typo?
4 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
5 Madam President. We'll take that back and take a
6 look. This is a bill that dates back to at least
7 2017. And I -- we will take that back and take a
8 look.
9 SENATOR WALCZYK: Through you,
10 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
11 yield?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
13 sponsor yield?
14 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
16 sponsor yields.
17 SENATOR WALCZYK: I brought up some
18 of these concerns in the Housing Committee, where
19 that probably should have rested. It certainly
20 would have if my vote carried the day there. And
21 I hope you would continue that back, to take that
22 back.
23 Will any of the changes proposed
24 here require Codes Council to revert to a less
25 stringent code than we already have?
642
1 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
2 Madam President. The answer is no, it just
3 requires the Council to make an adoption or at
4 least a consideration of these standards.
5 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
6 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
7 yield.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
9 sponsor yield?
10 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
12 sponsor yields.
13 SENATOR WALCZYK: So how will this
14 adaptation of a new requirement with a couple of
15 additional codes and a requirement for
16 Codes Council to adopt them within 18 months, how
17 will that lower the cost of building new
18 construction, including houses, in New York
19 State?
20 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
21 Madam President. I don't know that it has any
22 meaningful bearing whether that -- these
23 standards are adopted five years later versus
24 18 months later, ideally sooner, as it relates to
25 cost.
643
1 What I am more concerned about in
2 advancing this bill is protecting your and my
3 constituents. As you know, embedded in our
4 Building Code, at the core of our Building Code,
5 are safety standards.
6 Likewise, I'm interested in
7 protecting your and my firefighters who run into
8 smoke-filled buildings and rely on code
9 enforcement and strict building codes so that
10 amidst the smoke in these houses and buildings
11 they are not bumping into walls that should not
12 exist, illegally, in especially apartment
13 buildings.
14 So that is really the reason why we
15 are looking to make sure that the standards are
16 adopted expeditiously, is to make sure that we
17 have safe construction here in New York State.
18 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
19 Madam President, will the sponsor continue to
20 yield.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
22 sponsor yield?
23 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
25 sponsor yields.
644
1 SENATOR WALCZYK: How -- you know,
2 and I appreciate your wanting safety. As we
3 already pointed out in this debate, our code is
4 already more stringent than all of these codes,
5 including the additional codes that you're
6 bringing in.
7 But I'm curious how lighting
8 standards would make it more safe for a
9 firefighter if you're using the Illuminating
10 Engineering Society of North America, which would
11 be a code that's 16 years old.
12 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
13 Madam President. A couple of things.
14 First, certainly in addition to
15 safety standards within our Building Code, there
16 are plenty of standards that speak to efficiency
17 and other factors in construction. And so it's
18 not an either/or; they all exist.
19 As far as lighting, I think if you
20 were to ask most of your firefighters and most of
21 your fire departments, they would absolutely tell
22 you that lighting is a safety matter. And making
23 sure that there is efficient and -- I should say
24 sufficient lighting within our buildings here in
25 New York State absolutely is relevant to safety,
645
1 in addition to efficiency, energy efficiency.
2 SENATOR WALCZYK: Through you,
3 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
4 yield.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
6 sponsor yield?
7 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
9 sponsor yields.
10 SENATOR WALCZYK: Yeah, I'm not
11 sure the 16-year-old code and whether the
12 LED light bulbs versus an incandescent would
13 really make a difference when we're talking about
14 lighting standards and our standard already being
15 more stringent than that.
16 But I did want to point to a section
17 of your bill on page 2. From the top, you talk
18 about the State Climate Leadership and Community
19 Protection Act: "The Legislature hereby directs
20 that a State Energy Conservation Construction
21 Code be adopted to protect the health, safety and
22 security of the people of this state and to
23 assure a continuing supply of energy for future
24 generations, and that such code mandate that
25 economically reasonable energy conservation
646
1 techniques be used in the design and construction
2 of all public and private buildings in the
3 state."
4 And that is true now in law, except
5 for two lines. You have added in the state's
6 "Climate Leadership and Community Protection
7 Act," and you have removed in this bill that
8 anything be "economically" reasonable. Why is
9 the -- why is the word "economically" removed
10 from statute in your proposal here today?
11 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Madam President,
12 I'd like to first note this is the fourth time --
13 assuming it does pass after this debate, this is
14 the fourth time this bill will have passed this
15 chamber.
16 I know that my colleague is a
17 voracious reader of these bills and voracious
18 debater, and this has never been brought up
19 before? And so I question, what took you so long
20 to have this conversation?
21 Nevertheless, I'm happy to answer
22 the question. The CLCPA, in the statute, in the
23 Scoping Plan section of the CLCPA statute, it
24 already requires that the Code Council consider
25 the CLCPA. This is an incidental update to the
647
1 statute. This is an incidental change --
2 basically, a codification of what already exists.
3 And similarly, the deletion of
4 "economically" is incidental. If you look
5 several lines down, lines 14 through 19, this is
6 one of a number of examples where the Code
7 Council shall -- they must -- consider cost
8 effectiveness among other considerations.
9 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
10 Madam President, would the sponsor continue to
11 yield.
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
13 sponsor yield?
14 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
16 sponsor yields.
17 SENATOR WALCZYK: Yeah, the same
18 question I would ask back again: Why
19 specifically did you remove "economically
20 reasonable" from what the code should be
21 considering, the Codes Council should be
22 considering?
23 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
24 Madam President. Whether that word is there or
25 not does not have any impact as to the Council's
648
1 discretion and ability to consider cost
2 effectiveness. It's an incidental change, as I
3 noted before.
4 SENATOR WALCZYK: And through you,
5 Madam President. Would the sponsor continue to
6 yield?
7 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
8 sponsor yield?
9 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
11 sponsor yields.
12 SENATOR WALCZYK: Yeah, it's pretty
13 glaring. And on my sheet of paper it is -- it's
14 struck out and highlighted in red,
15 "economically." If it's incidental, then why
16 even remove that?
17 What this suggests to me -- and this
18 is why I ask it -- is people are very concerned
19 about the cost of energy and the feasibility in
20 paying for all of the mandates under New York's
21 CLCPA.
22 And what you've taken here is a
23 couple of code changes that seem semi -- maybe
24 not even relevant whatsoever to the State of
25 New York and you've subbed in, in a little line,
649
1 New York CLCPA and the Codes Council will, within
2 18 months, publish a new code under the CLCPA
3 without considering how much this is going to
4 cost.
