Gaveled in 11:08 AM · Albany, New York · 2009–10 session
1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE 2 3 4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 May 6, 2009 11 11:08 a.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR ANDREA STEWART-COUSINS, Acting President 19 ANGELO J. APONTE, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24
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(518) 371-8910 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 The Senate will please come to order. 4 I ask everyone present to rise and 5 recite with me the Pledge of Allegiance to our 6 Flag. 7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 The invocation today will be delivered by His 11 Holiness, the Dalai Lama of Tibet. 12 Your Holiness. 13 THE DALAI LAMA: Tibetan verses 14 [in Tibetan]. The meaning is the rest of my 15 life I follow according to compassionate 16 principles. Honesty, truthful, transparent. 17 And all my life to try as much as you can 18 serve the benefit of others. So that's the 19 meaning of that prayer. 20 Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 Thank you, Your Holiness. Thank you for 23 gracing our chambers. Thank you for bringing 24 the peace.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Smith. 2 SENATOR SMITH: Yes, Madam 3 President and colleagues. We have had the 4 pleasure of having the invocation this morning 5 being done by Your Holiness the Dalai Lama, 6 who as we all know is a person who has 7 traveled the world, who has been given not 8 only the Nobel Peace Prize for nonviolence, 9 but clearly one who represents peace and 10 honesty. 11 We had the pleasure of talking with 12 the Dalai Lama, His Holiness. And the three 13 things he imparted to me, the three things 14 that I will impart to you was that we should 15 always be truthful, we should always be 16 honest, and transparency was very much a part 17 of his life and very much a part of his life 18 now. 19 We are honored to have you here. 20 And we appreciate the time that you've taken 21 to come and provide us an invocation, praying 22 over us doing the people's business of the 23 State of New York, 19.5 million of us. We are 24 appreciative of your presence. On behalf of
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(518) 371-8910 1 our Governor, on behalf of our Speaker, we 2 welcome you to our chamber. 3 And at this time I'd like to have 4 our Minority Leader Dean Skelos also offer 5 some words. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, 7 Senator Smith, our Majority Leader. 8 Your Holiness, we welcome you on 9 behalf of the Republican conference to our 10 beautiful chamber. And it's a fitting day 11 that you are here, because I imagine later in 12 the day that we will be having a discussion on 13 various issues. And I would suggest to all of 14 us that we keep it in a very civil and 15 respectful way. 16 We have a wonderful democratic 17 process here in this country. Some days it's 18 a little less democratic than others. But I 19 know that, as the leader said, your belief in 20 peace, honesty, and transparency, but also the 21 fact that you protect the interests of 22 minorities within Tibet -- and certainly we 23 ask that you pray for this minority as we go 24 through the day.
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(518) 371-8910 1 (Laughter.) 2 SENATOR SKELOS: So we welcome 3 you. 4 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you very 5 much. 6 Madam President, we will stand at 7 ease for a moment. And I'd like to have 8 Senator Skelos accompany me up as we help the 9 Dalai Lama as he departs. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Thank you, Senator Smith. 12 THE DALAI LAMA: I want to say a 13 few words. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Please. 16 The Dalai Lama will speak. 17 THE DALAI LAMA: I'm a little 18 confused. 19 (Laughter.) 20 THE DALAI LAMA: At the beginning 21 I thought it was just short sort of prayer. 22 So, respected State Senators and 23 leaders, and I think some -- I think guests, 24 so indeed I am very, very happy I'm here. I
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(518) 371-8910 1 think I want to show my deep respect about 2 American values. And since the beginning 3 you've been liberty, justice, democracy, 4 freedom. These are I think your true values. 5 So I want to sort of show or express my 6 respect, admiration. 7 And then this is first time I've 8 come to the State Capitol here, although 9 New York area quite number of times I visit. 10 But this almost first time, I think first 11 time. So I just landed here, straight come 12 here on your invitation. So I think great 13 honor. 14 Then sometimes I have sort of -- 15 what to say, what to say -- sort of my 16 interest, or the feeling, is to side with 17 minority. So my sympathy will be more 18 Republican side. 19 (Laughter; applause.) 20 THE DALAI LAMA: Just a joke. 21 Just a joke. Not serious. 22 (Laughter.) 23 THE DALAI LAMA: So I think this 24 house I think really demonstrate American
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(518) 371-8910 1 system, democratic system, and according rule 2 of law. And also complete freedom of press. 3 These are, I think, really American power. It 4 is really fortunate superpower with such a 5 system, such values; I think very, very good. 6 So as I mentioned at the beginning, 7 any human activities, including religious 8 teaching, or any sort of politics or 9 everywhere, ultimately depend on our 10 individual motivation. No matter how good 11 system, but individual who play that system, 12 motivation not sort of adequate, then 13 sometimes even in the good system sometimes 14 may not sort of be successful. 15 So therefore, as I mentioned 16 before, honesty, truthful, and these very much 17 connected with compassion. Compassion, I 18 believe the prime mover of our activities in 19 order to become constructive and some sort of 20 beneficial. 21 So therefore, of course as far as 22 politics is concerned and economy is 23 concerned, you know much better. My knowledge 24 or experience is just zero.
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(518) 371-8910 1 But one thing I have firm 2 conviction is compassionate mind really bring 3 honesty, truthful, openness. These things 4 happen, then not only that, it bring positive 5 atmosphere within one's own family or within 6 the community. 7 And with compassion I think 8 so-called, nowadays, we are facing terrorism. 9 Ultimately, answer must come from compassion. 10 Then, also, for individual health. 11 Now, according to some medical scientists, 12 they now confirm that for health also the 13 compassionate mind is very essential, because 14 compassion bring us inner strength, more 15 self-confidence, inner peace of mind. That's 16 extremely useful for our health. 17 So I think even for the 18 politicians, you also take care of your own 19 good health, isn't it? 20 So therefore, the health of course 21 while we are taking some medicines or 22 medication and also exercise, but pay more 23 attention about our peace of mind. That's the 24 basis of that peace of mind, is compassion.
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(518) 371-8910 1 So I just want to share with you 2 then looks like when I enter here I am put in 3 the center. So I thought you elected 4 something. So then I thought oh, whether I 5 should join this body Democratic Party or 6 Republican Party or I should start another new 7 party. 8 (Laughter.) 9 THE DALAI LAMA: Which is to say 10 challenging for both parties. 11 Thank you. Thank you. A great 12 honor. Thank you. 13 (Extended standing ovation.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 The Senate will stand at ease. 16 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 17 ease at 11:20 a.m.) 18 (Whereupon, the Senate reconvened 19 at 11:33 a.m.) 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 The Senate will come to order. 22 Senator Klein. 23 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 24 I believe there's a privileged resolution at
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(518) 371-8910 1 the desk. I ask that just the title of the 2 resolution be read and move for its immediate 3 adoption. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 First may we have the reading of the Journal. 6 The Secretary will read. 7 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 8 Tuesday, May 5, the Senate met pursuant to 9 adjournment. The Journal of Monday, May 4, 10 was read and approved. On motion, Senate 11 adjourned. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Without objection, the Journal stands approved 14 as read. 15 Presentation of petitions. 16 Messages from the Assembly. 17 Messages from the Governor. 18 Reports of standing committees. 19 Reports of select committees. 20 Communications and reports from 21 state officers. 22 Motions and resolutions. 23 And I believe Senator Klein has a 24 motion.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 2 I have two motions. 3 The first, on behalf of Senator 4 Onorato, I move that the following bill be 5 discharged from its respective committees and 6 be recommitted with instructions to strike the 7 enacting clause: Senate Bill 4613. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 So ordered. 10 SENATOR KLEIN: The second, Madam 11 President, on behalf of Senator Valesky, I 12 move that the following bill be discharged 13 from its committee and be recommitted with 14 instructions to strike the enacting clause. 15 That's Senate Bill 5424. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 So ordered. 18 Now, with respect to the privileged 19 resolution, the Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Smith, 21 Legislative Resolution Number 1841 honoring 22 Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama, for a 23 lifetime dedicated to benefiting the entire 24 world community.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 The question is on the resolution. All those 3 in favor please signify by saying aye. 4 (Response of "Aye.") 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Opposed, nay. 7 (No response.) 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 The resolution is adopted. 10 At the request of the sponsor, the 11 resolution is open for multisponsorship by the 12 entire house. Any member wishing not to be a 13 multisponsor of the resolution should so 14 inform the desk. 15 Senator Klein. 16 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 17 I believe Senator Diaz has two resolutions at 18 the desk. I ask that each of the resolutions 19 be read in their entirety and move for their 20 immediate adoption and allow Senator Diaz to 21 speak on his resolutions. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 The Secretary will read. 24 THE SECRETARY: By Senator Diaz,
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(518) 371-8910 1 Legislative Resolution Number 1839, 2 memorializing Governor David A. Paterson to 3 proclaim May 2009 as "Senior Citizen Month" in 4 the State of New York. 5 "WHEREAS, The more than 3 million 6 residents of New York State 60 years of age or 7 older are vital, integral and contributing 8 members of our society; and 9 "WHEREAS, The more than 3 million 10 senior citizens residing in the State of 11 New York have contributed to the commonwealth 12 of the state by building and helping preserve 13 the customs, traditions and ideals of the many 14 ethnic groups that make up the mosaic of 15 New York State; and 16 "WHEREAS, The wisdom and experience 17 of senior citizens constantly enrich the lives 18 of the young people of our state through a 19 strong tradition of volunteerism; and 20 "WHEREAS, Since 1962, the month of 21 May has been declared by presidential 22 proclamation 'Older Americans Month,' in order 23 for communities around the nation to set time 24 aside to celebrate and reflect on the unique
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(518) 371-8910 1 role older Americans play in the fabric of our 2 society; and 3 "WHEREAS, The legislative and 4 executive branches of New York State 5 government have as a primary goal the 6 improvement of the quality of life of older 7 New Yorkers and the assurance of their 8 continued dignity; now, therefore, be it 9 "RESOLVED, That this Legislative 10 Body pause in its deliberations to memorialize 11 Governor David A. Paterson to proclaim May 12 2009 as 'Senior Citizen Month' in the State of 13 New York; and be it further 14 "RESOLVED, That all the residents 15 of New York State are urged to honor all 16 senior citizens, who are a cornerstone of the 17 strength of our nation and to whom a debt of 18 gratitude is owed; and be it further 19 "RESOLVED, That a copy of this 20 resolution, suitably engrossed, be transmitted 21 to the Honorable David A. Paterson, Governor 22 of the State of New York." 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Senator Diaz.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you, Madam 2 President. 3 Madam President, ladies and 4 gentlemen, the month of May has many different 5 holidays, many different celebrations, many 6 different dates to commemorate. 7 During the month of May, Madam 8 President and ladies and gentlemen, we 9 celebrate the International Workers' Day in 10 honor of those wonderful and magnificent men 11 and women that with their dedication, 12 commitment, and sweat work everyday to make 13 not only a living for themselves but also a 14 better place in the state, in the city and in 15 the nation. 16 In the month of May, Madam 17 President, we celebrate also El Cinco de Mayo, 18 in honor of the revolution that commemorates 19 the victory of the Mexican Army over the 20 French forces in the Battle of Puebla in 1862. 21 During the month of May, we also 22 celebrate Mother's Day, in honor of those 23 women that have realized that life is sacred 24 and have decided for life and not for
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(518) 371-8910 1 abortion. To all of you mothers, God bless 2 you and have a very, very happy Mother's Day. 3 During the month of May, ladies and 4 gentlemen, we also celebrate the Armed Forces 5 Day in recognition of the contributions of all 6 those men and women that have given and are 7 giving and will give their lives and their 8 blood and even their families for the love of 9 this country. 10 We also celebrate the nurses and 11 Memorial Day, great and very important days in 12 the history of our country. 13 To add to those celebrations during 14 the month of May, today, for the first time, 15 we were given and have the pleasure and the 16 honor to receive the Dalai Lama here in the 17 month of May. 18 But the month of May, Madam 19 President and ladies and gentlemen, is a very, 20 very important month. It is called the Senior 21 Citizens Month. The whole month is dedicated 22 to honor and to recognize the contributions, 23 the dedication, the commitment of senior 24 citizens in our state.
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(518) 371-8910 1 At this time, Madam President, we 2 have a little bit more over 3 million senior 3 citizens. And today, ladies and gentlemen, 4 today, ladies and gentlemen, we carry on a 5 tradition instituted by this house, the Senate 6 of the State of New York, 25 years ago. Since 7 1983 the New York State Senate has recognized 8 and honored the many achievements by our 9 state's senior citizens. 10 This year, this month, this time 11 and this occasion, I'm honored to be the 12 chairman of the Senior Citizens Committee from 13 the New York State Senate. 14 And today we have with us one 15 person representing every senior citizen of 16 the entire State of New York. And the Senate, 17 the New York State Senate has chosen that 18 person to be the Senior Citizen of the Year. 19 And today we are honored to have Mr. Floyd 20 Powell, who's sitting over there. 21 And Mr. Floyd Powell is from DeKalb 22 Junction, a place here in New York State, who 23 also Mr. Powell is a constituent of my good 24 friend and dedicated, distinguished member and
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(518) 371-8910 1 colleague Senator Darrel Aubertine. 2 Today we recognize Mr. Powell with 3 the 2009 New York State Outstanding 4 Contribution by a Senior Citizen in our state. 5 Mr. Powell has given his time and talent 6 generously and voluntarily in order to serve 7 his community and in order to improve the 8 lives of many people in need among his many 9 contributions are the following. 10 The chaplain of the DeKalb-Hermon 11 Senior Citizens Club. Founder and main 12 caretaker of the DeKalb Junction Food Pantry. 13 Counselor and leader of a Methodist Youth 14 Group, and choir member, and a trustee of the 15 Town of DeKalb Historical Association. 16 Mr. Powell, to you I say what the 17 bible said in Matthew, Chapter 25, Verse 21. 18 The Lord, talking to one servant, the Lord 19 said, "I am very" -- and this was very 20 appropriate. The Lord said: "Well done, well 21 done, my good and faithful servant. Since you 22 were faithful in small matters, I will give 23 you great responsibilities. So come and share 24 your master's joy." Matthew 25, Verse 21.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Thank you, Mr. Powell, for your 2 contribution to the State of New York. Thank 3 you for your dedication. Thank you for being 4 the humble person, the great human being that 5 you are. It's an honor for me as the chairman 6 of the Aging Committee to recognize you today. 7 Thank you, Madam President, for 8 this opportunity. 9 (Applause.) 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Thank you, Senator Diaz. 12 And thank you, Mr. Powell, for 13 exemplifying all of the best that our seniors 14 offer us. 15 The question is on the resolution, 16 unless there is anyone else who would like to 17 speak on the resolution. 18 Hearing none, the question is on 19 the resolution declaring this month Senior 20 Citizen Month. All those in favor signify by 21 saying aye. 22 (Response of "Aye.") 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Opposed, nay.
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(518) 371-8910 1 (No response.) 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 The resolution is carried. 4 At the request of the sponsor, the 5 resolution is open for multisponsorship by the 6 entire house. Any member wishing not to be a 7 multisponsor of the resolution should so 8 inform the desk. 9 The Secretary will continue to 10 read. 11 THE SECRETARY: By Senators Diaz 12 and Aubertine, Legislative Resolution Number 13 1840, honoring Floyd Powell upon the occasion 14 of receiving the 2009 New York State 15 Outstanding Contribution by a Senior Citizen 16 Award. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 18 Senator Aubertine. 19 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Thank you, 20 Madam President. 21 I want to thank my good friend and 22 colleague Senator Diaz for bringing this 23 resolution forward. 24 As we've heard Senator Diaz say,
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(518) 371-8910 1 Floyd "Duff" Powell is certainly an asset not 2 only to DeKalb but all of New York State. 3 Floyd has been very, very active in his 4 community, and there are there are a lot of 5 people in DeKalb and in St. Lawrence County 6 that depend on Floyd. 7 Duff seems to be available for just 8 about anything he's asked to do. His service 9 to the community has been long recognized by 10 many, by many who call him friend. This 11 recognition from the State of New York 12 formalizes what everyone who already knows 13 Duff knows. He's certainly a big contributor 14 to his community. 15 It's clear, Duff, that you're 16 deserving of this honor. And I'm very, very 17 pleased to have cosponsored this resolution 18 with my good friend Senator Diaz. 19 And I want to recognize you and all 20 of the seniors who are here to recognize you. 21 So congratulations, Duff, on this award, this 22 honor. 23 Thank you. Thank you, Madam 24 President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Thank you, Senator Aubertine. 3 Senator Diaz. 4 SENATOR DIAZ: I also would like 5 to invite, Madam President, with all due 6 respect, all of my colleagues. At 7 1:00 o'clock in the convention hall there's 8 going to be more than 600 senior citizens from 9 all over the state. The Governor will be 10 addressing them. Senator Malcolm Smith will 11 be addressing them. And we will be 12 recognizing and presenting Mr. Powell with a 13 citation from the Senate. 14 So this will be at 1:00 o'clock. 15 All of you are invited to come and join and 16 say hello to all those magnificent senior 17 citizens from the State of New York. 18 Thank you. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Thank you, Senator Diaz. 21 Are there any other Senators 22 wishing to speak on the resolution? 23 Hearing none, the question is on 24 the resolution. All those in favor please
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(518) 371-8910 1 signify by saying aye. 2 (Response of "Aye.") 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Opposed, nay. 5 (No response.) 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 The resolution is adopted. 8 As in the previous case, the 9 request of the sponsor is that the resolution 10 is open for multisponsorship by the entire 11 house. Any member wishing not to be a 12 multisponsor of the resolution should so 13 inform the desk. 14 Senator Klein. 15 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 16 can we at this time move to a reading of 17 Senate Calendar Number 43. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 The Secretary will read. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 8, by Member of the Assembly Paulin, Assembly 22 Print Number 755A, an act to amend the 23 Executive Law, in relation to prohibiting 24 employers.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR GRIFFO: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 The bill is laid aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 19, by Senator Klein, Senate Print 1363C, an 6 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules 7 and the Real Property Actions and Proceedings 8 Law, in relation to evictions. 9 SENATOR GRIFFO: Lay it aside. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 The bill is laid aside. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 45, by Senator Stavisky, Senate Print 1742A, 14 an act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 15 relation to tax abatement. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Read the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 Call the roll. 22 (The Secretary called the roll.) 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Announce the results.
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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. Nays, 2 1. Senator Ranzenhofer recorded in the 3 negative. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 The bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 60, by Senator Oppenheimer, Senate Print 1087, 8 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 9 extending. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 There is a home-rule message at the desk. 12 Read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Call the roll. 17 (The Secretary called the roll.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Announce the results. 20 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 60. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 The bill is passed. 23 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 24 227, by Senator Schneiderman --
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 The bill is laid aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 228, by Member of the Assembly Weinstein, 6 Assembly Print Number 2006, an act to amend 7 the Penal Law, in relation to property 8 interests. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Call the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Announce the results. 18 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 60. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 The bill is passed. 21 Senator Klein, that completes the 22 noncontroversial reading of the active bills 23 on Calendar Number 43. 24 SENATOR KLEIN: If we could go to
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(518) 371-8910 1 a reading of the controversial calendar, Madam 2 President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 If the Secretary would please ring the bells, 5 members are asked to come to the chamber for 6 the controversial reading of the active bills 7 on the calendar. 8 The Secretary will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 8, by Member of the Assembly Paulin, Assembly 11 Print Number 755A, an act to amend the 12 Executive Law. 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: 14 Explanation. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Johnson, an explanation is requested. 17 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sure. 18 Thank you, Madam President. 19 This bill would prohibit employers 20 from discriminating against victims of 21 domestic violence or stalking based upon their 22 status as a domestic violence victim. 23 As the body may recall, a little 24 while back this year we passed a similar bill
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(518) 371-8910 1 sponsored by myself here in the Senate. And 2 as the process wound its way through the 3 Assembly, in consultation with members of the 4 Assembly, there was a determination that we 5 could actually strengthen the bill, and we 6 were able to do so by providing that the 7 definition of a domestic violence victim, the 8 status of the domestic violence victim would 9 be based upon the victim of an act described 10 pursuant to Section 812 of the Family Court 11 Act -- which is different than what my earlier 12 bill had indicated. That referred to a 13 prohibition of the provision in the Social 14 Services Law. 15 So in consultation with the 16 Assembly sponsor, Amy Paulin, whom I worked 17 very closely with, we have made the 18 appropriate changes. Actually, this bill I 19 think is a stronger bill, it will protect more 20 men and women, women and men who are victims 21 of domestic violence and will protect them 22 from being discriminated against by their 23 employers. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator DeFrancisco. 2 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would 3 Senator Johnson yield to a question? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Johnson, will you yield? 6 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of course 7 I will, Senator DeFrancisco. 8 Madam Chair, can we just get some 9 order? I'm having a hard time hearing. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 May we have order in the chamber, please. 12 Senator DeFrancisco. 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I think you 14 may have already answered this one, but I want 15 to be sure, because your memo talks about the 16 lack of financial independence for many women 17 in abusive relationships is often the reason 18 why women stay with their abusers. 19 And my question was, does this bill 20 apply to -- 21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Yes. 22 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: -- victims 23 of domestic violence no matter what their sex 24 may be?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Yes. It 2 should have been clearer, and I thank you, 3 Senator DeFrancisco, for pointing that out. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: All right. 5 Would Senator Johnson yield to another 6 question? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Do you continue to yield, Senator? 9 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 10 course, Madam President. 11 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Is it fair 12 to say that if someone is fired from a job for 13 the reason that the person was a victim of 14 domestic violence, that would be a violation 15 of the Civil Rights Statute of the State of 16 New York if this bill became law? 17 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: You know, 18 through you, Madam President, obviously I 19 can't answer that particular question about 20 some violation of the Civil Rights Statute 21 with respect to how a court would determine 22 that. Certainly someone would have actionable 23 grounds to pursue that course of action. 24 This one, clearly what we're trying
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(518) 371-8910 1 to do is protect men and women who are victims 2 of domestic violence. But it's a valid point. 3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would 4 Senator Johnson yield to another question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Senator Johnson, do you continue to yield? 7 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: 8 Absolutely, Madam President. 9 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Now, all of 10 the other areas that are protected under the 11 Executive Law Section 296, there seems to be 12 an objective standard as to how you determine 13 whether you're a protected class -- whether 14 it's military status, sex, disability, genetic 15 characteristics, race, creed, color. 16 How does one, if you're an employee 17 and you're being either charged with or you're 18 being accused of violating this Executive Law, 19 how does an employee determine whether that 20 person that's being protected here is a victim 21 of domestic violence? 22 Because the way I read this, there 23 doesn't have to be a conviction where this 24 victim is found in a court of law to be a
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(518) 371-8910 1 victim of domestic violence. There's not even 2 a requirement of a police report. How does 3 one, as an employer, make that determination? 4 Are they required to just take the word of the 5 person claiming to be a domestic violence 6 victim? What's the process for making that 7 determination? 8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sure. 9 And a very good question as well. 10 Obviously, when you refer back to 11 the family offenses proceedings law, this 12 Section 812 which sets forth in the various 13 acts what are family offenses -- and it goes 14 through a wide variety, similar to but larger 15 than what was indicated in the Social Services 16 Law, where the Social Services Law had also 17 set forth a wide variety of -- one moment, I'm 18 just going to open it up -- a wide variety of 19 various acts that someone could be charged 20 with. 21 The purpose of the law is to make 22 sure that when an employer -- you said 23 employee, but it's an employer; I just want to 24 clarify what you were trying to say -- it
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(518) 371-8910 1 requires an employee, if they state that they 2 are a victim of domestic violence, their 3 spouse, their partner, their relations also, 4 you know, has been threatening them or has 5 been arrested, we'll cover them under this 6 law. 7 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Will 8 Senator Johnson yield to another question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Johnson, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: 12 Absolutely. 13 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: But you 14 agree, Senator Johnson, that this statute that 15 you're proposing or the bill that you're 16 proposing to become law does not require there 17 to be an adjudication that someone was a 18 victim of a family offense -- 19 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Correct. 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: -- it just 21 defines what could result in -- what could be 22 defined as a family offense, the person is 23 protected; is that fair to say? 24 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: That's
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(518) 371-8910 1 fair to say, yes. 2 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: But the 3 process, how do you determine whether what's 4 being said by the victim is truthful, whether 5 what's being said, if there's a dispute with 6 the abuser, the alleged abuser, how does an 7 employer make that determination? Do they 8 hold a hearing in their offices and try to 9 figure out what facts are true so that they 10 can make the right decision on this civil 11 right that we're creating under this bill? 12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 13 you. And through you, Madam President. 14 Obviously a very important concern, one that I 15 would have hoped -- or I'm sure that when we 16 debated the bill the first time was an issue 17 that we could have and should have discussed. 18 But, you know, I'm glad we're bringing it up 19 now. 20 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Thank you. 21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: The most 22 important thing for an employer is to ensure 23 that he has a safe workplace, among other 24 things, and to ensure that his or her
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(518) 371-8910 1 employees are protected and are protected from 2 the violence that occurred at home, outside of 3 the home -- because the fact is it does impact 4 upon the productivity. 5 And so it does require an employer 6 to inquire and to make an inquiry, because 7 that's what we need to make sure happens to 8 protect the employee and especially protect 9 the workplace. 10 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Thank you. 11 On the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Senator DeFrancisco, on the bill. 14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I can 15 understand the rationale behind trying to 16 protect victims of domestic violence. But, 17 you know, we're in a situation now where we're 18 placing enough burdens on employers, and 19 businesses are closing and employers are 20 reducing the amount of jobs and the like. 21 And I really, in all honesty, have 22 no idea how an employer would make this 23 determination when someone claims they're a 24 victim of domestic violence and, for example,
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(518) 371-8910 1 they need some extra time off from work or 2 they will -- they need a leave of absence for 3 a period of time. There is no objective way 4 to make that determination if there has been 5 no adjudication that he can rely on or she can 6 rely on, whoever the employer may be. 7 And the other areas of -- the other 8 protected areas, there's a pretty objective 9 standard as to whether you've been in the 10 military, whether you're being discriminated 11 against because of your sex, a disability, 12 age, race, and it goes on and on. 13 But a victim of domestic violence 14 may be -- it may be very difficult for an 15 employer to determine whether the allegations 16 that are being made by the employee are 17 truthful, are corroborated, really do meet the 18 standards of the family law. 19 And I've got a feeling that this 20 might cause employers a substantial amount of 21 problems in making these determinations. And 22 it seems to me that this bill, if the bill is 23 something that we should pass, it should be, 24 in my mind, something where there's already
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(518) 371-8910 1 been an adjudication or at the very least 2 there's been objective reports and an 3 investigation by the police department, even 4 if there's no charges that are brought or no 5 family offense has been brought -- something 6 upon which the employer is allowed to rely 7 upon, rather than trying to test the 8 credibility of an alleged victim. 9 So I have a concern with the bill 10 for that reason. 11 Thank you, Madam President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Thank you, Senator. 14 Senator Hassell-Thompson. 15 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank 16 you, Madam President. Just on the bill. 17 I want to congratulate my colleague 18 Senator Craig Johnson for putting forth this 19 bill. As someone who is fairly newly 20 appointed to the chair the task force on 21 domestic violence for the state, as we look at 22 what happens to victims, one of the concerns I 23 think I have is that when we -- for some 24 reason, when we're in a financial crisis, it
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(518) 371-8910 1 seems that rules go out of the window. 2 Employers are responsible for 3 workplace safety. And many times, because 4 women do have to take a leave of absence or 5 they have to take time from work, I understand 6 that it does cause an increased burden, but I 7 think we also have an obligation to protect 8 and to ensure that we not only don't 9 jeopardize employment opportunities for 10 victims, because it just exacerbates a bad 11 situation, but we should not use excuses that 12 "We're on hard times, and we may have to 13 replace you if we have to be responsible for 14 your safety or there are too many problems 15 with you being employed." 16 Particularly if we're talking about 17 people who are good workers and who 18 desperately need to hold onto their employment 19 because of their changed situation. 20 So I commend Senator Craig Johnson. 21 And I certainly hope that my colleagues will 22 see the need for compassion that this bill 23 expresses. 24 Thank you, Madam President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Thank you, Senator. 3 Are there any other members wishing 4 to speak on the bill? 5 Senator Saland. 6 SENATOR SALAND: If Senator 7 Johnson would yield. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Senator Johnson, do you yield? 10 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 11 course, for Senator Saland. 12 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Johnson, 13 did you consider placing in this language some 14 provision that at the very least there should 15 have been some showing that a complaint had 16 been filed with law enforcement as being a -- 17 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sorry. 18 Through you, Madam President. Senator Saland, 19 I know you and I both, being in the legal 20 profession and both of us having a bond on 21 family members who are involved or have been 22 involved in law enforcement, women and men who 23 are sometimes domestic violence victims 24 sometimes are even too scared to file a
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(518) 371-8910 1 complaint with the police department. 2 Sometimes, you know, they get battered, they 3 get an incident, and it does have an effect. 4 So I did not consider the idea 5 about putting in a complaint, but I also did 6 so because, you know, it does create a 7 situation where what about the woman who has 8 been beaten and is too afraid, for whatever 9 reason. You know, maybe there is that 10 individual who as the victim may have problems 11 with the police. Maybe they're scared. Maybe 12 they have a different problem. 13 So obviously, you know, it does 14 create a different situation where if you 15 establish that particular standard you may not 16 be capturing men and women who are victims of 17 domestic violence. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 19 Senator Johnson. 20 Madam President, on the bill. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 Senator Saland, on the bill. 23 SENATOR SALAND: When I 24 originally did the revamp of the domestic
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(518) 371-8910 1 violence law, the Family Protection and 2 Domestic Violence Intervention Act -- I 3 believe it might have been in 1994 -- the very 4 issue that I raised with Senator Johnson was 5 considered at that time. 6 And one of the things that we 7 required in that legislation was, with rare 8 exception, mandatory arrest. If the charge 9 was a misdemeanor charge, there was some 10 latitude with regard to the victim, as to 11 whether or not she or occasionally he might 12 wish to pursue the charges. 13 When I did the legislation 14 requiring fingerprinting of school 15 employees -- again, the intent of which was to 16 curb abuse of children in school settings -- 17 we required investigations, investigations by 18 law enforcement, not by a school district, the 19 purpose of which was to ensure that these 20 investigations were conducted professionally, 21 that these investigations were not in effect 22 botched by people who weren't trained to do 23 law enforcement work. 24 The intent of this bill certainly
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(518) 371-8910 1 is a most laudable intent. And I'm not 2 suggesting to anybody that they vote against 3 this bill. But what I am suggesting is that 4 the language could be tighter. 5 It will be an extremely challenging 6 situation for employers, based on a mere 7 allegation, to give some preferential 8 treatment to somebody who claims that they had 9 been victimized, whether that treatment is 10 some post in a different location, if that 11 employer has more than one place of business, 12 whether that post quite literally is moving 13 from one place in an office to another place 14 in an office, or whether that affords the 15 opportunity for some additional time by way of 16 request, as I believe may have been mentioned 17 earlier by Senator DeFrancisco. 18 So I would hope that this would 19 continue to be work in progress. I would hope 20 that Senator Johnson would, when all is said 21 and done, not consider this to have been 22 finally resolved here today, but look to see 23 how he can somehow or other deal with some of 24 the legitimate issues that have been raised
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(518) 371-8910 1 here this afternoon. 2 Thank you, Madam President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Thank you, Senator. 5 Are there any other Senators 6 wishing to be heard on this bill? 7 Hearing none, then the debate is 8 closed. 9 The Secretary will ring the bell. 10 Members are asked to come to the chamber to 11 vote on the bill. 12 Read the last section. 13 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 14 act shall take effect immediately. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 May we have some order, please. 17 The Secretary will call the roll. 18 (The Secretary called the roll.) 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator Schneiderman, to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 22 Madam President. To explain my vote. 23 I just want to say that there are 24 always objections raised when you're trying to
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(518) 371-8910 1 prohibit discrimination. And I think 2 Senator Johnson is really not just bringing a 3 good bill to the floor today but raising 4 public awareness. 5 This bill does not prohibit anyone 6 from taking any action based on conduct or 7 misconduct or omissions or actions. It simply 8 says you can't discriminate against someone 9 because of their status as a domestic violence 10 victim. This is a very real problem. 11 And to my colleagues who expressed 12 concerns, this is a problem all over the State 13 of New York. And this is a big step forward 14 towards ensuring that people, through no fault 15 of their own, aren't terminated from 16 employment just based on the fact that they 17 are a victim of misconduct. 18 Senator Johnson, thank you. This 19 is a fine, fine piece of legislation. I vote 20 yes, Madam President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 Thank you, Senator. 23 Senator DeFrancisco. 24 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes. I
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(518) 371-8910 1 just want to explain my vote. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Again, please, can we have some order. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: And lest I 5 be accused of being against victims of 6 domestic violence, my points that I was trying 7 to make during the course of the debate were 8 very simple. That each of the other 9 categories in this Executive Law that protects 10 people from discrimination are -- there's 11 objective criteria by which you can determine 12 the status of that person. 13 A victim of domestic violence, 14 there is no objective criteria by which 15 someone could protect themselves from being 16 accused of being a victim of domestic 17 violence. There is no court proceeding that 18 has been determined before the fact that the 19 person was truly a victim. And I just -- I 20 think it opens the door for some serious 21 problems that employers are going to have. 22 So that is my objection; not with 23 the concept that this is a group that should 24 be protected, it's a question of how you make
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(518) 371-8910 1 that objective determination. 2 I would have much rather seen a 3 bill that said a victim of domestic violence 4 as determined by a court of law, as determined 5 in family court, criminal court, or even as 6 determined by the police in an investigation 7 that was conducted. But rather leaving it 8 open-ended, I think, is going to be a real 9 problem for employers. 10 With that said, I will reluctantly 11 vote yes, because I know if I voted no I would 12 be accused by this august body, by somebody in 13 this august body that I was against victims of 14 domestic violence. 15 Thank you very much. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator DeFrancisco to be recorded in the 18 affirmative. 19 Anyone else wishing to explain his 20 or her vote? 21 Hearing none, please announce the 22 results. 23 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 61. Nays, 24 0.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 The bill is passed. 3 The Secretary will read. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 19, by Senator Klein, Senate Print 1363C, an 6 act to amend the Civil Practice Law and Rules 7 and the Real Property Actions and Proceedings 8 Law. 9 SENATOR SALAND: Explanation, 10 please. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Klein. 13 SENATOR KLEIN: This legislation, 14 Madam President, comes after unfortunately 15 many tenants throughout New York State and 16 throughout the country being evicted because 17 of the subprime lending crisis. More and 18 more, we're seeing more of the people who have 19 been impacted by the subprime fallout, and in 20 this case these are tenants. 21 These are individuals who rented 22 apartments or part of a home in a residential 23 property, a one-to-five-family home, who in 24 many case, unbeknownst to them, the property
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(518) 371-8910 1 they were living in was the subject of a 2 foreclosure proceeding. Before they even know 3 that the property fell into foreclosure, they 4 in many cases were evicted with -- 5 SENATOR SALAND: Could we have 6 some order, please? There's quite a bit of 7 chatter around me, and I can't hear Senator 8 Klein. 9 Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Senator Klein, continue. 12 SENATOR KLEIN: As I was saying, 13 Madam President, these tenants in many cases 14 received as little as three to 10 days' notice 15 that they were facing eviction from the home 16 that they lived in. 17 These tenants were playing by the 18 rules. They were paying their rent on time, 19 they were taking care of their properties, and 20 unbeknownst to them, the property they were 21 living in was the subject of a foreclosure 22 proceeding. 23 My office conducted a survey 24 through three months in the New York City
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(518) 371-8910 1 area, and we found on average these types of 2 evictions -- meaning tenants being evicted 3 from foreclosed properties -- on average, it's 4 about 581 per month. Per month. And 5 unfortunately, with this number continuously 6 growing at the end of 2007, nationwide, over 7 1 million one-to-four-family homes were 8 renter-occupied, and over 15,000 renters were 9 at risk of losing their homes due to 10 foreclosure. 11 This legislation will do two 12 important things. First, it would require 13 that the lending institution, or anyone who is 14 bringing a foreclosure proceeding, notify the 15 tenant that a foreclosure proceeding is taking 16 place. Right now that's what they have to do 17 for the individual who owns the home. Now 18 they also have to notify the tenants who are 19 living in the premises. 20 Next, once the new owner -- which 21 could be a bank or a new individual -- wants 22 to vacate the property by special proceeding 23 or writ of assistance, they must give the 24 tenant 90 days to vacate.
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(518) 371-8910 1 In addition, this legislation also 2 codifies in the law the Polish National 3 Alliance case which states that the normal 4 procedure to evict would have to be followed, 5 which is 30 days. Right now, if a tenant is 6 not made party to the foreclosure, then their 7 lease will survive the foreclosure. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Thank you, Senator. 10 Senator Saland. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Madam 12 President. Would Senator Klein yield to a 13 question, please. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Senator Klein, will you yield? 16 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 17 I'd be happy to yield for a question. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 19 Senator Klein. 20 Senator Klein, just a couple of 21 questions. I didn't catch all your comments, 22 and then perhaps I'll follow those up with 23 some more. 24 You had said something to the
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(518) 371-8910 1 effect of 581 tenants per month as a result of 2 some survey. Could you -- I didn't catch all 3 your comments. Could you tell me -- 4 SENATOR KLEIN: Through you, 5 Madam President, the survey that was conducted 6 by my office looked at the five counties in 7 the City of New York. And if you look at 8 through December 2008 through April 2009, on 9 average there's 581 evictions of tenants who 10 were living in foreclosed properties. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Will Senator 12 Klein continue to yield? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Klein, will you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR KLEIN: I will continue 16 to yield. 17 SENATOR SALAND: And are these 18 the one-to-five-unit properties you're 19 proposing to address in this bill? 20 SENATOR KLEIN: Yes. These are 21 tenants that are living in residential 22 properties, one-to-five-family homes. 23 SENATOR SALAND: And you also 24 mentioned that you were codifying a case, and
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(518) 371-8910 1 I could not keep up with you at that point. 2 Could you please -- 3 SENATOR KLEIN: Through you, 4 Madam President, the case -- what happens, if 5 a tenant is not made party to the foreclosure, 6 then their lease will survive the foreclosure. 7 Presently, under statute, that's not the case. 8 However, in a case Polish National 9 Alliance of Brooklyn vs. White Eagle Hall, in 10 this case the foreclosure would actually be 11 able to survive -- I mean, the tenancy would 12 survive even after the foreclosure. So this 13 legislation would codify that case that I 14 cited. 15 SENATOR SALAND: And if he could 16 continue to yield. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 18 Senator, do you continue to yield? 19 SENATOR KLEIN: I'd be happy to 20 continue to yield. 21 SENATOR SALAND: And could you 22 share with us when that decision was rendered 23 and what court rendered it? 24 SENATOR KLEIN: It was the Second
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(518) 371-8910 1 Department, 1983. 2 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you. 3 Thank you, Senator Klein. 4 Senator Klein -- Madam President, 5 would Senator Klein continue to yield, please. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Klein, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 9 I'd be happy to continue to yield. 10 SENATOR SALAND: On page 5 of 11 your bill, Senator Klein -- I'm looking at 12 Section 3 that begins at line 24 -- you 13 require service by a new owner of a tenant in 14 a variety of different fashions and go on to 15 say that notice shall be accompanied by 16 acknowledgment of service that shall be signed 17 by the tenant, and then follow it up by saying 18 if the tenant refuses to sign the 19 acknowledgment, the serving party may file 20 with the court a sworn affidavit. 21 Would that sworn affidavit form the 22 basis for a summary judgment motion in the 23 event that the owner of the property wished to 24 have the tenant evicted?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR KLEIN: Through you, 2 Madam President, right now in New York State 3 there's three different ways that a tenant can 4 be evicted. One is a writ of assistance, one 5 is a special proceeding, one is eviction by 6 regular 30-day notice. 7 So under my proposed legislation, 8 you would actually be able to -- the notice 9 requirement of course within 30 days of the 10 foreclosure proceeding, and then an additional 11 60. 12 SENATOR SALAND: My point is, if 13 the tenant refuses to sign the acknowledgment 14 of service and the landlord -- the owner 15 offers a sworn affidavit that in fact the 16 tenant refused to sign, will that suffice for 17 purposes of a motion for summary judgment? 18 SENATOR KLEIN: Yes, it would. 19 SENATOR SALAND: It will. 20 SENATOR KLEIN: Yes, it will, 21 Senator. 22 Just to elaborate a little further, 23 one of the problems that we've seen is that in 24 many cases either the tenant is named in the
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(518) 371-8910 1 foreclosure proceeding as a Jane or John Doe, 2 they never actually get the notice, or in some 3 cases they only serve the owner of the 4 foreclosed property, and of course he or she 5 doesn't pass that on to the tenant because 6 they're hopeful that the tenant will continue 7 to pay rent. 8 SENATOR SALAND: If the Senator 9 will continue to yield. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Senator Klein, do you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR KLEIN: I'd be happy to 13 continue to yield. 14 SENATOR SALAND: I saw your 15 reference to pseudonyms somewhere else in 16 this -- 17 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 18 I'm having lot of problems hearing Senator 19 Saland. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: I 21 would urge the members to please be 22 respectful of your colleagues as they debate. 23 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you. 24 Thank you. I appreciate the problem.
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(518) 371-8910 1 I saw your reference to pseudonyms. 2 The question which I would ask you in that 3 context would be I just purchased a parcel or 4 a unit that had been the subject of a 5 foreclosure proceeding. I don't have a rent 6 roll, I don't know who the tenants are, and I 7 can't locate the tenants. Standard practice 8 in those situations is that you do use a John 9 or Jane Doe in order to obtain service -- nail 10 and mail, some form of substituted service. 11 SENATOR KLEIN: I'm not requiring 12 under this legislation -- through you, Madam 13 President -- that we change the notice 14 requirements of how service is made. 15 Presently in New York State it would be nail 16 and mail, and that would suffice also in my 17 legislation. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Well, I'll call 19 your attention to the same page, beginning at 20 line 51. 21 SENATOR KLEIN: Under the 22 legislation -- let me just interrupt one 23 second, Senator Saland -- you have to make a 24 good-faith effort to locate the tenant.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Saland, do you wish Senator Klein to 3 continue to yield? 4 SENATOR SALAND: If he would 5 continue to yield, yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Klein? 8 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 9 I'll continue to yield. 10 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Klein, 11 could you tell me your understanding of the 12 law with respect to a holdover tenant? What 13 rights does a holdover tenant have currently 14 in law? 15 SENATOR KLEIN: Presently, under 16 a foreclosure proceeding, if there's a 17 foreclosure that takes place and there's a 18 tenant living in the foreclosed property and 19 that tenant was not named in the foreclosure 20 proceeding, they have no rights. 21 In other words, they could move to 22 clear the property again with the three to 23 10 days that I talked about earlier. That's 24 really the genesis of this legislation.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR SALAND: And if you know, 2 Senator Klein, if you'll continue to yield -- 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Do you continue to yield, Senator Klein? 5 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 6 I'll be happy to continue to yield. 7 SENATOR SALAND: That, in fact, 8 is consistent with the law throughout the 9 State of New York with respect to holdover 10 tenants. You are something akin to a 11 squatter, and you have no rights. 12 SENATOR KLEIN: Right. Right. 13 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Klein, 14 if you're a month-to-month tenant, what would 15 the law provide in terms of the requirements 16 of an owner or a landlord to evict you? 17 SENATOR KLEIN: Through you, 18 Madam President. Again, this only applies to 19 a tenant who's living in a foreclosed 20 property. I'm not expanding any of the notice 21 requirements or the time that that person 22 could be legally evicted in all other cases. 23 Again, this just applies to 24 foreclosed properties and properties which
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(518) 371-8910 1 contain one to four units. 2 SENATOR SALAND: If Senator Klein 3 will continue. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Klein, do you continue to yield? 6 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 7 I'd be happy to continue to yield. 8 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Klein, 9 there are tenants in one-to-five-unit 10 residences or buildings that may well be 11 month-to-month tenants. It's certainly 12 commonplace in my district. And what the law 13 would require with respect to a month-to-month 14 tenant would be that be that tenant get a 15 term's notice. 16 So if you are paying rent based on 17 the first of the month, you must be given a 18 term's notice for the whole month before you 19 can begin the summary proceeding. 20 Similarly, if I'm a holdover 21 tenant -- and whether it's in a foreclosed 22 premise or in a normal, I'll say, 23 garden-variety landlord/tenant situation, all 24 that has to be done is have to serve you a
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(518) 371-8910 1 72-hour notice to vacate. 2 So what you are doing with respect 3 to landlord/tenant law I would say is 4 certainly a departure from the existing law. 5 And with respect to holdover tenants who 6 expect nothing more than a term's notice, you 7 are now providing I believe 90 days' notice 8 before you can even begin that proceeding. 9 SENATOR KLEIN: Through you, 10 Madam President. Again, as I said, this only 11 applies to tenants that are in foreclosed 12 properties, one to four units. 13 And one of the things that we're 14 doing -- and again, these are special 15 circumstances, as I highlighted before, with 16 the large number of tenants being evicted with 17 actually no notice or three to 10 days if they 18 lived in a foreclosed property. 19 So what we are doing in this case 20 is first, as I said, requiring the 30 days 21 upon the foreclosure proceeding. And then 22 actually, yes, giving them additional -- 23 giving them 90 days to find alternative space. 24 SENATOR SALAND: If the Senator
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(518) 371-8910 1 will continue to yield. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Klein, will you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR KLEIN: Yes, Madam 5 President, I'd be happy to continue to yield. 6 SENATOR SALAND: I saw some 7 provision in here, and quite candidly I'm 8 trying to scan and I can't pick up where I saw 9 it, where there's language to the effect that 10 under certain circumstances where service has 11 not been made in some fashion, a tenant is not 12 required to pay rent. Perhaps you could pull 13 that up for me. 14 SENATOR KLEIN: I'll locate that 15 section for you, sure. 16 SENATOR SALAND: I was just 17 advised by Senator DeFrancisco it's page 5, 18 line 32, starting at 32. 19 SENATOR KLEIN: "A tenant who is 20 not served by the notice required by this 21 section within the time period for service, 22 until such notice is duly served upon such 23 tenant." 24 That's the 30-day grace period
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(518) 371-8910 1 under the legislation for a tenant who is not 2 served in any way that there was even a 3 foreclosure proceeding taking place in the 4 property that he or she was living in. 5 SENATOR SALAND: Why would you 6 want to let somebody live on somebody else's 7 premises rent-free if you effectively were to 8 say, well, since they weren't served, they 9 cannot be required to pay until they are 10 served, but when they are served, they will be 11 required to pay for the period they were in 12 possession? 13 Otherwise, I fear what you're going 14 to do is you're going to encourage tenants to 15 avoid service for purposes of avoiding having 16 to pay rent. 17 SENATOR KLEIN: Through you, 18 Madam President, that's not the intent at all. 19 The reason why that portion, the section is in 20 the legislation is because we want to make 21 sure that a tenant isn't paying to an owner 22 who knows they're being foreclosed upon, they 23 stopped paying their mortgage, and they're 24 just pocketing the tenant's money.
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(518) 371-8910 1 This way it forces the person who's 2 now taking over the property to know who's 3 there and to properly collect rent from that 4 tenant through a newly appointed management 5 agent, in the case of a bank, or move to clear 6 the property in a timely fashion. 7 SENATOR SALAND: But has not 8 under this section -- 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Saland, do you want Senator Klein to 11 continue to yield? 12 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, Madam 13 President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Senator Klein, do you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR KLEIN: I'll continue to 17 yield, Madam President. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Has not, under 19 this section, ownership changed hands? I'm 20 looking at, on this page, Section 1305. This 21 is the section that deals with the change of 22 ownership, does it not? 23 SENATOR KLEIN: When property 24 actually changes hands. But this is also in
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(518) 371-8910 1 the case of someone who wasn't served at all 2 as far as the 30-day notice that there was a 3 foreclosure proceeding. 4 SENATOR SALAND: So if the 5 Senator will continue to yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Klein, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 9 I'll be happy to continue to yield. 10 SENATOR SALAND: If your concern 11 is that this tenant unknowingly is going to 12 pay his or her former landlord -- I'll 13 rephrase it. Is your concern that this tenant 14 will unknowingly pay his or her former 15 landlord? 16 SENATOR KLEIN: That's correct. 17 SENATOR SALAND: Is that's what's 18 driving this? 19 SENATOR KLEIN: That's correct. 20 SENATOR SALAND: If the Senator 21 will continue to yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator, do you continue to yield? 24 SENATOR KLEIN: I'll continue to
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(518) 371-8910 1 yield. 2 SENATOR SALAND: If in fact that 3 is your concern, then why does this not say 4 that the tenant should not have to pay rent 5 twice, if they can establish, by way of 6 adequate documentation, that they paid that 7 month's rent to the prior landlord, instead of 8 being put in a position where the tenant may 9 not have paid the rent and the new incoming 10 landlord in effect has to give this tenant a 11 30-day grace period and the only person who 12 gains is the tenant? 13 And if in fact you want the 14 landlord to do something about improving the 15 quality of the premises that have just been 16 foreclosed, we're denying him, it, her the 17 capital to be able to do that. 18 SENATOR KLEIN: Through you, 19 Madam President, that would create two 20 burdens. 21 In other words, what we're trying 22 to do here is first make sure the new owner -- 23 in many cases it's going to be a lending 24 institution -- knows who's in the premises and
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(518) 371-8910 1 not force an individual -- in other words, I 2 want them to move quickly to establish that, 3 hey, first there's a foreclosure proceeding, 4 and also now it's our property, and stop 5 paying the old landlord who hasn't paid their 6 mortgage in quite some time. 7 If an individual tenant wants to 8 bring an action against the previous owner for 9 taking the money under false pretenses or 10 fraud, they have the right to do that also. 11 This legislation would merely force 12 the lending institution or the new owner to 13 move quickly and let the tenant know, Hey, 14 this is who you should be paying, I'm not that 15 person who we just foreclosed upon. 16 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you. 17 Thank you, Senator Klein. 18 Madam President, on the bill. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator Saland, on the bill. 21 SENATOR SALAND: The point that I 22 was attempting to make in our last exchange 23 was that in fact it's the new landlord -- 24 whether it be someone who took the property
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(518) 371-8910 1 pursuant to a deed in lieu of foreclosure, 2 whether it be a lending institution, whether 3 it be a short sale -- that it's a new landlord 4 who is effectively being told that they have 5 to subsidize the tenant for 30 days, when the 6 egregious party, for lack of any other term, 7 is the party who failed to pay their mortgage, 8 by reason of which we now have this 9 foreclosure proceeding. 10 I certainly am not unsympathetic to 11 somebody who finds themselves in a situation 12 where their property is being foreclosed or, 13 for that matter, a tenant who is on property 14 that's in a two-, three-, four- or five-unit 15 residence. 16 I would add it was just yesterday 17 morning I was watching the Today show, a 18 portion of the Today show, and the very 19 subject matter that was being discussed was 20 foreclosures. And the commentator, the guest 21 who was discussing foreclosures was talking 22 about the variety that exists among the states 23 in terms of periods for which it would take to 24 foreclose a property.
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(518) 371-8910 1 And she pointed out that at one 2 extreme you have a state like Georgia, in 3 which this can be done, I think she said, in 4 four weeks -- if not four weeks, she said a 5 month -- and on the other extreme you have 6 states like New York, where it's well over a 7 year before you can conclude a foreclosure 8 proceeding. 9 The effort here is to take a 10 situation in which we already have this 11 extended period far in excess of what is a 12 national average, or among our brother and 13 sister states, and compound the situation even 14 that much more. 15 I'm not quite sure that this does 16 what would hoped to be accomplished. I think 17 it may provide some degree of what I will term 18 window dressing, but I don't think it's going 19 to help us deal with the far more serious 20 issue, which is being attempted to be dealt 21 with at a national level, a federal level. 22 We have made some efforts here in 23 New York over the course of the past year or 24 so to try and provide a better means by which
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(518) 371-8910 1 those threatened with foreclosure can deal 2 with that issue, and certainly some of the 3 provisions that Senator Klein has included in 4 this legislation that he didn't have in his 5 B print I think are intended to build on what 6 we've done here previously by way of 7 legislation. 8 I have very serious reservations 9 about this bill. I don't know if there will 10 be any additional debate, but if there is, I 11 certainly look forward to hearing it. 12 Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Thank you, Senator. 15 Senator DeFrancisco. 16 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator 17 Saland asked all the questions I had. I just 18 want to speak on the bill very briefly. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator DeFrancisco, on the bill. 21 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: One of the 22 areas that I just for the life of me can't 23 understand is that if you're a tenant in a 24 month-by-month tenancy, a landlord can give
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(518) 371-8910 1 you a 30-day notice and you have to vacate or 2 be evicted. If it happens to be, under this 3 bill, a piece of property that's under 4 foreclosure, you now get 90 days and free rent 5 if you're not given another notice that's 6 required by this particular bill. 7 It seems to me the biggest problems 8 with foreclosures -- that, by the way, happen 9 to be properties that happen to be owned by 10 someone other than the tenant. There used to 11 be something called property rights in this 12 state. But to have a situation where we're 13 extending the time to foreclose and even 14 providing something that may be free rent, I 15 thought we were concerned about vacant 16 premises that are left to deteriorate during a 17 foreclosure proceeding. 18 Now, if the person who's 19 foreclosing gets possession of the property 20 and can't evict a month-by-month tenant within 21 30 days, if they have not provided this 22 notice, or in some cases have to nail and mail 23 and never know whether that's going to be 24 sufficient, then we're going to extend the
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(518) 371-8910 1 process. If they don't get rent, then you're 2 going to make sure that the property 3 deteriorates even more. 4 And I think in order to protect 5 tenants who have less protection outside of 6 foreclosure than they do in the foreclosure 7 proceeding, you're just exacerbating a very 8 bad situation. 9 It's important to be concerned 10 about tenant rights, but not to expand them 11 just because of the misfortune of a 12 foreclosure proceeding, especially when the 13 state is seeing more and more properties 14 sitting vacant and also deteriorating and not 15 allowing the person doing the foreclosing to 16 even collect rent if they've made some 17 procedural error. 18 If you've protected the tenant that 19 they don't have to leave the premises because 20 of a procedural error, you should at least 21 require them to pay rent, it seems to me, if 22 you don't want the property to deteriorate. 23 So I have similar problems as were 24 brought up in Senator Saland's questioning,
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(518) 371-8910 1 and I'm also leaning towards and I probably 2 will vote no on this particular bill. 3 Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Does any other member wish to be heard on this 6 bill? 7 Hearing none, the debate is closed. 8 The Secretary will please ring the 9 bells. 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 11. This 12 act shall take effect on the 90th day. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Order in the chamber, please. 15 Call the roll. 16 (The Secretary called the roll.) 17 SENATOR KLEIN: To explain my 18 vote. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator Klein, to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 22 thank you. 23 This legislation is clearly 24 something that I would hope we wouldn't have
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(518) 371-8910 1 to pass here today. But again, as I said 2 earlier, because of the subprime lending 3 crisis and the large number of foreclosures in 4 our state, we identified a new victim, and 5 that's the tenant who rents these spaces. 6 What's happening until this law 7 takes effect is these individuals who paid 8 their rent, played by the rules, are being 9 kicked to the curb with absolutely no notice; 10 I said earlier from three to 10 days. 11 I know Senator Saland mentioned the 12 lengthy process for foreclosure in New York 13 State. And if you look at other states, our 14 process is not as long. As a matter of fact, 15 in California they require that tenants 16 receive 60 days' written notice to vacate 17 property if it is foreclosed, and then it 18 takes approximately 300 days additionally for 19 foreclosure from start to finish. In the 20 state of Wisconsin, it takes about 310 days 21 for foreclosure from start to finish; 22 Illinois, close to 300; and then New Jersey, 23 300 as well. 24 So what we're doing here today is I
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(518) 371-8910 1 think commonsense legislation. First, in 2 response to Senator DeFrancisco, we're not 3 giving free rent to tenants. We're merely 4 asking the lending institution in many cases, 5 or anyone who's foreclosing on this property, 6 to just identify themselves as the owner or 7 the potential owner of this property, so the 8 tenant knows who they can legally pay rent to. 9 So I think, again, this is 10 important legislation. This was brought to my 11 attention by many groups throughout our state. 12 And I think today we're sending a very 13 important message to homeowners and tenants 14 that we're going to understand the predicament 15 you're in, we're going to understand that you 16 need a little more time to find a decent place 17 to live for your families. 18 So I vote yes, Madam President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator Klein to be recorded in the 21 affirmative. 22 Senator DeFrancisco. 23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes, I'm 24 going to vote no.
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(518) 371-8910 1 And just in response to what 2 Senator Klein just said, he said that it's not 3 free rent, it just requires the new owner to 4 give notice to the tenant. But this is the 5 way the bill reads: "A tenant who is not 6 served by this notice required by this section 7 within the time period for service of such 8 notice shall not be liable for any rent from 9 the expiration of such time period until such 10 notice is duly served upon such tenant." So 11 it just seems to me it's more than simply what 12 Senator Klein had said. 13 But more importantly, this I think 14 is just going to expand the right of the 15 tenants more than they had under their 16 original lease or their tenancy,month-to-month 17 tenancy. And as a result, it just seems to me 18 that if you are expanding their rights during 19 a period when you want to make sure a property 20 is occupied and at least kept up so it doesn't 21 deteriorate I think is the opposite of what we 22 should be doing. 23 So I'm going to vote no. 24 Thank you.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator DeFrancisco to be recorded in the 3 negative. 4 Senator Hannon. 5 SENATOR HANNON: Yes, Madam 6 President. I'm going to vote yes on this, if 7 only to encourage the sponsor to keep working 8 on this. 9 Because I do believe the objections 10 that have been raised are accurate, and that 11 this is, while well-intentioned to deal with 12 people who are suffering through no fault of 13 their own through foreclosure, it's going to 14 result in a couple of different things. 15 One would be that lenders are not 16 going to be lending with a statute like this 17 around, since it leaves them in total peril of 18 losing the money they've lent. 19 And second, it almost eviscerates 20 the foreclosure proceeding because it does 21 cover, on page 3, one-to-five-family 22 dwellings. Well, how does a lender know that 23 there's a tenant in a one-family dwelling? 24 They don't have any notice of rental. There
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(518) 371-8910 1 is no label that says the occupant is a 2 renter. And yet if you fail to give them 3 service, the foreclosure is null and void for 4 the section that Senator DeFrancisco just 5 read. 6 So it's a nice idea, and I want to 7 encourage nice ideas. 8 Thank you, Madam President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Hannon will be recorded in the 11 affirmative. 12 Are there any other Senators 13 wishing to explain his or her vote? 14 Announce the results. 15 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 16 the negative on Calendar Number 19 are 17 Senators Alesi, Bonacic, DeFrancisco, Farley, 18 Flanagan, Fuschillo, Golden, Griffo, 19 O. Johnson, Lanza, Larkin, LaValle, Leibell, 20 Libous, Marcellino, McDonald, Nozzolio, 21 Ranzenhofer, Saland, Seward, Skelos, Volker, 22 Winner and Young. 23 Ayes, 37. Nays, 24. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 The bill is passed. 2 The Secretary will read. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 227, by Senator Schneiderman, Senate Print 5 4305, an act to amend the Criminal Procedure 6 Law. 7 SENATOR VOLKER: Explanation. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 An explanation has been requested, Senator 10 Schneiderman. 11 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 12 Madam President. 13 This is a bill that is a part of an 14 effort that we're undertaking to take a look 15 at grand jury practices and processes in the 16 court that impose an undue burden on 17 witnesses, on defendants, on plaintiffs, and 18 on third parties. And this bill very simply 19 shifts the burden of demonstrating why bail 20 should not be exonerated. 21 Currently, under New York State 22 law, if a defendant is brought in, either they 23 can make bail or not make bail. If they don't 24 make bail, then they're incarcerated. If they
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(518) 371-8910 1 make bail, they are released. After 45 days, 2 those who are incarcerated must be let out 3 under the current state of law. 4 However, if you make bail, there's 5 absolutely no pressure on the prosecutor to 6 move forward in an expeditious manner to seek 7 grand jury action. Defendants are routinely 8 brought in over and over again. There really 9 is very little that they can do. 10 So this bill shifts the burden to 11 say that after 45 days a defendant may 12 apply -- it's at the discretion of the 13 defendant -- and a court may grant an order 14 exonerating bail, giving them back their 15 money. The prosecutor is free to show good 16 cause as to why the grand jury hasn't 17 proceeded. 18 The problem now is that the burden 19 is not on the prosecutor to either move 20 forward quickly or to show cause in court why 21 it is taking so long. 22 So this is something that is aimed 23 at increasing efficiency and efficacy and to 24 correct the sort of anomalous situation where
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(518) 371-8910 1 people who don't make bail are out after 2 45 days with no money and no other restraints, 3 whereas someone who does make bail can be 4 dragged out for months and months and months 5 awaiting action in a grand jury over which 6 they have no influence, while the prosecutor 7 who controls whether the grand jury moves 8 forward or not has no burden to proceed. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Thank you, Senator. 11 Senator Volker, why do you rise? 12 SENATOR VOLKER: Madam President, 13 on the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Senator Volker, on the bill. 16 SENATOR VOLKER: Yeah. This bill 17 apparently came, my research shows, from a Law 18 Journal article several years ago that 19 commiserates with the people who are charged 20 in saying, well, their families may have put 21 up the -- have to put up the bail and so 22 forth, and says, you know, we must be more 23 sympathetic to those that are charged with 24 crimes.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Schneiderman, I must say to 2 you that you have handled the Codes Committee 3 with aplomb and dignity and so forth and have 4 managed it very well. However, having said 5 that, you have let out some bills that I had 6 buried for many, many, many, many years. 7 And one of the things that I 8 noticed is that you have had a tendency to be 9 far more supportive of the defendant than the 10 prosecution. And that means that there are 11 victims out there who I think have some real 12 complaints. 13 Here's a problem with this bill 14 that you probably didn't think of, because the 15 Law Journal is a New York City paper. In the 16 rural areas, grand juries do not meet on a 17 regular basis. There are many counties, for 18 instance, in my district where they don't meet 19 on a regular basis. They may not meet for 20 45 days; it's very, very possible. 21 And the result of this is that what 22 this bill will do is create a huge management 23 problem for the district attorneys. In fact, 24 even in New York City and in places where
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(518) 371-8910 1 there are frequent grand juries, shall we say, 2 or continuing grand juries, it will create a 3 real tracking problem for the grand jury and 4 in some ways maybe even the victim, who has 5 got to find out what's going on, won't be able 6 to find out from time to time. 7 Now, yesterday we had a bill that 8 you sponsored that said the court can waive 9 mandatory fees and surcharges. That's all 10 well and good. But on the other hand, what it 11 does is it says that we feel very sorry for 12 certain defendants. But on the other hand, we 13 must understand these people have been charged 14 with crimes. In most cases, they have 15 previously been charged with crimes -- in most 16 cases -- or convicted. 17 It seems to me that the 45-day rule 18 here -- and I understand that the defense 19 attorneys really like this ruling, and they 20 can keep a close eye on these cases and make 21 sure that they can pop in at any given time. 22 And by the way, the local courts in 23 upstate New York will have costs connected 24 with this, because if there's a 45-day rule,
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(518) 371-8910 1 they're going to have to deal with that. 2 I just think that this bill, 3 although well-intentioned, will create a 4 problem for the district attorneys, who are 5 very much opposed to this. In fact, the 6 district attorneys have been very much opposed 7 to most of what has been happening. Certainly 8 the drug reform bill, every district attorney 9 in this state opposed except for one, and, you 10 know, he's a -- well, every district attorney 11 in the state but one opposed the bill. 12 And I think what we've got to 13 realize is that it's up to this Senate, that 14 has always been the defender of the victims, 15 to do everything we can to protect the victims 16 more than or as much as, certainly, as the 17 defendants. And I just think this bill 18 doesn't fit that mold. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Are there any other Senators wishing to be 21 heard on the bill? 22 Senator DeFrancisco. 23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes, on the 24 bill.
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(518) 371-8910 1 We discussed this at great length 2 at the Codes Committee, and I just wanted to 3 raise a couple of points that I think are 4 important in practice. This bill may sound 5 logical on its face, but in practice I don't 6 think it's going to work, and it's going to 7 cause an extremely greater burden on the 8 prosecutors in this state. 9 The rationale I heard yesterday was 10 basically that people who don't have their 11 180.80 hearing or the hearing on probable 12 cause sometimes get released on bail, or if 13 you're in jail and you get released on your 14 own recognizance after 45 days, and therefore 15 if someone is out on bail they should have 16 that 45-day right. 17 But as a practical matter -- and 18 that makes sense, in my mind, as far as when 19 persons are incarcerated and they can't make 20 bail, to have a period of time beyond which 21 they are released. Because it's unfair for 22 people who just can't make bail if the 23 prosecution hasn't prosecuted in an 24 expeditious way.
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(518) 371-8910 1 The problem with this is that if 2 bail is in fact posted, and in many cases on 3 very serious crimes, the district attorney has 4 more time within which to present their case 5 to the grand jury. And what happens 6 oftentimes is those that the more serious 7 crimes, they do need more time to go to the 8 grand jury to present their case and get 9 indictments. 10 And oftentimes the DA's office will 11 concentrate on speed on those cases where 12 people are incarcerated without bail so that 13 they're not released without an indictment and 14 another bail hearing. 15 So what will happen in this 16 situation is that if everybody gets an 17 automatic exoneration of bail after 45 days, 18 on every case the district attorney is going 19 to have to come forward and show why this 20 should not happen. 21 In other words, the burden is on 22 the district attorney's office on every case 23 where someone wants their bail exonerated. 24 Which means they're going to have to move more
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(518) 371-8910 1 quickly without any more resources to indict 2 those cases as well as those cases where 3 people are in jail without bail. 4 And it seems to me shifting the 5 burden when someone is out of jail and already 6 posted bail is not a good idea. If the person 7 is at liberty, they've posted bail, they've 8 already paid their bail bondsman and there's 9 no additional fee as this case is pending, 10 that seems to me sufficient to protect that 11 person's interest, because they're out at 12 liberty. 13 If they want their bail exonerated, 14 they could then go into the court, the 15 defendants can, and make an application to the 16 court. So there's protection. If you feel 17 you need your bail bond exonerated because you 18 need the property released that's the security 19 for the bond, well, you can make an 20 application to the court and the court can 21 release or exonerate the bond. 22 But in every case now, the burden 23 is reversed, requiring the district attorney 24 to do that, show good cause why the bail
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(518) 371-8910 1 should not be exonerated. And in addition, if 2 the bail is exonerated and a defendant is 3 indicted and they do appear before a superior 4 court judge, they are going to most likely 5 have to post bond again -- another fee, more 6 security, and the like. 7 Rather than the bond that was 8 posted preindictment being sufficient to cover 9 the balance of the case, or being deemed to be 10 sufficient bond without having to present any 11 more money or provide any more security. 12 So I guess, in short, the reason 13 I'm against this bill is that the current 14 system works, it protects those people who are 15 in jail and can't make bail by automatic 16 release after a certain period of time. It 17 protects those that are out on bail who 18 certainly have the right to exonerate the bail 19 if they choose to and may have to pay another 20 bond if and when they're indicted. The system 21 works. Why present another burden on the 22 district attorney's office to have to come in 23 every time someone makes an application for 24 bond?
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(518) 371-8910 1 And we talk about repeatedly 2 unfunded mandates, we're not going to burden 3 our localities or our counties with more 4 costs. Well, this is going to be an 5 additional cost. And it's an unfunded 6 mandate, and it just doesn't make good sense 7 from an administration of justice as well. 8 So I'm going to vote no on this 9 bill as well. Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Thank you, Senator. 12 Senator Bonacic. 13 SENATOR BONACIC: Would Senator 14 Schneiderman just yield for a couple of 15 questions? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Schneiderman, do you yield? 18 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, Madam 19 President. 20 SENATOR BONACIC: Have the state 21 district attorneys taken a position on your 22 bill? 23 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: No. 24 Contrary to the assertions earlier today that
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(518) 371-8910 1 they're in opposition, we have received no 2 opposition from the district attorneys to this 3 bill. 4 SENATOR BONACIC: Would you yield 5 to another question, Senator Schneiderman? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Schneiderman, do you continue to 8 yield? 9 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, Madam 10 President. 11 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you, 12 Madam President. 13 Do you have any statistics, say for 14 the last three years, on was the posting of 15 bail for defendants, was it cash or was it 16 bail bond? Would you have any of those 17 statistics, what percentage? 18 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Through 19 you, Madam President, I do not have the 20 statistics. I know that a very high 21 proportion are bail bonds. But we can try and 22 track down some records, if that would please 23 the Senator. 24 SENATOR BONACIC: Would Senator
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(518) 371-8910 1 Schneiderman continue to yield? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Schneiderman, do you continue to 4 yield? 5 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, Madam 6 President. 7 SENATOR BONACIC: In your 8 judgment, as a matter of state policy, what 9 grievance were you trying to alleviate by 10 virtue of your legislation? Was it a 11 financial hardship on the families of the 12 defendant that were posting the bail or put up 13 the cash that they could get their money back 14 sooner? Was that what motivated you to do 15 this legislation? 16 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Through 17 you, Madam President, that was a concern. But 18 I think that this really was more -- because 19 there are many situations where family members 20 or third parties will put up money for 21 someone's bail and then, you know, their money 22 can be held up indefinitely under the current 23 system. And that's what we're seeking to 24 change.
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(518) 371-8910 1 But the focus really is on the fair 2 and efficient administration of justice. 3 You've got to put the burden where the burden 4 belongs. And in this case, where the 5 prosecutor has all the discretion about how 6 fast you move along things to the grand jury, 7 we're just seeking to shift the burden. 8 It's a very similar process to what 9 exists today that someone can go in to seek 10 exoneration of bail today. This doesn't 11 change that, it just shifts the burden so that 12 the prosecutor, who is in total control of how 13 fast the grand jury moves along, will have to 14 bear the burden of showing why it hasn't moved 15 along. Which, incidentally, could include 16 that you're in a rural area or the grand jury 17 is not meeting. That's good cause. 18 So those were the considerations. 19 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you, 20 Senator Schneiderman. 21 On the bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator Bonacic, on the bill. 24 SENATOR BONACIC: I'd like to
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(518) 371-8910 1 associate myself with Senator DeFrancisco. I 2 think the courts are working fine with the 3 judges, the district attorneys, in terms of 4 timeliness. 5 As to Senator Schneiderman's 6 concern about financial hardship, as I 7 understand the process, if I am a defendant 8 for a serious crime and I have to post a bail, 9 let's say a bail of $50,000, usually if I have 10 an asset or my family has an asset, let's say 11 a house, they put their house up and they go 12 to a bail bondsman and they pay that bail 13 bondsman 10 percent premium of $50,000 to get 14 that bond. 15 So in the case that I gave, it 16 might be $5,000 that they would have to pay 17 the bail bondsman for $50,000 worth of a bond 18 to get exonerated. Okay? 19 Now, once the money is paid to the 20 bail bondsman, it's paid. It's never coming 21 back. Because the purpose of the bond is to 22 ensure that you're going to show up at the 23 time of trial, you're not going to flee 24 justice.
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(518) 371-8910 1 So in terms of relieving financial 2 hardship, when that bond premium is paid, 3 you're never get getting it back, because you 4 paid for the bond. So I just want to make 5 that clear. 6 So your concern about alleviating 7 financial hardship, if most of the cases are 8 bonds put up for bail, then your concern is 9 not being achieved. But I just say that in 10 terms of enlightenment as opposed to the 11 reason why I'm voting against this bill. 12 And the main reason is we have 13 communicated with the district attorneys in 14 our area. They think this is a terrible bill. 15 They manage the grand jury; in the rural 16 areas, it works a lot differently. And, you 17 know, there are constitutional objections to a 18 speedy trial that you always have that, a 19 defendant, to make sure that justice delayed 20 is not justice not served. 21 So I think the constitutional 22 protections are there. And I don't think this 23 Legislature should be micromanaging the 24 criminal justice courts.
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(518) 371-8910 1 And another purpose of 2 clarification, Senator Schneiderman alluded to 3 plaintiffs, he alluded to witnesses. I think 4 it's usually the people, no plaintiffs. In 5 criminal justice, it's the people versus the 6 criminal defendant. He's not a criminal yet 7 until he's convicted, the defendant. 8 So for the reasons that I've 9 discussed, I'm voting no. 10 Thank you, Madam President. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Thank you, Senator. 13 Senator Lanza. 14 SENATOR LANZA: Thank you, Madam 15 President. I rise to oppose this legislation. 16 On its face, it may seem like a 17 pretty innocuous piece of legislation. But I 18 think when you put it in the context of how 19 you actually prosecute a crime in this state 20 in our courts, you see the problem that I 21 think will occur if enacted. 22 Let's understand why and when and 23 under which circumstances bail is set. When 24 someone is arrested for a serious crime, a
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(518) 371-8910 1 felony, in this state there's an arraignment. 2 And at that arraignment the prosecutor makes a 3 bail application. The defendant has an 4 opportunity to be heard. A judge reviews the 5 arguments, looks at the defendant's past 6 history, if there is one, the defendant's rap 7 sheet, and sets bail only if it is determined 8 that the defendant who is charged with a 9 felony, a serious crime, presents a flight 10 risk. That's why we have bail set. 11 There's due process, it occurs at 12 the arraignment, the rap sheet is looked at. 13 Perhaps we have a defendant who has committed 14 crimes in the past who has not shown up to 15 court, there are bench warrants issued. All 16 that is considered. And in the interests of 17 protecting the people and the process, bail is 18 only set when the court decides that this 19 defendant cannot be trusted to return to court 20 during the pendency of the prosecution. 21 And it works. Most of the time. 22 Could you imagine if in the Bernie Madoff case 23 you had bail set -- because given the 24 circumstances of the case, you're not supposed
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(518) 371-8910 1 to actually consider the underlying crime, 2 whether it's murder or burglary or robbery. 3 But in fact, as a matter of practice, it is 4 factored in, the theory being that the more 5 serious the crime, the more serious the 6 ultimate potential penalty, the higher the 7 flight risk that is presented. 8 So could you imagine in the case of 9 Bernie Madoff, when all that money is being 10 stolen, when you have a person of means who 11 can hop on a plane and go anywhere he wants, 12 if he so chooses, to avoid and evade justice? 13 Could you imagine bail being set in that case 14 after 45 days for no reason except that 15 45 days have passed, that all of a sudden, 16 automatically, bail is exonerated? 17 Do you think Bernie Madoff would 18 continue to come to court? Or do you think he 19 would take off on a plane and go to the 20 corners of the earth and evade justice? Of 21 course that's what Bernie Madoff would do. 22 Now, you might say, well, that's a 23 white-collar crime, it only involved the 24 bilking of Americans and their financial
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(518) 371-8910 1 circumstances. But the same would occur in 2 serious cases of rape, murder, burglary, 3 robbery. It is bail that in many cases keeps 4 a defendant returning to court to face 5 justice. 6 Remember, this is a defendant who 7 is not in jail. Their liberty is not being 8 denied at this point. They're free to come 9 and go, in most cases, but they must return to 10 court. And it's because they have bail 11 hanging over their heads. 12 It's been said that this is so that 13 we can shift the burden to the prosecution. 14 The burden is already there. The people, the 15 prosecutors who represent the people, they 16 already have the burden of making the argument 17 for bail. 18 And if there are truly changed 19 circumstances within those 45 days -- then, 20 going back to the Bernie Madoff case, a very 21 complicated case, there's a reason why you 22 might not have an indictment in 45 days. You 23 need to marshal the evidence, speak to the 24 witnesses. Very complicated case.