5 So I say again, why would you remove
6 "economically reasonable"? How unreasonable
7 should the housing costs and construction costs
8 be in New York State?
9 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Through you,
10 Madam President. Most of that commentary is not
11 germane to this bill.
12 You answered -- or, rather, you
13 asked several questions that are not germane to
14 this bill, and I have answered the -- I believe
15 the core of your question. I'll answer it for a
16 third time, which is that, again, despite or in
17 light of striking that word or not, there is no
18 impact whatsoever as to whether the Council can
19 maintain its discretion and ability to consider
20 cost effectiveness.
21 And again, I will point you to
22 lines 14 through 19, literally just several lines
23 under the word in question we're talking about.
24 As far as whether the public looks
25 at this bill language or not -- and I suspect
650
1 that there aren't too many people of the
2 19.5 million who will examine this markup that we
3 are examining here. But to the extent that
4 people have concern about that line being struck,
5 even though it has no relevance to the Council's
6 ability to consider cost-effectiveness, they will
7 have that concern because elected officials like
8 yourself will try and -- despite the facts,
9 despite my answers -- go onto social media and
10 cause a firestorm of craziness with
11 misinformation and untruths.
12 And we've seen that even in just
13 recent weeks on your social media page, where you
14 talk about hostile amendments and, you know, give
15 people all sorts of ideas and grief and
16 misconstrue what happens on this floor.
17 To the extent anyone is going to be
18 concerned about this word that has no impact or
19 relevance whatsoever on the Council's discretion,
20 it is because you will mislead them and convince
21 them otherwise.
22 SENATOR WALCZYK: Through you,
23 Madam President, would the sponsor yield.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
25 sponsor yield?
651
1 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
3 sponsor yields.
4 SENATOR WALCZYK: Well, you could
5 have just called me a liar --
6 (Laughter.)
7 SENATOR WALCZYK: -- but I didn't
8 write this bill. And I didn't remove -- I didn't
9 bring a bill into this chamber, ignore the
10 suggestions that were given in the
11 Housing Committee, and bring a bill into this
12 chamber that removes "economically reasonable."
13 You might call that a lie, but you
14 wrote the bill. Misinformation, disinformation,
15 you wrote this bill. You sponsored it. You
16 brought it into this chamber.
17 And what it means, by your own
18 admission here today, is that you're taking the
19 CLCPA, you're bringing that to the Codes Council,
20 you're forcing them to redo the code on a faster
21 timeline. You've removed the --
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Excuse
23 me, Senator. Could you not address the Senator,
24 either of you. Could you address the chair. Not
25 "you."
652
1 SENATOR WALCZYK: Sure, yeah. On
2 the bill, Madam President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
4 Walczyk on the bill.
5 SENATOR WALCZYK: Let me try and be
6 informative with misinformation.
7 The problem is it's too costly in
8 New York State. We have a robust code. Our
9 Code Council meets four times a year. We take
10 international building standards, we go above and
11 beyond them. Bringing in lighting standards from
12 2010 and pretending like that's going to make the
13 life safer for firefighters is not going to
14 change a thing in New York State. Bringing in
15 the Climate Leadership and Community Protection
16 Act and then removing "economically reasonable"
17 from the Codes Council when they consider changes
18 to New York State Building Code, that has an
19 impact on everyday New Yorkers.
20 I know why it's done. We still
21 don't know how much it's going to cost to have
22 the CLCPA fully implemented in New York State.
23 The Comptroller a year and a half ago said
24 $340 billion. Well, we're just ripping the lid
25 off and saying even if it's economically
653
1 unreasonable, the Codes Council still has to do
2 it.
3 So as we have a housing shortage in
4 New York State -- housing gets more expensive
5 when you pass bills like this. I'll be voting no
6 and encourage my colleagues to do the same.
7 Thank you.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Are
9 there any other Senators wishing to be heard?
10 Seeing none, the debate is closed.
11 Senator Serrano.
12 SENATOR SERRANO: Upon consent,
13 we've agreed to restore this bill to the
14 noncontroversial calendar.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
16 last section.
17 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This
18 act shall take effect immediately.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
20 roll.
21 (The Secretary called the roll.)
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
23 Skoufis to explain his vote.
24 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Thank you,
25 Madam President.
654
1 I always appreciate debate. I
2 appreciate inquisitive questions and the
3 back-and-forth. But in this instance I fail to
4 understand why questions are asked if you're just
5 going to ignore the answers.
6 I stated literally at least three if
7 not four times that what my colleague just
8 remarked upon multiple times is just patently,
9 factually, evidentiarily not true. And yet I
10 imagine this will be a clip on a social media
11 page in the coming days and he will somehow --
12 and I'm not going to use the L word, but he will
13 misconstrue, he will misinform his own
14 constituents.
15 The reason why we're passing this
16 bill is very straightforward. We are requiring
17 the Code Council to adopt --
18 SENATOR LANZA: Madam President.
19 Madam President.
20 SENATOR SKOUFIS: -- to adopt
21 national and international standards in a timely
22 manner.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD:
24 Senator -- Senator Skoufis.
25 SENATOR SKOUFIS: Everything we
655
1 just heard a moment ago has nothing to do with
2 this bill.
3 Thank you. I vote yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
5 Skoufis to be recorded in the affirmative.
6 Senator Lanza.
7 SENATOR LANZA: It would -- it
8 would be nice if we can keep the personalities
9 out of the debate on this floor as best we can.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Thank
11 you, Senator. I did ask our colleagues to do
12 that. Not one, I did I say both, and I pointed
13 to both. Thank you.
14 Announce the results.
15 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
16 Calendar 235, voting in the negative are
17 Senators Ashby, Borrello, Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick,
18 Chan, Griffo, Helming, Lanza, Martins, Mattera,
19 Murray, Oberacker, O'Mara, Ortt, Palumbo, Rhoads,
20 Stec, Tedisco, Walczyk, Weber and Weik.
21 Ayes, 42. Nays, 20.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
23 is passed.
24 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
25 266, Senate Print 9073A, by Senator Harckham, an
656
1 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
3 Stec, why do you rise?
4 SENATOR STEC: If my friend and
5 colleague Senator Harckham would please yield for
6 a few polite questions.
7 (Laughter.)
8 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Madam President,
9 for my friend Senator Stec --
10 (Laughter.)