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(518) 371-8910 1 To force the prosecution to rush, 2 to rush to the grand jury to seek an 3 indictment simply to avoid having the 4 defendant released -- which would happen under 5 this legislation -- would not, I think, be 6 consistent with the administration of justice 7 in this state. 8 But in the case where I think the 9 sponsor of the bill I think is focusing on the 10 fact that perhaps after 45 days we don't have 11 an indictment, perhaps it means that the 12 prosecution really doesn't have a good case or 13 is sitting on their hands or is not really 14 doing their job properly on behalf of the 15 people. Or that something has changed with 16 respect to new evidence that suggests that 17 maybe this is a case that we will not have an 18 indictment within the statutory 30/30 speedy 19 trial time -- six months, by the way, as has 20 been said. 21 Well, then, the system already 22 allows for the defendant to appear before the 23 court, under the present law, and make new 24 application and present that argument. And it
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(518) 371-8910 1 occurs all the time in this state. If that is 2 really what has occurred, we have those 3 changed circumstances, that argument can be 4 made right now. 5 And quite often a judge will look 6 at that new evidence, those changed 7 circumstances, and sometimes the prosecutor 8 even agrees and removes or agrees with bail 9 being lifted and the case continues until and 10 if there's an indictment. So we have the 11 ability to do that under the present law. 12 There's another issue here, and 13 it's cost. By setting an arbitrary date of 14 45 days -- again, there's no rhyme or reason 15 as to why we're selecting 45 days as the time 16 in which a prosecutor must bring an indictment 17 or else bail is going to be exonerated -- that 18 would mean that we'd have to have another 19 forced court date 45 days after the 20 arraignment of every felony case in this 21 state. 22 Which would mean you'd have to 23 bring the defendant back, you'd have to bring 24 the people back, the defense attorney back,
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(518) 371-8910 1 often Legal Aid or court-appointed. You'd 2 have to have yet another case put on the 3 calendar in our already clogged criminal 4 justice system. 5 And we're not talking about a few, 6 we're talking about thousands, tens of 7 thousands of new court dates that will have to 8 result because of this legislation. I don't 9 see a fiscal statement, but I can tell you the 10 cost to this state will be enormous, will be 11 enormous, simply because we're going to have 12 to drag people back to court so that we could 13 automatically remove bail. 14 I think when you look at this piece 15 of legislation, which I believe will result in 16 more bench warrants being ordered, more felons 17 evading justice, more defendants not returning 18 to court -- I think when you put this in the 19 context of the legislation which reduced the 20 sentence on many very serious drug crimes in 21 this state, when you put it in the context, 22 together with that, with the downturn in the 23 economy and with some of the other measures 24 I've seen pass the Assembly already and maybe
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(518) 371-8910 1 coming before this house, I believe that 2 together they represent the gathering storm 3 clouds of a new crime wave in this state. And 4 I think it's something that we need to be 5 very, very mindful of. 6 There's a reason why bail is set on 7 very serious felony cases. I know one of the 8 arguments with respect to why 45 days is that 9 because in the law as it exists today, if 10 you're incarcerated, if your liberty has been 11 taken from you during the pendency of a felony 12 case, where you haven't either made bail or 13 you're held without bail because of the 14 serious risk of flight that you presented, 15 that if a DA's office, if the prosecutor 16 doesn't bring an indictment within 45 days, 17 you're released. 18 That makes more sense. Your 19 liberty has been taken, you're incarcerated. 20 I think under those circumstances, everyone 21 agrees that we might want to put an extra 22 burden on the people to give an extra 23 incentive to the prosecutor to bring that 24 indictment. And if you haven't done that in
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(518) 371-8910 1 45 days, then I think we can all agree that it 2 does make sense that at that point you ought 3 to be released. 4 But that I don't think is the right 5 analogy with respect to what's happening here. 6 In these cases, defendants are already out, 7 they're not incarcerated. It is the bail 8 which is set in order to provide an incentive 9 to have them return to court. I think by just 10 automatically and arbitrarily removing that 11 bail will result in many, many felons in this 12 state evading justice. 13 And that's why I oppose this 14 legislation, Madam President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Thank you, Senator. 17 Are there any other Senators 18 wishing to comment on the bill? 19 Senator Morahan. 20 SENATOR MORAHAN: Is it too late 21 to ask the sponsor to yield? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator Schneiderman, will you yield? 24 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, Madam
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(518) 371-8910 1 President. 2 SENATOR MORAHAN: Senator, I just 3 want some clarifications on some of the 4 aspects of this bill. 5 If, for example, we don't have a 6 grand jury meeting regularly or whatever, 7 certainly the judge still has the ability, 8 upon application by the prosecution, to 9 continue the bail. 10 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Through 11 you, Madam President, I really think the scope 12 of the change that will be made by this 13 legislation is really, I think, being 14 overstated. 15 A grand jury that is not meeting 16 because you're in a rural area where it 17 doesn't meet regularly, that clearly would 18 constitute good cause for a judge to say yes, 19 you're not getting your bail exonerated. 20 Currently, if you want your bail 21 exonerated, you make an application to the 22 court. Under this bill, if you want your bail 23 exonerated, you make an application to the 24 court. It just shifts the burden. But under
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(518) 371-8910 1 this legislation, if there is good cause 2 shown, the court has to deny the exoneration 3 of bail. 4 So if there's a problem that the 5 grand jury isn't meeting regularly enough, 6 good cause shown. That is absolutely 7 protected under this legislation. 8 SENATOR MORAHAN: May I continue 9 to ask the Senator to yield? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Senator Schneiderman, do you continue to 12 yield? 13 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, Madam 14 President. 15 SENATOR MORAHAN: So in other 16 words, Senator, if a situation arises that 17 would allow someone to apply to get off bail, 18 so to speak, after 45 days because there's 19 been no grand jury finding, the judge still 20 has the discretion upon that application to 21 continue bail for whatever reasons the judge 22 feels is the right reason? 23 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Through 24 you, Madam President, absolutely. This is
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(518) 371-8910 1 something that requires a defendant to make an 2 application. 3 And again, today, before we enact 4 this bill, the defendant can also make an 5 application. This just shifts the burden that 6 the prosecutor has a little more 7 responsibility for justifying why things are 8 taking so long. That's all this does. But 9 the judge absolutely has discretion to deny 10 the exoneration. 11 SENATOR MORAHAN: Thank you, 12 Senator. 13 Thank you, Madam President. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Thank you, Senator Morahan. 16 Are there any other Senators 17 wishing to be heard on the bill? 18 Hearing none, the debate is closed. 19 The Secretary will please ring the 20 bells. 21 Read the last section. 22 THE SECRETARY: Section 3. This 23 act shall take effect immediately. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Call the roll. 2 (The Secretary called the roll.) 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Announce the results. 5 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 6 the negative on Calendar Number 227 are 7 Senators Alesi, Bonacic, DeFrancisco, Farley, 8 Flanagan, Fuschillo, Golden, Griffo, Hannon, 9 O. Johnson, Lanza, Larkin, LaValle, Leibell, 10 Libous, Marcellino, Maziarz, McDonald, 11 Nozzolio, Padavan, Ranzenhofer, Robach, 12 Saland, Seward, Skelos, Volker, Winner and 13 Young. 14 Ayes, 33. Nays, 28. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 The bill is passed. 17 Senator Klein, that completes the 18 controversial reading of the active bills on 19 the calendar. 20 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 21 can you please recognize Senator Ruth 22 Hassell-Thompson for an announcement, and then 23 Senator Padavan. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Hassell-Thompson. 2 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank 3 you, Madam Chair. 4 There will be an immediate meeting 5 of the Majority Conference in the Majority 6 Conference Room, Room 332. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Senator Padavan. 9 SENATOR PADAVAN: Madam 10 President, there will be an immediate meeting 11 of the Dalai Lama's preferred party, the 12 Republican Party, in Room 315. 13 (Laughter.) 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Senator Klein. 16 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 17 at this time can we please stand at ease. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Thank you, Senator Klein. 20 There will be an immediate meeting 21 of the Majority Conference in Room 332, and 22 immediate meeting of the Minority Conference 23 in their conference room. 24 We stand at ease.
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(518) 371-8910 1 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 2 ease at 1:32 p.m.) 3 (Whereupon, the Senate reconvened 4 at 5:21 p.m.) 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Senator Klein. 7 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 8 I'd like to announce a 5:30 Rules Committee 9 meeting. And after that, we'll proceed with 10 session. 11 We'll stand at ease pending the 12 report of the Rules Committee. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 There will be a 5:30 Rules Committee meeting 15 in the Majority Conference Room, Room 332. 16 And the Senate will stand at ease 17 pending the report of the Rules Committee. 18 (Whereupon, the Senate stood at 19 ease at 5:22 p.m.) 20 (Whereupon, the Senate reconvened 21 at 5:54 p.m.) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Majority Leader Smith. 24 SENATOR SMITH: Yes, Madam
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(518) 371-8910 1 President. Can we return to the order of 2 reports of standing committees. I believe 3 there is a report of the Rules Committee at 4 the desk. I'd like to have it read at this 5 time. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Smith, there is a report of the Rules 8 Committee here at the desk. 9 The Secretary will read. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith, 11 from the Committee on Rules, reports the 12 following bill direct to third reading: 13 Senate Print 5451, by Senator 14 Dilan, an act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic 15 Law. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Smith. 18 SENATOR SMITH: Yes, Madam 19 President, at this time can we please take up 20 Supplemental Calendar 43A. 21 SENATOR LIBOUS: Point of order. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator Smith, might you want to move for the 24 adoption of the Rules Committee report?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR SMITH: I move that we 2 accept the report of the Rules Committee. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 All those in favor of adopting the report of 5 the Rules Committee please signify by saying 6 aye. 7 (Response of "Aye.") 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Opposed, nay. 10 (Response of "Nay.") 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 The report of the Rules Committee is accepted. 13 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Madam 14 President. At this time can we please take up 15 Supplemental Calendar 43A. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 The Secretary will read. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 286, by Senator Dilan, Senate Print 5451, an 20 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 21 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside, 22 please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 The bill is laid aside.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Smith. 2 SENATOR SMITH: Yes, Madam 3 President. At this time can we go to the 4 reading of the controversial calendar. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 We will move to the reading of the 7 controversial calendar. 8 The Secretary will read. 9 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 10 286, by Senator Dilan, Senate Print 5451, an 11 act to amend the Vehicle and Traffic Law. 12 SENATOR SMITH: Madam President, 13 is there a message of necessity at the desk? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Yes, Senator Smith, there is a message of 16 necessity. It has been received from the 17 Governor, and it is here at the desk. 18 SENATOR SMITH: Then I move to 19 accept the message of necessity. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 Senator Libous. 23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Could we please 24 have a roll call on the message of necessity?
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 All those Senators in favor of accepting the 3 message of necessity please signify by raising 4 your hands. 5 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 6 point of order. I'd like to raise a point of 7 order, please. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Senator Libous. 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Do the rules not 11 state for a roll call that members have to be 12 in their seats? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Libous, yes, they do. 15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Madam 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 18 Announce the results. 19 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 32. Nays, 20 29. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 The message of necessity is accepted. 23 The bill is before the house. 24 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation,
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(518) 371-8910 1 please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 An explanation has been requested, Senator 4 Dilan. 5 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 6 President. 7 This is a program bill from the 8 Governor of the State of New York. It's known 9 as the MTA Financial and Reform Package. 10 This bill generates revenues from 11 five different sources, and over the course of 12 two years it would generate $2.9 billion. 13 These revenues would only apply to the 14 Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District, 15 which is a 12-county region that includes 16 New York City and the five boroughs. It also 17 includes the County of Nassau, Suffolk, 18 Rockland, Westchester, Orange, Putnam, and 19 Dutchess Counties. 20 The five sources are the new 21 license fee, which would be a $1 flat fee on 22 all licenses, and that's $1 per six months or 23 $2 over the course of a year. This was done 24 because it is easier for DMV to implement and
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(518) 371-8910 1 collect on per six months the validity of the 2 driver's license. This will generate, in a 3 full year, $27 million. This current fiscal 4 year it will generate $6 million. 5 This increased fee of $16 above the 6 rate set by the state budget on D licenses 7 will cost, for example, $78.50 for all 8 eight-year renewals. 9 It also has another component to 10 car registrations and reregistrations. There 11 will be a $25 per year increase, and this will 12 be imposed on registrations and 13 reregistrations of all motor vehicles. It 14 will raise $47 million in 2009 and $141 15 million in 2010. 16 The third component is the 17 Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Mobility 18 Tax, otherwise known as the payroll tax. The 19 tax is 34 cents per $100 of income. It is 20 imposed on all payrolls of more than 2500. 21 And also, if you are self-employed, it would 22 be a payroll of more than $10,000 for an 23 individual who is self-employed. 24 And this would be effective March 1
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(518) 371-8910 1 of this year, meaning it would be retroactive 2 to March 1st. It will raise approximately 3 $1 billion in 2009 and $1.5 billion in 2010. 4 The rate of 34 cents per $100 of 5 income applies to all 12 counties of the 6 region. State Tax and Finance will be 7 collected on a biweekly basis; the MTA will be 8 paid monthly. 9 School districts will be reimbursed 10 annually; that is, the school districts within 11 the 12-county region. The tax applies only 12 that applies only to public schools. Schools 13 are reimbursed upon approval of the 2010 14 budget, and the tax is effective on these 15 public schools beginning September 1st for 16 these particular schools. 17 The next charge is the taxi 18 surplus. It's a 50-cent-per-trip charge on 19 all medallion taxicabs, and that would be in 20 New York City only. If a cab leaves the 21 region, the tax will not apply. Also, cab 22 owners will be liable for paying the drop-off 23 charge of 50 cents. And this drop-off charge 24 will yield $85 million in a fully annualized
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(518) 371-8910 1 year. In the current fiscal year, it will 2 generate $14 million. 3 There's also -- and it's the last 4 component, the fifth component -- a car rental 5 fee. And that charge will be 5 percent on all 6 rentals of passenger vehicles within the 7 12-county region. And it will generate 8 $18 million in 2009, and it will generate 9 $35 million in 2010. 10 The bill also creates the MTA 11 Financial Assistance Fund. The fund is 12 subject to appropriation by the Legislature, 13 and it consists of two accounts. The first 14 account is the Mobility Trust Fund Account, 15 and the second is the Metropolitan 16 Transportation Authority Aid Trust Fund. 17 Also included within this piece of 18 legislation is the accountability portion and 19 the reforms. And if it's okay with you, Madam 20 President, I would like to defer to Senator 21 Perkins to explain that portion of the bill. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator Perkins. 24 SENATOR PERKINS: Thank you very
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(518) 371-8910 1 much. 2 I just want to point out that as we 3 have attempted to tackle the financial needs 4 of the system, we've also looked at other 5 aspects that are just as much of a concern to 6 the consumer and obviously to the region. In 7 particular, we looked at some measures related 8 to the governance of the MTA -- in other 9 words, looking for more transparency and 10 accountability -- and several measures are 11 part of the legislation that speak to that in 12 terms of preventing abuse, providing more 13 transparency, reporting and accountability, 14 improving the governance of the MTA, enhancing 15 the process for the five-year plan, targeting 16 MTA contracts. 17 And so I think that the legislation 18 begins to be more comprehensive just beyond 19 the financial needs but also in terms of some 20 of the other concerns that so many members 21 have raised about how do we make the MTA a 22 more responsive, a more accountable, a more 23 transparent agency for the sake of the folks 24 in the region and obviously for the sake of
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(518) 371-8910 1 the state. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator DeFrancisco. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Yes, I 5 don't know who to ask this of, Senator Dilan 6 or Senator Perkins. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Who would you like to yield? 9 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Actually, 10 I'd like Senator Smith to yield, because it's 11 about procedure. If he chooses to. Would he 12 yield, Senator Smith? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Smith has not spoken on the bill, so 15 therefore your request is not in order. 16 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: All right, 17 then I'll ask Senator Perkins if he would 18 yield to a question. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator Perkins, will you yield for a 21 question? 22 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, by all 23 means. 24 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator,
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(518) 371-8910 1 you just mentioned the transparency in this 2 bill, and we've heard transparency throughout 3 the budget process and the need for reform. 4 May I ask you if it's fair to say 5 that this particular bill was generated by 6 private negotiations between Senator Smith, 7 Assembly Speaker Silver, and the Governor, and 8 these negotiations were all behind closed 9 doors? 10 SENATOR PERKINS: There's no 11 question -- through you, Madam President, 12 there's no question that they played an 13 important role in this process. 14 But I do know that we've had 15 several hearings by the Transportation 16 Committee, by my committee. We've gotten 17 input from members actually in terms of 18 committee meetings here in Albany, from 19 members particularly in the most recent 20 hearing, a meeting in which there was a lot of 21 concern expressed about transparency and 22 accountability and the intractability of the 23 MTA especially in the past when you were in 24 the majority, so to speak.
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(518) 371-8910 1 And so we thought we would take 2 that into consideration and try to capture it 3 in the legislation you have before you. 4 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Will 5 Senator Perkins yield to another question? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Perkins, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes. Yes. 9 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator 10 Perkins, isn't it fair to say that this bill 11 was just printed and handed out at 12 approximately 3:15 or 3:30 this afternoon? 13 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes. 14 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would 15 Senator Perkins yield to another question? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Perkins, do you continue to yield? 18 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, I do. 19 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator 20 Perkins, in order to vote on this particular 21 bill it was necessary for the Governor to 22 provide to us a message of necessity to pass a 23 bill three hours after it was printed. And a 24 message of necessity that really waives the at
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(518) 371-8910 1 least three days that people should be able to 2 react to the bill. 3 Do you find that troubling at all? 4 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 5 Madam President, there's no question that the 6 urgency of the matter dictated a process, a 7 procedure that called for a message of 8 necessity. A practice that I don't think is 9 unique in this case in this particular body, 10 at least in my short period of time here, 11 whereby such immediate type of action was 12 necessary, and has proven in the past to be an 13 approach that provided for the kind of 14 dialogue and the kind of debate that's taking 15 place now. And also, you know, the media that 16 has also helped to get the information out. 17 So while there are more ideal 18 circumstances, the urgency of the matter 19 obviously called for us to use the process 20 that we're using. I think that nevertheless 21 it will provide the kind of opportunity to 22 become fully familiar with these issues. 23 After all, this crisis is not new to us. And, 24 in fact, we've been deliberating on this for
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(518) 371-8910 1 some time now one way or another. 2 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Would 3 Senator Perkins yield to another question? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Perkins, do you continue to yield? 6 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes. Through 7 you, Madam President. 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: Senator 9 Perkins, last year when the Senate rules came 10 out, there was an amendment request in order 11 to amend the rules so that we do away with the 12 message of necessity. And that was brought by 13 the Democrat minority at that time. 14 Did you vote for that? 15 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 16 Madam President. I would like to focus on the 17 bill and the legislation before us as the most 18 relevant question. 19 However, assuming that I did, as 20 you suggest, vote for it, I think it's not 21 quite as germane as what is in front of us 22 with respect to this particular bill. 23 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: On the 24 bill.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator DeFrancisco, on the bill. 3 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I think 4 that explanation was transparent enough to the 5 voters of this state. There were votes, there 6 were attempts by the then Senate minority 7 Democrats to do away with this process, 8 because we need more transparency so the 9 public can react. So that these businesses 10 that are going to get killed under this bill 11 can react and actually mount up some kind of 12 opposition. Or the school districts that 13 aren't going to be reimbursed, the parochial 14 schools, can mount some kind of campaign 15 against the bill. Or the districts that are 16 being hit very hard in other ways can react to 17 it. 18 That was what was requested. There 19 was a lawsuit brought by Senator Liz Krueger 20 and others demanding that the system stop. 21 And we have a reform commission headed by 22 Senator Valesky where we're going to make sure 23 that their campaign promises were -- the 24 Senate Democrats' campaign promises were in
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(518) 371-8910 1 fact fulfilled. 2 We have had two major bills, series 3 of major bills for the budget, and we needed 4 messages of necessity for some of them. It 5 was negotiated by three New York City 6 Democrats in a room. 7 We have a multi-billion-dollar bill 8 that we're voting on today that was handed to 9 us about three hours ago, also requiring a 10 message of necessity. And in the bill it 11 apparently has some new transparency 12 provisions which we'll get to when we discuss 13 the specific bills. But the whole process is 14 anything but transparent, in that it was 15 negotiated by the same three New York City 16 Democrats in a room. 17 And that's contrary to what was 18 promised and what was demanded by the now 19 Senate Majority during their campaign to take 20 over the majority. And to suggest that we've 21 debated this bill, we've gotten input from 22 various people, is just not the case. It's 23 simply not the case. 24 And as a result, no matter what
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(518) 371-8910 1 this bill says, the process is flawed, it's 2 contrary to what was demanded by the Senate 3 Majority, and it's simply wrong. And to say 4 that there's circumstances that are such that 5 we've got to do it right now -- this issue has 6 been before this house by the MTA since the 7 beginning of the year. To suggest that now we 8 have to do it because there's an emergency to 9 get it done today is nonsense. 10 The real reason is the new Majority 11 doesn't want this out there so that the people 12 who are against it can start lobbying against 13 them and have some real input to try to end 14 this bill or try terminate this bill or avoid 15 having this bill passed to the detriment of 16 our communities. 17 So the process concerns me, but the 18 substance is just as bad, and other Senators 19 will get into that. 20 Thank you. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 Senator Flanagan. 23 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Thank you, 24 Madam President. I would ask Senator Dilan if
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(518) 371-8910 1 he would yield. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Dilan, will you yield for questions? 4 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 5 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Senator Dilan, 6 I was listening to you in your opening remarks 7 in explaining the bill, and you referenced 8 that this was a program bill at the request of 9 the Governor, and you and Senator Perkins are 10 the prime sponsors. 11 I just want to reiterate that this 12 is a program bill from the Governor of the 13 State of New York. 14 SENATOR DILAN: That is correct. 15 SENATOR FLANAGAN: I would like 16 to ask you a series of questions relative to a 17 policy that was enacted most recently by the 18 Governor of our state through an executive 19 order on April 27th of this year, and that had 20 to do with mandate relief and the imposition 21 of mandates on local governments. 22 I was wondering if you were 23 familiar with that executive order. 24 SENATOR DILAN: Through you,
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(518) 371-8910 1 Madam President, I am not going to respond to 2 any particular policy or executive orders of 3 the Governor. I will respond to questions 4 within this bill. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Senator Flanagan. 7 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Madam 8 President, maybe I can rephrase my question so 9 that it makes more sense, because it clearly 10 relates to this bill. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 14 President. 15 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Madam 16 President, last week the Governor of the State 17 of New York came out with an executive order 18 about mandate relief. It spoke to imposing 19 more mandates on local governments and came 20 through with a very clear process that we have 21 advocated on this side of the aisle for a 22 number of years, but that now was implemented 23 through the imposition of an executive order. 24 It is directly related to the bill
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(518) 371-8910 1 that is before us, because if we ever had to 2 look up "mandate" and try to find a picture of 3 it or a definition of it, this bill is the 4 quintessential mandate. Whether you're a 5 not-for-profit, you're a library or a 6 municipality, you're a school district, you're 7 a small business employer, this is a brand-new 8 multi-billion-dollar mandate being imposed by 9 the Senate Democrats, the Assembly Democrats, 10 and the Governor of the State of New York. 11 In that executive order, the 12 Governor had laid out a number of criteria 13 that have to accompany any piece of 14 legislation that is either put forth by a 15 state agency -- as defined by the Governor, 16 not by this body, as any public authority -- 17 and it is clearly a program bill. It has to 18 do with the Metropolitan Transportation 19 Authority, which is a public authority, 20 defined as a state agency in that executive 21 order. 22 So my question is absolutely 23 relevant to this bill. And I would ask 24 Senator Dilan, pursuant to that executive
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(518) 371-8910 1 order, if he has a local fiscal impact 2 statement from the Governor's office that 3 accompanies this bill. 4 SENATOR DILAN: Well, I don't. I 5 read to you what this particular bill 6 generates. 7 And then again, if you're asking 8 about the Governor's executive order, I'm not 9 prepared to answer that question. 10 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Madam 11 President, is there anybody in the Senate 12 Majority who is prepared to answer a question 13 relative to the executive requirements that 14 are supposed to accompany this legislation 15 that they are advancing? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Flanagan, I think you should direct 18 your question to a Senator and then we can 19 have that Senator yield. 20 SENATOR FLANAGAN: I would ask 21 Senator Smith if he would yield. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Again, as we noted when Senator DeFrancisco 24 asked for Senator Smith to yield, since
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Smith has not spoken on the bill, he 2 would not be the appropriate person to yield. 3 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Well, Senator 4 Smith introduced the bill. If he prefers not 5 to yield, maybe then the chairman of the 6 Senate Finance Committee, Senator Kruger, 7 would yield, inasmuch as this deals with 8 fiscal implications for the state. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Skelos, why do you rise? 11 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 12 just a point of order. 13 I was wondering, when Senator Smith 14 moved to accept the message of necessity, 15 whether that's essentially speaking on the 16 bill, the message of necessity to bring the 17 bill to the floor. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 His exchange was because he is the chairman of 20 the Rules Committee, and it was in that 21 capacity that he spoke. 22 SENATOR FLANAGAN: So, Madam 23 President, I take it that Senator Smith is 24 refusing to yield unless he has spoken on the
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(518) 371-8910 1 bill. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Flanagan, certainly there's no 4 refusal. What is being stated is that the 5 question regarding the executive order and the 6 Governor's executive order will not be the 7 subject of this discourse as we discuss the 8 bill. 9 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Madam 10 President, with all due respect, it will be 11 the subject of this discourse, and I will 12 speak on the bill and raise these points in 13 that context. 14 And I'm going to make it very clear 15 I'm going to speak on the bill because 16 apparently there's nobody on the Senate 17 Majority side who is willing to yield to a 18 series of questions on something that is 19 extremely important to everybody in the State 20 of New York, regardless of where you live. 21 So I will detail the executive 22 order that I again would state is directly 23 related to this bill -- 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Flanagan, on the bill. 2 SENATOR FLANAGAN: -- issued by 3 the Governor on April 27th of 2009, and it 4 contains the following basic points: That no 5 state agency shall recommend, publish, or 6 submit any regulation containing a mandate 7 without an accounting of the impact of such 8 mandate on local governments. 9 It goes on to further say that any 10 bill containing a mandate that was offered by 11 a state agency -- which is exactly defined by 12 the executive order -- to the Legislature must 13 be accompanied by a local fiscal impact 14 statement. 15 It also goes on to say that there 16 has to be an estimate of the present and 17 future cost of compliance, a description of 18 the methodology used to estimate such present 19 and future cost impacts, and a summary of the 20 inputs sought and obtained from the affected 21 local governments and a cost-benefit analysis 22 of such mandate. 23 Now, this didn't come from Senator 24 Skelos, it didn't come from Senator Dilan, it
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(518) 371-8910 1 didn't come from me, it came from the Governor 2 of the State of New York. So I would expect, 3 in fulfilling his obligations and duties and 4 in working with the Legislature, that he would 5 bring forth the background material so that we 6 as legislators, and in turn our constituents 7 in the public, would be able to see exactly 8 the criteria that we use. What's the 9 methodology, what's the cost-benefit analysis, 10 how do they believe that this will affect 11 not-for-profits, how does the Governor believe 12 this will affect libraries, how does the 13 Governor believe this will affect small 14 employers. 15 But the problem is nobody wants to 16 deal with that. And you know what, that's too 17 bad. Because if people are uncomfortable, 18 that's part of the process that we're dealing 19 with right now. It goes to the core of what 20 Senator DeFrancisco spoke to about 21 transparency and disclosure. 22 Separate point. I would ask -- and 23 I'm going to preface this by saying I realize 24 that she has not spoken on the bill, but I'm
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(518) 371-8910 1 asking as a courtesy, because I have an 2 education-related question. I'm asking the 3 chair of the Senate Education Committee, 4 Senator Oppenheimer, if she would yield to a 5 question. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 The request, Senator Flanagan, is out of 8 order. If you would want to continue to 9 speak -- 10 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Madam 11 President, that is a strict interpretation of 12 the rule. I'm asking as a courtesy if the 13 Senate Education Committee chair would yield 14 on an education-related question. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Klein, why do you rise? 17 SENATOR KLEIN: Madam President, 18 point of order. 19 According to Rule 9.4B, it shall 20 not be in order for a Senator with right to 21 the floor to ask another Senator to yield to a 22 question unless such Senator has previously 23 spoken in the debate on the matter. So that's 24 the section, Madam President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Madam 2 President, I'll just continue on the bill. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 On the bill, Senator Flanagan. 5 SENATOR FLANAGAN: And I actually 6 do hope that our constituents are watching 7 this, because here's my question. I'll ask it 8 rhetorically, since nobody is apparently 9 willing to answer it. 10 On page 13 of the bill, there's 11 language, lines 35 to 43, Section 2A, that 12 talks about the suspension of the school 13 payroll tax that would be paid by our school 14 districts. It says if we don't have the money 15 through an appropriation that there would be a 16 six-month suspension for school districts from 17 making that payment. But thereafter, there's 18 no suspension, and they have to keep paying it 19 no matter what we do in terms of money. 20 So if we don't come up with the 21 money, we give a hiatus, not unlike the car 22 companies are doing right now for people who 23 lose their jobs. But after a certain point, 24 school districts continue to have to pay the
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(518) 371-8910 1 school payroll tax with absolutely no 2 guarantee that they will be reimbursed. 3 And I couldn't go back in good 4 faith, and none of my colleagues could go back 5 in good faith and tell our school districts 6 right now: Don't worry, the money is there. 7 There's no $60 million, there's no 8 $97 million, there's no $100 million in this 9 bill. There's no appropriation. There's a 10 promise. And it says it's the intent. But if 11 you look at this language that I just 12 referenced, it should make anybody who works 13 for a school district very nervous. 14 I can't for the life of me 15 understand why this was ever put in in the 16 first place. If the idea was to hold school 17 districts harmless, not create a problem for 18 them, why was there not an exemption to begin 19 with? It would have made a lot more sense to 20 do it that way. School districts are simply 21 not going to believe us. They're not going to 22 believe it until they actually see the money. 23 And as a result, there will be a 24 direct correlation between this action that
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(518) 371-8910 1 you're taking and raising local property 2 taxes. I'm going to say that, all my 3 colleagues are going to say that, because 4 you're adding a cost and there's no guarantee 5 that the money is going to come back. 6 Now, this reimbursement does not 7 apply to our not-for-profits. It doesn't 8 apply to our private or nonpublic schools. I 9 have a school in my district, the Cleary 10 School for the Deaf. I know Senator Foley has 11 St. Mary's in East Islip, Dowling College in 12 Oakdale. There's a lot of institutions that 13 are not going to be exempted the way school 14 districts are. It doesn't make sense. 15 I believe that this is a bad step 16 in the wrong direction. And it just shows 17 what the basic problems are when we can't even 18 get the simplest of questions answered and 19 when we use parliamentary procedure as an 20 obstacle and not as a tool to actually inform 21 the public. 22 Thank you, Madam President. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Thank you, Senator.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Libous. 2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Madam 3 President. 4 Would Senator Dilan yield for a 5 question, please? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Dilan, do you yield? 8 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 9 President. 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Madam 11 President. 12 Senator, I went through this bill. 13 And could you tell me the part where it talks 14 about the road and bridge plan? 15 SENATOR DILAN: I believe that 16 there's an understanding and a commitment to 17 address the highways and bridge -- 18 SENATOR SALAND: Would you suffer 19 an interruption? 20 SENATOR DILAN: Is he speaking to 21 me? 22 SENATOR SALAND: I'm having a 23 difficult time -- I'm having a difficult time 24 hearing the Senator. If he might speak just a
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(518) 371-8910 1 little bit louder. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Dilan, he can't hear you. 4 SENATOR DILAN: Oh, he can't hear 5 me. 6 There's a legislative intent in 7 this bill that would address that issue. 8 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 9 would Senator Dilan yield for another 10 question. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 14 President. 15 SENATOR LIBOUS: How does 16 legislative intent address an issue? 17 SENATOR DILAN: Right now we're 18 dealing in this legislation with the MTA 19 financial package, which deals with their 20 operating deficit and also a two-year capital 21 plan. There's legislative intent in this bill 22 that will address the issue of highway and 23 bridges for the entire State of New York in 24 this bill.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Currently our capital plan does not 2 end till the end of the year, and we will be 3 addressing that in a five-year plan. 4 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 5 will the Senator continue to yield? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 9 President. 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Senator Dilan, 11 could you then tell me what revenues in this 12 bill will address the capital road and bridge 13 plan? 14 SENATOR DILAN: Well, at this 15 particular plan, I cannot tell you what 16 revenues we will be looking at. And I think I 17 heard someone mention or I read somewhere 18 today that if we knew the answer to that right 19 now, it would be in this bill. So I would 20 imagine that we would be looking at that at 21 the appropriate time. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 23 would Senator Dilan continue to yield? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Senator, I guess 4 I'm confused. You said a moment ago that 5 there is an intent in here for a capital road 6 and bridge plan, and then you say that there 7 are no revenues to support that plan. 8 Could you qualify those two 9 statements, because -- 10 SENATOR DILAN: If you go to 11 page 2 of the bill, line 24, there is an 12 intent to address the capital needs of the 13 Department of Transportation, including 14 highways and bridges and non-MTA transit 15 passenger freight rails and aviation and port 16 facilities, et cetera, in the future. 17 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 18 so -- if I could ask Senator Dilan one other 19 question. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 Senator Dilan, one other question? 22 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Senator Libous.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: So if I 2 understand you, Senator, what you're saying is 3 there is language that says in good faith, we 4 will address that issue; however, there are no 5 revenues in it today to address that issue. 6 SENATOR DILAN: I will repeat 7 again, this is an MTA financial package which 8 deals with the MTA and their immediate needs. 9 And it addresses a two-year plan with regard 10 to the payroll tax and any bonding issues. In 11 order to get the bonding, you needed to have 12 that portion in there. 13 There is intent in this bill. And 14 right now we would be formulating at some 15 point this year a five-year capital plan, like 16 we would do every five years. And it is the 17 intent to do that. And it would include the 18 entire State of New York to deal with highway 19 and bridge needs in the dedicated trust fund. 20 And we will do that, just like it has been 21 historically done. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 23 would the good Senator continue to yield? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 3 President. 4 SENATOR LIBOUS: Senator Dilan, 5 are you aware that since 1995 the capital plan 6 of the MTA and the road, bridge, and highway 7 capital plan have been done simultaneously? 8 SENATOR DILAN: Can you repeat 9 the question? I apologize. 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Sure, Senator, I 11 will repeat it. 12 I asked are you aware that since 13 1995 that a capital plan for roads and bridges 14 and a capital plan for the MTA have been done 15 simultaneously, they've been done together. 16 Each time -- I'll give you a 17 perfect example. Five years ago we did a 18 capital plan of $17.5 billion for roads and 19 bridges and $17.5 billion for the MTA. That 20 has been the way the Legislature and the 21 Governors, both Republican and Democrat, have 22 handled this going back to 1995. Parity, 23 parity for both roads and bridges and the MTA. 24 Are you aware of that?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 2 yes, I am aware of that. 3 And as I indicated to the Senator 4 in my previous response, we're talking about a 5 funding package for the MTA in a two-year 6 capital or debt to satisfy bonding. 7 And I indicated that there's 8 legislative intent here to do exactly what the 9 good Senator is talking about that, and that's 10 not going to change. We are going to come up 11 with a plan for the entire State of New York 12 that will address that, as has always been the 13 custom. 14 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 15 would he continue to yield? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 18 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 19 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 20 I tend to differ, because it has not always 21 been the custom. As I stated, since 1995 both 22 plans have been done together. 23 So my question to Senator Dilan is, 24 why isn't a road and bridge plan on the floor
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(518) 371-8910 1 today along with an MTA plan? Why today has 2 it been broken? 3 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 4 through you, we're dealing again with a 5 situation within this 12-county region to 6 ensure that there are no service cuts within 7 the area, preventing 1100 jobs from being 8 lost, preventing draconian increases in fares. 9 And I indicated to the Senator that we will 10 address that. 11 And then again, referring to page 2 12 at this time, line 28, Senator: "The Governor 13 and the Legislature request that the 14 Department of Transportation begin development 15 of such a program immediately and provide the 16 Legislature with an outline of the objectives 17 of the program and the performance measures 18 that will be used to determine investment in 19 transportation in the state for the next 20 multiple year capital program by October 1, 21 2009." 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, 23 Senator. 24 Madam President, would Senator
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(518) 371-8910 1 Dilan continue to yield? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 5 President. 6 SENATOR LIBOUS: Senator, I heard 7 you loud and clear. I heard you say that the 8 intent was to deal with this issue later on. 9 So I go back to my question. Since 10 1995, they've been dealt with together -- 11 SENATOR DILAN: Continuing with 12 my response -- continuing -- 13 SENATOR LIBOUS: Could I finish? 14 SENATOR DILAN: I'll let you 15 finish. 16 SENATOR LIBOUS: Please. Thank 17 you. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Senator, continue with the question. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: So my question 21 is, why aren't they being addressed together 22 today? 23 Because in this MTA proposal, Madam 24 President and Senator, if I read it correctly,
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(518) 371-8910 1 there's a capital plan being funded for the 2 MTA. You're not just correcting a shortfall 3 situation, you're addressing a future capital 4 plan for the MTA. 5 So again, I heard you, but I'm 6 confused. We have always done them together. 7 We're addressing capital for the MTA today but 8 nothing for roads and bridges. 9 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 10 we will continue to do it together. Currently 11 we are dealing with a financial plan for the 12 MTA that is unique, it's an emergency 13 situation within this 12-county region. 14 There is no difference from the way 15 that we have done it in 1995. Our current 16 capital plan continues to be funded, and this 17 Legislature and the Governor will do a capital 18 plan on a timely fashion, and it will be done 19 for the entire State of New York, the same way 20 it has been done in history and to the 21 Senator's reference of 1995. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, 23 Senator. 24 SENATOR DILAN: And I will
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(518) 371-8910 1 continue responding the same way if he 2 continues to ask me the same question. 3 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, 4 Senator Dilan. 5 And I will, Madam President, speak 6 on the bill now. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Senator Libous, on the bill. 9 SENATOR LIBOUS: In all due 10 respect to Senator Dilan, who is chairman of 11 the Transportation Committee and I respect and 12 I like tremendously, I believe he is 13 incorrect. Because this bill for the MTA does 14 address capital needs. And there is no 15 capital plan or no addressing of roads and 16 bridges. 17 I'd like to continue by saying 18 that, you know, when the Ravitch Commission 19 was set up, I actually chaired the 20 Transportation Committee at the time. It was 21 toward the end of last year. And I was very 22 concerned that this was going to happen, that 23 we were going to have a plan that dealt with 24 only the MTA and bailed out the MTA and took
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(518) 371-8910 1 care of the capital needs of the MTA, and 2 roads and bridges were not going to be to be 3 taken care of. 4 And at that time I wrote a letter 5 to the Governor. And, Madam President, the 6 ranking member of the committee, Senator 7 Valesky, joined me in that letter, and he 8 agreed with me, he concurred with me that this 9 could be a serious issue, that there would be 10 the MTA being addressed and nothing for 11 upstate roads and bridges -- and, quite 12 frankly, even the roads in the MTA region are 13 going to be ignored. Because there are roads 14 and bridges in the MTA region. 15 And Senator Valesky joined me in 16 signing a letter to Governor Paterson, and I 17 never got a response. And I don't know -- 18 maybe, Senator, you got a response from the 19 Governor -- he's shaking his head no. So I 20 think the Governor ignored the two of us. 21 Because he, like I at that time, was very 22 concerned about the roads and bridges I'm sure 23 in Syracuse, as I was in Binghamton. Because 24 we were going to get shortchanged.
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(518) 371-8910 1 And guess what, ladies and 2 gentlemen? We're getting shortchanged. We're 3 here today, we're here today dealing on an MTA 4 plan -- and I understand that the MTA is under 5 crisis. But there's capital in here for the 6 MTA. It would be much easier for me to say 7 yeah, I could support this because the MTA is 8 under crisis. I voted, I negotiated, I was a 9 player in negotiating the last capital plan 10 for the MTA. I respect and understand the 11 importance of it. 12 But what's happening here is this 13 is not about a crisis plan for the MTA. This 14 is an additional capital plan for the MTA. 15 We're breaking the parity that we've had since 16 1995 for roads and bridges. 17 And, Madam President, as I look, it 18 gets even worse, and I'm going to tell you 19 why. Those of you in the upstate region or in 20 the Hudson Valley or for that matter in the 21 MTA region and on Long Island who have roads 22 and bridges, in this year's budget, which my 23 colleagues on the other side of the aisle 24 supported, they voted to take $400 million out
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(518) 371-8910 1 of the DOT capital program. That capital 2 program goes to roads and bridges. So the 3 roads and bridges throughout upstate New York 4 and Syracuse and Watertown and in parts of 5 Buffalo and in Binghamton, where I live, got 6 shortchanged again in this budget that the 7 other side of the aisle supported. 8 And then it gets worse when the 9 Democrats passed the budget, Madam President. 10 It gets worse. Because the Dedicated Highway 11 Fund, which is supposed to pay for roads and 12 bridges, which I've preached about on the 13 floor of this house for years and said stop 14 raiding the fund, because the money is 15 supposed to go to roads and bridges -- well, 16 the Democrats on the other side of the aisle 17 raided the fund this year. They raided it to 18 the tune of about $800 million. And there 19 will be a deficit in the Dedicated Highway 20 Fund to about $1.5 billion, and a $500 million 21 operating gap for roads and bridges. 22 So, Madam President, I am upset as 23 an upstate representative -- and I would be 24 upstate if I was an MTA-region
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(518) 371-8910 1 representative -- because the roads and 2 bridges in this state are being forgotten and 3 neglected. Money has been taken away in this 4 year's budget. There is no capital plan. 5 And, Madam President, Senator 6 Dilan, I respect your word and I believe that 7 you want to do something. But I'll be amazed 8 at whether or not anything gets done, because 9 I don't know where you're going to find the 10 revenues to do it. They've always been 11 addressed together, those tough decisions have 12 always been made and we've moved forward. 13 This bill before us today deals 14 with the MTA -- not only a bailout for the 15 MTA, but it is a capital program for the MTA. 16 Once again, upstate and roads and bridges in 17 this state get screwed. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Senator Fuschillo. 20 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you, 21 Madam President. 22 With respect to Governor Paterson's 23 tax plan to bail out the MTA put forth by the 24 Senate Democrats, would Senator Dilan answer
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(518) 371-8910 1 some questions? 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Dilan, will you yield for questions? 4 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, ma'am. 5 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Senator, you 6 chair Transportation. And all my questions 7 relate to fiscal, but the chairman of Finance, 8 Senator Kruger, is not even in the room. So 9 with your indulgence, if you can help me out 10 and answer some of these questions, I'd 11 appreciate it. 12 SENATOR DILAN: Sure. 13 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you. 14 Under the plan that imposes taxes, 15 Nassau County, the County of Nassau, will pay 16 over $3 million, the municipality itself. 17 Does this Governor's program bill 18 reimburse Nassau County? 19 SENATOR DILAN: You're referring 20 to the education piece? 21 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: No, I'm 22 referring to the tax on the municipality 23 itself, the County of Nassau, of 0.34 percent 24 of every hundred dollars. Nassau County is
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(518) 371-8910 1 expected to pay -- the government itself, 2 headed by Democratic County Executive Tom 3 Suozzi, will pay $3,018,670. Does this bill 4 reimburse the County of Nassau as a 5 government? 6 SENATOR DILAN: This current bill 7 will only reimburse public schools. 8 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: So will 9 Senator Dilan continue to yield? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 13 President. 14 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: So Nassau 15 County will not be reimbursed the $3 million 16 it's going to cost them. 17 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 18 as I indicated and when I explained my vote, 19 the only reimbursements will be made to public 20 schools. 21 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Okay, Madam 22 President, so I'll take that as a no. 23 Will Suffolk County be -- 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Are you asking Senator Dilan to continue to 2 yield? 3 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: I'm sorry, 4 Madam President, through you. Will Senator 5 Dilan continue to yield? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 9 President. 10 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Senator 11 Dilan, I appreciate your indulgence. These 12 are fiscal questions for the chairman of 13 Finance, but it seems he wouldn't answer 14 Senator Flanagan's questions. 15 Suffolk County is being hit with a 16 significant payroll tax as well of over 17 $3 million. I believe it's correct that they 18 will not be reimbursed, the government, as 19 well? 20 SENATOR DILAN: I'm going to 21 continue to repeat the same response. The 22 only reimbursement in this bill will be made 23 to public schools within the 12-county region. 24 Let me also indicate that the only
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(518) 371-8910 1 individuals paying the payroll tax will be 2 from this 12-county region. And in this 3 legislation it will only reimburse public 4 schools. 5 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you, 6 Senator. 7 Will Senator Dilan continue to 8 yield continue, Madam President? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 12 President. 13 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you, 14 Senator. 15 Nassau County schools will have a 16 tax impact of $13,320,000 and change. Suffolk 17 County schools will have a tax impact of 18 nearly $15 million. The counties in the 19 12 regions, including New York City, will have 20 a tax impact of $97 million, nearly 21 $100 million. 22 Is there an appropriation in this 23 bill to refund the school districts? 24 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President,
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(518) 371-8910 1 as I indicated in my explanation, there will 2 be an appropriation in I believe it is the 3 2010 budget. 4 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you, 5 Senator Dilan. So there's no appropriation. 6 Madam President, will Senator Dilan 7 continue to yield? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 11 President. 12 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Senator, in 13 this bill is there a constitutional 14 requirement to reimburse the school districts? 15 Senator Oppenheimer, you want to 16 answer that? I'm happy to -- 17 SENATOR DILAN: Whether it's 18 constitutional or not, I'm not an attorney. 19 However, I know that there is language within 20 this bill to reimburse public schools. 21 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you, 22 Senator Dilan. 23 Madam President, will Senator Dilan 24 continue to yield for questions?
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 3 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 4 President. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 He does. 7 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you, 8 Senator Dilan. 9 It states here on page 12 of the 10 bill, line 1: "It is the intent of the 11 Governor to submit and the Legislature to 12 enact for each fiscal year after the 2009-2010 13 fiscal year in an annual budget bill an 14 appropriation in the amount to be paid to 15 school districts." 16 So the word "intent" is not a 17 guarantee, am I correct? 18 SENATOR DILAN: It's possible, 19 but I -- 20 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Okay, that's 21 fine. 22 Madam President, will Senator Dilan 23 continue to yield? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 3 President. 4 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Now, what if, 5 Senator Dilan -- again, thank you for 6 answering these. These are all finance 7 questions. I wish the chairman of Finance, 8 Senator Kruger, would answer the questions. I 9 know you are the chairman of Transportation, 10 and I appreciate your cooperation. 11 SENATOR DILAN: I would love to 12 answer that also, because -- 13 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: I didn't ask 14 the question yet. 15 SENATOR DILAN: Oh, well, I'll 16 respond anyway when I have an opportunity for 17 it. 18 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: What if there 19 is not an appropriation in the 2009-2010 20 budget going forward? What if there's no 21 appropriation to reimburse the school 22 districts? 23 SENATOR DILAN: I know that there 24 is language in this bill that indicates that
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(518) 371-8910 1 there will be reimbursements for public 2 schools within the 12-county region. 3 I know that I as a member of this 4 Senate, and my colleagues, intend to honor 5 that commitment that's in here. There are 6 other -- there's the Assembly involved, there 7 is the Governor involved, there's a three-way 8 agreement on this. And I believe, I sincerely 9 believe that everyone will honor that 10 commitment. 11 Now -- and it would also depend on 12 perhaps the vote of any member of this Senate, 13 not only my colleagues. 14 But I also want to indicate that in 15 regard to the issue of this bill, this bill 16 did go through the Transportation Committee. 17 That portion was not in the bill when it was 18 released or reported out from Transportation 19 and Finance. 20 And I'd like to say that I was very 21 involved. And during the committee meeting, 22 85 percent of what's in this bill, I would 23 dare to say 85 to 90 percent of what's in this 24 bill was reported out of the Transportation
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(518) 371-8910 1 Committee. 2 And that portion that relates to 3 the Governor is only dealing with the public 4 education reimbursement and maybe a few other 5 minor changes. But in essence, this is the 6 Senate bill. 7 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Madam 8 President, will Senator Dilan continue to 9 yield on his bill now? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. But could I 13 follow up on the previous question? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Continue your thought? 16 SENATOR DILAN: Yeah. Because 17 it's my understanding that there's also 18 wording within this legislation that if we do 19 not reimburse the school districts that the 20 payroll tax for the public schools within the 21 region will be suspended for six months. 22 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Would Senator 23 Dilan continue to yield? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 3 President. 4 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: So, Senator, 5 what happens to the school districts after the 6 six months if there's still no appropriation? 7 SENATOR DILAN: They will be 8 required to pay the payroll tax. 9 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Would Senator 10 Dilan continue to yield, Madam President? 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Will you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 14 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: So the bill 15 says that the Governor has the intent to 16 provide reimbursement to school districts, 17 with no constitutional language. And now 18 you're telling me if there's no appropriation 19 that they don't have to pay for six months, 20 but after the six months they'll be required 21 to pay the $97 million to the State of 22 New York with no reimbursement; is that 23 correct? 24 SENATOR DILAN: Currently, as the
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(518) 371-8910 1 bill is written, it is the intent of the 2 Legislature and all those involved to 3 reimburse the school districts. 4 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: I'm sorry, 5 Madam President, I didn't hear his answer. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Dilan, would you repeat your answer? 8 SENATOR DILAN: The answer is 9 that under the current language in this bill, 10 there's intent which is to guarantee -- to 11 reimburse the school districts. 12 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: You and I 13 will have to have a disagreement on that. 14 There's no guarantee to reimburse the school 15 districts. 16 But I'll move on. Would Senator 17 Dilan continue to yield? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 21 President. 22 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Senator 23 Dilan, is there a sunset provision? Does this 24 tax ever end?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DILAN: No. 2 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Okay. Thank 3 you. 4 What impact -- I'm sorry, Madam 5 President. Would Senator Dilan continue to 6 yield? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 10 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Senator 11 Dilan, with tolls on bridges -- the Verrazano 12 Bridge, other bridges that come under this 13 authority -- what will individuals see as an 14 increase on this? 15 SENATOR DILAN: I do not have 16 that information. I believe that would be the 17 responsibility of the MTA. I'm not aware in 18 regard to the tolls. 19 I'm understanding that there's 20 approximately a 10 percent increase -- well, 21 with fares, with fares, transportation fares, 22 what I'm aware of is that there's a 10 percent 23 increase this year on fares, which would apply 24 to the weekly and monthly, and then, in
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(518) 371-8910 1 outyears, 7.5 percent, 7.5 percent. 2 But in regard to tolls, I don't 3 have that information. 4 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you, 5 Senator Dilan. 6 Madam President, would Senator 7 Dilan continue to yield? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 11 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: So is it fair 12 to say, Senator Dilan, that individuals will 13 have tolls -- and for me, being parochial, the 14 Long Island Railroad, the commutation fare 15 increase will go up 27 percent in the next 16 three years? 17 SENATOR DILAN: With regard to 18 what? 19 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Tolls and 20 fares. Will they go up 27 percent in the next 21 three years? 22 SENATOR DILAN: Within this 23 current bill, we're talking about fares. So 24 I'm not responding to questions that have to
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(518) 371-8910 1 do with tolls. That is the responsibility of 2 the MTA, Metropolitan Transportation 3 Authority. 4 What's within this bill or what 5 we're talking about here or in discussions 6 with MTA, my understanding is that the fare 7 will go up 10 percent. In addition to those 8 five sources of revenues that I mentioned, and 9 in keeping with the spirit of everyone within 10 the region paying some portion or fair share 11 or some fair share, that the immediate impact 12 on fares will be 10 percent this year, 7.5 two 13 years after that, 7.5 two years after that. 14 No reference to tolls. 15 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Thank you, 16 Madam President. Will Senator Dilan continue 17 to yield? 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 21 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: So, Senator 22 Dilan, the Long Island Railroad commuters will 23 see a 27 percent increase over the next three 24 years?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DILAN: I don't have the 2 answer to that. 3 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Okay. It 4 will be. 5 Madam President, will Senator Dilan 6 continue to yield? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 10 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Senator 11 Dilan, so it's correct for me to say that 12 small businesses in the region -- and my 13 figures are from the Retail Council of the 14 State of New York -- will see an increase of a 15 tax to small businesses, just retails, of 16 about $60 million annually under this plan? 17 SENATOR DILAN: Well, you know, I 18 don't know what's fair for Senator Flanagan to 19 say -- or, I'm sorry, Senator Fuschillo. I 20 apologize. I apologize. 21 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: No, that's 22 okay, you can call me Flanagan. He's a 23 good-looking guy. 24 (Laughter.)
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DILAN: And the point 2 here is that everyone within the region that 3 benefits from the services provided by the 4 Metropolitan Transportation Authority is 5 paying a share in regard to the benefits that 6 it provides economically and otherwise. 7 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Madam 8 President -- thank you, Senator Dilan -- would 9 Senator Dilan continue to yield? 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 12 SENATOR DILAN: Mm-hmm. 13 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Senator, I've 14 been getting letters -- as I'm sure are all of 15 you on both sides of the aisle, Democrats and 16 Republicans -- opposing this legislation. 17 Eastern Suffolk BOCES from Long Island says 18 that the payroll tax is going to cost them a 19 million dollars. The Nassau-Suffolk BOCES 20 said that the payroll tax is going to cost 21 them $1.2 million. Nassau Community College, 22 a state college, it's going to cost them 23 $400,000. And I'm sure other colleges 24 throughout this 12-county region.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Just to be correct and clear, 2 BOCES, Eastern BOCES, a million dollars; 3 Nassau BOCES, a million-two; Nassau Community 4 College, $400,000. The small businesses in 5 the region, $60 million. The school 6 districts, no guarantee. But my 7 municipalities of Nassau and Suffolk County, 8 the municipalities' total is nearly 9 $10 million for all my villages and counties 10 in Nassau and Suffolk County. 11 None of them will be receiving 12 reimbursements, just the public schools; 13 correct? 14 SENATOR DILAN: According to 15 this, only public schools will receive 16 reimbursement. 17 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Senator 18 Dilan, thank you very much for your answers. 19 SENATOR DILAN: Thank you, 20 Senator. 21 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Madam 22 President, on the bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Senator Fuschillo, on the bill.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Just briefly, 2 Madam President. 3 There is no guarantee that any 4 school district in the 12 counties that is 5 being subjected to an unfunded mandate will be 6 reimbursed under this bill. 7 Governor Paterson's program bill 8 put forth by the Senate Democrats is equally 9 as bad as the state budget that was put forth 10 by the Senate Democrats as well. 11 From 2000 to 2008, we've lost 12 8.3 percent of our population that have gone 13 to other states. A report was just issued 14 that was printed before this budget was 15 adopted that said the state and local tax 16 burden that New York has is the 17 second-heaviest state and local tax burden in 18 the nation. We're number two, at 19 11.7 percent. New Jersey is 11.8. 20 If this was printed in a month from 21 now, because of the state budget and this MTA 22 tax plan that you're putting forth, guarantee, 23 a safe bet, we'll be number one. 24 Out of 50 states, the Small
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(518) 371-8910 1 Business Survival Index, which is the ranking 2 of government's burden on small businesses -- 3 you want to be number one, which means you're 4 a friendly state to do business in. We're 5 Number 45, before the budget and before the 6 MTA bailout. 7 According to the Long Island 8 Association, which is one of the largest 9 business organizations in the state, Matt 10 Crosson, its president, has expressed deep 11 concern over this tax plan. He states: 12 "New York has the poorest economic outlook in 13 the nation, the number-one population lost in 14 the last 10 years." And I can go on and on 15 and on. 16 Now, like many of you, I have so 17 many memos of opposition to this. The Nassau 18 County Legislature, my schools, the BOCES, the 19 hospitals, the community colleges, the 20 Catholic Conference, the Suffolk County 21 Legislature, endorsed by Democrats and 22 Republicans, the New York Farm Bureau, the 23 town superintendents, the School Board 24 Association, the village associations, on and
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(518) 371-8910 1 on and on. 2 And they're opposed to this tax 3 because it sinks us even deeper. The 4 budget -- I stood at this body, probably a 5 little too animated, and said "You're choking 6 us to death." This budget really sinks 7 further. 8 You know, we must be watching 9 different financial networks. Because the car 10 industry is now saying, without taxpayer 11 dollars, if you lose your job, we'll pay for 12 your car for 12 months. In New York State, 13 we're saying forget it. If you live in the 14 12 counties that affect the MTA, don't do 15 business here, because you're going to pay 16 more taxes. If you have a payroll in excess 17 of $2500, you're going to pay the payroll tax. 18 Now, I work very closely with my 19 downtowns, as most of you do. I have 20 businesses telling me: "Senator, we haven't 21 taken a paycheck since October or November of 22 last year." I have more vacant stores than 23 I've ever seen before in my life. The 24 libraries are saying to me, you know, "You hit
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(518) 371-8910 1 us hard, and now you're hitting us again." 2 The hospitals are saying the same thing. 3 And the school districts, the 4 Nassau-Suffolk School District Association is 5 saying, Are you kidding me? We're going to 6 trust the Governor that the word "intent" is 7 going to reimburse us? $24.4 million just on 8 Long Island; Nassau and Suffolk schools have 9 to pay this tax. 10 This is probably the largest 11 unfunded mandate I've ever witnessed in the 12 State of New York. And what happened to the 13 billion-dollar surplus the MTA had hast year? 14 What happened to that? What happened to the 15 reforms to the authorities in the State of 16 New York that everybody said the chairman and 17 the CEO have too much authority? Yet this 18 bill gives back that title of the chairman and 19 the CEO. Every other authority can't have the 20 chairman and the CEO having the same title 21 except now for the MTA. 22 Seventy thousand employees, 23 $11 billion, probably the most bloated 24 bureaucracy in the country, and yet we're
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(518) 371-8910 1 saying, Hey, take another blank check. Take 2 another blank check. Because that's what 3 you're getting. 4 Now, Lee Sander finally says, on 5 April 22nd, "We're going to have a hiring 6 freeze." What are we supposed to do, applaud? 7 He put a hiring freeze. Where have you been? 8 Where have you been? And now we're giving 9 that title, that power of chairman and CEO 10 only to the MTA. 11 Madam President, I appreciate the 12 time allotted to me. This is as bad as the 13 budget that was enacted. 14 This Governor's bill that just 15 taxes people, taxes businesses, taxes small 16 businesses, schools, libraries, hospitals, 17 nonprofits that are struggling right now to 18 provide the services that government can't do, 19 is going to further create higher unemployment 20 and make New York State a less friendly state 21 than it is right now to live, raise your 22 family, and do business here. I'll be voting 23 no. 24 Thank you very much, Madam
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(518) 371-8910 1 President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Thank you, Senator. 4 Senator Bonacic. 5 SENATOR BONACIC: Thank you, 6 Madam President. 7 I'm not going to ask any Senator 8 any question. But a couple of my colleagues 9 asked me, "Why are you wearing a black shirt, 10 Senator Bonacic, today?" And I said that I am 11 going to a eulogy. This session will be a 12 wake. And it will be a wake for the people in 13 Orange County. 14 Now, why do I say that? When we 15 did the Big Ugly, the budget, of over 16 $8 billion in new taxes, I pointed out that 17 the not-for-profit tax code at that time said 18 for small businesses, after that budget, 19 New York was number one and the worst state to 20 do business for small businesses. 21 Now, I don't know if you're looking 22 at what's happening to the rest of New York 23 State outside New York City, but that 24 unemployment is pushing close to 10 percent.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Businesses are on their backs. Many have 2 closed. They are hanging on by the barest of 3 strings. 4 And what do we do? We come along 5 and we hit the taxpayers and small businesses 6 and everybody else with another $2.2 billion. 7 So that's a total of $10.7 billion. 8 Now, where do you think government 9 gets their money from? Where do you think? 10 Because government does not create one penny 11 of wealth, not one cent. For everything we do 12 in this state -- for the salaries that we pay, 13 for all the programs that we have, for 14 educating our children, for taking care of our 15 healthcare and those that can't afford it, and 16 our transportation aid and helping the 17 mentally health and affordable housing -- it 18 comes from the private sector. 19 There seems to be a disconnect with 20 our actions and what we do to the golden 21 goose. Because the private sector is the 22 golden goose that is the means for us to do 23 what we do. 24 Now, in Orange County, the hit to
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(518) 371-8910 1 our county for both the schools and the 2 municipalities is $4.2 million. That's an 3 increase in property taxes right there. The 4 fact that you reached in -- and, you know, the 5 Democrats are always known for compassion 6 politics. You know, we want to help 7 everybody. 8 But you hit our libraries, you hit 9 our higher institutions of education. You 10 just raped them for 80 percent of the tax 11 hike -- a tuition hike, excuse me. And now 12 every employer in higher ed -- with me, 13 it's -- throughout the state is going to have 14 toll pay a payroll tax, a further hit. 15 You took $400 million from our 16 hospitals, and now another payroll tax. 17 You're taking millions out of the small 18 businesses. 19 This is a job killer. A killer. 20 And they need this capital. When you tax, you 21 take capital out of the private-sector system. 22 Now, that capital is what businesses need to 23 expand, to create jobs, to buy technology, to 24 even give their employees a raise so they'll
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(518) 371-8910 1 stay here. Businesses are mobile, they can 2 leave, as well as private taxpayers. 3 Now, I want to tell you another 4 fact about the Orange County residents. We 5 have about 3 percent that use the buses and 6 the trains to the metropolitan area, a 7 population of 3 percent. Yet you have charged 8 a business payroll tax the same as the 9 New York City businesses. Is that fair? Is 10 that equitable? I ask you that. 11 When you became a Senator, you said 12 you're not only going to be a Senator for your 13 constituents, you're going to be a Senator of 14 the whole state and you're going to treat 15 people or you're going to try to treat people 16 fairly and equitably. 17 Well, let me tell you, on this MTA 18 tax you did not treat the people of Orange 19 County fairly and equitably. You treated them 20 with a city bias. This is taxation without 21 transportation. That's what you did to the 22 people of Orange County. 23 Madam President, thank you. I vote 24 in the negative.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Saland. 3 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, Madam 4 President. Would Senator Perkins yield to a 5 question? 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Perkins, do you yield for questions? 8 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, Madam 9 President. 10 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 11 Senator Perkins. 12 Senator Perkins, it seems like 13 quite some time ago I heard you, I believe in 14 an exchange with Senator DeFrancisco -- I 15 believe it was he -- in which you responded to 16 a question about the openness of this 17 procedure as being taken care of by the 18 conducting of Senate hearings. Is that 19 correct? 20 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 21 Madam President. That was a part of the 22 answer that I gave. However, it was 23 significantly more involved than that. 24 SENATOR SALAND: Well,
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(518) 371-8910 1 assuming -- 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Do you wish the Senator to continue to yield? 4 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, if Senator 5 Perkins will continue to yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, I will, 9 Madam President. 10 SENATOR SALAND: Assuming in part 11 that the Senate hearing process comprised a 12 component of the openness and transparency 13 that has been pledged by the Democrat majority 14 in the house, could you tell me where those 15 Senate hearings were held? 16 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 17 Madam President. One was held in the borough 18 of Brooklyn, and the other one was held in the 19 borough of Manhattan. 20 SENATOR SALAND: Will Senator 21 Perkins continue to yield? 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator Perkins, do you continue to yield? 24 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, Madam
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(518) 371-8910 1 President. 2 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Perkins, 3 do you recall receiving a copy of a letter 4 from me to the Majority Leader, Senator Smith, 5 in which I requested that a hearing be held in 6 the Hudson Valley? 7 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 8 Madam President, I recall receiving several 9 communications from members requesting 10 hearings in different parts of the state, and 11 possibly -- and I believe yours was one of 12 them. 13 SENATOR SALAND: Would the 14 Senator continue to yield? 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Perkins, do you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, Madam 18 President. 19 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Perkins, 20 do you recall a conversation which we had in 21 which I discussed this issue with you and I 22 told you that it was critically important to 23 the Hudson Valley that people have the 24 opportunity to be heard because this was
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(518) 371-8910 1 causing such enormous anxiety, fear, in the 2 Hudson Valley? And that it didn't have to be 3 in my district. I even suggested, to be 4 centrally located, it might be somewhere in 5 northern Westchester. 6 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 7 Madam President. Yes, I recall you sharing 8 that concern. 9 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 10 Senator Perkins. 11 I have no more questions of Senator 12 Perkins. I have questions for Senator Dilan. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Dilan, do you yield for questions from 15 Senator Saland? 16 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 17 President. Yes. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Just, if I may, 19 before I engage with Senator Dilan, the sort 20 of proverbial orphans of this system, and 21 certainly the revenue hostages are the 22 so-called outer boroughs. And a mere modicum 23 of courtesy, a mere modicum of interest, a 24 mere modicum of courtesy as between colleagues
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(518) 371-8910 1 would have said there should be a hearing 2 somewhere other than in two boroughs in the 3 City of New York. 4 Senator Dilan, do you yield? 5 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. Yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Dilan has said he would yield, yes. 8 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Dilan, 9 the exchanges that have occurred previously, I 10 believe you responded to a revenue estimate as 11 to what this would be generating by way of 12 funds. I'm not quite sure I recall that 13 number. Could you please tell me what that 14 number is? 15 SENATOR DILAN: Are you talking 16 to the total amount of the two? 17 SENATOR SALAND: The total. And 18 if you could break it down by category. 19 SENATOR DILAN: You want me to 20 repeat it again? 21 SENATOR SALAND: I'm sorry? 22 SENATOR DILAN: You want me to 23 repeat the entire explanation? Is that what 24 you're asking me?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR SALAND: Senator, you 2 don't have to repeat it. If you'd just let me 3 know what are the components -- I believe 4 there are some five components -- and what 5 each yields. 6 SENATOR DILAN: Over a two-year 7 period, Madam President, this piece of 8 legislation would generate approximately 9 $2.9 billion. And with regard to the new 10 license fee at a flat rate of $1 per six 11 months, this year it would generate 12 $6 million. It will raise $27 million next 13 year. This is an increase of $16 above the 14 rate of the state budget. An average 15 D license would be charged at a rate of $78.50 16 for the eight-year period. 17 With regard to the car 18 registration, that's a flat fee of $25 per 19 year. And it will raise, in 2009, 20 $47 million. Next year, it will raise $141 21 million. 22 With respect to the payroll tax, it 23 would raise, this year, approximately a 24 billion dollars. Next year it would raise
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(518) 371-8910 1 approximately $1.5 billion. And as I 2 indicated before, schools would not have to 3 pay this tax until September, and they will be 4 reimbursed. 5 And I also want to take this 6 opportunity, because I found something in the 7 bill, on page 11, Part D, and it would be 8 Section 3609-g. With respect to a previous 9 question, I think it's appropriate to answer 10 it at this time. 11 This says "Monies apportioned to 12 school districts for reimbursement of 13 Article 23 of the Tax Law payments commencing 14 in the 2009-2010 school year. Notwithstanding 15 any other provision of law to the contrary, 16 school districts shall be reimbursed for 17 payments made pursuant this article." 18 And to continue, the fifth piece is 19 a 5 percent rental fee on all passenger 20 vehicles, and that would raise $18 million 21 this year, $35 million next year. 22 And I believe that answers the 23 Senator's question. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Thank you, Senator Dilan. 2 SENATOR SALAND: So the total for 3 this year, according to your numbers -- unless 4 I've missed something -- will be somewhere in 5 the area of 1.07 billion; is that correct? 6 SENATOR DILAN: I believe it 7 would be 1.105 billion. 8 SENATOR SALAND: And next year 9 would be more like 1.7 billion? 10 SENATOR DILAN: 1.827. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you. 12 Senator -- 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Are you asking the Senator to continue to 15 yield? 16 SENATOR SALAND: Oh, yes, I am. 17 Thank you. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 20 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 21 President. 22 SENATOR SALAND: I call your 23 attention to Article 23, entitled 24 "Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Mobility
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(518) 371-8910 1 Tax." And it provides that an employer who 2 has payroll expenses in excess of $2500 per 3 quarter will be obligated to pay this tax. It 4 exempts certain national or international 5 entities, interstate agencies. 6 On Section 802 it says "Pass 7 through of tax is prohibited. An employer 8 cannot deduct from the wages or compensation 9 of an employee any portion of the tax 10 imposed." And up above, it defines payroll 11 expense as wages and compensation. 12 Could you tell me what the 13 difference is between wages and compensation 14 and what constitutes compensation that will be 15 taxed under this bill? 16 SENATOR DILAN: I am informed 17 that under the Internal Revenue Law, salary is 18 compensation and does not include any other 19 benefits. 20 SENATOR SALAND: I'm sorry, could 21 you repeat that? 22 SENATOR DILAN: According to 23 information that I've just been informed, the 24 Internal Revenue Law defines salary as
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(518) 371-8910 1 compensation and does not include any other 2 benefits. 3 SENATOR SALAND: Oh, I would 4 respectfully beg to differ. And if you read 5 3121, it enumerates a number of items that are 6 not included in compensation. 7 In speaking with school managers, 8 business managers, and others, I've been told 9 that you can reasonably expect -- these people 10 are far more expert in these matters than I 11 am -- that you will also be including those 12 contributions that are made to 401(k)s, that 13 if a business has a stock option plan, that 14 will be included. 15 And the school districts' reading 16 of this is that their pension payments, 17 somewhere in the area of some 8 or 9 percent 18 of payroll, would be included. 19 The law I believe specifically 20 excludes health benefits. But the advice that 21 you're getting from whomever is giving it to 22 you certainly flies in the face of what the 23 common perception is of what this proposal 24 will do with respect to compensation.
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(518) 371-8910 1 There is no need to say "wages or 2 compensation" as distinguished from "wages and 3 compensation" if in fact additional 4 compensation can't be taxed. 5 SENATOR DILAN: The Senator 6 differs with me, and I differ with him. 7 SENATOR SALAND: Senator, what 8 if you're an attorney -- 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Are you asking him to continue to yield? 11 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, continue to 12 yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR DILAN: When he addresses 16 you. He still hasn't addressed you. 17 SENATOR SALAND: I couldn't hear 18 his response. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 The Senator has suggested that you speak 21 through -- ask me. 22 SENATOR SALAND: Certainly, Madam 23 President. 24 Senator Dilan, if you're an
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(518) 371-8910 1 attorney who does not have an office located 2 in the 12-county region, you're a consultant 3 who doesn't have an office in the 12-county 4 region, and you appear for business purposes 5 in that 12-county region and derive fees or 6 income, would that become taxable? 7 SENATOR DILAN: My understanding 8 is if they appear within the 12-county region 9 and receive compensation, they would be 10 subject to the tax from the district only, the 11 compensation that was derived from the 12 district. 13 SENATOR SALAND: So looking at 14 Section 801(b)(1), that person would be an 15 individual having net earnings, or probably 16 could be a business as well, without -- not 17 within, but without -- the Metropolitan 18 Transportation Authority district and would 19 have to allocate and apportion its earnings 20 within the district. 21 So have you -- 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator Saland, are you asking Senator Dilan 24 to continue to yield?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, I will. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, ma'am. 5 SENATOR SALAND: In the 6 computation of payroll tax, in which you told 7 me there was roughly 1.1 billion this year and 8 1.8 billion next year, have you included in 9 your computation some amount of money that 10 will be derived from these I'll call them 11 external businesses or consultants or 12 attorneys who do business in the district and 13 derive a fee from there? 14 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 15 we do not have that breakdown. 16 But if you have compensation within 17 the 12-county region, this would be similar as 18 if a nonresident of the state or if I went to 19 New Jersey and earned an income there, I would 20 have to pay some form of income tax in that 21 state. And I believe that that would be 22 similar to that. 23 SENATOR SALAND: Would the 24 Senator continue to yield?
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 3 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. Yes. 4 SENATOR SALAND: So is it safe to 5 say, then, Senator Dilan, that inasmuch as you 6 have not computed that amount and it's not 7 included in your calculation, that the amount 8 of monies that's being raised by the payroll 9 tax will exceed your estimates? 10 SENATOR DILAN: I know the answer 11 that I gave just 30 seconds ago is that I do 12 not have that breakdown. It is computed, but 13 I do not have the breakdown. 14 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Dilan, 15 will you continue to yield? 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 18 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 19 President. 20 SENATOR SALAND: This would be 21 more appropriately a question probably for the 22 chair of the Education Committee. She's not 23 currently, I don't believe, in the chamber. 24 What happens in the case of a
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(518) 371-8910 1 school district that straddles a county line, 2 part of it being in the MTA region and part of 3 it being outside the MTA region? And I can 4 identify three of them in my district, by the 5 way. 6 SENATOR DILAN: My understanding 7 is that that payroll tax would be apportioned 8 according to, I would imagine, the employees, 9 or there would be a some formula to apportion 10 that. 11 SENATOR SALAND: And if in fact 12 the home site of the school district is -- I 13 have one school district, if you'll continue 14 to yield, that is -- 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 18 SENATOR SALAND: -- that is a 19 small school district, K-12, one building, 20 located outside of Dutchess County, located in 21 Columbia County, and yet they have students 22 from Dutchess County. They are now subject to 23 this as well? 24 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President,
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(518) 371-8910 1 the students are not on the payroll. 2 SENATOR SALAND: No -- will he 3 continue to yield? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Do you continue to yield, Senator Dilan? 6 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 7 President. 8 SENATOR SALAND: The school 9 districts are subject to the payroll tax, and 10 you are maintaining that you are then going to 11 reimburse them. So they are subject to the 12 tax. And as was discussed earlier, it's not 13 constitutional, it's a matter of intent. And 14 your obligation under the language of this 15 bill is to no more than six months' worth of 16 payments. 17 SENATOR DILAN: My understanding 18 from this legislation is if you have a school 19 district that's outside the 12-county region, 20 they are not subject to this tax. If you have 21 students that would go to a school in Columbia 22 County, it has nothing to do with this bill. 23 And you just mentioned the intent. 24 And I will remind the Senator that I did read
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(518) 371-8910 1 on page 11, Section 3609-g, that the school 2 districts shall be reimbursed for payments. 3 SENATOR SALAND: I'm sorry, would 4 you tell me where that is again? 5 SENATOR DILAN: Page 11, Part D, 6 Section 3609-g, starting on line 21. 7 SENATOR SALAND: If the Senator 8 would continue to yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 12 President. 13 SENATOR SALAND: This may be 14 perhaps a little too lawyer-like; you 15 acknowledged you're not a lawyer. Are you 16 familiar with -- 17 SENATOR DILAN: Point of order, 18 Madam President. I indicated before I am not 19 a lawyer. And I would ask the Senator to stop 20 referring and calling me such. 21 SENATOR SALAND: I'm sorry? 22 SENATOR DILAN: He says I'm 23 acting like a lawyer. 24 SENATOR SALAND: Oh, no, no, no,
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(518) 371-8910 1 I did not say that, Senator. No, no, no. I 2 said I realize that you're not a lawyer and 3 that you had said that -- 4 SENATOR DILAN: Okay, I 5 apologize. I apologize. 6 SENATOR SALAND: Under rules of 7 construction, something that follows language 8 generally is viewed as being in effect more 9 controlling. So when you talk about "shall" 10 being in Section 3609-g, Part D, Section 1 -- 11 SENATOR DILAN: Page 11, line 21. 12 SENATOR SALAND: A number of 13 paragraphs thereafter, in paragraph 5, it says 14 "It is the intent of the Governor to submit 15 and the Legislature to enact for each fiscal 16 year after the 2009-2010 fiscal year in an 17 annual budget bill an appropriation in the 18 amount to be paid to school districts pursuant 19 to this section." 20 And then when you get to the end of 21 that article, Section 2-a on page 13, it says, 22 in effect, if there's no appropriation you can 23 suspend the payment for up to six months -- 24 "you" being the school district -- but very
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(518) 371-8910 1 critically, it goes on to say your liability 2 will not be reduced. 3 So under this bill, the only thing 4 that you have to hang your hat on is an 5 expression of intent, buttressed by the fact 6 that you can have your reimbursement 7 suspended, but not the liability that 8 underlies it. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Saland, was there a question? 11 SENATOR SALAND: Does that 12 conflict with your understanding of the bill? 13 SENATOR DILAN: I will stand by 14 my previous responses to this. I have 15 mentioned Section 3609 several times. And I 16 read it that it shall reimburse the districts. 17 On line 52 of the same page, it says: "Any 18 payment to a school district pursuant to this 19 section shall be general receipts of the 20 district and may be used for any lawful 21 purpose of the district." 22 And I've answered the same question 23 several times already. 24 SENATOR SALAND: Is there any
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(518) 371-8910 1 provision in this bill -- if you'll continue 2 to yield, Senator. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR DILAN: Last question for 6 Senator Saland. 7 SENATOR SALAND: I'm sorry? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Senator Dilan has indicated this is the last 10 question. 11 SENATOR SALAND: I regret that, 12 but I'll go on the bill when we're done. 13 Senator Dilan, is there any 14 provision in this bill which authorizes the 15 increase in taxes or fees? And if so, where 16 might I find it? 17 SENATOR DILAN: What was the last 18 portion of your question? 19 SENATOR SALAND: Is there any 20 provision in this bill that authorizes the 21 increase of the taxes and fees proposed in 22 this bill, and if there is, where might I find 23 it? 24 SENATOR DILAN: So let me
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(518) 371-8910 1 understand the question. Is the Senator 2 asking me are there any provisions for future 3 increases within this bill? Is that what 4 you're asking me? 5 SENATOR SALAND: Yes, that's what 6 I'm asking. 7 SENATOR DILAN: There are none. 8 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 9 Senator Dilan. 10 SENATOR DILAN: Thank you. 11 SENATOR SALAND: On the bill, 12 Madam President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Saland, on the bill. 15 SENATOR SALAND: I would call 16 Senator Dilan's attention and the body's 17 attention to page 23, paragraph 7, which 18 reads: "Nothing contained in this section 19 shall be deemed to restrict the right of the 20 state to amend, repeal, modify or otherwise 21 alter statutes imposing or relating to the 22 taxes and fees producing revenues for deposit 23 in the Metropolitan Transportation Authority 24 Financial Assistance Fund or the
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(518) 371-8910 1 appropriations relating thereto." 2 So we -- when I say "we," I mean 3 you, the Democratic majority here -- have 4 specifically carved out and given notice that 5 beware, you can reasonably anticipate that 6 more is coming down the road. 7 On the bill. Businesses are taking 8 an extraordinary hit. Businesses, 9 not-for-profits. One of my hospitals has 10 already advised me they will lay 10 people off 11 by reason of this particular bill alone. But 12 these folks who are getting hit are 13 businesses. They are winding up paying four 14 times. They will pay the payroll tax, they 15 will pay the county tax, they will pay the 16 town or village or city tax, they will pay the 17 school tax. So it's not merely the payroll 18 tax that's going to knock them off their feet, 19 it's the accumulation of all the other taxes 20 as well. 21 Now, I didn't have the opportunity 22 to engage Senator Dilan, because he's not 23 taking any more questions, but my 24 assumption -- and it's merely an assumption,
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(518) 371-8910 1 based upon what I've heard in prior iterations 2 of this bill -- is that the capital, the bonds 3 that will fund the capital will be secured, at 4 least in part, by the money from the payroll 5 taxes. 6 Well, that being the case, you can 7 rest assured that you've gotten notice in that 8 Section 7 that this is merely the beginning. 9 Now, when Senator Dilan talked 10 about the fact that this only applied to 11 public schools, there are special-act schools 12 to whom this will apply. And I will give you 13 a list of those that are in the metropolitan 14 region. 15 There's the Little Flower Union 16 Free School District in Wading River. That, I 17 believe, is in Senator LaValle's district. 18 There is the Greenburgh-Graham Union Free 19 School, which in Hastings-on-Hudson; I believe 20 in Senator Stewart-Cousins' district. 21 And the following, all in 22 Westchester County: Greenburgh Eleven Union 23 Free School District, Greenburgh-North Castle 24 Union Free School District, Abbott Union Free
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(518) 371-8910 1 School District, Hawthorne Cedar Knolls Union 2 Free School District, Mount Pleasant Cottage 3 School Union Free School District, Mt. 4 Pleasant Blythedale Union Free School 5 District. All located in Westchester County, 6 either Dobbs Ferry, Irvington, Hawthorne, 7 Pleasantville, or Valhalla. I'm not sure, but 8 I believe most if not all of them are also in 9 Senator Stewart-Cousins's district. 10 These folks get no buy in this 11 bill. They are specifically taxed. They 12 don't even get the benefit of the ruse of the 13 reimbursement at some later date. They're in, 14 they're in in its entirety. 15 The section that deals with the 16 imposition of the payroll tax, as I alluded to 17 earlier, takes great pains to distinguish 18 between the imposition of the tax on wages and 19 benefits and then goes on to say that the 20 employer can't pass through that tax to wages 21 or benefits or compensation, more 22 appropriately. And then it says any exemption 23 that you get under other sections of the law 24 you don't get under this section of the law.