11 SENATOR HARCKHAM: -- I absolutely
12 look forward to a few friendly questions.
13 SENATOR STEC: Thank you.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Thank
15 you, Senators. Can we keep it cordial.
16 Thank you.
17 SENATOR STEC: Thank you. If the
18 sponsor would please yield.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
20 sponsor yields.
21 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Absolutely,
22 Madam President.
23 SENATOR STEC: Thank you,
24 Madam President.
25 What is wrong with this bill?
657
1 (Laughter.)
2 SENATOR STEC: No, I'm just
3 kidding.
4 (Laughter.)
5 SENATOR STEC: Just kidding.
6 There's no reason this can't be a little fun.
7 In all seriousness, if the sponsor
8 would yield for a few questions.
9 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Absolutely.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
11 sponsor yields.
12 SENATOR STEC: Thank you all.
13 Senator, PFAS is something that
14 certainly this state and every other state in the
15 country has been trying to wrestle with and make
16 improvements on, so I understand where you're
17 coming from with your intent on the bill.
18 I'm sure this will come as no
19 surprise to you: A lot of opposition memos and
20 concerns specifically about the effect that it's
21 going to have on cookware. And I know you've
22 talked to -- you're aware of those, and I believe
23 the -- I think the PFAS Action Network has spoken
24 with you, asked you about conforming the
25 definition in your bill to be -- to conform with
658
1 the EPA standards under the Biden administration
2 that are still in effect, to make it more
3 manageable.
4 And they point to other states and
5 jurisdictions that have had some issues with it
6 and have gone there and also pulled back.
7 Are you willing to consider
8 something similar to that?
9 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Well, thank you,
10 Madam President. Thank you to the Senator for
11 the question.
12 You know, we as states are -- cannot
13 pass legislation weaker than the federal
14 government, but we can stronger. And that was
15 the original author's intent -- remember, this
16 legislation was carried by a former colleague,
17 Senator Hoylman-Sigal, for a while, and I'm proud
18 to pick it up -- is that we wanted to have the
19 strongest protection for New Yorkers as we can,
20 particularly as we see the federal government has
21 weakened PFAS regulation in other areas and has
22 weakened other environmental regulations that we
23 wanted to set the bar in a high fashion. And
24 that we wanted to include cookware. You remember
25 the first -- the first version did not.
659
1 Part of that was because there was
2 litigation in Minnesota. And we saw that
3 litigation dismissed, so that was no longer a
4 concern.
5 SENATOR STEC: Thank you. If the
6 sponsor would continue to yield.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
8 sponsor yield?
9 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Absolutely.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
11 sponsor yields.
12 SENATOR STEC: Thank you, Senator.
13 So a series of questions I just want
14 to ask here along -- to show a train of thought
15 here.
16 You're aware that multiple major
17 health and regulatory authorities, including the
18 FDA, the American Cancer Society, the German
19 Federal Institute for Risk Assessment, have
20 repeatedly evaluated these chemicals with the
21 non-stick coatings and publicly concluded they
22 are safe for intended use in cookware and for
23 food contact applications. You're aware of that?
24 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
25 Madam President, I am.
660
1 And for every organization that says
2 they're safe, there are other organizations that
3 say they're not safe. There are studies that
4 show when -- when Teflon is heated just as low as
5 350 degrees, it becomes a threat to transmit PFAS
6 to food that's being cooked. Also that it
7 vaporizes, gets into the air.
8 And so, you know, we take very
9 seriously that PFAS -- the NIH estimates that
10 annually PFAS costs our healthcare system between
11 37 billion and 59 billion dollars. And what we
12 are also seeing, from places like Hoosick Falls
13 in New York and places all over New York State
14 that now have to invest tens of millions of
15 dollars to remediate PFAS from our drinking water
16 system, is that rather than, you know, include
17 PFAS in consumer products and then fight to
18 justify it's safe, we need to stop including it
19 in the production cycle in the first place to
20 keep it out of our water supply when there are
21 perfectly fine alternatives like stainless steel,
22 ceramic, and cast iron, just to name three.
23 SENATOR STEC: Thank you.
24 If the sponsor would continue to
25 yield.
661
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
2 sponsor yield?
3 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Absolutely.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
5 sponsor yields.
6 SENATOR STEC: Thank you.
7 So are you aware that several
8 jurisdictions have recently decided to exclude
9 fluoropolymers or non-stick cookware applications
10 from proposed bans or restrictions, and these
11 include some cowboy anti-health jurisdictions
12 like California, New Mexico, Vermont, Canada,
13 France and Illinois?
14 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
15 Madam President, I am aware of that.
16 But there are also Colorado,
17 Connecticut, Maine, Minnesota, Rhode Island and
18 Vermont that now have included cookware.
19 So there is a growing body of
20 states -- more states are banning it than those
21 who are choosing not to.
22 SENATOR STEC: Will the sponsor
23 continue to yield?
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Will the
25 sponsor yield?
662
1 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes,
2 Madam President.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
4 sponsor yields.
5 SENATOR STEC: Thank you.
6 There's one specific concern that
7 was brought up under the bill here. Starting
8 next year, on the cookware PFAS, cookware appears
9 to be defined as "refers to durable items used in
10 homes, restaurants, institutional settings, and
11 commercial kitchens for preparing, dispensing or
12 storing food, foodstuffs or beverages. These
13 items are designated for indoor and outdoor use
14 and include pots, pans, skillets, grills, baking
15 sheets, molds, trays, bowls, camping gear and
16 cooking utensils."
17 And there's concern with the
18 language of "and include" because it certainly
19 suggests or raises concern about this isn't an
20 exclusive list but the list is beyond what's
21 listed there.
22 So are you -- are you -- do you
23 share -- how would you address those that are
24 concerned that -- that the language that says
25 "and include" doesn't exclude others?
663
1 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
2 Madam President, let me just confer with counsel,
3 and quick -- a quick sec and we'll get you
4 answers.
5 SENATOR STEC: Okay, thank you.
6 (Pause.)
7 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you.
8 Through you, Madam President. Thank you for the
9 question, Senator.
10 We're -- it's not just the -- the
11 actual cookware itself. We're also thinking in
12 terms of the production, the disposal, and the
13 end of life cycle.
14 And again, the goal is to -- to
15 eliminate PFAS from the broadest spectrum of
16 categories that we can, because it's not just the
17 PFAS on the product, it's in the production and
18 it's also in the end of life cycle when we're
19 talking about landfill leachate and leaking into
20 our aquifers and fragile drinking water systems.