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(518) 371-8910 1 So the idea that somehow or other 2 this doesn't apply to other means of 3 compensation really is straining credibility. 4 Let me just conclude with a 5 situation that's particularly painful for my 6 county. I live at the end of the line. We 7 have probably somewhere in the area of 6,000 8 to 6,100 people, out of a population of in 9 excess of 300,000, who avail themselves on a 10 weekday basis of either peak or off-peak 11 transportation on Metro North. 12 That means about 98 percent of the 13 people in my district don't use Metro North, 14 certainly don't use it during the week or on 15 peak or off-peak hours. That means 98 percent 16 of the people who are currently paying, 17 without the pain that they're about to 18 experience -- increased sales taxes, franchise 19 taxes, so-called temporary surcharge, 20 petroleum business tax, local operating 21 assistance, station maintenance payments of 22 about $63 million -- they're now going to be 23 hit with $18 million more without even the 24 licensing fees that we've been talking about
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(518) 371-8910 1 here. 2 The City of New York, on the other 3 hand, has somewhere in the area of about 4 7.5 million fares during that same period of 5 time. 6 The benefit to the people of 7 Dutchess County is modest at best, and that's 8 probably a stretch. Dutchess County is 9 effectively a revenue hostage to this 10 Metropolitan Transportation Authority. This 11 bill provides license to the MTA to plunder, 12 to pillage, and yes, to steal from the people 13 of Dutchess County. 14 There's nothing to be derived for 15 the vast majority of the people in my 16 district, and I'm sure that holds true for 17 other of the suburban counties. This is an 18 extraordinarily painful, painful experience to 19 have this rammed down our throats in this 20 fashion without any pretense of even a hearing 21 being held by this body in the district to let 22 those who are suffering the most grievous 23 injury to have the opportunity to be heard. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Thank you. 2 Senator Larkin. 3 SENATOR LARKIN: Thank God for 4 small favors. Madam President, I want to give 5 Senator Dilan a break. I'd like to talk to 6 Senator Perkins and ask him a few questions. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Senator Perkins, will you yield for some 9 questions? 10 SENATOR PERKINS: By all means, 11 Madam President. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Through the 13 chair. 14 Senator Perkins, as you were 15 drafting this bill, did you receive any input 16 from the Association of Towns, hospitals, 17 National Federation of Independents, the State 18 Business Council, Hospitals Association, 19 expressing their concern about it and their 20 opposition to it? 21 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 22 Madam President. I would say two things. 23 (A), we did receive some communications in 24 that regard, directly and, even more
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(518) 371-8910 1 importantly, through you and some of your 2 other colleagues that had indicated to me the 3 concerns that you had about the legislation. 4 And we accordingly tried to take that into 5 consideration as we moved forward, yes. 6 SENATOR LARKIN: Continue? 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Senator Perkins, will you continue to yield? 9 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, Madam 10 President. 11 SENATOR LARKIN: What were the 12 results of your discussions? 13 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 14 Madam President, the results of the 15 discussions is the legislation that we have 16 before us today, which I look forward to you 17 supporting. 18 SENATOR LARKIN: Well, you know, 19 that sounds good. I'm reading a note here, it 20 says: "I don't think anybody in Albany paid 21 attention to us." We have businesses that 22 have said, We're going to go out of business. 23 Why are they going to go out of business? 24 Will Mr. Perkins continue?
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Perkins, do you continue to yield? 3 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, Madam 4 President. 5 SENATOR LARKIN: You know, I know 6 you received these, because they told us they 7 sent them to every member. What was the 8 reaction? I mean, you're saying to me the 9 bill is here today. But were any of these 10 concerns brought here? 11 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 12 Madam President. As I indicated, you and I -- 13 they not only shared this with me through the 14 letters, but you and I had conversations. And 15 I had acknowledged to you, I remember, 16 directly that I had received such 17 communications. 18 The result of those types of 19 communications as well as others were brought 20 into consideration as we ultimately came up 21 with what's before us this evening that I 22 believe takes us -- is on the right track that 23 takes us where we need to go to address the 24 crisis. That while it may be most prominent
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(518) 371-8910 1 with respect to the people in the City of 2 New York, recognizes that this is a regional, 3 in fact statewide concern. And I hope that 4 this bill, with your support, will take us 5 where we need to go to address it. 6 SENATOR LARKIN: You'll be 7 waiting a long way on you know what. 8 Would Senator Dilan yield? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Dilan, will you yield? 11 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 12 President. 13 SENATOR LARKIN: Senator Dilan, 14 there are four counties in the MTA area -- 15 Putnam, Dutchess, Orange and Rockland -- where 16 each one of us have a quarter of a vote. In 17 other words, if four representatives don't 18 show up, there's no vote for those four 19 counties. 20 During your discussion of the 21 organization and structure of the MTA, did you 22 ever discuss representation by the 12 23 counties? Whisper gently. 24 SENATOR DILAN: Well, at no point
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(518) 371-8910 1 did I discuss the organization or the board of 2 the MTA. You know, we were talking about the 3 finance package and reforms, and I basically 4 worked on the financial transportation portion 5 of it. 6 SENATOR LARKIN: Would the 7 Senator continue to yield? 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 10 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 11 President. 12 SENATOR LARKIN: Do you think 13 it's proper to give us one-fourth of a vote 14 but yet charge us the same amount of taxes 15 that you charge somebody with a full vote? 16 SENATOR DILAN: Well, my 17 understanding of this is that this region, the 18 Metropolitan Commuter Region, gets services 19 from the Metropolitan Transportation 20 Authority. And we are only applying these 21 fees to that particular region. 22 All 12 counties are being treated 23 the same. We're exempting all schools within 24 that region with regard -- or reimbursing,
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(518) 371-8910 1 rather, let me correct that -- reimbursing the 2 schools within that region, the public 3 schools. 4 In regard to how the MTA operates 5 and how they apportion their votes, I did not 6 deal with that. 7 SENATOR LARKIN: Would he still 8 continue? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 12 President. 13 SENATOR LARKIN: In the MTA's 14 capital, are you aware that they have, for 15 lack of a better word, browbeat legislators in 16 both houses to provide ante-up money for 17 projects that belong to the MTA? We've paid 18 time and time again for these projects. And 19 yet we keep talking about something else. You 20 know, we're not going to do this and we're not 21 going to do that. 22 On the bill. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Senator Larkin, on the bill.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LARKIN: You know, I 2 stand here tonight totally disgusted, ashamed. 3 I can't answer my people in my district. 4 Maybe some of you can go home and hide 5 someplace; I can't. How do I tell the School 6 for the Deaf and the Blind that "We're going 7 to take money from you"? Now, let's be 8 realistic. That's stupid. 9 You know, we talk about "we're 10 going to reimburse you." Read page 11 up on 11 the top, and it says it is the intent of the 12 Governor. And a couple of pages later, it 13 says we're going to do something else. Is it 14 the intent of the Governor, or are we going to 15 force them to do it? 16 Now, we know -- I don't know if all 17 of you know; I don't know what your school 18 districts are. But my school districts are 19 telling me, We're going to borrow money. Do 20 we all realize that outside of the City of 21 New York, on the 19th of this month, school 22 districts are going to vote a school budget? 23 I'm sure that the Governor will 24 have a big press conference tomorrow and sign
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(518) 371-8910 1 this bill. But the burden we're placing on 2 the school districts is going to wrap more, 3 take people out of it. 4 We've been hearing since January 5 that the stimulus package is going to take 6 care of everything. Well, then why are school 7 districts laying people off? In Orange County 8 there's over 500 teachers and teachers' 9 assistants that have been laid off. Why? 10 Because of what we're doing today, part of it. 11 The other part is that the stimulus is going 12 to take care of it. The stimulus isn't taking 13 care of anything. 14 We ought to be ashamed of ourself, 15 truly ashamed. Look at the administrative 16 actions that are going to take place. We're 17 going to take the money from the school 18 districts, they're going to turn it over to 19 the Tax Commissioner, he's turn it over to the 20 Comptroller, the Comptroller is then going to 21 go into the MTA. They're going to set up two 22 accounts to handle it. 23 The paperwork in this is 24 unbelievable. And we sit here tonight looking
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(518) 371-8910 1 at it and laughing. It's a big deal. You can 2 ride a subway next week; I can't get a gallon 3 of gas for that price. I don't see anybody 4 coming up to me and saying, Hey, billy, here's 5 a couple of hundred dollars to buy gas. And 6 you can ride on the subways and the buses 7 cheaper than we can. 8 And then we talk about the roads 9 and bridges. They're falling apart. Oh, and 10 we got stimulus, we got stimulus. That's like 11 a song we're going to have soon. 12 We ought to be ashamed of ourself, 13 standing here tonight saying that this is what 14 we're going to do. We haven't done anything. 15 All we've done in this bill here is to say 16 that we're scared of New York City voters and 17 that we want to protect them. 18 I don't blame Senator Dilan, and I 19 don't blame Senator Perkins. They're very 20 respectable and solid individuals. But 21 somebody is sitting behind the scene. 22 And last but not least, I'm really 23 mad because I see my colleagues here asking 24 someone to yield and they won't yield. Two
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(518) 371-8910 1 reasons. One, they don't know the damn 2 answer, or number two, they want to be silent. 3 Now, let's be very serious on what 4 we're doing. We're sending young American men 5 and women into combat, to teach another 6 country democracy, responsibilities and all of 7 that. And then we come back to our own 8 country and say, I'll hide behind something 9 that says I haven't spoken, so you can't ask 10 me. 11 You know what we sound like? A 12 bunch of kids in first grade. If I can't play 13 first base, I'll taking my glove and go home. 14 We ought to be ashamed of ourself. 15 There's no other word for it. Why won't you 16 answer? You let me know, because I don't 17 believe it. 18 Thank you, Madam President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Thank you. 21 Senator Maziarz. 22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 23 much, Madam President. 24 I was wondering if my good friend
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(518) 371-8910 1 and colleague Senator Dilan would yield for a 2 couple of questions, Madam President. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Senator Dilan, will you yield? 5 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 6 President. 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 8 much, Senator. 9 And I'll get to my questions, Madam 10 President, but I do want to, again -- you 11 know, through the wonder of the Worldwide Web 12 and Twitter and YouTube and Facebook and all 13 the social networking stuff and even email 14 today, I think we're joined by the television 15 stations from Buffalo and Western New York. 16 Because I'm going to confine my questions to 17 issues involving Western New York, Senator. 18 And I do want to say, Madam 19 President, that in all my years that I've been 20 in this chamber, I don't know that I have ever 21 seen a Majority or a Minority Leader refuse to 22 yield for a question. So we're seeing history 23 made here tonight. 24 SENATOR DILAN: Point of order,
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(518) 371-8910 1 Madam President. I want to know why I'm 2 standing here. I'm standing for a question. 3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I'm getting to 4 my question. I'm getting to my question. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Senator Maziarz -- 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I'm getting to 8 my question. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Please. 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: You know, the 12 Senate Majority, under the leadership of 13 Senator Malcolm Smith, has done many things in 14 this session that have affected Western 15 New York in a very negative fashion, according 16 to some very prominent people in Western 17 New York. 18 First, there was a $550 million 19 sweep of the Niagara Power Project, which 20 Democratic Congressman Brian Higgins called -- 21 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 22 I still have a point of order as to what is 23 the question. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Maziarz -- 2 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, I'm going 3 to get to my question. Is there a list -- 4 SENATOR DILAN: Well, if he's on 5 the bill, I will sit down. 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: No. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 I think if you would direct your question at 9 Senator Dilan. And then of course if there 10 are commentaries that you'd like to make, that 11 would be appropriate. But -- 12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, Madam 13 President, through you. What I want to do is 14 point out how harmful the decisions that have 15 been made by the Senate Majority have been to 16 Western New York and how harmful this -- this 17 is like a continuation of that, and I want to 18 ask Senator Dilan about that. 19 SENATOR DILAN: Well, I'm waiting 20 for a question. That's why I have the point 21 of order. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator Maziarz, if you would pose the 24 question it would probably move this along a
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(518) 371-8910 1 bit. 2 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator Dilan, 3 there was a $550 million sweep from the 4 Niagara Power Project. Congressman Brian 5 Higgins, a Democrat, said that the Senate 6 majority -- 7 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 8 I will not be answering any questions that's 9 not related to the 12 counties within this 10 area. And Senator Maziarz has only made 11 reference to Western New York. They are not 12 part of this legislation, so I will not be 13 accepting any questions from Senator Maziarz 14 at this time. 15 Thank you very much. 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Madam 17 President, through you, I would respectfully 18 disagree with my colleague. Madam President, 19 I would respectfully disagree. 20 The people from Western New York 21 are going to be paying for the reimbursements 22 to the school districts through their New York 23 State income tax. Are they not? That's one 24 of my questions.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Dilan -- 3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Madam 4 President, through you. The reimbursements to 5 the school districts in the MTA region will 6 come from the state's General Fund, which -- 7 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 8 I gave the Senator an opportunity to ask a 9 question. He refused by continuing to speak 10 to issues that are not germane to this 11 legislation. Therefore, I am not answering 12 any of his questions. Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Maziarz, Senator Dilan will not be 15 yielding. Would you like to speak on the 16 bill? 17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: No, I would 18 like to ask if my other good friend, Senator 19 Perkins, would yield for a question. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 Senator Perkins, will you yield for a question 22 from Senator Maziarz? 23 SENATOR PERKINS: By all means, 24 Madam President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 2 much, Madam President. Thank you, Senator 3 Perkins. 4 Senator Perkins, as I was saying, I 5 think that the people of Western New York who 6 are watching this today are very much affected 7 by this, because there is a provision in this 8 bill that will provide reimbursement to those 9 school districts in the MTA region that will 10 come from the state's General Fund. And of 11 course the state's General Fund is the 12 personal income tax that's paid by people in 13 Western New York. 14 Now, we've made a lot of decisions 15 here about Western New York I think that are 16 detrimental to Western New York. I talked 17 about the sweep of the Power Authority, what 18 Congressman Brian Higgins thought about that. 19 Just the other day, we did a bill 20 that adds two commissioners to the NFTA that 21 Commissioner James Eagan, who is cochair of 22 the Senate Democratic Campaign Committee 23 finance group, said is detrimental to 24 transportation in Western New York.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Healthcare, Robert Gioia, an 2 appointee of the old former Governor Mario 3 Cuomo, said that the Senate Majority destroyed 4 healthcare in Western New York. 5 So my question to you, Senator, is 6 is it fair that constituents of Senator 7 Stachowski, of Senator Thompson, of Senator 8 Volker, of myself, are made to pay for this 9 bailout of the MTA when probably 99.9 percent 10 of them will never use the MTA? 11 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 12 Madam President. I believe there's a fairness 13 here, and I believe that we need to really 14 focus on the fact that this MTA is not just a 15 regional service or economic engine for 16 New York City but really for the whole state. 17 And so I think that while many feel 18 concerned about having to pay, we've tried 19 craft a piece of legislation that shares the 20 pain, so to speak. And so that we can have a 21 state-of-the-art MTA that can continue to be 22 an important economic engine for the state. 23 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 24 Senator Perkins.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Madam President, through you, would 2 Senator Perkins continue to yield? 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Senator Perkins, would you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR PERKINS: By all means, 6 Madam President. 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 8 Senator. I very much appreciate that. So I 9 appreciate your answer that the people of 10 Senator Stachowski's, Senator Thompson's, 11 Senator Volker's district and my district are 12 financially contributing to this bailout of 13 the New York City and Metropolitan 14 Transportation Authority downstate area. 15 I guess my question would be, 16 Senator Perkins, you know, you took the power; 17 you gave us commissioners on the NFTA that 18 even your own appointee said was unnecessary; 19 one of the major healthcare advisors here in 20 Western New York said that you nearly 21 destroyed healthcare in Western New York in 22 the budget. Do you think it's fair that we 23 should have to pay for the MTA too? 24 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you,
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(518) 371-8910 1 Madam President, I wouldn't quite agree with 2 that characterization of the budget process 3 that we all contributed to. So I can't -- I 4 can't agree with that characterization of 5 destroying anything through that budget 6 process, as you suggested someone said. They 7 may have said it; it doesn't make it a fact. 8 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, through 9 you, Madam President, I can tell you that 10 Robert Gioia, he's chairman of the Great Lakes 11 Health governing board. He was a former 12 appointee of Governor Mario Cuomo. He's not 13 of my political party, he's of yours. 14 And I can tell you exactly what he 15 said: "Words cannot express how angry I am, 16 along with the boards of the Great Lakes 17 Health, Kaleida Health, and Erie County 18 Medical Center, at the state budget passed 19 last month. Simply stated, the 2009-2010 20 state budget is the worst I've seen in my 21 55 years as a resident of Western New York. 22 The men and women of the Western New York 23 legislative delegation who voted for this 24 budget" -- and I will add my own words there;
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(518) 371-8910 1 there were only two, Senator Thompson and 2 Senator Stachowski -- "should apologize to 3 their constituents and the taxpayers of 4 Western New York. They had an opportunity to 5 achieve something great for Western New York. 6 Instead, they dealt it a catastrophic blow." 7 That's what they said, Senator. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Was there a question? 10 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Would you -- 11 I'm sorry, would you change your 12 characterization after hearing what Mr. Gioia 13 had to say? 14 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 15 Madam President, no, I wouldn't. 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Madam 17 President, I would ask if -- thank you very 18 much, Senator. I appreciate your -- I would 19 ask if Senator Dilan would yield for a 20 question. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 Senator Dilan, do you yield? 23 SENATOR DILAN: I just want to 24 make a point of order, Madam President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 I gave Senator Maziarz three 2 opportunities to ask me a question. And I am 3 not going to subject myself to the role that 4 he's playing here in the Senate chambers. 5 Thank you. 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 7 Madam President. I think that the people of 8 Western New York who are watching tonight 9 deserve answers to their questions. 10 But, Madam President, I would ask 11 if Senator Larkin would yield for a question. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Senator Larkin, do you yield for a question? 14 SENATOR LARKIN: Yes. 15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator Larkin, 16 thank you very much for yielding to a 17 question. 18 Senator, you stated earlier during 19 your question period that there is a school in 20 your district that educates deaf and blind 21 children, that they will be charged the 22 payroll tax and they will not be reimbursed. 23 Did I understand you correctly, Senator? 24 SENATOR LARKIN: That's exactly
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(518) 371-8910 1 the way they're saying it from SED, and it's 2 also in Westchester County also. 3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator, it's 4 unbelievable. I have to ask you again. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Senator Maziarz -- 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Through you, 8 Madam President, I'm sorry. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Are you still asking Senator Larkin to yield? 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I am. Through 12 you, Madam President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Larkin, do you yield? 15 SENATOR LARKIN: Most certainly. 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I apologize. I 17 apologize, Madam President. I was in such a 18 state of shock that this would happen. 19 Senator Larkin, Malcolm Smith and 20 the Senate Democratic Majority are going to 21 impose a tax on a school that educates blind 22 and deaf children and not reimburse them? 23 SENATOR LARKIN: That's exactly 24 what they're telling them.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 2 Senator Larkin. 3 Madam President, on the bill. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Maziarz on the bill. 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I think this 7 bill can use some drastic improvement, Madam 8 President. 9 Thank you. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Thank you. 12 Senator Morahan. 13 SENATOR MORAHAN: Thank you, 14 Madam President. 15 I represent the County of Rockland 16 and the County of Orange. These two counties 17 are part of the 12, and they're the only two 18 counties that are shortchanged seriously by 19 the MTA. 20 To give you an example, the County 21 of Orange receives $63.5 million from the MTA 22 in services and direct payments. However, the 23 same county, the County of Orange, pays to the 24 MTA $95.5 million. So there's a value gap of
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(518) 371-8910 1 almost $32 million between the MTA services 2 and what they collect through sales and 3 mortgage taxes and those sorts of devices from 4 the people of Orange County, $31 million. 5 Now we're going to lay upon that a 6 tax that will be directly related to the 7 school tax by taxing their government, their 8 county, their villages and their towns, on top 9 of the $32 million that they're already being 10 shortchanged yearly by the MTA. 11 The other county, Rockland County, 12 which I represent has a $42 million value gap. 13 We receive, in Rockland, $46.5 million from 14 MTA services, but we give the MTA over 15 $88 million annually, leaving us with a 16 $42 million value gap. 17 They're the only two counties in 18 the 12-county MTA region who have such a value 19 gap or any value gap. We're the only two. 20 That's number one. 21 I have received today a legislative 22 resolution passed by the County of Rockland 23 asking for state legislation to withdraw from 24 the MTA. They figure they can provide the
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(518) 371-8910 1 services a whole lot cheaper by contract and 2 have a net savings to the taxpayers. 3 I've received copies of two 4 letters, one to the MTA and one to myself, 5 going back as far as December of 2008 6 complaining to the MTA that Rockland County 7 receives very little service. 8 Now the employers in Rockland 9 County are now going to be taxed on a payroll. 10 And I would venture to say if there's two 11 employees in the County of Rockland who use an 12 MTA service to get to their place of 13 employment, it's one too many. 14 So now we're going to have to pay 15 school tax. And I heard Senator Dilan's 16 answer on the school tax. That yes we're 17 going reimburse you in one section. In the 18 second section, it says however, if there's no 19 appropriation to reimburse you, we'll let you 20 ride for six months, just like a car dealer, 21 as Senator Bonacic said, but after that you're 22 liable for that tax reimbursement or no 23 reimbursement. So that's a check-in-the-mail 24 kind of promise.
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(518) 371-8910 1 So as far as I'm concerned, this 2 bill, which I really -- I would ask Senator 3 Perkins would he yield for a question. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Perkins, will you yield for a 6 question? 7 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes, Madam 8 President. 9 SENATOR MORAHAN: Thank you, 10 Senator. 11 Senator Larkin asked you a few 12 moments back whether you received any of these 13 letters anti this particular bill or this 14 approach. My question is, did you receive any 15 letters of support? 16 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 17 Madam President. We received probably more 18 communications of support for our effort to 19 fix the crisis than we received that were 20 opposed to fixing the crisis. 21 In fact, I must say since I've been 22 here, I have received more emails and related 23 types of communications of urgency about 24 fixing this crisis than anything I've ever
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(518) 371-8910 1 received before. 2 SENATOR MORAHAN: I agree with 3 you, there was a sense of urgency and people 4 wanted this Senate to address the problem, 5 they wanted this Senate's leadership to make 6 substantial moves. And I know I received 7 those sorts of emails as well. 8 But I don't know how many letters 9 of support [using air quotes] you're going to 10 get from the other seven counties outside of 11 New York to fix this crisis in the MTA. I 12 didn't receive one from within my district. 13 Thank you, Senator. 14 So as a matter of fairness, I think 15 there ought to be some adjustment in the MTA 16 budget that would provide the counties of 17 Orange and Rockland the services or 18 reimbursement, if you will, so that we could 19 be on a level playing field with the other 20 10 counties that have a value received equal 21 to what their commitment is to. This is going 22 to make that value gap a great deal larger. 23 And I will be submitting a bill at 24 the request of the Legislature in Rockland
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(518) 371-8910 1 County, who voted unanimously, both parties, 2 to withdraw from the MTA. And in the past, 3 they did get assurances from governors going 4 back that, if it got bad, the governors would 5 let them off the hook and get out of the MTA 6 if they decided to do that. 7 That's how bad it is in Rockland 8 County, and I believe it's equally bad in 9 Orange County. And I would not be surprised 10 if I received a request for home rule to 11 withdraw from the MTA. You can't have, 12 between those two counties, a $75 million 13 shortfall and then impose upon them a payroll 14 tax, impose upon them a property tax increase 15 when you have that payroll tax hit the county, 16 the towns and the villages, and with some sort 17 of shell game going on with reimbursement of 18 the public schools, which may or may not 19 happen. 20 And we have plenty of evidence here 21 with the holding back of prior commitments, 22 either through member initiatives or through 23 capital programs where the Governor said we're 24 not going to do it.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Now they're going to have to 2 believe the same Governor who's saying he's 3 going to do it if the money is there. And 4 then he says if the money is there, but we 5 have another crisis coming of another 6 $17 billion shortfall. And the stimulus 7 package will be used up. 8 So I don't know if we lose our 9 credibility, like the MTA has lost all its 10 credibility. They're already talking that 11 this isn't going to fix the problem to their 12 liking. But it was brought up earlier here we 13 need to know an honest answer about the MTA. 14 The one thing Senator Smith said 15 that I totally agree with in the very 16 beginning is before we did anything, we should 17 have a forensic audit done on the MTA to find 18 out what they could do, what they could do to 19 make it better, what they could do to make it 20 more efficient. Because it seems to me with 21 the fares they're raising, I think private 22 industry, if they had a shot, would be running 23 those railroads a whole lot cheaper. 24 So I am compelled to vote against
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(518) 371-8910 1 this budget with its totally harmful, 2 job-killing, property-tax-raising for the 3 County of Orange and the County of Rockland, 4 who get no equal treatment by the MTA -- and 5 we're on the short end of the stick already 6 for almost $75 million, now to be compounded. 7 I will be voting in the negative. 8 Thank you, Madam President. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Thank you, Senator. 11 Senator Golden. 12 SENATOR GOLDEN: Thank you, Madam 13 President. Would Senator Dilan please yield. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Senator Dilan, would you yield for a question? 16 SENATOR DILAN: Yes, Madam 17 President. 18 SENATOR GOLDEN: Senator Dilan, I 19 know it's been a long and tenuous going back 20 and forth. I'm going to be brief, with about 21 five or six questions, and they're not too 22 technical, so hopefully we can get some 23 answers and move on. 24 You know, we all need a bill done.
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(518) 371-8910 1 We all know that we want to have our buses and 2 our trains running. We know how important it 3 is for the people of the City of New York. 4 And I was just wondering, as to process, what 5 else was taken into consideration before we 6 accepted the plan that's before us today. 7 Did other areas, were they 8 reviewed, such as the congestion pricing that 9 could have been reviewed in the City of 10 New York to bring in hundreds of millions of 11 dollars? Was that part of the process? Was 12 that reviewed? 13 SENATOR DILAN: Well, originally 14 there was the Ravitch Commission report, which 15 I think that we're all familiar with, which 16 included the tolls. There was plenty of 17 discussion regarding tolls, and that was 18 something that was apparently not acceptable 19 to many members of -- several Senators. 20 There were other options that were 21 discussed. A gasoline tax was discussed. 22 There were many, many options during this 23 whole process that were talked about. And 24 many of them were very public, through the
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(518) 371-8910 1 media and in other discussions. 2 SENATOR GOLDEN: Will Senator 3 Dilan continue to yield? 4 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 5 SENATOR GOLDEN: Was the 6 cigarette tax from the Indian reservations, 7 was that ever brought up? I believe about -- 8 in the numbers that we have, it's well over a 9 billion dollars a year that can be brought in. 10 Was that discussed? 11 SENATOR DILAN: It was not 12 discussed as part of this package. But I 13 don't know if there are any Indian 14 reservations within the 12-county region. 15 SENATOR GOLDEN: There are. 16 SENATOR DILAN: There are? 17 SENATOR GOLDEN: There are. 18 The -- 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Are you asking Senator Dilan to continue to 21 yield? 22 SENATOR GOLDEN: Yes, if you 23 will, Senator Dilan. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 3 SENATOR GOLDEN: Was a statewide 4 buyout, was that considered? There are 45,000 5 employees that are capable of taking a buyout 6 that would have generated over a billion 7 dollars in funds. Was that discussed? 8 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 9 my answer is going to be the same. There were 10 many options that were discussed. These were 11 not the only ones. There were many changes or 12 discussions that were going on. There were 13 options that were within the initial bill that 14 was reported out of the Transportation 15 Committee, referred to Finance. So there were 16 many options that were discussed. 17 If this were an easy solution, it 18 probably would have been resolved earlier this 19 year. And in many cases, any revenue sources, 20 we were always talking about the region and 21 not things that pertain outside of the region. 22 SENATOR GOLDEN: Thank you, 23 Senator Dilan. 24 Would you continue to yield?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Dilan, will you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 5 SENATOR GOLDEN: It's along the 6 same line. I'm trying to get answers. I know 7 that there was a lot discussed, and I'm trying 8 to get yes or no answers to some of these 9 questions. I know they're difficult, some of 10 them. Some of them may have been discussed; 11 some may not have been discussed. 12 But one I think is important for 13 all of us is the stimulus dollars. There's 14 $7 billion this year, $8 billion next year. 15 And I know that most of this dollars going to 16 the MTA are for operating dollars when in fact 17 not too long ago we had a plan that would have 18 taken care of the operating as well as the 19 capital plan. 20 So I wanted to know if we had 21 included the thought of the stimulus money for 22 this year and for next year as part of the 23 process of getting the MTA out of this 24 bailout.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DILAN: So your question 2 is whether the stimulus package was discussed? 3 SENATOR GOLDEN: Yes, and how 4 would it have played a role. Did it play a 5 role in the discussion -- 6 SENATOR DILAN: It's only for 7 capital, and there were apparently guidelines 8 that the federal government had regarding the 9 stimulus package. 10 It's my understanding that the MTA 11 did receive stimulus money. However, for some 12 reason or other, maybe federal regulation or 13 some other law or regulation, none of that 14 money is being used in this particular 15 package. 16 I know I do have a very large 17 computerized spreadsheets of millions and 18 millions of dollars that have been provided 19 from the stimulus package for roads and 20 highways outside of the MTA region that's 21 being used for that. 22 SENATOR GOLDEN: If the good 23 Senator would continue to yield. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 3 SENATOR GOLDEN: I know that 4 there was an awful lot of stimulus money we 5 can't trace it out, and we've been asking 6 Finance to help us find out where a lot of 7 that stimulus money is. But we haven't been 8 able to find all that $7 billion in stimulus. 9 And we'd like to find out, if you 10 can, if you can get us some of those numbers. 11 I know of the numbers have been released on 12 some of the roads and highways, but nothing 13 near to the number that has been stipulated 14 for this year from the federal government. 15 And that's why I brought up the 16 stimulus money would have obviously really 17 helped us had we been able to use that money, 18 this year and next year, to be able to get us 19 out of the bind that we're in today and to 20 make sure we had a capital program going 21 forward. So that was the reasons for my 22 questions on the stimulus money. 23 I'm going to change my -- and I 24 know some of these questions are redundant to
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(518) 371-8910 1 a degree. But it's just to get an idea of 2 where your conference may go in the future. 3 And I know we've talk about school districts. 4 And we've talked about money going back to the 5 school districts. And we've talked about the 6 parochials, the privates, and the charters on 7 how there is no money stipulated. 8 Do you plan in the future to deal 9 with trying to make them whole as we go 10 forward in some other way or form through the 11 budget process? 12 SENATOR DILAN: Can he just 13 rephrase? Because I was getting background 14 noise and I couldn't hear clearly. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Golden, would you rephrase your 17 question? 18 SENATOR GOLDEN: In the MTA 19 bailout plan we have money going back to the 20 public school districts. We don't have any 21 money going back to the private, the parochial 22 and the charter schools. And what I'm asking 23 is does your conference in the future plan to 24 correct that outside of this MTA bailout plan?