21 And again, we -- we talk about
22 Hoosick Falls, with the two settlements combined,
23 it was over $92 million. And we -- we see
24 municipalities all across the state spending
25 millions of dollars to remediate PFAS of
664
1 different sorts in public drinking water. And
2 whether that's from the production side or the
3 end of life cycle side.
4 And, you know, then we -- we look
5 at, you know, some other examples. New Jersey
6 just settled with DuPont for $2 billion. So this
7 is not good for the businesses, and it's not good
8 for our municipalities.
9 SENATOR STEC: On the bill,
10 Madam President.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
12 Stec on the bill.
13 SENATOR STEC: I thank the Senator
14 for answering the questions.
15 To just circle back, the "and
16 include" language raises concerns about what
17 products would be incorporated into this ban. It
18 could potentially include any product in the
19 kitchen, including several major appliances such
20 as your microwave, your stove and your
21 refrigerator.
22 Again, I don't doubt the -- the
23 sponsor's intent here to try to -- to address
24 something. I do question the precision of the
25 language, the unintended consequences that I've
665
1 pointed out, the numerous other states that again
2 are inclined to head down this path and have
3 started down this path and have found that for a
4 variety of reasons it's unmanageable, that you're
5 talking about potentially 15,000 different
6 compounds that we would try to manage.
7 And, frankly, having every state do
8 its own thing and requiring manufacturers to --
9 to try to make a product that's going to be
10 saleable in New York State and then another one
11 that's -- that can be sold in Illinois and
12 another one that can be sold in Texas.
13 You know, I question the wisdom of
14 the economics of that, the science. It seems
15 like, once again, New York has identified an
16 issue and has gone far -- far farther than need
17 be to try to get ahold of something when, again,
18 we can benefit from the experience of other
19 states, other jurisdictions, other countries.
20 I don't know that the EPA has a
21 reputation -- or certainly the American Cancer
22 Society has a reputation for being cavalier on
23 public health. But, you know, they have
24 expressed concerns with overly applying, you
25 know, a ban to apply to all cookware.
666
1 There's debate as to whether these
2 alternatives are truly alternatives. You know,
3 certainly tried and true technology, but not the
4 same as the cookware that we're talking about
5 here.
6 I think that the bill just goes too
7 far. It's not the first time that I think I've
8 seen this in Albany. And I will be voting no and
9 encourage my colleagues to do the same until ours
10 is a little more in line with what the federal
11 government and other states are doing as far as
12 the definition.
13 Thank you.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Thank
15 you, Senator.
16 Are there any other Senators wishing
17 to be heard?
18 Seeing and hearing none, debate is
19 closed.
20 Senator Serrano.
21 SENATOR SERRANO: Upon consent,
22 we've agreed to restore this bill to the
23 noncontroversial calendar.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
25 last section.
667
1 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
2 act shall take effect January 1, 2028.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
4 roll.
5 (The Secretary called the roll.)
6 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
7 Harckham to explain his vote.
8 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you very
9 much, Madam President.
10 And I just want to assure you that I
11 was being sincere, and so was Senator Stec, at
12 the beginning when we said we would have a
13 cheerful debate. I have nothing but the highest
14 regard for Senator Stec and always appreciate a
15 good vigorous debate.
16 But I think it is so important that
17 not a day goes by where we don't learn more about
18 the dangers of PFAS. And as counsel mentioned to
19 me in the midst of the debate and reminded me
20 that it's not just about the product itself, it's
21 the production cycle, it's the product, and it's
22 the end of life cycle. And we need to think
23 broadly about that as it costs our municipalities
24 tens of millions of dollars a year. And
25 according to the NIH, it's costing us anywhere
668
1 from -- close to $59 billion annually in
2 healthcare costs. You know, the dangers from
3 PFAS are real.
4 And so I understand there is a
5 reluctance to take a broad approach, and some
6 want to take a more incremental approach. But I
7 would argue as New York goes, so goes the rest of
8 the nation.
9 We're proud of this bill. We want
10 to thank former Senator Hoylman-Sigal, now the
11 Manhattan Borough president, for his work on the
12 bill. And I'm proudly voting aye.
13 Thank you.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
15 Harckham to be recorded in the affirmative.
16 Senator May to explain her vote.
17 SENATOR MAY: I want to thank
18 Senator Harckham for this bill.
19 Earlier today we passed my bill
20 about measuring and reporting PFAS emissions into
21 our waterways from -- from industrial and waste
22 management sources. And the only reason we need
23 that is because PFAS is getting into the
24 environment upstream through products that are
25 being sold in the stores and through the way we
669
1 use those products in our lives.
2 Almost -- pretty much everyone in
3 this room has got PFAS in our bodies, in our
4 organs. It's found in mother's milk. We need to
5 get these products out of our stores. And I as a
6 cook and a mom, I want to know that I'm using
7 products when I'm cooking that are free of PFAS
8 so that I'm not poisoning my family.
9 We're not talking about taking
10 anyone's cookware away, we're just talking about
11 making sure that what's being sold going forward
12 is safe. And I think that is our job. I am
13 proud that we're voting for this.
14 I again thank Senator Harckham for
15 this bill, and I vote aye.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
17 May to be recorded in the affirmative.
18 Announce the results.
19 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
20 Calendar 266, voting in the negative are
21 Senators Chan, Griffo, Lanza, Oberacker, Ortt,
22 Rhoads, Stec, Walczyk and Weik. Also
23 Senator Tedisco.
24 Ayes, 52. Nays, 10.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
670
1 is passed.
2 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
3 282, Senate Print 353, by Senator Rivera, an act
4 to amend the Public Health Law.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
6 Lanza, why do you rise?
7 SENATOR LANZA: Madam President, I
8 believe there's an amendment at the desk. I
9 waive the reading of that amendment and ask that
10 you recognize Senator Borrello.
11 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Thank
12 you, Senator Lanza.
13 Upon review of the amendment, in
14 accordance with Rule 6, Section 4B, I rule it
15 nongermane and out of order.
16 SENATOR LANZA: Accordingly,
17 Madam President, I appeal the ruling of the chair
18 and ask that Senator Borrello be heard on the
19 appeal.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Thank
21 you, Senator. The appeal has been made and
22 recognized, and Senator Borrello may be heard.
23 SENATOR BORRELLO: Thank you,
24 Madam President. Well, I'm hoping that my words
25 here today, combined with this suit that I'm
671
1 wearing, will convince you that this bill is
2 indeed germane to the bill-in-chief.
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Nice
4 suit.
5 (Laughter.)
6 SENATOR BORRELLO: Thank you.
7 (Laughter.)
8 SENATOR BORRELLO: So today we're
9 here to talk about this bill that is about having
10 the Senate approve the Medicaid director, which I
11 think is a good idea. I think this chamber
12 should absolutely be approving someone who has
13 control of what is now approaching nearly half of
14 New York State's budget.
15 That's right. Right now, Medicaid
16 accounts for $115 billion of a $260 billion
17 budget proposal.
18 So what our bill actually calls for,
19 this amendment, is for us to qualify and ensure
20 that the people that are getting Medicaid
21 benefits actually exist and are qualified.
22 And also we need to do a
23 comprehensive audit. Medicaid has gotten out of
24 control here in New York State, and it's costing
25 New York State taxpayers literally billions of
672
1 dollars.
2 On top of that, it's estimated by
3 the Empire Center that only about 5.5 million
4 New Yorkers actually qualify for Medicaid. Yet
5 8.5 million New Yorkers actually receive
6 Medicaid. That's a 3 million delta there.
7 On top of that, our
8 Medicaid Director has refused a FOIL request,
9 fully. It took nine months for the Empire Center
10 to get an answer from the Department of Medicaid
11 on whether or not everyone's qualified that's
12 actually receiving benefits.
13 And the last million people he -- he
14 refused to actually identify are qualified and
15 are actually eligible for Medicaid. It's called
16 the Medicaid Missing Million report. You should
17 look it up. A million people. If each one of
18 those million cost us just $10,000 a year, that's
19 $10 billion.
20 Addressing that alone, and finding
21 that fraud -- if it is indeed fraud -- would
22 actually eliminate all of the money that we are
23 losing from federal government. I know that's a
24 big topic for the Governor, all this money the
25 federal government's cutting back. That's
673
1 because they don't want to continue to support
2 the fraud, waste and abuse in New York State's
3 Medicaid system.
4 So we need to do this. We need to
5 do a forensic audit of our Medicaid system. We
6 need to verify that everybody that's actually
7 receiving benefits actually is qualified. And by
8 the way, I would imagine that a lot of those
9 folks are not people that aren't qualified,
10 they've actually fraudulently submitted service
11 requests.
12 In other words, providers,
13 healthcare providers who are fraudulently
14 submitting payments and are getting -- receiving
15 payments for fraudulent work that was never
16 provided. That's probably a couple of
17 billion dollars a year right there alone.
18 We need to do this now. It is
19 unbelievable that it has swelled as much as it
20 has. It is now nearly half of New York State's
21 budget, Medicaid alone. If any part of our
22 budget needs to be evaluated and cleaned up, it's
23 Medicaid.
24 And that's why this amendment to
25 this bill is germane and needs to be done as soon
674
1 as possible. The taxpayers of New York deserve
2 transparency, honesty and to restore integrity to
3 the most expensive system in New York State and
4 the most expensive system in United States of
5 America: New York State's bloated and fraudulent
6 Medicaid system.
7 Thank you, Madam President.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Thank
9 you, Senator.
10 I want to remind the house that the
11 vote is on the procedures of the house and the
12 ruling of the chair.
13 Those in favor of overruling the
14 chair, signify by saying aye.
15 (Response of "Aye.")
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
17 Lanza?
18 SENATOR LANZA: Request a show of
19 hands.
20 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: A show
21 of hands has been requested and so ordered.
22 Announce the results.
23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 22.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
25 ruling of the chair stands, and the bill-in-chief
675
1 is before the house.
2 Senator Serrano.
3 SENATOR SERRANO: Upon consent,
4 we've agreed to restore this bill to the
5 noncontroversial calendar.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
7 last section.
8 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This
9 act shall take effect on the first of January.
10 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
11 roll.
12 (The Secretary called the roll.)
13 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
14 the results.
15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 62.
16 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
17 is passed.
18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number
19 294, Senate Print 9072A, by Senator Harckham, an
20 act to amend the Environmental Conservation Law.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
22 Murray, why do you rise?
23 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
24 Madam President. Would the sponsor yield for
25 some friendly and hopefully informative
676
1 questions?
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Will the
3 sponsor yield?
4 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
5 Madam President, for my friend Senator Murray,
6 anything.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
8 sponsor yields.
9 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
10 Madam President, Senator.
11 Senator, I just want to kind of
12 cover who is covered under this bill and how they
13 are covered. So let's start with the who.
14 If I gave you an example of two
15 companies -- one is a concrete-crushing company
16 that makes $999 million in revenue; the other, a
17 solar panel manufacturing company that makes
18 1.5 billion -- which of those two or would they
19 both be covered under this bill?
20 SENATOR HARCKHAM: It depends. If
21 the concrete manufacturer has net worldwide sales
22 less than a billion dollars and -- and they're
23 less than -- or they're less than -- yeah,
24 they're less than a billion dollars, then they're
25 just not included. No one under a
677
1 billion dollars is included.
2 The solar panel company must also,
3 in addition to the billion-dollar threshold, must
4 have at least a million dollars in direct
5 revenues in New York State. So if they operate
6 in New Jersey or Connecticut but have no
7 operations in New York, they would not fall under
8 the guidelines of this bill.
9 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
10 Madam President, would the sponsor
11 continue to yield?
12 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
13 sponsor yield?
14 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Absolutely.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
16 sponsor yields.
17 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
18 So on the -- on the bill language,
19 I'm looking at Section 74-0101, under
20 "Definitions." That would be Section 3, line 21:
21 "'Scope 1 emissions' means all direct greenhouse
22 gas emissions that stem from sources that a
23 reporting entity owns or directly controls,
24 regardless of location, including, but not
25 limited to, fuel combustion activities."
678
1 The next section, line 25, "'Scope 2
2 emissions' means indirect greenhouse gas
3 emissions from consumed electricity, steam,
4 heating or cooling purchased or acquired by a
5 reporting entity, regardless of location."
6 So I'll go back to my example. We
7 have the concrete-crushing company that's located
8 in Albany, and again, their revenue is under a
9 billion, so they're not covered. It doesn't
10 matter.