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DILAN: Well, the 2 New York State Senate -- and once this 3 legislation is passed, approved by the other 4 house and the Governor -- and I've been 5 basically dealing with the revenue sources. 6 But during discussions, it's been my 7 understanding, and the reforms and the 8 forensic audit that we're talking about, if 9 the forensic audit would show that there would 10 be significant savings or other sources of 11 revenues that could be used to reduce the 12 payroll tax or to realize savings or 13 stabilizing the fares in the future, of course 14 we're going to do that. 15 That's the purpose of the forensic 16 audit and the reforms that are included in 17 this package. And I think Senator Perkins has 18 been articulating that tonight. 19 And we're going to do everything 20 possible to ensure that the MTA really lives 21 and completes their original mission of when 22 they were first established, the mission of 23 the Metropolitan Transportation Authority was 24 to be self-sustaining. And that is the goal
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(518) 371-8910 1 here, Madam President. 2 SENATOR GOLDEN: Would the good 3 Senator continue to yield, Madam President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 6 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 7 SENATOR GOLDEN: My question was, 8 will those private, parochial and charter 9 schools be made whole? And your answer to me 10 is yes, it will, after we do a forensic rotate 11 audit of the MTA. Did I understand that 12 correctly? 13 SENATOR DILAN: It is the hope 14 that after a forensic audit. 15 And it is the hope that if our 16 economy recovers, it is the hope that if real 17 estate taxes -- or revenues, rather, make a 18 comeback, that the Metropolitan Transportation 19 Authority can operate on a self-sustaining 20 basis. And it would not only help all those 21 particular schools or agencies you mentioned 22 but also businesses in the region and in the 23 State of New York. 24 SENATOR GOLDEN: And if the good
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator will still yield, Madam President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 4 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 5 SENATOR GOLDEN: Along the same 6 line, there are many not-for-profits that have 7 been hit across the 12-county area. The 8 numbers are astounding to some of our 9 not-for-profits that work with our seniors, 10 our homeless, housing, and kids. 11 And will that be part of the 12 process, to try to get the not-for-profits 13 made whole as well, going forward? 14 SENATOR DILAN: I would have to 15 give the same response that it is our hope 16 that at some point the Metropolitan 17 Transportation Authority would be able to 18 operate on a self-sustaining basis where we 19 would not have to resort to these measures in 20 subsidizing their operation. 21 Again, the purpose of the reforms 22 and the forensic audit and all the other 23 issues on transparency is so the public can 24 know how the MTA operates and to bring them
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(518) 371-8910 1 back to their original mission of becoming a 2 self-sustaining authority. 3 And I'm not clairvoyant, so I would 4 like to tell the Senator that I cannot predict 5 the future. 6 SENATOR GOLDEN: Would the good 7 Senator continue? I've only got about three 8 or four more questions. 9 SENATOR DILAN: I remember he 10 said he only had six, but -- 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 13 SENATOR DILAN: Yes. 14 SENATOR GOLDEN: Changing in a 15 different direction, the 50-cent taxi charge, 16 did anybody think that we may not create a 17 little bit of competition and a little bit of 18 war with the livery car services now in the 19 City of New York that will probably be in the 20 City of New York competing with those Yellow 21 taxis? Did that come up in the negotiations? 22 SENATOR DILAN: Madam President, 23 there were many items that were considered 24 during discussion regarding this issue. And
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(518) 371-8910 1 there were considerations of what happened in 2 previous years in the budget. We're talking 3 about here within the City of New York 4 charging the medallion cabs this additional 5 fee. 6 We tried to find alternative 7 revenue sources, but it's a very difficult 8 situation that we're in. And with regard to 9 competition, we were also considering how you 10 would collect these fees from one particular 11 type of private vehicles or medallions. So 12 there were many things that were taken into 13 consideration. And this is the things that we 14 considered. 15 A medallion cab and the purpose of 16 the medallion is that you can publicly hailed. 17 A livery service is something that you have to 18 previously contract or call for that 19 particular service. So with respect to 20 competition, you cannot hail a livery cab. 21 You cannot hail a black car. The purpose of 22 the medallion is that you can hail them 23 anywhere within the region. 24 SENATOR GOLDEN: Thank you, good
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator, for that answer. But if the good 2 Senator continues, we all know, going through 3 our communities, we hail black cars and 4 liveries on a regular basis in the outer 5 boroughs. And I've seen it in New York City 6 as well, when it's raining or when there's no 7 cabs available, that we're able to hail these 8 cars. 9 But I'm going to change direction. 10 I've got two more questions, possibly, and one 11 is again on the not-for-profits, if the good 12 Senator continues to yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Dilan, do you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR DILAN: I will yield for 16 two more questions. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 18 For two more questions, Senator Golden. 19 SENATOR GOLDEN: The 20 not-for-profits that we talked about in my 21 community -- Lutheran Medical, the hospitals, 22 Maimonides, Downstate Hospital, my nursing 23 homes, my senior centers, they're going to be 24 impacted pretty severely. And I was just,
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(518) 371-8910 1 when I was going through the bill, I seen that 2 the Port Authority -- is the Port Authority 3 exempted from paying any -- 4 SENATOR DILAN: What was that? 5 SENATOR GOLDEN: The Port 6 Authority. 7 SENATOR DILAN: Are they 8 exempted? 9 SENATOR GOLDEN: Yes. 10 SENATOR DILAN: From payroll tax? 11 SENATOR GOLDEN: Yes. 12 SENATOR DILAN: My answer is yes. 13 SENATOR GOLDEN: I don't know -- 14 SENATOR DILAN: He has one 15 question left. 16 SENATOR GOLDEN: No, no, no. 17 Well, I've seen that the U.N. is also -- is 18 the U.N. also exempted? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Is that your second question? 21 SENATOR GOLDEN: Well, if he 22 wants to use that as the second question, 23 that's fine. 24 And why, is the question I would
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(518) 371-8910 1 ask. Why would you exempt the Port Authority, 2 and why would you exempt the U.N? 3 SENATOR DILAN: Well, first of 4 all, within his previous question he was 5 talking about various not-for-profits and 6 organizations within his district that will be 7 impacted. But I'd like to remind the good 8 Senator that also his constituents that ride 9 subways, buses, will also be impacted. 10 And to answer his final question, 11 the reason that the United Nations is exempted 12 is because we have do not have the authority 13 as a state legislature to tax the United 14 Nations, which is an international body. 15 And that was his final question. 16 Thank you very much. 17 SENATOR GOLDEN: Well, I didn't 18 get an answer to the Port Authority, as to why 19 the Port Authority was exempted. 20 SENATOR DILAN: The Port 21 Authority is a multistate agency, New York, 22 New Jersey. So it's the same answer. 23 Thank you very much, Madam 24 President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR GOLDEN: Thank you, good 2 Senator. 3 On the bill. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Golden, on the bill. 6 SENATOR GOLDEN: I find it 7 amazing that the people in our communities in 8 the city and in the 12-county area are going 9 to, you know, be satisfied to listen that, 10 well, the Port Authority, we didn't do that 11 because it -- you know, cross-state 12 multiagency. But yet we're going to take a 13 school district that's cross-county and we're 14 going to find a way to tax the part that's in 15 the county that's taxable versus the county 16 part that's not taxable. So we found a way do 17 that, but we're going to exempt the Port 18 Authority. 19 My people in my community are going 20 to be very happy about that. And they're 21 going to be very happy to find out that the 22 U.N. was exempted as well, I think because we 23 didn't have the authority to do that. I think 24 they'll be very impressed to find out that the
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(518) 371-8910 1 people that most use the services are not 2 going to pay for them. 3 They'll be very impressed to find 4 out that we didn't do a congestion pricing 5 plan to go for the people that come in and use 6 the services in the city, such as the fire, 7 the police, the ambulances, the hospitals, the 8 parks. They're going to be very happy to find 9 out what our good colleagues here, the Senate 10 Democrats, did in putting this bill forward 11 and taxing the people in my community and in 12 the communities of the 12 counties. 13 They're going to be very -- you 14 know, I think the good Majority Leader had 15 spoken about how we're not going to do 16 anything until we have a top-to-bottom review 17 of that agency and find out where that money 18 is. And I read in the bill and I see "may," I 19 don't see "shall." I see that we may or may 20 not have a date as to when that top-to-bottom 21 review will be made, how this forensic 22 accounting would be done, when this forensic 23 accounting would be accountable to, and when 24 we would have a report on that forensic
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(518) 371-8910 1 accounting. 2 And all of the money that we've 3 discussed here today with my good colleague as 4 to being able to restore money to our 5 parochials, our privates, our charters, and to 6 our not-for-profits. You know, it was a nice 7 answer, but we all know that that's not going 8 to happen. 9 It's also very interesting that we 10 as a state, my colleagues in the Democratic 11 side, the other side of this room, passed a 12 budget that went from $119 billion in spending 13 and went to $132 billion in spending. And 14 they took $7 billion in stimulus, and they put 15 it in an increase in spending. And they've 16 increased taxes and fees by $8 billion, and 17 now we've just added another $2.2 billion to 18 spending, which is over $10 billion in 19 spending on taxes and fees that was created 20 here by my Senate colleagues, the Democrats. 21 My people in my community are going 22 to be very interested to see how we went from 23 $119 billion to $132 billion, and now we just 24 went another $2 billion, that's $134 billion.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Let me see. We're not finished yet with 2 the -- what is it, the capital program is not 3 finished yet, so we're going to have to do 4 some more on the capital program for the MTA. 5 And we haven't yet done the roads yet and 6 bridges for upstate, but we're going to do 7 that by the end of the year. 8 So let me see, what are we up to, 9 about $140 billion in spending here in the 10 State of New York? My people are going to be 11 very interested to hear that. We owed the 12 taxpayer, we owed the people of this great 13 city and state, we owed them more what we gave 14 them. We gave them nothing. In the worst 15 economic times that we've seen or witnessed. 16 And it's only going to get worse 17 here. By the end of the year, the way the 18 spending here in this conference is going, our 19 Democratic colleagues, with the Governor and 20 with the Assembly, are taxing our families out 21 of existence in this great state. 22 There's a couple of trains out 23 there. There's a runaway train, it's the 24 runaway spending train, followed by a runaway
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(518) 371-8910 1 taxing train. And that train, the runaway 2 taxing train, is the fuel for the spending 3 train. And guess what? It's on a one-way 4 track. 5 Some people will think, hey, this 6 might be Governor Paterson's revival for 7 upstate, and taking all of the people out of 8 the City of New York and bringing them 9 upstate. 10 But we all know that the people 11 upstate are just as burdened and will be just 12 as burdened when this program, road program 13 and bridge program, is completed. So we all 14 know that these two runaway trains are on a 15 track out of the State of New York, with our 16 families, with our children, with our seniors. 17 Because they can't afford to stay here, they 18 won't be able to get jobs here, they will not 19 be able to maintain their homes here because 20 we allowed this runaway spending train to get 21 to $140 billion in the year 2009. And we are 22 very close to that right now. 23 I know that the people across the 24 city and across the 12 counties and across
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(518) 371-8910 1 this state are not going to be satisfied with 2 what this body has done. We are accountable 3 to those people. We are accountable to those 4 families. And we let them down. 5 I vote no, Madam President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Marcellino. 8 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 9 Madam President. 10 The hour is late, so I don't intend 11 to ask any Senators to yield. I just would 12 like to make a couple of comments relative to 13 this bailout package, which I consider to 14 be -- no pun intended -- a train wreck looking 15 for a place to happen. 16 This bill is massive. You've heard 17 before, you've heard from my colleagues 18 earlier about the taxes, you've heard about 19 the schools, you've heard about the 20 repayments, you've heard about all of this. 21 The colloquy has been going on and on and on. 22 We were given a bill, given about an hour to 23 look at this bill and to review it before we 24 had to come on the floor and debate a very
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(518) 371-8910 1 extensive and very complex piece of 2 legislation. 3 Let me read something to you. This 4 was done in 2007. "To its credit, the MTA has 5 outlined a multiyear plan to balance the 2009 6 budget and to reduce future-year budget gaps 7 to manageable levels. The July plan, however, 8 fails to deliver on past promises to reduce 9 unnecessary waste and duplication. Last year 10 the MTA achieved only 41 percent of its 11 planned cost-reduction target, which was 12 modest from the outset." 13 This is a statement written in 2007 14 by the Comptroller of the State of New York, 15 Thomas DiNapoli, an analysis of a plan 16 proposed by the MTA to cut costs, to create 17 efficiencies that it made itself. And it says 18 very clearly here that you've only done 19 41 percent of what you said the MTA could do. 20 Now, who's watching the store here? 21 I hear a statement that we had to do this 22 thing and it had to be done immediately, we 23 were under severe pressure, that this only 24 came up recently. This is nonsense. This was
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(518) 371-8910 1 in 2007. I don't think Tom DiNapoli -- I've 2 known him for many years. He's a great guy, 3 but he's not a soothsayer. He can't see into 4 the future, but he clearly did here. He 5 predicted a shortfall. He predicted that the 6 MTA didn't do what it said it could do. 7 I heard my good friend Senator 8 Perkins talk about an audit. I heard Senator 9 Dilan, another good friend, talk about a 10 possible forensic audit. 11 I read this bill. I read this 12 bill; there's nothing in there. On page 37, 13 starting on line 46, it talks about a possible 14 independent audit may be -- the word "may" is 15 used, it may be ordered by the Speaker and the 16 Majority Leader. May be. No requirement 17 here. I also don't see the word "shall" in 18 here. I don't see the word "must" in here. I 19 think you have to do that. 20 The MTA is a $7 billion plus 21 entity. It has thousands of employees. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, do you know that it has 23 400 people in its public relations department? 24 Four hundred people. Four hundred people to
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(518) 371-8910 1 do what? Say what a great entity this is? 2 The MTA is a disaster. It is the 3 worst-run authority in the state. Nobody 4 believes them, nobody. Not even the 5 Comptroller of the State of New York trusts 6 their numbers. No one. You can't go anywhere 7 in this state and mention the MTA without 8 getting something thrown at you. 9 This entity has lied, it has 10 misrepresented its books, misrepresented its 11 budget. The Long Island Railroad alone, as it 12 was discovered recently by the Attorney 13 General of the State of New York -- last time 14 I looked, he was a Democrat -- by the Attorney 15 General, he said that 89 percent of the Long 16 Island Railroad workers go out on workers' 17 comp pensions. On a disability pension. 18 How can that be? We have 19 firefighters and police who really do 20 heavy-duty work, and they don't go out on 21 those kind of pensions. Yet 89 percent of the 22 Long Island Railroad pensioners get a 23 disability. Fraud. Absolute fraud under 24 investigation now by our own Attorney General.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Where's the audit? Who's watching 2 the store? Who's going to hold them to the 3 fact that if we give them all this money -- as 4 Senator Dilan points out, billions, almost 5 $3 billion -- $2.5 billion is going to be 6 handed to them in the hopes that it's going to 7 be used appropriately. 8 Who's going to see that it is? 9 Who's going to ask them the question, Why do 10 you need so many people in public relation? 11 Why are you doing it? Where's the 12 duplication? 13 It's nice to have an audit that 14 adds up the books. I have some experience in 15 writing legislation requiring audits from 16 people who don't necessarily want to be 17 audited. I wrote the legislation, along with 18 Tom DiNapoli, then an Assemblyman, to audit 19 the school districts. The school districts 20 all said they didn't need audits, they didn't 21 need to be audited, they did everything right. 22 Roslyn proved them wrong. 23 The numbers in the Roslyn school 24 district added up. They added up. You added
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(518) 371-8910 1 them down this way, you added them across, 2 they all added up. But they were still in the 3 district blind. Yet they said, We don't need 4 to be audited. 5 The legislation that I authored 6 required an audit. And by the way, we gave 7 the Comptroller's office money. We put an 8 appropriation in the bill to give them money 9 so they could hire additional people. There's 10 nothing in this bill that authorizes that. 11 There's nothing in this bill that gives them 12 additional money to do extra work. We're 13 asking them to do extra work. 14 It talks about hiring an outside 15 auditor. Why? Why do we have to go outside? 16 We have a Comptroller, a perfectly legitimate 17 office. We have an Attorney General who we 18 all respect and trust, quite frankly. Why 19 don't we let them do it? Let them do their 20 job. That's what they're hired for. That's 21 what the people want them to do. Let them do 22 it. Why do we have to go outside? Who's 23 going to pay for that? Where is the money for 24 it? It's not in this bill. It's not in this
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(518) 371-8910 1 piece of legislation. 2 Madam President, this bill is a 3 sham. This bill is a taxing entity. This 4 bill promises we intend to pay you back, 5 schools, we intend to. Sounds like "the check 6 is in the mail." Sounds like "I'll respect 7 you in the morning." But this is what this 8 bill does. It does nothing. It talks a lot, 9 it discusses a lot, but it doesn't do what 10 it's supposed to do, and that is hold the MTA 11 to a very high standard. A very high 12 standard. 13 They're getting a lot of money, an 14 awful lot of money. In addition to $8 billion 15 in new taxes, we're spending another 16 $2.5 billion here. So we've raised spending 17 $10 billion in just this term alone, and we're 18 not even through yet. That's a lot of money 19 going down the line here. That's a huge 20 amount of money coming out of the pockets of 21 our taxpayers, from the entire state. 22 Everybody pays those income taxes. That's 23 going to take the General Fund. Everybody 24 pays these taxes, and the 12 counties
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(518) 371-8910 1 downstate are all going to get ripped off. 2 This is not a good piece of 3 legislation that is being rushed. Two 4 hearings, only in the City of New York. What 5 happened to Long Island? We don't count? 6 What happened to Buffalo? They don't count? 7 What happened to Syracuse? They don't count? 8 Come on, guys. Come on, guys. 9 This is ridiculous. We should have had more 10 time. This was pointed out in 2007, there was 11 a problem. We did a budget this year. This 12 should have been done in the state budget. 13 This should have been done as part 14 of the state budget, not a separate entity. 15 It didn't need to be done separately. When 16 you're talking about money, there should have 17 been appropriations done. And the proper 18 place to do an appropriation is in the state 19 budget when we do a state budget, not weeks 20 later. 21 Not negotiating with three Senators 22 over here who say, We won't vote for it 23 because you're going to put tolls, so we won't 24 support it. So we won't do tolls. Or two
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senators who say, We won't vote for this 2 because we're going to hold the schools 3 harmless, and everything stops. And we've got 4 to negotiate this and negotiate that. 5 This should have been done at the 6 appropriate time when the situation was right, 7 when we could have done the proper amount of 8 budgeting and the proper amount of auditing 9 and asking all the right questions. 10 Madam President, I fully intend to 11 vote no on this piece of legislation. As I 12 said before, it is a disaster. We are going 13 to rue the day that we bring this up. We're 14 going to be paying for this down the line, and 15 the voters of this state are not going to 16 forget who votes for this bill. 17 I for one am going to keep 18 reminding them for the next two years who 19 voted for this bill. This is a disgrace. 20 I intend to vote no, Madam 21 President. I thank you for your indulgence. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Thank you. 24 Senator LaValle.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LaVALLE: Thank you, 2 Madam President. I rise to speak on the MTA 3 bailout bill. 4 I'd like to just start by reminding 5 everyone historically, during the 1960s, there 6 was a movement fought that we needed to create 7 superagencies, that went to creating 8 authorities that would be off-budget and we 9 would be able to do what we needed to do and 10 at that time with not a lot of scrutiny. 11 We today find that the MTA has 12 really, structurally, not really changed. And 13 so I heard Senator Perkins talked about fixing 14 the crisis, fixing the crisis. Fixing the 15 crisis is not raising taxes and fees. That is 16 not fixing the crisis. 17 I've been very fortunate -- and I 18 would tell you there are two social futurists, 19 Alvin and Heidi Toffler, and they wrote a 20 series of books. And one -- actually, two of 21 the books that really point out where we are 22 today and where we have been is the third wave 23 in the creation of the a new civilization. 24 Toffler points out that we have moved or
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(518) 371-8910 1 should be moving from the industrial 2 revolution into the technological age. 3 We are using, in too many 4 instances, industrial revolution fixes that 5 don't apply today. And we wonder why we have 6 the problems that we have today. 7 The MTA needs to be gutted. And we 8 need to think out of the box to recreate how 9 do we provide transit services to the people 10 in the 12-county region. This solution only 11 begs in a year or two for a crash. A crash. 12 We fail sometimes to look at what 13 is going on around us -- recession, 14 depression, whatever it is -- and what's 15 happening with the lending institutions. How 16 does that all apply to this situation? And 17 I'm saying all we're using is a BandAid, a 18 BandAid that continues to hurt people. 19 During the budget -- a month ago, 20 just a little more than a month ago, on this 21 floor -- people said, you know, this is not a 22 great bill, but we're trying to do the best we 23 can to fix a crisis because of the economy. 24 It has been mentioned several times
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(518) 371-8910 1 that we have increased taxes and fees on 2 people $10.4 billion, $10.4 billion. People 3 are beginning to find out some of these fees. 4 Like May 1st, wine and beer tax. A lot of 5 people -- I think our agencies haven't even 6 communicated with restaurants and other 7 entities that have to pay this tax. 8 But when I'm home, people keep 9 stopping me and saying, "Is anyone listening? 10 Is anyone listening?" And you know, I hear 11 stories about people who are -- and you hear 12 these stories too. "I'm working two jobs. I 13 just think I'm getting to the top of the 14 ladder, and someone pulls the rungs and I'm 15 down again. My utilities are going up, my 16 school district taxes are going up." On and 17 on and on. 18 These are, as my father used to 19 say, the little people, the people that really 20 count in our society. And we are not serving 21 them. We are not serving them. This is not a 22 fix. It is not a fix. 23 On top of it, what do I tell 24 people? Not only have we imposed all these
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(518) 371-8910 1 taxes, we took your rebate checks away. What? 2 What? Yes, the rebate checks in the budget 3 were taken away from you. And we did not do 4 it. 5 And, you know, and I'm going to say 6 over and over before I finish that I, for 7 one -- and I don't think it's an act of 8 cowardice, but I'm not going to be part of 9 "the Legislature" as many newspapers report, 10 Because there are authors on this bill. There 11 were authors on the budget bill. And there 12 was not one Republican who was an author of 13 either the budget or this. We did not impose 14 taxes. We are not imposing and crushing 15 people with this bill. 16 Jobs. Everyone talks about jobs, 17 the creation of jobs. What we're doing with 18 this is this is a killer. I've already 19 talked -- and a lot of people didn't think 20 that this was going to happen, because in our 21 local newspapers a lot of -- well, a couple of 22 people said they were not going support this, 23 so people believed that the payroll tax was 24 not going to happen. They believed it.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Sometime tomorrow, next week or 2 whenever, they will know that the payroll tax 3 did happen. And it may affect them when their 4 boss comes up to them and says goodbye: I 5 have a payroll tax, and I have to make cuts. 6 Or I have to cut benefits. Or I have to do 7 something. 8 We're talking about real people 9 here. These are real people. And you know 10 that. And we're doing this, again, to them. 11 Not us as Republicans. But I think the 12 Democrats are the authors of these measures. 13 We have -- this applies, as 14 everyone knows, and I'm just going to go 15 through the school districts, not-for-profits, 16 for-profits, municipal entities. But somehow 17 we cut out the school districts. We're going 18 to reimburse them. 19 People are asking me, and quite 20 honestly, I was staff here once, and I would 21 have said just do it clean and easy. Exempt 22 the schools. Exempt the schools. 23 So I get a letter -- Senator Foley 24 got one, Johnson, Oppenheimer and
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(518) 371-8910 1 Stewart-Cousins -- from the Longwood Central 2 School District. And it goes: "The proposed 3 MTA payroll tax on employers will have a 4 drastic impact on our schools. If approved, 5 it will cost the Longwood School District 6 approximately $350,000 for the 2009-2010 7 school year. Since our budget is already 8 established and cannot be legally changed, the 9 $350,000 will have to be removed from services 10 provided to our children. Reimbursement is 11 not an acceptable solution." And the letter 12 goes on. 13 Received a letter from one of the 14 Democrat county legislators, and I'm just 15 going to read the last paragraph. This is 16 Legislator Stern: "Suffolk County taxpayers 17 already subsidize the MTA in the amount of 18 $250 million annually. I urge every member of 19 the Long Island state legislative delegation 20 to make it clear to the Governor, to the MTA 21 board that it is not the responsibility of 22 Suffolk residents to further subsidize the 23 MTA, and to vote against this proposed tax." 24 I would like to just go back to the
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(518) 371-8910 1 school piece again. The language in here -- 2 by the way, as I mentioned, as a staff 3 member -- and I've written legislative 4 intents. And I learned very early on in my 5 career, and as an attorney, that legislative 6 intent has no legal standing. You can write 7 great prose, and sometimes I like to do that 8 when I want to keep my writing skills honed. 9 But we had a discussion; I know 10 Senator Dilan had said it's the intent and the 11 legislative intent. It means nothing. It's 12 nice, gives a great impression, what we'd like 13 to do. But it means nothing legally. 14 And there's a piece here that talks 15 about it is the intent of the Governor, "the 16 intent of the Governor to submit and the 17 Legislature to enact for each fiscal year 18 after the 2009-2010 fiscal year in an annual 19 budget bill an appropriation in the amount to 20 be paid to the school districts." 21 Then, as we know, there's other 22 language here that says "in no case, however, 23 shall the suspension of payment obligation 24 exceed a period of six months, nor shall the
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(518) 371-8910 1 liability be reduced." School districts are 2 frightened, and with this language. 3 Now, how are the school districts 4 going to make these payments? One, if a large 5 school district gets a lot of state aid, they 6 can probably use some of that early state aid 7 in the fall to be able to pay. 8 Number two, there's a methodology 9 called revenue anticipation notes. With this 10 language, with this language the feeling is no 11 school district will be able to use rants, 12 which means to borrow in anticipation with a 13 lot of praying that they're going to get the 14 money back. 15 So school districts should have 16 been exempt, if that's what we wanted to do, 17 so we didn't hurt school districts or the 18 taxpayer. 19 Lastly, and critically important, I 20 believe -- unless I have not read this, I only 21 had a short period of time -- there's no 22 sunset provision in here. So this continues 23 to go on. When the economy picks up, there's 24 going to be a windfall to the MTA. There's
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(518) 371-8910 1 going to be a windfall to the MTA. In the 2 meantime we've hurt people, we've hurt 3 businesses, we've hurt -- and I know Senator 4 Fuschillo talked about this -- our higher 5 education institutions. 6 I have said on this floor many 7 times State University at Stony Brook is a 8 major player on Long Island. Their impact is 9 $4.7 billion. Well, what we did to them in 10 the budget and what we're doing to them here 11 is going to have a $44.7 million impact in the 12 2009-2010 fiscal year. That means less jobs 13 for people. It means the quality of education 14 is going to diminish at a time when we have 15 record enrollments. 16 So if we thought the budget bill 17 was bad, this is as bad if not worse. And I 18 just say that there are a lot of smart people 19 in this room as members. There are a lot of 20 smart staff people. We really have to begin 21 to look at these authorities and other 22 entities and really start as if we were in the 23 21st century, giving 21st-century resolutions 24 to the problems that we need.
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(518) 371-8910 1 So when it comes time for a vote, 2 Madam President, I will be among those voting 3 in the negative. Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Thank you, Senator. 6 Senator Lanza. 7 SENATOR LANZA: You've really got 8 to hand it to the MTA. You've really got to 9 take your hats off. They did it again. Here 10 we are with an emergency -- partially, I 11 believe, of their own doing. Scare tactics, 12 threats, telling people doomsday is coming 13 unless we get a bailout. 14 We're not going to sit before the 15 body, we don't want a microphone, we don't 16 want to answer questions. We're not going to 17 tell you where we spent the money. We're not 18 even going to tell you where we're going to 19 spend the money with specificity, the kind of 20 specificity that we all deserve to have before 21 we're forced to make tough choices on behalf 22 of the people. 23 None of that happened. And they're 24 going to get a check, a big fat one. It's a
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(518) 371-8910 1 blank check except for the signature. That's 2 not blank. It's going to be signed by the 3 people we represent. 4 And how did we get here? I want to 5 speak about the process, as my colleagues have 6 as well. We went through a tough budget here. 7 It got heated. And I think I heard from the 8 other side of the aisle that mistakes were 9 made and we're going to do better next time. 10 This is next time. And we didn't do better. 11 We've done worse. 12 There's been a lot of dishonesty 13 with respect to this process. I've heard from 14 members of the TWU, good, hardworking people. 15 They put ads in newspapers, they came to my 16 office, outside the office, and petitioned and 17 protested, as it is their right to do, because 18 they were sold a bill of goods by the MTA and 19 someone else. They were told: Senator Lanza 20 is not willing to help out. His colleagues on 21 the Republican side of the aisle, they don't 22 want to help. They're sitting on their hands. 23 That's a lie. I don't blame them. 24 I met a group of people from the TWU the other
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(518) 371-8910 1 day up here in Albany. A young lady, I could 2 tell she was the kind of person we want 3 working for us out there, she said, "You have 4 to vote for this, Senator Lanza. I'm scared." 5 I said, "Why are you scared?" She 6 said, "Because if you don't do this, I'm going 7 to lose my job. That's what they're telling 8 me." 9 Who can blame her? Who can blame 10 her? And when we talked about the merits or 11 lack thereof in this legislation and how we 12 could have done it better, you know what? In 13 all honesty, she didn't really want to hear 14 it. She was kind of numb to it. 15 And again, I don't blame her, 16 because she was afraid. And so from her point 17 of view, whatever package the MTA wanted, 18 please, just go ahead and do it. So it's not 19 her fault. 20 But I can tell you there is fault 21 here. Because it was dishonest to say that we 22 were unwilling to come to the table to sit 23 down and work together. 24 I'm going to repeat a lot of what's
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(518) 371-8910 1 been said about why this is such a bad piece 2 of legislation, but I think it's important to 3 understand why it is we got to this point, why 4 we didn't do better. 5 Here's the truth. I reached out to 6 the Majority, to the Majority Leader. I said 7 I'd be willing to vote, I will vote for an MTA 8 bailout if you will hear the concerns of the 9 people I represent on Staten Island. I know 10 there are no easy choices here, and there 11 would be no easy piece of legislation 12 regardless of who was at the table. 13 But I said, if you would listen to 14 the concerns of my constituents and if we can 15 change parts of this legislation to reflect 16 that, you'd have my vote. I wrote to the 17 Majority Leader. I asked the Majority Leader. 18 I'm still waiting for that meeting. 19 It's the Majority Leader's 20 prerogative, control the process. You can do 21 it your way. But I believe there's a right 22 way and a wrong way. And I think this was the 23 wrong way. 24 Maybe you're like me. You have the
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(518) 371-8910 1 occasion to go to a funeral, a service, to pay 2 homage to a good person that we shared the 3 earth with, and you listen to the eulogies and 4 hear good things being said. You hear 5 descriptions about things they've done in 6 their life which substantiate their decency or 7 how that life was well-lived. And you leave 8 the funeral, and it gives you that extra 9 incentive, and you think about it and you 10 reflect, and you say you know what, I want to 11 do those sorts of things, I want to live up to 12 those standards. 13 Well, I just went to one of those 14 funerals, the great Senator John Marchi. And 15 I listened to the eulogies. And I listened to 16 the great things that he did. And one of the 17 things that he was credited with being part of 18 was the bailout of New York City. A time when 19 they came together -- Republicans, 20 Democrats -- they put politics aside, they 21 didn't play games, and they said, We've got 22 work to do, there's always time for politics 23 later, but on this one it's too big, it's too 24 important to do it any other way but to work
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(518) 371-8910 1 together. 2 Well, those opportunities don't 3 come along very often. This was one of them. 4 This is that big. This was the one that we 5 should have put politics aside, that we should 6 have had both parties at the table, all 7 stakeholders, the taxpayers, the riders, and 8 we should have worked together, collaborated, 9 negotiated -- only on substance -- and then 10 come to this chamber and vote together, take a 11 tough vote together, but the right vote with 12 the right legislation. And that didn't 13 happen. 14 I wrote the Governor. I asked the 15 Governor to utilize his leadership to call 16 upon a bipartisan, task force-like approach 17 here. Didn't happen. I wrote a letter to the 18 MTA. In all fairness, I was not very 19 optimistic. They didn't let me down; I 20 haven't had a response. 21 They're getting a blank check, and 22 they don't have to do anything different from 23 what they've done before. We've talked. 24 Truth be told, people ought to know,
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(518) 371-8910 1 Democrats, Republicans, we leave this chamber, 2 we talk as colleagues and friends. I haven't 3 heard anyone, Democrat or Republican, say they 4 believe the MTA was doing a good job. And yet 5 here we are again with a blank check. 6 Some of the members across the 7 aisle I served with in the City Council. I 8 served on the Transportation Committee. I see 9 Senator Addabbo smiling, Senator Perkins not. 10 There were others -- he's smiling now. You 11 know, we asked these questions then. We 12 didn't get answers. It's a few years; we're 13 still asking the questions. We're not getting 14 the answers. 15 We don't only deserve to have these 16 answers, we need to have these answers. You 17 see what's going on in corporate America and 18 the economic downturn and the bailout. You 19 know, the MTA ought to report their financial 20 condition with the same specificity as any 21 publicly traded company in this country. Why 22 not? 23 You know, I'm not being critical of 24 you on the other side of the aisle when I say
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(518) 371-8910 1 you don't really know where this money is 2 going. It isn't your fault; I don't know 3 either. They won't tell us. 4 But we had a great opportunity here 5 in this bailout -- because I know there is a 6 real crisis somewhere in there. I don't know 7 what the size of that crisis is, because I 8 can't get straight answers. But we had a 9 great opportunity to say, once and for all, no 10 more bailouts, no more surprise emergencies, 11 no more instances where the MTA comes to us 12 and says you know what, we were taken by 13 surprise by the results of our own operations. 14 You know, typically good management 15 can tell you at any day during the year where 16 the money is being spent, where it's coming 17 from, what the predictions are for the future. 18 We had a real opportunity to do it better 19 here. 20 And so I've heard that we've put 21 accountability and transparency into this. 22 You can't just say you've done it, you've 23 actually got to do it. I see here in this 24 legislation it says as part of the new
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(518) 371-8910 1 accountability and transparency, the 2 authority, the MTA, they must submit to the 3 Governor, the Temporary President of the 4 Senate, the Speaker of the Assembly on or 5 before October 31st -- they've got six months 6 to do this -- a proposed authority mission 7 statement and proposed measurements. 8 So here's the new accountability. 9 They've got six months to tell us what they're 10 supposed to be doing for us, to figure it all 11 out. And furthermore, thereafter, the 12 authority, the MTA will reexamine its mission 13 statement on an annual basis and self-evaluate 14 how they're doing. 15 So that's accountability. They've 16 got six months to figure out what they're 17 supposed to do to us -- Freudian slip, do to 18 us -- for us, they're going to tell us what 19 that is, and then they're going to tell us 20 afterwards if they're doing a good job. 21 There's going to be an audit, a 22 forensic audit. It says "may," "shall." 23 There's going to be one I think in the 24 legislation of the year 2009, which means we
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(518) 371-8910 1 won't be able to get it done until 2010. So 2 we're going to hand them $2.5 billion, and 3 then in a year from now we're going to ask 4 them where they spent it. Shrewd, really 5 shrewd. 6 There's an expression, an old 7 computer expression, "garbage in, garbage 8 out." That's what we're getting here. So 9 what's coming out of this? Who's paying? 10 Who's going to sign that blank check? Payroll 11 taxes, you've heard about it. Parochial, 12 Catholic, yeshiva schools, they're going to 13 pay that payroll tax. What does that mean? 14 Tuition's going up, or they're going to fire 15 some teachers? Colleges, tuition's going up 16 or they're going to fire some professors? 17 I was temporarily delighted to hear 18 that public schools were going to be carved 19 out, there's going to be an exception. I saw 20 that as good news yesterday. Then I read the 21 legislation, as my colleagues have and they've 22 talked about. Public schools aren't being 23 carved out. I don't know who negotiated the 24 provisions to carve it out, but evidently the
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(518) 371-8910 1 MTA's lawyers were better than our lawyers 2 because there is no exception for public 3 schools. Because it requires, it requires a 4 vote that hasn't happened and won't happen 5 until next year for that reimbursement. 6 We don't know what the financial 7 condition of the state is going to be next 8 year. We don't know what kind of budget we're 9 going to be facing. We don't know who is 10 going to be in this chamber or who is not 11 going to be in this chamber. We don't know 12 who the Governor is going to be and who the 13 Governor isn't going to be. 14 That's the guarantee? There was a 15 lot of complicated language -- six months, 16 hiatus, later. Let me translate. Let me put 17 it in better legal terms for you. Public 18 schools, the check's in the mail. There is no 19 carve-out. There is no exception. That's not 20 honest. 21 Who else is going to sign that 22 check? Hospitals? We know how they fared in 23 the budget. I can tell you on Staten 24 Island -- again, I'll say it -- we've got a
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(518) 371-8910 1 hospital that's teetering, 500,000 people. 2 Two hospitals, we've got one on life support. 3 I don't know, is this the one that takes them 4 off life support and puts put them under? 5 Might be. 6 A good piece of legislation would 7 have spread the cost across the region. It 8 would have been based on fairness and equity. 9 You know what is so offensive, what is so 10 offensive about this legislation, is that the 11 people who received the least are being asked 12 to pay the most. That's not progressive. 13 That's regressive. 14 You live out on Staten Island, you 15 get less from the MTA than anyone in the 16 region. You're going to pay more. You drive 17 a car on Staten Island? Not because you want 18 to. There aren't enough buses. We don't have 19 a subway. In short, they've failed miserably 20 with respect to providing equitable 21 transportation infrastructure across the 22 region. So they put you in the car, and now 23 you're going to pay them for the privilege. 24 They said doomsday, we're going to
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(518) 371-8910 1 raise fares, we're going to raise tolls if you 2 don't give us a blank check. They're getting 3 the blank check, and they're going to raise 4 fares and they're going to raise tolls. 5 Let's think about this, folks. 6 Verrazano Narrows Bridge, they're going to 7 going from $10 -- and again, there's no 8 guarantee that it won't go higher. But I'm 9 told there's an agreement from the MTA, 10 another one -- this one's not even written 11 anywhere, but we're supposed to trust this one 12 as well -- they'll only raise it to $11, and 13 then in two years they'll raise it to $13. 14 And that fare hike we talked about, 15 we're only going to raise it one-third of what 16 we said we would raise it on doomsday, but 17 doomsday is still coming, it's just coming in 18 2013, so we're going to do it anyway. That's 19 who's paying. 20 Who else is paying on that payroll 21 tax? I spoke to folks from the Office of 22 Mental Retardation and Developmental 23 Disabilities. The impact of the payroll tax 24 statewide to them is $10 million. People with
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(518) 371-8910 1 developmental disabilities have got to fork 2 over $10 million to bail the MTA out. And 3 they don't have any answers with respect to 4 where the money is going. 5 On Staten Island alone, on Staten 6 Island alone, OMRDD facilities, over $100,000 7 in payroll tax. Why should they pay for the 8 mismanagement? Why should they pay even if 9 there was not mismanagement? Why is that 10 fair? How does that get into this 11 legislation? Why didn't it come out of the 12 legislation once it got in? 13 We talked about the car 14 representations and the license and the plate 15 fees on top of what happened in the budget. 16 This is wrong. This is wrong, and you know 17 it. This is wrong both in process, a 18 squandered opportunity. I'm still waiting to 19 see better. I'm still waiting. 20 And again, you know, it's been 21 said -- it's a fair question -- if you don't 22 have alternatives, you shouldn't be critical. 23 There are alternatives. There was a better 24 piece of legislation. There were people on
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(518) 371-8910 1 this side of the aisle that would be willing 2 to sit down with you and anyone, anywhere, 3 anytime, to make the touch choices. 4 Someone there decided that the only 5 way to do this, the only way to show 6 leadership was to make sure there was a 32-30 7 vote on an issue this important. The hell 8 with getting it right, let's just play 9 politics. 10 Well, that's wrong, and I'm going 11 to vote no. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Senator Nozzolio. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 15 Madam President. On the bill. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Nozzolio, on the bill. 18 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Madam 19 President, this bailout of the New York City 20 bus and subway system is another one-two punch 21 against the taxpayers of New York. First, the 22 budget. And if that wasn't bad enough, this 23 proposal presents additional blows to 24 taxpayers in upstate as well as downstate.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senators Marcellino and LaValle 2 were extremely critical, as they should be, 3 about the fact that there was absolutely no 4 scrutiny on the massive Metropolitan 5 Transportation Authority. They never 6 explained to us -- and I have served on the 7 Transportation Committee throughout my tenure 8 in the State Assembly and in this body, and 9 called for this year an explanation in the 10 Transportation Committee of where is the 11 money, where is the spending, where are the 12 steps that we need to scrutinize that got the 13 Metropolitan Transportation Authority to this 14 point. 15 There's no accountability by any of 16 the administrative positions. There's no 17 transparency in the budget. And what is 18 absolutely unconscionable is that there's been 19 no investigation by this State Senate, by the 20 Democrats who control this process in the 21 State Senate, over the Metropolitan 22 Transportation Authority. You had an 23 obligation to conduct a thorough 24 investigation, and that investigation was not
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(518) 371-8910 1 achieved. 2 Enormous job-killing taxes 3 downstate. But I need to reiterate, the way 4 you have fashioned this plan, our upstate 5 taxpayers and particularly the upstate 6 property taxpayers are also going to be paying 7 a burden. Next year, when school taxes and 8 school aid, as the first step, is 9 administered, there is going to be less school 10 aid to go around, and then upstate taxpayers 11 are going to be footing the bill. 12 The citizens I serve in upstate 13 New York have crushing property tax burdens. 14 In some of the counties of upstate we have the 15 highest property taxes per the valuation -- 16 Madam President, could I have some order, 17 please. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Go ahead, Senator Nozzolio. 20 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 21 Madam President. 22 In upstate we have some of the 23 largest property taxpayer bills based on the 24 value of the property of any counties in
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(518) 371-8910 1 America. And what this plan does is increase 2 the property tax burden of our upstate 3 taxpayers as well. 4 It was 22 years ago this spring 5 that the Thruway bridge collapsed. A number 6 of people died. A number of policymakers at 7 that time analyzed that we had over half of 8 the bridges in New York State that were 9 deficient. Those bridges in many cases are 10 still deficient. And as far as the federal 11 stimulus goes, we've only seen plans to paint 12 a number of bridges. 13 That paint may make the bridges 14 look better, it may defer some of the rust for 15 a few more years, but it doesn't get to solid 16 infrastructure. It is unconscionable that the 17 upstate taxpayers are left holding only a 18 simple and potentially an empty promise that 19 there will be a highway and bridge plan for 20 their construction. 21 That the Thruway bridge collapse 22 should be a reminder to all of you that we 23 cannot ignore our bridge and infrastructure 24 across our upstate highways. And let's not
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(518) 371-8910 1 let that happen. 2 Madam President, for these and 3 other reasons -- 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Again, can we have some order in the chamber. 6 Thank you. 7 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Thank you, 8 Madam President. 9 For these and other reasons, our 10 upstaters in particular, our upstate Senators 11 should not vote for this plan. 12 Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Thank you, Senator. 15 Senator Leibell. 16 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, 17 Madam President. 18 Senator Perkins, would you yield, 19 please, to a question? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 Senator Perkins, will you yield for a 22 question? 23 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes. Through 24 you, Madam President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator 2 Perkins, you chair the Committee on 3 Corporations and Authorities that I used to 4 chair. And I'm very curious as to the genesis 5 of the language on page 29 combining the 6 positions of chief executive and chairman. 7 Can you give me some background on that, how 8 that came about? 9 And I'll preface my question by 10 saying this, that -- and I believe it was 11 prior to your getting here, Senator -- we did 12 a major reform piece where we reformed the 13 authorities of the State of New York. And 14 this was one of the key components that we 15 negotiated. At the time intimately involved 16 with that was the then Attorney General, Eliot 17 Spitzer, and the then Comptroller, Alan 18 Hevesi. This was a major component of that 19 reform legislation. 20 Could you give me the genesis, 21 then, of why this piece is in this legislation 22 now? 23 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 24 Madam President. May I just ask that you just
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(518) 371-8910 1 repeat what you just asked me? Because I 2 missed a section of what you said. 3 SENATOR LEIBELL: Okay. The 4 section combines the positions of chairman and 5 chief executive officer of the authority. 6 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 7 Madam President. Thank you for the question. 8 The history to some extent of this 9 is that it was a part of the Ravitch plan. 10 One of the -- as I said before, part of how we 11 got here was to look at a variety of different 12 ideas that we thought were worthy that would 13 provide us with the type of governance 14 structure that can provide some 15 accountability. 16 And this was an idea that we 17 thought would provide that. 18 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator, I 19 don't know if you're aware or not that the 20 MTA, at the time of that reform legislation -- 21 which I believe was passed unanimously in this 22 house -- they were back-channeling it and were 23 very much opposed to the reforms that this 24 body agreed to which are now being undone by
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(518) 371-8910 1 this piece of legislation. 2 Were you aware of that, Senator? 3 SENATOR PERKINS: Well, through 4 you, Madam President, I'm not quite sure 5 whether my awareness of it or not is relevant, 6 because this is the idea that we think is 7 appropriate for this particular piece of 8 legislation. 9 So the point that you're making I 10 guess is that you don't agree with this. And 11 I can respect that. But I don't see that as 12 the reform that's most significant in this 13 piece of legislation. 14 SENATOR LEIBELL: Senator -- 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Leibell, are you asking Senator 17 Perkins to continue to yield? 18 SENATOR LEIBELL: Through the 19 chair. Through the chair. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 Senator Perkins, do you continue to yield? 22 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes. Please. 23 SENATOR LEIBELL: Are you aware 24 that when we drafted that legislation, which I
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(518) 371-8910 1 was intimately involved with, that the concept 2 of being transparent and of being accountable 3 were key instruments in that legislation? 4 SENATOR PERKINS: Is that -- 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: Yeah, that's a 6 question, Senator. 7 SENATOR PERKINS: Through you, 8 Madam President. I appreciate the history 9 that you're trying to suggest in efforts to 10 make the MTA more transparent and accountable. 11 But I would just like to remind you 12 that -- and all of us -- that these issues and 13 concerns, as you are sort of underscoring, are 14 not new to this new majority. That the 15 challenges that we are grappling with and 16 trying to fix tonight, today, are challenges 17 that we inherited. 18 And so while we might disagree on 19 this specific approach, you must remember that 20 we did not create this mess. What we are 21 working towards, with you, is fixing it. And 22 I think that we are on the right track, and 23 therefore I would urge that we keep that in 24 mind, that this is something that we
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(518) 371-8910 1 inherited, that we embraced as a challenge 2 because of the urgency, not just for the 3 people of the City of New York but for the 4 state, as this represents a significant 5 economic engine for all of us. 6 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, 7 Senator Perkins. 8 On the bill. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Leibell, on the bill. 11 SENATOR LEIBELL: Madam 12 President, I'm going to suggest to you and to 13 this body that this is a major step back in 14 the reforms that we instituted within this 15 body only a few short years ago. 16 Those reforms were negotiated with 17 the then Attorney General and the then 18 Comptroller, and they were absolutely adamant 19 about having this language in there that would 20 separate thee two corporate positions. And it 21 was considered to be absolutely critical in 22 order to make sure that our authorities acted 23 in a legal and correct way. 24 Now, we should not confuse the two
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(518) 371-8910 1 issues here, one of which is the corporate 2 structure and the other is the fiscal, the 3 dollars issue. But we are taking a major step 4 back on the reforms that we all agreed to, I 5 believe unanimously, not that many years ago 6 within this body. 7 This was recommended also by Ira 8 Millstein, who was the commissioner at that 9 time, and who is the leading authority on 10 corporate governance. 11 Now, I'm going to also say that 12 after this terrible budget that we went 13 through not too many weeks ago, I was 14 describing that in my district as a disaster. 15 Well, this takes it a step further. This is 16 really shameful. We have to take a look 17 here -- and many of my colleagues have -- upon 18 all the entities and all the organizations 19 that will be severely damaged by what's 20 occurring here this evening. 21 I was home in my district this 22 morning. I went to a breakfast, hundreds of 23 business people, small business people. Not 24 General Motors, General Electric, Verizon --
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(518) 371-8910 1 small business people. And also 2 not-for-profits. I have never seen such anger 3 and outrage over an issue as I have over this 4 one. 5 I had the head of my local hospital 6 catch me on the way out: "Senator, Putnam 7 Hospital, this is devastating." PARC, which 8 takes care of our handicapped citizens. Susan 9 Limongello came up to me: "Senator, this is 10 devastating for us." 11 Many of these not-for-profits who 12 take care of those who have been less 13 fortunate in life than most of us have been, 14 they are in businesses and industries that are 15 particularly labor-intensive. Not well-paid 16 people, but labor-intensive. This has a huge 17 impact on those organizations. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Senator Perkins, why do you rise? 20 SENATOR PERKINS: Madam 21 President, I'd like to be recognized and to 22 respond to my colleague. 23 SENATOR LEIBELL: Certainly. 24 SENATOR PERKINS: You know,
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(518) 371-8910 1 you -- again, I want to -- 2 SENATOR LEIBELL: This is in 3 response to my question, is that correct? 4 SENATOR PERKINS: Yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Yes, this is. 7 SENATOR LEIBELL: Okay. 8 SENATOR PERKINS: Thank you. 9 Thank you. You know, I want to earnestly 10 respect the efforts that you made with respect 11 to reform and to appreciate the difficulty 12 that you may be having because of the fact 13 that obviously some reforms work as we 14 envision, and some don't. 15 And in this instance it's clear, 16 based on the evidence that you and your 17 colleagues have shared, that it wasn't 18 working. That in fact, despite those changes, 19 laudable as they may have been, you have said 20 time and time again that there was still a 21 system running amuck, unaccountable and 22 untransparent. 23 So that may have been an idea that 24 at the time seemed to be appropriate, but over
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(518) 371-8910 1 time did not seem to be a solution. 2 So this idea I think provides us 3 with an opportunity to provide that solution, 4 and it is now up to the chairman whether or 5 not to have an executive director. So I'm not 6 here to dismiss your efforts or in any way 7 denigrate them. But clearly, based on what 8 you and others have said just this evening, 9 that piece did not work, because it did not 10 control the misbehavior of the MTA that we're 11 trying now to try to get under control. 12 Thank you. 13 SENATOR LEIBELL: Thank you, 14 Senator. 15 I'm also going to suggest that the 16 splitting up of these positions is not the 17 reason we are confronting this most difficult 18 issue here tonight. In fact, I'm going to 19 suggest that it's going to exacerbate this in 20 the future. 21 What I was saying a moment ago is 22 how not only devastating this is but how cruel 23 it is. Madam Chair, Madam President, I want 24 you to, as a colleague from Westchester
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(518) 371-8910 1 County -- there are five of us who have the 2 good fortune and the honor to represent 3 Westchester County. I received yesterday from 4 our county executive his news release calling 5 for the Legislature to stop the payroll tax. 6 County Executive Andy Spano has 7 called for the State Legislature and the 8 Governor to stop a payroll tax that he said 9 would cost Westchester residents millions of 10 dollars and hurt taxpayers, businesses, 11 hospitals and nonprofits who are already 12 struggling to survive. 13 Later in that press release, he 14 asked the question how come Connecticut gets 15 away with not having to contribute when 16 thousands of their riders use MTA public 17 transportation. Why is there no toll on the 18 East River bridges? Why must we constantly 19 bail out agencies that are inefficiently run? 20 I might add that today, verbally, I 21 received a communication from the Yonkers 22 mayor, Mayor Amicone, who said this is 23 devastating for his city as well as for his 24 city school district.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Previous to that, the county 2 executive had written to us also saying how 3 devastating this is and why is it that any 4 agreement does not address assistance to the 5 B Line, our bus system in Westchester, equal 6 to and in proportion to the MTA bus system. 7 County Executive Spano continued: "It is 8 incredible to me that the inefficiency of the 9 MTA is rewarded while our efficiency is 10 penalized." 11 That's the county executive of 12 Westchester County, which I have the good 13 fortune to represent, telling me that I should 14 vote against this garbage. Not dignified 15 language, but that's what this is, legislative 16 garbage. 17 In particular, the county executive 18 is concerned about Westchester Medical Center, 19 which we know how fragile that is. And this 20 is going to cost them a lot of money, a lot of 21 money. And for all we know, the tertiary 22 hospital that we have fought hard to save, 23 maybe it will go over the edge now and be out 24 of business. That's how bad this legislation
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(518) 371-8910 1 has the potential to be. 2 Libraries, hospitals, educational 3 groups. The entire Westchester delegation was 4 invited to meet with our parochial schools 5 only a couple of months ago in Westchester 6 County to talk to them about the importance of 7 the role they play. And I believe every 8 legislator there committed that we're going to 9 do everything we can to help you, because you 10 have a significant role, regardless of what 11 faith you may represent, in our educational 12 process in Westchester County. 13 Is this the commitment that was 14 made to them? This will close some of those 15 parochial schools. 16 New York Medical College, our 17 medical school in Westchester County, will be 18 severely impacted. Careers for People with 19 Disabilities. Westchester Arts Council. 20 Grace Community Church, well known in White 21 Plains for how they serve those who are 22 needing of help. The New York School for the 23 Deaf. Will they be made whole? They serve my 24 constituents.