11 But the solar panel company
12 manufacturing company now say they're
13 manufacturing in Florida but they have a
14 distribution center here in New York. And their
15 revenue, as we said, was over -- over a
16 billion dollars. And yes, 1 percent of that is
17 generated here in New York.
18 Does that qualify under this bill?
19 Would they still -- would both entities -- would
20 both sections have to report under this bill?
21 SENATOR HARCKHAM: They would,
22 because we're talking about global emissions.
23 Right? Because we understand emissions don't
24 recognize state borders. This is a global or a
25 planetary issue, and that's why they -- they
679
1 would qualify.
2 SENATOR MURRAY: Madam President,
3 would the sponsor continue to yield.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
5 sponsor yield?
6 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes.
7 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
8 sponsor yields.
9 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
10 And I think you covered it under
11 that answer, but I'm going to ask it to get it on
12 the record anyway. We're going to use that same
13 example, but the solar panel company is
14 manufacturing now in China, but they have a
15 distribution center here in New York with
16 1 percent of their revenue coming from New York.
17 Still required to report both
18 New York and China?
19 SENATOR HARCKHAM: They are.
20 And it's a good question because
21 the -- a lot of the companies that are covered
22 under this are multinationals. I would say not
23 all of them. But -- but, you know, when you're
24 talking companies over a billion dollars, you
25 know, a lot of those are multinational.
680
1 So those are covered, for instance,
2 in the EU. And the EU actually goes a step
3 further and requires a qualitative climate change
4 analysis in addition to those emissions which are
5 billed as not due.
6 Our bill is really to get public
7 transparency so that consumers can make educated
8 decisions from the companies that they patronize,
9 and that institutional investors who have a
10 certain social investing filter can also make
11 those qualified and educated decisions.
12 And because the EU and now
13 California are doing this, and many institutional
14 investors -- the pension funds, as I mentioned
15 before, who have a social screen on their
16 investment, are requiring many of the large
17 companies to do this anyhow.
18 And so a lot of the companies are
19 doing this. We are just saying we need you to
20 report in New York. And those who are not yet
21 doing this, we add them to the list.
22 SENATOR MURRAY: Madam President,
23 would the sponsor continue to yield.
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
25 sponsor yield?
681
1 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes.
2 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
3 sponsor yields.
4 SENATOR MURRAY: And thank you for
5 that answer.
6 Now, if this same company -- we'll
7 stick with the solar panel manufacturing company,
8 if they fail to report emissions that occur
9 outside of New York, can they be punished under
10 this bill? And how would they be punished?
11 (Pause.)
12 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
13 Madam President. Yes, they -- they would be.
14 For -- for the reason that we mentioned before,
15 that this is a global issue and it's also a
16 transparency issue for consumers and investors
17 here in New York. So they would be.
18 But I should also note that under
19 "Scope 3 emissions," number one, there's a year
20 lag in the reporting. And then the penalties
21 would -- for Scope 3 would not take effect until
22 2032, assuming that the bill is passed this year.
23 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
24 Madam President, would the sponsor
25 continue to yield.
682
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
2 sponsor yield?
3 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes.
4 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
5 sponsor yields.
6 SENATOR MURRAY: Since we're on the
7 scenario, I'm going to bring that company out of
8 China and back to the United States. So they're
9 going to be manufacturing in Florida for the --
10 SENATOR HARCKHAM: We like that.
11 We want to bring those Chinese companies to the
12 United States.
13 SENATOR MURRAY: We like the
14 manufacturing part. I don't know about the
15 penalizing them.
16 But -- so them being in Florida,
17 does New York have the right to regulate
18 interstate commerce? Isn't that what we're doing
19 here?
20 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Well, through
21 you, Madam President -- through you,
22 Madam President, as I thought, this was a
23 contested issue in the California litigation, and
24 the courts dismissed this.
25 So there were three -- three
683
1 different allegations brought in the California
2 lawsuit. Two of them were dismissed, and this
3 was one of them.
4 SENATOR MURRAY: Madam President,
5 would the sponsor continue to yield.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
7 sponsor yield?
8 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
10 sponsor yields.
11 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
12 Now, that's the California bill.
13 I'd like to discuss this bill and -- and go back
14 to the original question, which is aren't we
15 regulating interstate commerce with this bill?
16 If we're going to penalize Florida
17 and New York -- say, for example, under this
18 situation, this solar panel manufacturing
19 company, their main headquarters is Florida,
20 that's where they do most of the business, but
21 they have a distribution center in New York that
22 generates 1 percent or more in revenue, but their
23 main headquarters is Florida. We're still
24 punishing a Florida company. New York is doing
25 this.
684
1 Isn't that exactly what regulating
2 interstate commerce is?
3 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
4 Madam President. No, because they're doing
5 business in New York. And this is designed to
6 protect New York consumers and New York investors
7 so that New Yorkers can make qualified decisions.
8 SENATOR MURRAY: Madam President,
9 would the sponsor continue to yield?
10 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
11 sponsor yield?
12 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes.
13 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
14 sponsor yields.
15 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
16 And, Senator, you had mentioned that
17 it is a global problem, that pollution or such is
18 a global problem, a national problem.
19 But again, I go back to aren't we --
20 then aren't we, through this legislation --
21 isn't -- wouldn't this be considered national
22 legislation or federal?
23 This -- this is exactly what the
24 definition of regulating interstate commerce
25 would be, if we are -- if we are passing laws
685
1 that will govern another state and the commerce
2 between the states.
3 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
4 Madam President. We are not governing another
5 state, we are -- we are not punishing other
6 states. We are asking for transparency for
7 New York consumers and New York investors to make
8 educated decisions.
9 SENATOR MURRAY: Madam President,
10 will the sponsor continue to yield?
11 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
12 sponsor yield?
13 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
15 sponsor yields.
16 SENATOR MURRAY: So I'm going to go
17 with the -- California. Now, when California
18 introduced theirs, they had given us an estimate
19 that about 4,000 companies would be required to
20 report.
21 Do we have an estimate as to how
22 many companies would be affected by this bill?
23 (Pause.)
24 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
25 Madam President, we don't have that exact number.
686
1 What we can say is that a number of
2 the companies will be the same. There will be a
3 lot of overlap.
4 The other thing we should say is
5 that these are huge companies that have the
6 ability and the wherewithal to comply with this,
7 Madam President. These are not your
8 mom-and-pops. These are not even, you know, your
9 regional companies. You know, with a billion
10 dollars in revenue, you know, this is a sizable,
11 sizable company.
12 SENATOR MURRAY: Madam President,
13 would the sponsor continue to yield.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
15 sponsor yield?
16 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Absolutely.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
18 sponsor yields.
19 SENATOR MURRAY: So I do want to
20 talk about the penalty aspect of it. And yes, I
21 understand we're reaching larger companies
22 with -- with deeper pockets. But the bill has
23 civil penalties for willful violation, including
24 nonfiling, late filing, or any other compliance
25 issues, of up to $100,000 per day, up to 500,000
687
1 per filing year.
2 Why are these penalties so high?
3 And won't that have an impact on these very
4 consumers we're talking about?
5 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
6 Madam President. Number one, as we said, many
7 companies are already complying with this --
8 either through the EU, or will be -- in
9 California.
10 There are software packages that
11 help companies comply with this. This is not the
12 heavy lift it might have been 10 years ago.
13 And so the reason the penalties are
14 so high is when you're talking about a pension
15 fund who is going to be investing billions of
16 dollars in a company, based on a certain value
17 set, they have a right to have true transparency.
18 You know, unfortunately, what we
19 have seen far too often is many companies make
20 grandiose but unfortunately not always true
21 statements about their commitments to
22 sustainability.
23 And so the statement sounds great,
24 but then when you look under the hood, you know,
25 either they're not complying with what they're
688
1 doing or they're backtracking. Some would call
2 that greenwashing. I would like to, you know,
3 give some companies the benefit of the doubt on
4 that.
5 But this is -- this is about
6 protecting, you know, investors who are investing
7 in some cases billions of dollars in these
8 companies on a value proposition or what's called
9 a social screen, and they should have the
10 transparency, as do New York consumers, to know
11 that the company that -- that they're buying
12 products from is indeed who they say they are.
13 SENATOR MURRAY: Madam President,
14 would the sponsor continue to yield.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
16 sponsor yield?
17 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Absolutely.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
19 sponsor yields.
20 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
21 And I just have one more kind of a
22 technical question. New York State DEC just
23 finalized its Part 253 GHG reporting rule. How
24 do the reports under this bill compare to those
25 under Part 253?
689
1 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you,
2 Madam President. Thank you for that question.
3 There will be a little overlap, but
4 not always exclusively overlap. Because we're --
5 you know, that is really on local emitters. And
6 some of those folks are not going to have a
7 billion in revenue. Or -- or they will, and they
8 will comply with both.
9 But -- but we don't expect there
10 will be a huge amount of crossover because,
11 again, we're talking about, you know, the
12 multinational corporations in many cases.
13 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you.
14 Madam President, on the bill.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
16 Murray on the bill.
17 SENATOR MURRAY: Thank you,
18 Senator. I appreciate that. And I appreciate
19 what -- what you're kind of trying to accomplish
20 here. I appreciate that, and I get it.
21 But I do have a problem with the
22 aspect of New York saying -- I mean, listen, we
23 have -- we have state lines. We have boundaries.
24 We have borders. They need to be respected. We
25 don't legislate other states.
690
1 We -- if we want to penalize a
2 polluting company in New York that is polluting
3 in New York, I get that. But to say you've got a
4 company doing business in New York but they have
5 other areas or operations in either other states
6 or even other countries -- to then reach that far
7 out and say, Well, you're polluting in China or
8 you're polluting in France or Italy, we're going
9 to penalize you for that, I think that's a
10 little -- well, no, way out of our scope and out
11 of our boundary.
12 I'd like to see us just concentrate
13 here on New York, because I do believe that is
14 the definition of interstate commerce, especially
15 when we're talking about other states.
16 So for that reason, and the fact
17 that I think to a degree it is a bit duplicative
18 with some of the rules we already have in place,
19 for that reason I'll be voting no.
20 Thank you.
21 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
22 Borrello.
23 (No response.)
24 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Senator
25 Martins?
691
1 SENATOR MARTINS: Would the sponsor
2 yield for a few questions?
3 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Will the
4 sponsor yield?
5 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Certainly.
6 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you,
7 Senator.
8 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
9 sponsor yields.
10 SENATOR MARTINS: I just want to
11 understand a couple of points, and I'm going to
12 discuss it in terms of jobs.
13 And so if we have a multinational
14 corporation and they do no manufacturing in
15 New York -- but I think we'd all agree New York
16 City is the capital of the world in many
17 respects, and there are many companies that enjoy
18 the benefits of having headquarters in New York
19 City and they employ many people.
20 And so through this bill, if that
21 company, multi-billion-dollar company,
22 internationally, you know, positioned in many
23 parts of the world, but with headquarters in
24 New York -- if they relocated their headquarters
25 from New York City to Jersey City, would they
692
1 have to comply with this requirement?
2 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
3 Madam President. Good question.
4 If they were assuming, because
5 they're multinational, they have the
6 billion-dollar threshold, do they do a
7 million dollars worth of business in New York, a
8 million dollars worth of revenue derived just
9 from New York? And if they do, then the answer
10 is yes.
11 SENATOR MARTINS: Madam President,
12 through you, if the sponsor would continue to
13 yield.
14 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
15 sponsor yield?
16 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes, absolutely.
17 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
18 sponsor yields.
19 SENATOR MARTINS: Yes, but if they
20 are in New York, they're located in New York,
21 their headquarters are in New York, they're
22 employing people in New York, they otherwise have
23 no other presence in New York, would they have to
24 comply with this law and this -- and this -- and
25 this reporting requirement?
693
1 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
2 Madam President. If they don't earn a
3 million dollars -- so let's say, to your point,
4 Senator, that it's a multinational corporation,
5 they're headquartered on Park Avenue, but all of
6 their business is in Europe and Central America
7 and South America, they just have their
8 headquarters in New York because they think
9 that's where they should be because they have
10 access to global capital and, you know, all of
11 the things that New York has to offer -- but they
12 don't -- they don't have any sales in New York,
13 they would not be.
14 So if their markets are Europe and
15 South America and other parts of the country, but
16 as long as they don't have that million-dollar
17 sale threshold in -- million revenue in New York,
18 no, they're exempt from this.
19 SENATOR MARTINS: Madam President,
20 through you, if the sponsor will continue to
21 yield.
22 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
23 sponsor yield?
24 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes.
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
694
1 sponsor yields.