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(518) 371-8910 1 I cannot for the life of me 2 understand how, in looking for a legislative 3 remedy, we punish these various entities, 4 those that can least afford it. People are 5 leaving this state. The coming census is 6 going to reveal to us all what we know. We'll 7 lose, in political terms, a couple of 8 congressional districts, which will weaken our 9 clout in Washington, D.C. 10 But more significantly, it's a 11 reflection of what people are saying. Our 12 motto used to be and still is "Excelsior," 13 ever upward. What goes ever upward in 14 New York State are our taxes. That's what 15 goes ever upward. 16 We should be looking for ways to 17 create jobs. Jobs, jobs, jobs. These jobs 18 that I'm talking about, because of these 19 taxes, will be lost forever. There's no money 20 in here for roads, there's none for our 21 bridges. There are just taxes. 22 Madam President, what we have here 23 with the MTA is a failed business model. It 24 has failed miserably. And there's nothing
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(518) 371-8910 1 that's occurring here this evening in this 2 house or across the way that's going to save a 3 failed business model like the MTA. 4 And the one thing I can tell you is 5 that whatever numbers we're relying on here 6 this evening, within two weeks three weeks, 7 they'll be changed. Oh, we didn't know this. 8 We have new information. 9 What this authority needs is not 10 this legislation. What this authority needs 11 is an in-depth audit, a forensic audit, that 12 will take them apart from top to bottom and 13 show all of us, all the people of New York 14 State -- not just in the metro region, but up 15 in Buffalo -- will show everyone what is wrong 16 with this institution. 17 Madam President, when the time 18 comes to vote, I will vote against this 19 legislation. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 Senator Winner. 22 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you, Madam 23 President. 24 I just want to again reiterate the
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(518) 371-8910 1 difficulties that many of us have in the 2 upstate regions with the fact that this bill 3 and this plan does havoc with our upstate 4 roads and bridge program by decoupling it. 5 And as many of us have said all along, that we 6 would be able to support and have supported in 7 the past an MTA plan that coupled roads and 8 bridges -- and yet, for reasons unbeknownst to 9 me but only have just recently become very, 10 very aware as to why it was uncoupled. 11 You know, right now we have a road 12 and bridge program upstate which was cut by 13 $400 million in this year's budget from the 14 capital plan. In 2010 and 2011, the Dedicated 15 Highway, Bridge and Trust Fund is estimated to 16 be running about a $1.5 billion deficit. And 17 that notwithstanding that, we made that cut in 18 this year's budget. And we are now diverting 19 even more dollars away from our ability to try 20 to cover that proposed deficit. 21 And one of the reasons why it 22 becomes very clear as to why you uncoupled the 23 road and bridge program from the MTA is very 24 simple. You don't want us to be able to use
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(518) 371-8910 1 the dollars that you're now taking to fund the 2 MTA to fund our road and bridge program like 3 we've done in the past. Twenty-eight percent 4 of the road and bridge program comes from 5 motor vehicle fees. And yet in the budget we 6 just adopted, you raise those by 25 percent, 7 and in this plan you're raising them by 8 another 25 percent. 9 So effectively, if you had let us 10 use those funds for our road and bridge 11 program, you couldn't have taken them down and 12 utilized them for the MTA. And now we're 13 probably not going to be able to do it for the 14 road and bridge program, because how much you 15 can raise these? How much more can you 16 continue to raise these fees? 17 Enough is enough. We've raised 18 every fee that is in existence in this state, 19 and raise them again and raise them again. 20 And now we are now really out of options that 21 are going to be at all palatable to meet our 22 needs to fund our road and bridge program. 23 And that is an untenable circumstance for us. 24 Right now we're sending
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(518) 371-8910 1 $400 million in gasoline taxes and drivers' 2 fees to the MTA from upstate residents. We're 3 now going to send, under this bill, another 4 $175 million in drivers' fees to the MTA. 5 Those are funds that would ordinarily go to 6 the upstate road and bridge program that are 7 now being diverted to the MTA, and that's why 8 you're taking those options away from us. 9 And, you know, the other completely 10 disingenuous statement that was made out here 11 tonight was that, you know, we shouldn't care 12 whether or not we're diverting upstate dollars 13 now to make up for the reimbursement for 14 another $60 million -- but probably $97 15 million, as was pointed out in a more accurate 16 number -- that we're now going to have to 17 spend out of General Funds from the State of 18 New York to reimburse school districts in the 19 MTA region. 20 You know, it was said, well, that's 21 an investment in the State of New York, and 22 therefore we'll get paid back. Well, it is a 23 diversion of upstate dollars, you know, from 24 Big Flats and from Canton, New York, and from
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(518) 371-8910 1 Watertown and other areas upstate to now to 2 the MTA region for schools. 3 For the first time in my memory, 4 now we're going to be sending money down to 5 Long Island schools and Westchester schools 6 and New York City school districts from 7 upstate regions. And I just think that that's 8 entirely a misrepresentation to say that 9 there's no upstate impact to this plan. 10 You know, I just want to associate 11 myself with the remarks from the editorial 12 from the Watertown Daily Times. And when 13 talking about the fact that the school 14 districts are going to be reimbursed -- why 15 they weren't exempt in the first place is 16 beyond me. That would have been the easy way 17 to do it. 18 But now we're being told that the 19 legislative intent and the promise of 20 everybody is to reimburse them, so everybody 21 is now feeling good about the fact that they 22 think the schools are going to get the money. 23 That promise and intent came from 24 the same Governor who promised not to raise
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(518) 371-8910 1 our income taxes earlier this year, and we 2 know where that promise went. 3 So the Watertown Daily Times says 4 that those school districts would receive 5 special treatment under the plan. "It would 6 be unfair to businesses, villages, towns, 7 cities and other public entities that would 8 have to shoulder the payroll tax as an added 9 expense of doing business without state 10 relief. Museums, libraries, and other 11 nonprofits, many of them operating on 12 shoestring budgets now, would bear the burden 13 as well. They too may come to demand similar 14 relief, and around the state other school 15 districts may push for more state aid in 16 fairness to them. The Governor's proposal 17 would shift the funding source to the rest of 18 the state. Rural and upstate New Yorkers who 19 do not have mass transit available to them are 20 already paying their transportation taxes in 21 the price of gas. Governor Paterson's plan 22 and the Senate Democrat majority's plan 23 inappropriately transfers the local obligation 24 of MTA users to taxpayers all over the state."
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(518) 371-8910 1 The Watertown Daily Times got it 2 right. They understand what's happening here, 3 in that once again our upstate regions are 4 being treated unfairly, and this bill only 5 makes it worse. And on top of the budget, 6 where we're driving businesses away from the 7 state in droves with the extra fees and taxes, 8 this bill will only make it worse for not only 9 the people in the MTA region but in every 10 corner, nook and cranny in this state. 11 I'm going to oppose this 12 legislation. Thank you, Madam President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Thank you, Senator. 15 Senator Sampson. 16 SENATOR SAMPSON: Thank you very 17 much, Madam President. On the bill. I won't 18 ask Senator Dilan or Senator Perkins any 19 questions. But on the bill. 20 You know, I've been listening to 21 the debate. And I don't like to speak a lot, 22 I just like to hear and listen, unless it's 23 necessary. But, you know, I heard Senator 24 Golden talk about the MTA being a runaway
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(518) 371-8910 1 train. I heard Senator Marcellino talk about, 2 as of 2007, the Comptroller talked about these 3 issues, about the problem that we had. And 4 then Senator LaValle talked about the MTA 5 needs to be gutted. 6 I just want to let my colleagues 7 know, what we do here, we take it seriously, 8 Senator Larkin. We can agree to disagree. 9 Maybe the manner in which we do things, you 10 may not like. But when you were in the 11 majority, you did things that we did not like. 12 But we know what you did, you took 13 it seriously, because you thought your method 14 was the best way to do it. And I respect 15 that. And it's the same way. We figure our 16 method is the best way. 17 But you know, we can't have 18 selective amnesia here. You made the point 19 and you made our argument. This has been a 20 runaway train for years. You have been in 21 control for years. The reforms that took 22 place, they were not working. Now we're 23 trying to fix it. 24 We talk about businesses leaving
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(518) 371-8910 1 New York State, we talk about jobs leaving 2 New York State. I wonder how many jobs and 3 how many businesses closed within the last 4 99 days in comparison to when the prior 5 majority was in control and how many jobs, how 6 many businesses have closed. 7 You know, we have to understand -- 8 when the Dalai Lama was here, he talked about 9 honesty, truthfulness, and openness. We have 10 to be frank to ourselves and we have to 11 understand that in order for us to resolve 12 these problems, we have to put partisan 13 politics aside and deal with the issues that 14 confront us. 15 So when we talk about we're not 16 concerned about upstate, we are definitely 17 concerned about upstate, because we represent 18 all of New York State. You know, we didn't 19 have a position on the Capital Program Review 20 Board that dealt with a lot of these capital 21 issues that we have to deal with now. 22 But you know what? You know, we 23 have to face those issues. And we will take 24 the hits like everybody else. And I'm quite
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(518) 371-8910 1 sure when you all were in the majority, you 2 took hits for decisions that people thought 3 were inappropriate but you felt it was the 4 best thing to do. 5 But we have to understand going 6 forward, collectively, we are all colleagues. 7 And what we do here, we all take seriously. 8 This is no joke. Because the impact that we 9 have affects not only people in my district, 10 but it affects people throughout the State of 11 New York. 12 So I'm not here to -- and my mother 13 always said, you know, don't throw stones if 14 you live in a glass house. So we have to 15 understand if we're going to resolve this 16 issue, you may not like the way in which it 17 came about, but we have to deal with it. And 18 I can respect your positions. But as I said 19 before, you have made our argument. It has 20 not worked. It has been barreling down the 21 road, this runaway train, but we have to look 22 at who has been the conductor of this runaway 23 train while it was running down the train 24 tracks.
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(518) 371-8910 1 So on that note, Madam President, I 2 will be voting yes for this bailout of the 3 MTA. Thank you. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Schneiderman. 6 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Thank you, 7 Madam President. I'll be very brief on the 8 bill. 9 I have to join Senator Sampson in 10 expressing a little bit of puzzlement as to 11 the tone of the debate and the focus of the 12 debate here. This is far from a perfect bill. 13 You know, if I were in charge of everything 14 and got to write all the bills myself, I 15 certainly would have done it differently. 16 Some of the points that have been 17 addressed by my colleagues on the other side 18 of the aisle, though, have been explicitly 19 addressed in this bill, and really through the 20 intervention of Majority Leader Smith. 21 Particularly, some of you have 22 talked about the need for audits. Well, the 23 idea of a forensic audit was brought up by the 24 Majority Leader originally, and there is
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(518) 371-8910 1 expanded auditing and independent auditing 2 provided for in this bill. 3 More importantly -- and this is 4 this has not been noted by anyone -- this bill 5 puts into statute the common-law fiduciary 6 duty of MTA board members for the first time. 7 Now, before I came to the Senate I 8 spent quite a few years in litigation against 9 the MTA. I represented the Straphangers 10 Campaign. I understand how they operate, I 11 understand how they have concealed things over 12 the years. Things are much better than they 13 were. But there still is a need for more 14 transparency, for more accountability. 15 And I can tell you that the 16 provisions of this bill take major steps in 17 that direction. There is none as important, 18 though, as the change in fiduciary duty. 19 Putting into the statute the common-law 20 fiduciary duty that ensures that board members 21 can be removed for a breach of their duty -- 22 of their duties of care, their other fiduciary 23 duties -- is tremendously important. 24 You know, I think that while we
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(518) 371-8910 1 have tried to make this bill better, there's 2 only so much you can do with a bad situation. 3 As Senator Sampson said, you know, we try to 4 be charitable in listening to each other and 5 everyone does have a point to make and 6 everyone is trying to the best they can to 7 represent their constituents. 8 But, you know, we've been called 9 the authors of this bill, and people say: Oh, 10 you Democrats, you Democrats are the authors 11 of this. We may be the authors of it, but the 12 title of this book is "Cleaning Up Your Mess," 13 ladies and gentlemen. I mean, come on. We 14 got here a couple of months ago. 15 I was here 10 years ago as a young 16 Senator -- or I was a new Senator, even if I 17 wasn't young. But I had just come from 18 working on MTA matters when the MTA capital 19 plan was brought to us by Governor Pataki's 20 then MTA board, by all the board members who I 21 heard feted and cooed about when they came 22 before the Senate by the majority. 23 And that capital plan, I remember 24 standing and holding it up and saying, "This
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(518) 371-8910 1 is a fare increase." Because it was under the 2 Republican regime that the state stopped 3 providing any money for capital to the MTA, 4 forcing it to issue bonds to cover operating 5 expenses. 6 Eight years ago there was a huge 7 front-page story in the New York Times about 8 what they called the worst public policy 9 regarding a mass transit system in the history 10 of the United States. This is something that 11 did not happen on our watch. 12 You want to talk about how we got 13 here? We didn't get here with our group in 14 the majority, I am assure you. We didn't get 15 here with us having a vote on the Capital 16 Authorities Review Board. We didn't get here 17 with us having the ability to choose nominees 18 to the MTA. 19 So now this transit system, the 20 greatest transit system in the history of this 21 country, is down the drain, broke, broke, 22 broke -- in debt, paying off the bonds we had 23 to float because your governor, with your 24 acquiescence, cut the capital funding.
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(518) 371-8910 1 So what have we got to do here? 2 We've got to bail them out. We just got here, 3 been here a couple of months here. We've got 4 to bail them out. We've got to clean up the 5 mess. And that is what we're trying to do 6 here today. 7 Is this fun, to raise taxes and 8 raise fares? Is this fun? No. But any one 9 of you -- and I would particularly note, my 10 colleagues who represent any of the 11 straphangers in the City of New York, if you 12 do not pass this bill today, if you're going 13 to vote no and pound your chest and say, "Oh, 14 this is terrible, what you Democrats are 15 doing," understand that if we don't do this, 16 if we don't provide funding -- which has to 17 come, ladies and gentlemen, from either taxing 18 or borrowing. Right? Unless you think you're 19 going to strike oil in the Adirondacks or 20 something, this is what we're down to in the 21 State of New York. 22 If you do not vote for this bill, 23 understand that 30-day metro passes go over 24 $100. Understand that the MTA will eliminate
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(518) 371-8910 1 the service on seven bus lines, weekend 2 service and overnight bus service on many more 3 bus lines. It will eliminate completely three 4 subway lines and partially eliminate others. 5 That is what we are voting to stop here. That 6 is the mess we are voting to clean up. 7 Did we create this mess? No. Are 8 we willing to take responsibility for this? 9 Yes. And I would urge all of you to take a 10 breath in the blame game and consider how long 11 we've been here, how long you were in charge, 12 and how we got into this situation. 13 This is not a good bill, but it is 14 an absolutely necessary bill. I'll be voting 15 yes. And I look forward to us having these 16 ongoing discussions about how we got into the 17 state that, after raising spending and cutting 18 taxes for years when you were in power, we now 19 have the situation where those who are 20 attempting to clean up the mess are getting 21 chastised by those who created it. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, please, a 23 little bit of perspective on this. I'm voting 24 yes, not because this is a great bill, but
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(518) 371-8910 1 because we have to step up to the challenge 2 and the responsibility. 3 Thank you, Madam President. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Thank you, Senator. 6 Senator Ranzenhofer. 7 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: Thank you, 8 Madam President. I'd just like to make a 9 couple of remarks on the MTA bailout. 10 And I just find amazing when 11 somebody says, "Let's cool it on the blame 12 game, but it's your fault." I don't 13 understand that. Again, I've been here for 14 four months. And I think that's why people 15 across this state find that this is just so 16 dysfunctional, when you hear a comment "let's 17 not be political, let's not blame each other, 18 but it's your fault." It's like children who 19 can't get along playing in the play box. 20 I don't want to comment on how this 21 hurts jobs and how this hurts schools, because 22 that's been talked about a lot. But I do want 23 to talk about how this is really one part of 24 the state, New York City, hurting upstate
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(518) 371-8910 1 New York. 2 We've heard a couple of comments 3 where what we are going to have is we are 4 going to have taxpayers from Buffalo, 5 Rochester, Syracuse and Albany paying taxes, 6 their income taxes, which will go to the 7 General Fund which will then be used to pay 8 back school districts in the lower part of the 9 state. 10 What you really have here is you 11 really have New York City imposing its will on 12 the rest of the state. Nobody else gets any 13 benefit whatsoever out of that, but you have 14 someone like me and my colleagues from upstate 15 New York paying their income taxes to bail out 16 the MTA. 17 But the point I want to make, Madam 18 President, which has not been talked about 19 earlier, is we have a transit system in 20 upstate New York called the NFTA, the Niagara 21 Falls Transportation Authority. And in the 22 budget two years ago, $1 million was taken 23 away from the transit authority. In the 24 budget that was passed just last month,
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(518) 371-8910 1 another million dollars was taken away from 2 the transit authority. 3 Now, I've heard on this floor by 4 some of my colleagues that the Buffalo area is 5 one of the poorest cities in the entire 6 country. Yet the fare in Buffalo is $1.75. 7 The fare in New York City is $2. Yet the 8 average income for somebody living in New York 9 City is more than twice what it is for someone 10 living in Buffalo. 11 Yet here you have assistance for 12 the richest part of the state, New York City, 13 so that you can keep a low fare for people who 14 can easily afford it at $2 or a little more, 15 yet you have people in the poorest city in the 16 United States, in Buffalo, New York, who pay 17 just a little less for their fare, not only 18 having that same fare but having in turn, 19 then, to bail out money through their income 20 taxes to pay for this. 21 That's really an outrage. It's 22 really a double hit in not getting any sort of 23 assistance for the poorest city in the United 24 States and then having them turn around and
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(518) 371-8910 1 bail out the richest city in the United 2 States. That's not fair, and I will be voting 3 no when this comes for a vote. 4 Thank you. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Thank you, Senator. 7 Senator DeFrancisco. 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I just 9 wanted to make a brief comment about the 10 statements of Senator Sampson and Senator 11 Schneiderman. 12 You know, there is a problem right 13 now, and what's really amazing to me is -- 14 well, it's not amazing. It's pretty easy for 15 New York City Senators to say that this is a 16 fair way to resolve the problem when they're 17 the beneficiaries of the solution that they've 18 come up with. 19 And Senator Winner had mentioned 20 that, you know, how does this happen? And he 21 learned how it happened. But procedurally how 22 it happened, the three people who made it 23 happen are all from New York City. 24 And I could never understand why
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(518) 371-8910 1 $100 for a monthly subway pass is so onerous 2 when we're lucky upstate if we can get two 3 tanks of gas to travel the many miles that 4 people have to travel to their jobs. I don't 5 quite get it. 6 I don't understand why bridge tolls 7 aren't increased when we're asking the upstate 8 community to take less school aid next year 9 because a greater share is going to help bail 10 out the city by the two speakers who are so 11 impressed with this situation, so impressed 12 with their solution to this situation. 13 I would like to see, quite frankly, 14 some of the upstate Senators on the Democratic 15 side -- like Valesky and Aubertine and Senator 16 Stachowski and Senator Breslin and Senator 17 Thompson -- I'd like to see them justify how 18 this helps their districts. Or maybe somebody 19 from the outer regions of the Metropolitan 20 Transportation Authority that are being 21 charged the same thing as other regions, other 22 parts of the region that use the system so 23 much more. 24 So I guess my point is I guess
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(518) 371-8910 1 fairness is in the eye of the beholder. And 2 when we don't have a bridge and road plan and 3 we are paying more for our transportation 4 upstate and we are helping, through our school 5 districts taking less money next year to bail 6 out the school districts that they want to get 7 give a break to, I can see how that's fairer 8 to some. It's certainly not fair to most. 9 But unfortunately, the three people 10 who made this decision, despite what everyone 11 on the other side of the aisle said about 12 their involvement, everybody knows that 13 Malcolm Smith, Shelly Silver and the Governor 14 met behind closed doors -- I don't know, maybe 15 it was in Albany, maybe it was back in their 16 hometown of New York City -- and came up with 17 this solution which is unfair to the rest of 18 the state. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator Skelos, to close for the Minority. 21 SENATOR SKELOS: Thank you, Madam 22 President. 23 I think a lot has been said this 24 evening, and finally we had an opportunity to
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(518) 371-8910 1 see a bill with unfortunately not a lot of 2 time to review it, but it didn't take that 3 much to realize how bad it is. 4 You know, I'd like to just read 5 some comments from some individuals and groups 6 that are opposed to the bill that the 7 Democrats are going to pass tonight. 8 From the Nassau-Suffolk School 9 Board Association, which was addressed to 10 Senator Foley, Johnson, Oppenheimer, and 11 Stewart-Cousins, about the press conference 12 last night, that "It was appropriately timed 13 in the dark of night, an announcement that the 14 scheme would be put to a vote in the Assembly 15 and Senate in less than 24 hours, utilizing a 16 message of necessity -- back room dealing at 17 its worst. Long Island schools are being 18 ordered to take on a permanent obligation to 19 fund the MTA in exchange for a promissory 20 note, a promissory note that is not worth the 21 paper to print it on." 22 And I should point out that there's 23 going to be a bipartisan "no" vote on this 24 from the Island and Staten Island, because I'm
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(518) 371-8910 1 told that every Democrat Assemblyperson from 2 Long Island and Staten Island and every 3 Republican Assemblyperson from Long Island 4 voted no, because they had the courage of 5 their convictions to understand how bad and 6 dangerous this bill is. 7 You know, other people that have 8 opposed it -- Rabbi Shmuel Lefkowitz sent me a 9 letter here, an email: "The large Orthodox 10 Jewish community schools and synagogues, 11 likewise already in a hard place, will find 12 the new tax a large and heavy rock closing in 13 on them." 14 The New York Catholic Conference: 15 "The New York State Catholic Conference 16 opposes the application of a payroll tax on 17 not-for-profit health, social service, and 18 educational providers." 19 The Village Officials Association 20 of Long Island, of Nassau County -- and I know 21 that Senator Johnson represents many 22 incorporated villages, as I do -- "The payroll 23 tax is just going to be passed on as a real 24 property tax bill."
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(518) 371-8910 1 It's ironic that today we met and 2 talked about real property tax relief with the 3 Governor, and the Democrats are raising 4 property taxes within the metropolitan region. 5 Nassau Community College, it's 6 going to cost them $400,000. It's going to 7 cost the students $400,000, because the 8 tuition is going to go up. It's going to cost 9 our SUNY students more tuition. Well, you'll 10 sweep 80 or 90 percent of it first, but it's 11 going to cost them more tuition. 12 National Federation of Independent 13 Businesses: It's going to kill businesses. 14 The only state in the nation that has higher 15 taxes on businesses is Hawaii. Well, we're 16 going probably top them today. 17 I read so many. The Farm Bureau, 18 the Business Council, Mayor Phil Amicone of 19 Yonkers. I believe you represent the City of 20 Yonkers, Senator Stewart-Cousins. He's 21 opposed to it. 22 Nassau/Suffolk Hospital Council. 23 Chamber of Commerce. Hospital Association. 24 Nassau/Suffolk School Board Association.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Greater Southern Dutchess Chamber. I mean, I 2 don't know how they can all be wrong. 3 Then we're going to tax non-public 4 schools. Our Lady of Victory in Floral Park. 5 St. Catherine of Siena in Franklin Square. 6 Notre Dame School in New Hyde Park. North 7 Shore Hebrew Academy in Great Neck. Chabad of 8 Port Washington, it's in Port Washington. The 9 Henry Viscardi School in Albertson, which 10 provides educational opportunities to severely 11 disabled students. You should visit that 12 school. 13 And I don't think it's funny, the 14 taxes that you're looking to impose. No, I 15 was just trying to speak. Maybe you'd listen. 16 Because I'll extend the courtesy to you and 17 listen to you when you close. 18 Different not-for-profits. Gateway 19 Youth Outreach in Elmont. Family and Children 20 Association, Mineola-based. American Red 21 Cross. Salvation Army. You're taxing them. 22 You're taxing them. 23 So this legislation that you're 24 passing, it's really not a solution, it's a
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(518) 371-8910 1 recipe for absolute fiscal disaster. 2 $2.2 billion in new taxes after the 3 $8.5 billion that you imposed in the budget. 4 That's over $10 billion in new taxes. And the 5 centerpiece of this Democrat plan is a billion 6 and a half tax on jobs, tax on jobs that will 7 devastate those who are affected. Businesses 8 throughout the state are choking from high 9 taxes. They can't compete, and many will be 10 put out of business as a result. 11 The higher fares. We're saving the 12 fares, supposedly. Twenty-seven percent 13 increase in the last several years. How are 14 you saving the fares, 27 percent? 15 The Governor said he'll reimburse 16 school districts for this new mandate and give 17 them money in next year's budget. That's a 18 sham. Our school districts don't believe it. 19 The Governor made a commitment on the STAR 20 program. He reneged on that. You all voted 21 to take away the STAR rebate checks from our 22 constituents. 23 Highways and bridges. We always 24 set parity to make sure that upstate
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(518) 371-8910 1 communities were treated fairly when we were 2 in the majority. And now you're expecting us 3 to trust you, to trust you that this will 4 happen appropriately for our upstate 5 residents. 6 Our local governments, struggling, 7 struggling to make ends meet. I received a 8 call today from the mayor of East Rockaway, 9 from my village. He said it was $10,000, 10 $12,000. He said, "We've put our budget 11 together. We're a small village. Quite 12 honestly, we can't afford it." But you want 13 to tax them so they can raise property taxes. 14 So, Madam President, I just -- I'm 15 upset, I guess, a bit by the fact that these 16 this was a secretive process. 17 Quite honestly, I thank you, 18 Senator Dilan for debating and answering our 19 questions. I thank you, Senator Perkins, for 20 the courtesy that you extended. 21 I was hoping that perhaps more 22 would engage within the debate. Would have 23 loved to have heard from Senator Oppenheimer 24 on education, chair of Education. Loved to
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(518) 371-8910 1 hear from my good friend Senator Craig 2 Johnson, how all his Democrat Assemblymen from 3 Long Island are wrong and he's right, and the 4 commitment he made, no payroll tax. And 5 Senator Foley. But I guess it's for another 6 day. 7 And, Madam President, I thank you 8 for your courtesy. You've been up there a 9 long time. You've been very patient. And I 10 know that I have to conclude because we're 11 waiting for Senator Smith's comments 12 anxiously. 13 And I remember when we were closing 14 during the budget, Senator Smith said, you 15 know, "Look me in the eye. Do you think I 16 want to hurt people?" And I know, Senator 17 Smith, you don't want to hurt people. 18 But, you know, many times if an 19 individual is in a car and they're about to 20 rob a bank and one uses a gun, the other 21 person is also guilty of that robbery. So 22 today what we're doing is we are robbing the 23 pockets of our taxpayers from the hard-earned 24 dollars that they're working on, and we're
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(518) 371-8910 1 destroying job opportunities within this 2 state. 3 Madam President, I will be voting 4 no. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Thank you, Senator. 7 Senator Smith, to close for the 8 Majority. 9 SENATOR SMITH: Thank you, Madam 10 President. Let me first thank you for your 11 patience and your professionalism and the way 12 you have maintained the professional decorum 13 for this chamber. 14 I also want to thank my colleague 15 Senator Klein for his leadership on the floor, 16 dealing with a debate -- or dealing with 17 accusations, I should say; it really wasn't a 18 debate -- about what our colleagues fail to 19 realize is the mess that they left for the 20 last 12 to 14 years that they were in 21 leadership. 22 To Senator Dilan also, and Senator 23 Perkins, for all their work throughout this 24 entire process, which took us almost about
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(518) 371-8910 1 three months, back in December when it first 2 came out. And they spent a lot of time, 3 countless hours, on trying put together a 4 plan, some kind of plan that we could at least 5 make sure the MTA would be able to function 6 and have a capital plan that would allow it to 7 continue itself on out into the future. 8 Unfortunately, we are in a very 9 difficult financial time. We can't predict 10 what the market is going to be like four years 11 from now. And so therefore having a plan 12 that's a capital plan that really is more 13 about upkeep and maintenance of upkeep, 14 maintenance of effort for the rail systems and 15 the like, and then being able to come back and 16 hopefully the market is in a better place that 17 we'll be able to have bond issuances that will 18 be able to pay the capital plan for the 19 five-year plan, as well as roads and bridges 20 for upstate New York I'm sure we're going to 21 do. 22 This plan will, despite the 23 rhetoric from across the aisle, make sure that 24 our schools are reimbursed.