2 SENATOR MARTINS: So let's take
3 another example. Let's say Amazon was looking to
4 build one of their national headquarters and
5 they're looking for a place to do it. Let's say
6 they decide to build that -- or they're
7 considering building one of those national
8 headquarters here in New York, maybe even in
9 Queens.
10 And they -- they promise that
11 they're going to bring 50,000 dollars -- or
12 50,000 jobs, but they have an extensive system of
13 sales in New York through their network.
14 They would still have to comply with
15 this law regardless of whether or not that
16 headquarters was actually in New York, correct?
17 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
18 Madam President, they would most certainly have
19 to comply, because they sell -- they have more
20 than a million dollars of revenue in New York.
21 They're a billion-dollar company.
22 But they are already complying with
23 this in the EU, I can assure you. They will
24 qualify to do this under California. So either
25 way, whether their headquarters is here or not,
695
1 they would need to comply.
2 But I want to go back to the issue
3 of the cost of compliance and the fees. Which --
4 all right, so here's your Apple {sic}, to use
5 your example. Talking about a $237,000 cost
6 is -- that was proposed -- a survey of corporate
7 entities by Environmental Resources Management in
8 2022 of companies that are already doing this,
9 the average cost was $237,000. And for a
10 multinational corporation, that's not a huge
11 price tag, I would -- I would submit.
12 SENATOR MARTINS: Madam President,
13 through you, if the sponsor would continue to
14 yield.
15 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
16 sponsor yield?
17 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yes, absolutely.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
19 sponsor yields.
20 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
21 So our healthcare systems here in
22 New York, whether they are a Northwell or an
23 NYU Langone or any of the other healthcare
24 systems that we have, would they have to comply
25 with this law and provide a report to the DEC as
696
1 well?
2 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
3 Madam President. If they earn more than a
4 billion dollars and have more than a million in
5 revenue from New York, they would, because their
6 operations have greenhouse gas emissions and
7 climate impact.
8 So for instance, one of the
9 hospitals used to be in my district -- not
10 anymore, with redistricting -- they're a Title 5
11 emitter. They do their own power generation for
12 their healthcare facility.
13 The power they buy -- we often talk
14 on this floor about where we get our power. Is
15 it clean power, is it coal power, is it coming
16 from Pennsylvania? And those are always, you
17 know, good discussions that we should be having.
18 And then is the third level, the
19 Scope 3 emissions, is like where they're -- if
20 we're using the hospital example, you know, where
21 are their supplies coming from, where is their
22 equipment coming from, and what are the
23 greenhouse gas emissions there?
24 Again -- and we do this because
25 greenhouse gas emissions don't recognize state
697
1 boundaries -- it impacts all of us.
2 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
3 And Madam President, if the sponsor
4 would yield for just one more question.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Will the
6 sponsor yield?
7 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Certainly,
8 Madam President.
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
10 sponsor yields.
11 SENATOR MARTINS: To be clear, your
12 bill speaks to sales and sales of either --
13 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Of revenue.
14 Revenue.
15 SENATOR MARTINS: -- revenue that
16 either comes from sales, services or products
17 within the state and does not and would not
18 include payroll or any expenses that a company
19 has that is here within the state, even if it's
20 over a million dollars, even if it's, frankly,
21 whatever that number is above that
22 million dollars, it has nothing to do with their
23 presence in New York, it has nothing to do with
24 employment in New York, but only with that
25 million-dollar threshold with regard to revenue
698
1 tied to -- tied to -- sales or services or
2 products.
3 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
4 Madam President, you're absolutely correct. It's
5 payroll -- it's not payroll. It has to do with
6 sales and products or services.
7 But to your first example, they're
8 in New York, they just want to be -- have access
9 to global capital markets. They don't -- they
10 don't do any -- any business here other than pay
11 their employees. They're not covered under this.
12 SENATOR MARTINS: Madam President,
13 I said that was my last one, but I do have one
14 more.
15 (Laughter.)
16 SENATOR MARTINS: If the sponsor
17 would yield for one more question. And I
18 appreciate this, I really do, Senator.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Does the
20 sponsor yield?
21 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Yeah,
22 absolutely.
23 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The
24 sponsor yields.
25 SENATOR MARTINS: Thank you.
699
1 I mean, we've used the word
2 "revenue" as well, and I'm concerned and I just
3 want some clarity on that. You know, access --
4 (Off the record.)
5 SENATOR MARTINS: Senator, passive
6 revenue, is that included in your definition or
7 not?
8 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Through you,
9 Madam President, the language in the law which is
10 taken from other section -- Section 209 of the
11 Tax Law, it says does business in this state and
12 is deriving receipts from activity in this state
13 within the meaning of Section 209 of the Tax Law.
14 SENATOR MARTINS: Madam President,
15 thank you.
16 Senator, thank you.
17 SENATOR HARCKHAM: Thank you.
18 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Are
19 there any other Senators wishing to be heard?
20 Seeing and hearing none, the debate
21 is closed.
22 Senator Serrano.
23 SENATOR SERRANO: Upon consent,
24 we've agreed to restore this bill to the
25 noncontroversial calendar.
700
1 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Read the
2 last section.
3 THE SECRETARY: Section 5. This
4 act shall take effect on the 180th day after it
5 shall have become a law.
6 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Call the
7 roll.
8 (The Secretary called the roll.)
9 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: Announce
10 the results.
11 THE SECRETARY: In relation to
12 Calendar 294, voting in the negative are
13 Senators Ashby, Borrello, Canzoneri-Fitzpatrick,
14 Chan, Gallivan, Griffo, Helming, Lanza, Martins,
15 Mattera, Murray, Oberacker, O'Mara, Ortt,
16 Palumbo, Rhoads, Rolison, Stec, Tedisco, Walczyk,
17 Weber and Weik.
18 Ayes, 40. Nays, 22.
19 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: The bill
20 is passed.
21 Senator Serrano, that completes the
22 reading of the controversial calendar.
23 SENATOR SERRANO: Is there any
24 further business at the desk?
25 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: There is
701
1 no further business at the desk.
2 SENATOR SERRANO: I move to adjourn
3 until tomorrow, Wednesday, February 11th, at
4 11:00 a.m.
5 ACTING PRESIDENT PERSAUD: On
6 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until
7 Wednesday, February 11th, at 11:00 a.m.
8 (Whereupon, at 4:55 p.m., the Senate
9 adjourned.)
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