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(518) 371-8910 1 But what I find interesting is this 2 sort of intellectual epiphany that the other 3 side of the aisle always gets at this moment. 4 The MTA that we are dealing with is their 5 mess. We are the adults. We're trying to 6 solve a problem that they left. 7 Everybody on this side of the aisle 8 talked about how there was mismanagement, they 9 are bloated, they overspend money, they have 10 duplicative services, duplicative staff 11 people. And we don't disagree with you. We 12 don't disagree with you at all. But all the 13 years that you was in charge, you never held 14 them accountable. 15 We're making the Governor's 16 changes. We have the audit that has to 17 happen, the independent, outside audit. 18 Because no, we don't trust the MTA. We are 19 the ones that are restructuring their 20 management system so that they're going to be 21 more transparent. 22 We are the ones which you will see 23 the editorials, as you saw in the Daily News 24 today, Juan Gonzalez. The only thing he wrote
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(518) 371-8910 1 about this MTA bill was the fact that finally 2 there was someone courageous enough to tell 3 them how they have mismanaged their operation, 4 how they're a black hole, and now they're 5 going to have to be responsible because we are 6 the ones that are going to be able to veto 7 their entire capital plan if it is not 8 correct. 9 We took those efforts now. You had 10 that opportunity years ago, and you failed. 11 So let's not be misled. All we're doing is 12 cleaning up your mess. 13 We did the same thing with the 14 budget. Sure, the budget spent money that was 15 from the stimulus package. But who created 16 that mess? We didn't create that mess. When 17 we got elected, there was already a 18 $13 billion deficit. Did Democrats do that? 19 No. 20 And I don't want to sit here again, 21 as I said before, and don't make two wrongs a 22 right. There's no question about that. But 23 all I'm saying to each and every one of you is 24 this is going to be a bad year, because we
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(518) 371-8910 1 have to clean up your mess. By next year, you 2 will see the fruits of the labor of the 3 decisions that we made that were tough 4 decisions. 5 And we're not happy about it; no 6 one likes to tax people. There's no question 7 about that. What we are trying to do is to 8 fix a system that we agree, we agree, the 9 system is horrible. The MTA, believe me, if I 10 could take it apart tomorrow and send it to 11 some MBA school and have them restructure and 12 fix it from bottom up, I would do it 13 overnight. Because it needs it. 14 But at the end of the day, here's 15 the challenge that we're faced with. One, we 16 have to make sure the system still runs. We 17 have millions of people that use that transit 18 system, that go back and forth to work, that 19 have families that they have to take care of. 20 We have to make sure they can get in that 21 train and go back and forth. 22 Two, we had to make sure there were 23 no job cuts. There's a thousand people that 24 are going to lose their jobs. And we're not
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(518) 371-8910 1 talking about inside the MTA in the management 2 process, we're talking about conductors, we're 3 talking about people behind booths, all the 4 people that are just middle-class families. 5 We had to protect that. 6 And then, three, we had to make 7 sure that the transit system is kept up. 8 We've still got to fix the rails, the tracks. 9 We've still got to fix the stations. Buses 10 still need to be repaired. Those are just 11 basic things that have to be done. 12 We don't disagree that the MTA is a 13 train wreck. It is. Nobody disagrees with 14 that. All we're trying to do is to try to fix 15 the mess that was left to us. And I think 16 this is about as responsible as we can get. 17 The mayor of the City of New York, 18 while he says it's not the best plan, he says 19 but it's good enough to do the job. Dick 20 Ravitch, who was commissioned to put the plan 21 together, says it can do enough. The 22 Straphangers, Gene Russianoff, says it's good 23 enough to do the job. The editorials for the 24 most part are telling us you did the best that
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(518) 371-8910 1 you could out of a bad situation. 2 And so when you completely try to 3 chastise us because we put a financial package 4 together that may not solve all of their 5 problems, but does solve some, I don't know 6 what else to tell you that we should have 7 done. You could have gave us and you could 8 have told us what your ideas was. 9 You say to us that you wasn't 10 involved in the process. With the exception 11 of Lanza, who I did speak to, who said, "Let's 12 talk, I want to vote for this plan, I want to 13 be able to help you" -- we didn't have 14 dialogue after that, there's no question about 15 that. But he was the only one. No one sent 16 over anything. 17 I understand you sent a package to 18 the Governor that basically said let the 19 school districts raise their own taxes in 20 order for pay for this. Let the Indians pay 21 for it with the tobacco. 22 Now, you both know that Indian 23 money ain't coming -- $700 million that's 24 going to be in a lawsuit that will be going on
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(518) 371-8910 1 for about 10 years from now. We all know 2 that. So why would you put a proposal forward 3 that basically makes no sense? It made no 4 sense. 5 So here we are with no sense over 6 here and common sense over here. And so we 7 now have put a common-sense package together. 8 And we put a common-sense package together 9 that simply says if you don't like it, then 10 give us something else. And you didn't give 11 us anything else. 12 There was no way we could have 13 supported saying to Craig Johnson, I'm going 14 to tell Senator Johnson and I'm going to tell 15 Suzi Oppenheimer, go to your school districts 16 and tell your school districts raise as much 17 taxes as they need to pay their contribution. 18 There was no way in any good conscience that I 19 could put a bill together and ask any of my 20 colleagues to say pass a bill so that the 21 Indians, the tobacco tax they're going to pay 22 to us, we can use towards bailing out the MTA. 23 We both know Pataki tried to get 24 that money years ago, and the Indians put
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(518) 371-8910 1 tires all on the Thruway. And then if it 2 didn't happen on the Thruway, he'd have went 3 to court. And trust me, anybody in here 4 that's an attorney knows the court system will 5 wring that thing out for the next 10 years. 6 And then what would we have been doing? We'd 7 have been sitting here the laughingstock of 8 the state. 9 Well, I'm not going to have this 10 Senate body, my colleagues nor you, I'm not 11 going to have any of you being laughed at 12 because you have some misguided intellectual 13 interpretation of what the future's going to 14 look like so you're going to offer up just any 15 old proposal which you know is bottomless. 16 It's just that simple. 17 Do we agree that the MTA is a 18 runaway train? Absolutely. Is it bloated? 19 Absolutely. Is it a black hole? Absolutely. 20 The debate that we had on our side 21 of the aisle was because we don't like MTA 22 neither. Trust me. If I could have taken the 23 MTA apart, we would have done so. We put the 24 governance pieces in here because we're hoping
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(518) 371-8910 1 that this audit that gets done that we find 2 out about those 2700 duplicative positions 3 that the MTA has that's worth almost a couple 4 of hundred million dollars. We don't have all 5 the hard facts. But believe me, when this 6 thing is done, we'll have hard facts. 7 We think when we're done we're 8 going to have hard facts that tells us that 9 the MTA has $30 million worth of consultants 10 that they don't need. We know some of the 11 problems that they have. But you gave us the 12 tail end of this thing. We're on the tail 13 end. We have to do something. We have to do 14 something. 15 My belief, my belief, based on what 16 I heard today from each one of your colleagues 17 and my colleagues, is that we're going to do a 18 great job on taking the MTA apart after we get 19 this audit back. Because everything that you 20 said -- about the MTA, let's be clear -- the 21 things that you said about the MTA and how it 22 functions, you're absolutely right. They're a 23 bad authority. They are a bad authority. 24 So because you left us with this
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(518) 371-8910 1 mess, we had nothing left to do but try to fix 2 it. We had to do the responsible thing. 3 So, Madam President, I would only 4 say, to all of my colleagues: You did the 5 best that you could. You did a great job 6 under a very tough situation. And you should 7 not leave here and make anybody make you feel 8 that you did something wrong. You did nothing 9 wrong. When you leave here, when somebody 10 tells you you did something wrong, say "I was 11 cleaning up the mess." We were cleaning up 12 the mess. We didn't create that mess. You 13 didn't create that mess; you cleaned up the 14 mess. 15 Now, after the mess is going to be 16 cleaned up, we're going to create a better 17 authority, and hope to create it with your 18 help. 19 Senator Libous, you had 20 Transportation for a long time. I bet you you 21 have a wealth of knowledge on how to create a 22 better authority to handle the MTA those 23 12 years. I'm absolutely sure you do. And 24 I'm absolutely sure, when you sit with Senator
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(518) 371-8910 1 Dilan, you guys can make that happen. 2 But as of right now, we have to do 3 this. We have to do this. So I thank my 4 colleagues for their spirited statements about 5 how ridiculous the MTA is. It is, there's no 6 question about it. 7 I thank my colleagues on this side 8 of the aisle for being brave and showing 9 leadership under very difficult circumstances. 10 Under very difficult circumstances. And you 11 should be applauded for it. You will be 12 appreciated for it, you will hear it, you will 13 see it when the true story comes out -- and it 14 will come out -- that we were left a mess, and 15 you cleaned it up. 16 Thank you very much, Madam 17 President. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Thank you, Senator Smith. 20 There is a substitution of the bill 21 on the desk. 22 The Secretary will read. 23 THE SECRETARY: In relation to 24 Calendar Number 286, Senator Dilan moves to
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(518) 371-8910 1 discharge, from the Committee on Rules, 2 Assembly Bill Number 8180 and substitute it 3 for the identical Senate Bill Number 5451, 4 Third Reading Calendar 286. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Substitution ordered. 7 Read the last section. 8 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 9 act shall take effect immediately. 10 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 11 a slow roll call, please. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Seeing that five Senators have risen, a slow 14 roll call has been called. 15 The Secretary will ring the bell 16 and call the roll slowly. 17 THE SECRETARY: Senator Adams. 18 SENATOR ADAMS: Aye. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Addabbo. 20 SENATOR ADDABBO: Yes. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Alesi. 22 SENATOR ALESI: No. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator 24 Aubertine.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR AUBERTINE: Yes. 2 THE SECRETARY: Senator Bonacic. 3 SENATOR BONACIC: No. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Breslin. 5 SENATOR BRESLIN: Yes. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator 7 DeFrancisco. 8 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: To explain 9 my vote. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 11 Senator DeFrancisco, to explain his vote. 12 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I 13 appreciate the negative reaction from the 14 other side. 15 And I agree with Senator Smith that 16 they did the best that they could. But 17 unfortunately, it's putting this state into an 18 even deeper position than we're in after that 19 disastrous budget. 20 As far as the Republicans 21 putting -- taking -- having the mess created 22 so that you're going to correct it, I just 23 want to remind you, two years ago there was 24 another governor by the name of Spitzer, I
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(518) 371-8910 1 think. I can't keep track of how quickly they 2 come and go. But Governor Spitzer actually -- 3 during his term, the MTA two years ago had a 4 $1 billion surplus, a $1 billion surplus. I'd 5 like to have that mess now after two years of 6 different leadership. 7 Secondly, with respect to the 8 plaudits by the mayor and the editorial boards 9 in New York City, that's wonderful. That's as 10 legitimate as the plaudits by the 11 beneficiaries of this bill that are sitting on 12 the floor that we've talked about before. Of 13 course the people in New York City, at least 14 the editorial boards, there's a solution where 15 they won't have to pay higher subway fares, 16 and they don't have to pay more tolls on the 17 bridges. 18 But we have nothing upstate other 19 than a bill for the part of the project that 20 we have to pay for in decreased school aid. 21 So fairness is a good solution. This is not 22 fair. And although they did the best they 23 could on the other side of the aisle, they 24 didn't do it for the entire State of New York.
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(518) 371-8910 1 I vote no. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator DeFrancisco will be recorded in the 4 negative. 5 The Secretary will continue to call 6 the roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Diaz. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 Senator Diaz, to explain his vote. 10 SENATOR DIAZ: Thank you, Madam 11 President. 12 Tonight, after listening for four 13 hours to the other side, jiggety, jiggety, 14 jiggety, I am proud, Mr. Leader, to put my 15 vote in helping you to clean up the mess. So 16 I am proud to help you out tonight. 17 And by the way, Madam President, I 18 would have to thank the Four Amigos -- Senator 19 Kruger, Senator Espada, Senator Hiram 20 Monserrate, and Senator Hassell-Thompson and 21 Senator Parker, because -- 22 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: That's 23 six. 24 SENATOR DIAZ: No, no, no, wait,
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(518) 371-8910 1 wait, wait, wait. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 It's late. 4 SENATOR DIAZ: I'm the fourth 5 amigo. Listen. Because Senator Parker and 6 Senator Ruth Hassell-Thompson joined the Four 7 Amigos since day one to stop, to stop the 8 tolls on the bridges. 9 And even though the Daily News and 10 the Post and all the editorial boards was 11 against us and criticized us, and they even 12 picket my office, today I am proud, standing 13 here proud, telling my constituents I promised 14 you, constituents of the 32nd Senatorial 15 District, no tolls. Today, ladies and 16 gentlemen, no tolls. 17 (Laughter.) 18 SENATOR DIAZ: So ladies and 19 gentlemen, I'm proud. Senator Skelos, I'm 20 sorry. But, you know, I got to help you clean 21 the mess. 22 So, ladies and gentlemen, Madam 23 President, I'm going to go back -- no, no, I 24 was supposed to go back tonight. I'm going to
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(518) 371-8910 1 stay so I can collect the 160 dollars tomorrow 2 like everybody else. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Senator Diaz, how do you vote? 5 SENATOR DIAZ: Let me -- let me 6 explain my vote. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Senator Diaz, there is a two-minute 9 allocation. To explain the vote is two 10 minutes. 11 SENATOR DIAZ: Madam President -- 12 Madam President, I patiently waited two hours. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 But we're on a different section. So how -- 15 SENATOR DIAZ: So tonight is a 16 very important night and day for the State of 17 New York, where the new Democratic Senate is 18 voting yes. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Thank you. 21 SENATOR DIAZ: And I'm voting yes 22 to help clean up the mess. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Thank you, Senator Diaz.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR DIAZ: And my 2 constituents are happy to see me here tonight. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Senator Diaz will be recorded in the 5 affirmative. 6 The Secretary will continue to call 7 the roll. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Dilan. 9 SENATOR DILAN: I voted yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator Duane. 11 SENATOR DUANE: Yes. 12 THE SECRETARY: Senator Espada. 13 SENATOR ESPADA: Yes. 14 THE SECRETARY: Senator Farley. 15 SENATOR FARLEY: No. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Flanagan. 17 SENATOR FLANAGAN: To explain my 18 vote, Madam President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator Flanagan, to explain his vote. 21 SENATOR FLANAGAN: Thank you. 22 I listened very carefully to the 23 comments from many of my colleagues. I joined 24 in much of what Senator Sampson said about
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(518) 371-8910 1 taking our obligations seriously. 2 And I do want to pick up on one 3 thing that Senator Schneiderman said in terms 4 of a very important point in this legislation. 5 And it may be one little glimmer of hope, and 6 that is the breach of fiduciary duty. That's 7 something that I know I worked on with 8 Assemblyman Brodsky. Maybe that will help 9 make a difference. 10 But I want to direct my comments -- 11 and I realize I'm explaining my vote -- to the 12 Majority Leader. You complimented Madam 13 President on her role here today. 14 But I must tell you, as a member 15 and a colleague, I am extremely disappointed. 16 I got up and spoke, and I asked to have people 17 yield -- including you, Mr. Majority Leader -- 18 and you refused to do that. I don't believe 19 that shows good and proper decorum and 20 respect. 21 I'll engage with any one of my 22 colleagues on any issue any given time. 23 Debate is good. It's healthy. I feel like 24 what you did today was a hit and run.
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(518) 371-8910 1 I listened very carefully to the 2 comments you just made about cleaning up the 3 mess and all this intellectual dishonesty. 4 You want to engage, you want to debate, then 5 let's do it. Let's do it in the course of a 6 debate, not at the end of the debate. 7 And I listened to you reference my 8 colleague Senator Lanza as "Lanza" and former 9 Governor Pataki as "Pataki." If there's going 10 to be a sense of decorum, it's "Senator 11 Lanza", it's "Governor Pataki," it's "Governor 12 Spitzer." 13 And if we are going to engage, then 14 let's have a full-blown debate so we can have 15 the intellectual honesty that you're looking 16 for and that I'm looking for. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 18 Senator Flanagan -- 19 SENATOR FLANAGAN: I vote no. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 Senator Flanagan will be recorded in the 22 negative. 23 And again, Senator Flanagan, the 24 Senate rules say that unless one has engaged
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(518) 371-8910 1 in discussion on the bill, one is not to 2 really answer. 3 The Secretary will continue to call 4 the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Foley. 6 SENATOR FOLEY: Aye. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator 8 Fuschillo. 9 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: Madam 10 President, to explain my vote. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Fuschillo, to explain his vote. 13 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: The 14 legislation over Governor Paterson's MTA tax 15 plan will increase Long Island Railroad 16 commuters, over the next three years, what 17 they pay on a monthly basis by more than 18 25 percent. Retail businesses in the 12 19 counties will pay more than $60 million in 20 this new tax. School districts will pay 21 nearly $100 million in this new tax. 22 And there's no guarantee. The STAR 23 rebate was in statute; the Governor took that 24 out. Now there's language that said he has
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(518) 371-8910 1 the intent to reimburse school districts. 2 There's no guarantee. 3 This was referred to as a 4 common-sense package from the Majority Leader, 5 and we did the best we could. Well, it's not 6 good enough. Because as the ticket goes, 7 we're now over $10 billion that you've 8 created, the Democrats in the new Majority, in 9 less than a month in new taxes to the 10 residents. 11 How any legislator here in the 12 12 counties can support this is a failure to 13 represent their districts, to represent their 14 constituents in a responsible manner. We all 15 run on the theme that we're going to improve 16 the quality of life for everybody who lives in 17 our district. This does not improve the 18 quality of life. 19 The end result, Majority Leader 20 Smith -- as you said may be cleaning up the 21 mess -- is going to result in higher 22 unemployment, more businesses downtown being 23 closed, and school districts passing on their 24 costs, and local governments and hospitals and
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(518) 371-8910 1 nonprofits and libraries, to the taxpayers. 2 Because that's who pays them, we the 3 taxpayers. 4 And on Long Island, we get killed. 5 We get destroyed. And there's nothing in this 6 bill that Governor Paterson has brought to 7 this body that you've sponsored that is good. 8 It hurts Long Island residents. It destroys 9 businesses even further than they could be 10 destroyed -- 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Fuschillo, how do you vote? 13 SENATOR FUSCHILLO: I proudly 14 vote no, Madam President. Thank you very 15 much. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Fuschillo to be recorded in the 18 negative. 19 The Secretary will continue calling 20 the roll. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Golden. 22 SENATOR GOLDEN: To explain my 23 vote. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Golden, to explain his vote. 2 SENATOR GOLDEN: Thank you, Madam 3 President. 4 As I had said in my earlier 5 comments, the spending is out of control. And 6 I heard the Majority Leader talk about what he 7 inherited. Revisionist history going on here, 8 especially when it comes to Governor Eliot 9 Spitzer two and a half years ago, Governor 10 Paterson, Shelly Silver in the Assembly. 11 And I also want to take into 12 consideration that the Majority Leader and the 13 Democrats voted for the MTA plans each and 14 every year -- each and every five years that 15 we did the plan. 16 And I also want to point out that 17 they voted for the budget each and every year 18 when they could have voted no. They could 19 have stood up and said no, spending was out of 20 control. 21 So what they've done is increased 22 this spending to unbelievable heights that 23 nobody could ever believe that we'd be at 24 $132 billion, heading to $140 billion in
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(518) 371-8910 1 spending. The hypocrisy in this room is 2 amazing. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, not only is 4 this runaway train, spending train on a 5 one-way track with that runaway taxing train, 6 but the Senate Democrats in this room are 7 ripping up the tracks behind them so those 8 taxpayers, our families, the people of this 9 great state won't even be able to return after 10 you've finished what you've done here with 11 this budget this year. It's sad, and it's 12 getting worse. 13 All I can say is the people in my 14 district are going to pay 25 percent more, 15 they're going to get less services because the 16 capital program that we put together is 17 insufficient to deal with the capital so we 18 can't even repair the infrastructure that has 19 to be repaired. 20 The people of my city and my 21 district are going to be disgusted by what 22 we've done here, and we will have a price to 23 pay for that in the years to come. And I 24 hope, and I'm just hoping that this budget
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(518) 371-8910 1 somehow has the decency on the other side of 2 the room to come up with numbers that work. 3 These numbers -- 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Golden -- 6 SENATOR GOLDEN: These numbers 7 don't work. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 How do you vote, Senator Golden? 10 SENATOR GOLDEN: I vote no, Madam 11 President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Senator Golden to be recorded in the negative. 14 The Secretary will continue to call 15 the roll. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Griffo. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 18 Senator Griffo, to explain his vote. 19 SENATOR GRIFFO: Madam President, 20 to explain my vote. 21 You know, the concern that I have 22 here, Majority Leader, is we need to stand up 23 for something. And this was done in a 24 secretive and closed process.
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(518) 371-8910 1 It's the leader's responsibility 2 and obligation to communicate and to reach out 3 to members. That wasn't done. You violated 4 the process in the budget, you violated the 5 Budget Reform Act of 2007, you ignored it, and 6 you continue to do that now. 7 You talked about the collection of 8 the Indian sales tax, and you have an 9 obligation and responsibility to insist that 10 the Governor enforce that law and to work with 11 him to do that. 12 So today, a secretive process, 13 abandoning upstate roads and bridges, hurting 14 upstate schools, costing upstate taxpayers 15 money in this budget process. This is 16 unfortunate. And I think today, you know, MTA 17 stands for More Taxes Again. And it's -- what 18 I have seen, the trend here, during this 19 budget and during this particular process 20 tonight, is bad process, bad plans make for 21 bad policy. 22 I vote no. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Senator Griffo to be recorded in the negative.
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(518) 371-8910 1 The Secretary will continue to call 2 the roll. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Hannon. 4 SENATOR HANNON: To explain my 5 vote, Madam President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Hannon, to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR HANNON: I rise to oppose 9 this so-called MTA bailout. I think it's my 10 job to oppose it because it's supposed to be 11 helping people in the Metropolitan 12 Transportation Region, and yet I think it 13 hurts. 14 I think it hurts for having the 15 goal of having a transportation system that 16 gets people to work. Because what's going to 17 happen in the decision-making that will take 18 place from here on in with this payroll tax, 19 with the increased fees, with the increased 20 tolls, is that businesses will decide it's not 21 good to be in the MTA region, it's not good to 22 be in New York. They'll move. 23 I rise to oppose it because I think 24 it's my job to oppose something that hurts
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(518) 371-8910 1 people. If we are supposed to help the rider, 2 we aren't supposed to do it in this way that's 3 only going to raise their property taxes. 4 They're the little people. I think it's my 5 job to oppose something that imposes charges 6 on hospitals, on churches, on charities, 7 villages, towns and counties. It only goes to 8 the property tax. 9 And I think it's my job to oppose a 10 whole process where this was not debated, 11 Where the prior experience was ignored. 12 And I also think it's my job to 13 oppose something that does not deal with a 14 capital plan -- doesn't deal with an MTA 15 capital plan, doesn't deal with a highway and 16 bridge capital plan. And highways and bridges 17 are as much a part of the metropolitan area as 18 they are upstate. And if you've ever worked 19 your way through an MTA project, you know you 20 have to do highways and bridges at the same 21 time. 22 We have failed. This is not good. 23 I oppose it. 24 Thank you, Madam President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Hannon to be recorded in the negative. 3 The Secretary will continue to call 4 the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Hassell-Thompson. 7 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Yes. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Huntley. 9 SENATOR HUNTLEY: Yes. 10 THE SECRETARY: Senator C. 11 Johnson. 12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Madam 13 President, to explain my vote. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Senator C. Johnson, to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 17 you. I'm just going to simply clarify the 18 record using my time, because we've heard a 19 lot tonight and it's been a very spirited 20 debate. And what's important about debate is 21 just discussing facts and getting things 22 correct. 23 I think it's just important, as I 24 vote, I'll be voting the same way that Nassau
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(518) 371-8910 1 Democratic Assemblymembers have voted, Senator 2 Skelos, as you may be interested. Maybe I 3 misheard you, but Assemblyman Levine, 4 Assemblywoman Schimel, Assemblywoman Hooper -- 5 who all represent Nassau County, who all 6 represent men and women who use the Long 7 Island Railroad, who all pay property taxes -- 8 all voted in favor of this. 9 So I just want to clarify the 10 record in case I misheard when the statement 11 was all Nassau County Democratic 12 Assemblymembers voted against this. I think 13 the record needs to accurately reflect that. 14 I'll be voting yes. Thank you very 15 much. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Johnson to be recorded in the 18 affirmative. 19 The Secretary will continue calling 20 the roll. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator O. 22 Johnson. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Senator O. Johnson, to explain his vote.
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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR OWEN JOHNSON: It sounds 2 Irish, but it's not. 3 Well, I think the second shoe has 4 fallen. The first shoe was the budget, which 5 was a mockery of democracy because we had 6 nothing to say about it. We didn't see the 7 bill, it was thrown on our desks: This is it, 8 take it or leave it. 9 The second shoe fell, another 10 $2.5 billion worth of taxes on our 11 constituents. No debate, no participation in 12 joint conference committees or anything else, 13 as we did in the past. So it was really all 14 your show. And you said this is it, take it 15 or leave it. We have to take it or leave it. 16 But it really sounds more like a 17 Third World country where there's a one-party 18 system and nobody else can participate. 19 That's why the people are suffering. That's 20 why the taxes are so high now, and that's why 21 they're going to be inconvenienced in many 22 ways, by this budget and by this bill. 23 And frankly, on that side, someone 24 said that, well, what we're doing to you is
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(518) 371-8910 1 what you did to us. But it wasn't quite the 2 same, because then you had a Democrat Assembly 3 and Republicans here, so there was some 4 balance of power. There's no balance of power 5 now. You can do what you want to the people 6 of this state. 7 I resent what you're doing to the 8 people of this state, and we're going to have 9 to change that in the future. 10 And I vote no. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator O. Johnson to be recorded in the 13 negative. 14 The Secretary will continue calling 15 the roll. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Klein. 17 SENATOR KLEIN: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator L. 19 Krueger. 20 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: To explain 21 my vote. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator L. Krueger, to explain her vote. 24 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: You know,
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(518) 371-8910 1 sometimes when you spend enough time in this 2 chamber, you feel like reality has stopped. 3 So to explain my vote. 4 If we let the MTA collapse, closing 5 down bus service, reducing subway service, 6 reducing Long Island Railroad service, Metro 7 North, we end the future of the economically 8 strongest region of our state, in a time where 9 every single one of us, no matter where we 10 represent, is completely dependent on making 11 sure that New York State moves forward with a 12 21st-century economy. 13 We're talking about a million more 14 New Yorkers coming into the New York City area 15 in the next 15 years. Everyone in the MTA 16 region has a direct and integral economic 17 relationship with the MTA and with the City of 18 New York. 19 And yet, again, my city seems to 20 become a four-letter word on this floor, in 21 this honorable chamber. What we are doing 22 tonight is what we have to do to make sure 23 that we do the right thing for every single 24 one of our constituents.
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(518) 371-8910 1 We're not costing the schools; the 2 money is going back. Every business in the 3 region is dependent on the economic activity 4 that comes out of the jobs that the commuters 5 to and from New York have and earn income and 6 come home and use their services and use their 7 businesses in their local county. 8 The upstate economy is driven by 9 whether or not we have economic activity in 10 the City of New York. And without a 11 functioning 21st-century mass transit system, 12 it all falls apart. 13 And to correct some people, yes, it 14 is for capital money. Yes, it is for 15 operating money. Yes, it is for the Metro 16 North and the Long Island Railroad and the 17 buses in all those counties. And if anybody 18 imagines you could function in a car-only 19 system -- 20 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 21 Senator Krueger, how do you vote? 22 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: -- you are 23 wrong. 24 And I am voting yes. Thank you,
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(518) 371-8910 1 Madam President. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator L. Krueger to be recorded in the 4 affirmative. 5 The Secretary will continue to call 6 the roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator C. 8 Kruger. 9 SENATOR CARL KRUGER: To explain 10 my vote. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator C. Kruger, to explain his vote. 13 SENATOR CARL KRUGER: It's often 14 said that it's easier to curse the darkness 15 than to light a candle. Tonight, our Majority 16 Leader Malcolm Smith has lit that candle. 17 Tonight we begin a journey, a journey that 18 says that only will we provide for 19 transparency and accountability at the MTA, 20 but we will provide for a methodology and A 21 mechanism for both their operating and capital 22 expense. 23 At the end of the day, we're 24 righting the ship. The ship was not listing,
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(518) 371-8910 1 the ship was sinking. And we had an 2 obligation, a moral obligation to move forward 3 with a program. The program is not everything 4 we would have wanted, but it has a 5 accomplished one thing directly. It has kept 6 the City of New York together. 7 I and initially my amigos that were 8 joined by so many of my other colleagues in 9 this house prevented the city from being 10 divided into Manhattan and the other boroughs. 11 There is no tolling. There is a 12 program in place. There's an audit that's 13 going to happen. There's transparency. 14 There's accountability. And tonight we have 15 to thank our Majority Leader, Malcolm Smith, 16 for putting the MTA on the right course. 17 I vote yes. Thank you. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Senator C. Kruger to be recorded in the 20 affirmative. 21 The Secretary will continue to call 22 the roll. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Lanza. 24 SENATOR LANZA: No.
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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Larkin. 2 SENATOR LARKIN: Positively no. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator LaValle. 4 SENATOR LaVALLE: To explain my 5 vote, Madam President. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator LaValle, to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR LaVALLE: Very briefly. 9 I listened to Senator Krueger talking about 10 helping her city. I heard Senator Diaz in a 11 very celebratory manner talk about no tolls 12 that makes his people happy. 13 This does not make people on Long 14 Island happy. They feel that they're being 15 punished. If we are to deal with crises like 16 this as we did in 1974 to save the city, there 17 was an ethos that prevailed that every member 18 felt empowered to participate to save the 19 city. We did not have the same atmosphere and 20 the same collegiality to be involved with 21 saving the MTA. 22 I vote no. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Senator LaValle to be recorded in the
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(518) 371-8910 1 negative. 2 The Secretary will continue calling 3 the roll. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Leibell. 5 SENATOR LEIBELL: No. 6 THE SECRETARY: Senator Libous. 7 SENATOR LIBOUS: Madam President, 8 to explain my vote. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Libous, to explain his vote. 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: I'm not going to 12 repeat what I said earlier, but this plan is 13 missing something. It's missing a road and 14 bridge plan for the rest of the state. 15 The MTA region isn't the only 16 region in the state. And, Mr. Majority 17 Leader, yes, you're right, I would have loved 18 to have been engaged and debate this, like we 19 did it four and a half years ago with members 20 of your side of the aisle, members of the 21 Assembly -- and the public, because we debated 22 in public. 23 And we came up with a $17.5 billion 24 plan for the MTA and a $17.5 billion plan for
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(518) 371-8910 1 roads and bridges. What's missing here is a 2 road and bridge plan for upstate New York, for 3 the Hudson Valley, for the MTA region, and for 4 the rest of the state. 5 And, Mr. Majority Leader, in all 6 due respect, you took a shot at this side of 7 the aisle about some of the proposals we used, 8 and you talked about the Indian tax 9 collection. Well, I might remind you, sir, 10 that Senator Klein uses those same revenues in 11 a bill that he has to reduce property taxes. 12 So you might want to have a conversation with 13 him before you have to clean up his mess. 14 I vote no. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Libous to be recorded in the negative. 17 The Secretary will continue calling 18 the roll. 19 THE SECRETARY: Senator Little, 20 excused. 21 Senator Marcellino. 22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: To explain 23 my vote. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Marcellino, to explain his vote. 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I heard the 3 Majority Leader, my good friend Senator 4 Malcolm Smith, talk about editorials. Let me 5 read a couple. 6 The New York Post: "That's a Deal? 7 Fare Hike 10 Percent." Newsday.com, "Derail 8 Albany's MTA Bailout." The Long Island 9 Association News: "State Legislature should 10 vote against proposed MTA Bailout." The 11 New York Daily News -- I think you cited this 12 one -- "Straphangers Suffer. Senate Majority 13 Leader Smith's Alleged MTA Bailout is a Train 14 Wreck." Now you know where I got the line. 15 Again, from the Daily News: 16 "Malcolm's Muddle: MTA taxi tax would be a 17 nightmare to impose or collect." The 18 Poughkeepsie Journal: "MTA Fix Isn't Better 19 with Age." Again, Newsday: "Business 20 School's Officials Blast MTA Payroll Aid." 21 The Times Herald Record: "Local taxi drivers 22 say even 50-cent MTA surcharge will be a 23 burden." Politickerny.com: "Albany amuck: 24 Whose bailout is this anyway?"
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(518) 371-8910 1 I mean, I read the editorials too, 2 Senator, and they don't simply say everything 3 you said. I also like Senator Klein's idea 4 for the Indians. We'll join you, we'll go 5 collect them together, Jeff, and perhaps we 6 can get it done. I think it's a good idea. 7 Madam President, I said before this 8 bill needs more work, should have been better 9 discussed, and I'm going to vote no on this 10 present form, because I think we're going to 11 be revisiting this thing over and over again. 12 Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Marcellino to be recorded in the 15 negative. 16 The Secretary will continue calling 17 the roll. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator Maziarz. 19 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Madam 20 President, to explain my vote. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 22 Senator Maziarz, to explain his vote. 23 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 24 much, Madam President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Madam President, I don't see how 2 anyone from Western New York could vote to 3 have their constituents, their constituents 4 pay through their state income tax for the 5 reimbursement to the school districts in the 6 MTA region. 7 Senator Smith, people in Western 8 New York are angry. They're angry, Senator 9 Smith, because you stood at Chef's Restaurant 10 and you said that you were going to make a 11 Senator from Western New York the chairman of 12 the Senate Finance Committee. You just didn't 13 tell them the truth. 14 You took $550 million from the 15 Niagara Power Project. Congressman Brian 16 Higgins said you did more damage to Western 17 New York in that one day than the Power 18 Authority has given to Western New York in 19 over 50 years. 20 This week we voted to put two 21 additional commissioners on the NFTA. James 22 Eagan, your fundraiser for the Democratic 23 Senate Campaign Committee, James Eagan said 24 that that legislation was unnecessary and a
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(518) 371-8910 1 detriment to transportation in Western 2 New York. Robert Gioia, an appointee of 3 former Governor Mario Cuomo, said that your 4 budget was a catastrophic blow to healthcare 5 in Western New York. 6 But there is a silver lining to 7 this anger. People are getting involved. I 8 was at a union-sponsored function last 9 Saturday, and a young woman came up to me and 10 she said, "I am running for the New York State 11 Senate next year." She's a member of the 12 Working Families Party. She doesn't live in 13 my district. But she said, "I'm running." 14 I said, "Why are you running for 15 the New York State Senate next year?" You 16 know, you've got kids in high school and that. 17 She said, "I'm running because I'm angry. I'm 18 tired of Western New York having to have so 19 much taken away from it." 20 On a positive note, though -- and I 21 do want to end on a positive note -- I was, 22 like Senator Libous, very happy to hear your 23 reference to the cigarette tax and that it 24 will never be collected. Because just a
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(518) 371-8910 1 couple of weeks ago, Senator Stachowski and I 2 debated -- he is cosponsoring Senator Klein's 3 bill to restore the STAR rebate check program. 4 And he was saying on television how they're 5 going to restore the STAR rebate program and 6 they're going to collect the cigarette tax to 7 pay for it. 8 And I said what you said, Senator 9 Smith, that they're never going to collect the 10 cigarette tax, that that's all just -- 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Maziarz, how do you vote? 13 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 14 Madam President. I vote in the negative. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Maziarz to be recorded in the 17 negative. 18 The Secretary will please continue 19 calling the roll. 20 THE SECRETARY: Senator McDonald. 21 SENATOR McDONALD: No. 22 THE SECRETARY: Senator 23 Monserrate. 24 SENATOR MONSERRATE: I vote yes.
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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator 2 Montgomery. 3 SENATOR MONTGOMERY: Yes. 4 THE SECRETARY: Senator Morahan. 5 SENATOR MORAHAN: To explain my 6 vote. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Senator Morahan, to explain his vote. 9 SENATOR MORAHAN: Senator Smith, 10 let me just explain where I'm coming from 11 here. 12 There are 12 counties in this MTA 13 region. Ten of them are on the plus side with 14 the contributions of the MTA to those two 15 counties. The two counties I represent, 16 Rockland County and Orange County, are in the 17 negative, a value gap of $75 million a year in 18 services and contributions from the MTA. 19 In other words, it's costing us, 20 after the MTA rebates, after the recipients 21 from the MTA of, say, 70, we are paying over 22 $75 million over and above that. The only two 23 counties in the region on the very short end 24 of the stick.
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(518) 371-8910 1 We have a county legislature which 2 is a Democrat legislature back home in 3 Rockland County who voted last night for me to 4 put a bill in to withdraw from the MTA. Today 5 in the Assembly, my two colleagues on the 6 Democrat side, representing the same area, are 7 going to cosponsor that bill, and they also 8 voted. It's a terrible situation. 9 Now, on top of that shortfall, this 10 bill that we voted on tonight adds another 11 $7 million to my municipalities, schools, 12 okay, another $7 million on top of the 75. 13 And that doesn't count what we're going to 14 have to pay for by our employees through the 15 payroll tax. 16 We have one train, one train. It 17 goes down to Hoboken on a local -- 18 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 19 Senator Morahan -- 20 SENATOR MORAHAN: -- then you 21 have to take it over to PATH, then you have to 22 take it up by subway, then you have to get a 23 cab -- 24 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS:
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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator, how do you vote? 2 SENATOR MORAHAN: I vote no. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Senator Morahan to be recorded in the 5 negative. 6 The Secretary will continue to call 7 the roll. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Nozzolio. 9 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: Madam 10 President, I ask permission to explain my 11 vote. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Senator Nozzolio, to explain his vote. 14 SENATOR NOZZOLIO: I wasn't going 15 to rise, but when I heard Senator Smith 16 indicate that he did not believe that the law 17 that this body passed, that we worked together 18 in a bipartisan fashion, with Senator Klein 19 and others, to support the collection of those 20 taxes -- the only thing worse than taxation is 21 taxation that's distributed unevenly. One 22 rule for Indian and one for non-Indian 23 businesses. 24 To suggest that the enforcement of
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(518) 371-8910 1 the laws of this state is a fantasy in my view 2 is one of the worst things I've ever heard in 3 this chamber. Every member of this chamber 4 took an oath to uphold the laws of this state. 5 And for the leader of this Senate 6 to indicate that a law that this Senate passed 7 would not be enforced sends a tremendously 8 terrible signal to the citizens of every 9 corner of the state. And my district, which 10 is seeing business after business destroyed 11 because of uneven taxation, is now going to be 12 depressed more than ever. 13 This bill destroys much of commerce 14 and industry and jobs in this state. But to 15 have the comments made that the laws of this 16 state are not going to be enforced I think is 17 a sad day, and that everyone should rise up. 18 We've already done this once, with 19 the "drug dealer protection act" earlier this 20 month, the so-called Rockefeller Drug Law 21 reform. Now the Majority Leader has indicated 22 we're not going to enforce the taxation laws 23 of this state in an even fashion. A sad day, 24 Madam President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 I vote no on this measure. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Nozzolio to be recorded in the 4 negative. 5 The Secretary will continue to call 6 the roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Onorato. 8 SENATOR ONORATO: Aye. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator 10 Oppenheimer. 11 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: To explain 12 my vote. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Oppenheimer, to explain her vote. 15 SENATOR OPPENHEIMER: Thank you, 16 Madam President. 17 I know for sure that there are many 18 governments, municipal governments, 19 businesses, corporations that are going to be 20 unhappy with the additional costs. And if I 21 had my druthers, I would have been pleased to 22 offer an exemption to our not-for-profits and 23 our municipalities who also will bear the 24 costs in their -- we will bear the costs in
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(518) 371-8910 1 the property tax. 2 But I am happy that we were able to 3 do something for the schools and therefore 4 able to keep some level on the property tax 5 burden. 6 The alternative, as I see it, is to 7 have charged the passengers on the trains and 8 on the subways and the buses 30 percent more. 9 And most of the people who are riding on that 10 mode of transportation don't perhaps have as 11 much money as the people that have cars. And 12 they are the people that we need to support, 13 because they are filling jobs that need to be 14 filled, they have to get to work. And if 15 there is not going to be a bus at midnight or 16 at 1 o'clock to get some of the working women 17 who are working in our buildings at night -- 18 if they're working at 250 Broadway and they 19 can't get home because there's no bus and they 20 haven't a car, then what are they going to do? 21 So I think we have to think of the 22 people that perhaps are not as affluent as 23 those of us in this chamber. And I really 24 feel that there's an alternative.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Do I love this? I really applaud 2 what was spoken by our leader, because he said 3 it beautifully. It's the best that we could 4 do. And it isn't wonderful, but it's done. 5 I'm voting yes. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Oppenheimer to be recorded in the 8 affirmative. 9 The Secretary will continue to read 10 the roll. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Padavan. 12 SENATOR PADAVAN: No. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Parker. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 15 Senator Parker, to explain his vote. 16 SENATOR PARKER: Yes, Madam 17 President. 18 First, let me congratulate the 19 leader, let me congratulate the Governor, let 20 me congratulate the Speaker, let me 21 congratulate the members who are voting yes on 22 this bill. We have done a good thing today. 23 We have taken care of our business the way we 24 were voted to do. We made promises when we
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(518) 371-8910 1 got elected that we would take care of things, 2 and today we did those things. 3 What we should do right now, 4 though, is get the record straight. Let's be 5 clear, Senator Lanza. You voted no against 6 your residents who take the MTA for them to 7 have a lower fare. You voted no today, 8 Senator Golden, for your voters and your 9 constituents who ride the MTA, for them to 10 have their buses and their trains restored. 11 You voted no, Senator Padavan, today to make 12 sure that there is more transparency and 13 accountability in the MTA. 14 Those are the votes that you took 15 today. We took votes to make sure that we 16 restored a proper transit system for New York 17 City. We restored today, with our votes, a 18 transparent and accountable system that will 19 go to the future. We're cleaning up your 20 mess. All this stuff -- we've been here less 21 than a hundred days. This stuff didn't get 22 this messed up in a hundred days. Come on. 23 You want to talk about a lockbox, 24 Senator Libous? That lockbox got raided way
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(518) 371-8910 1 before then. 2 I'm glad that you said, Senator 3 Flanagan, that you talked about Governor 4 Pataki, because we were 35 percent more in 5 debt after Governor Pataki left office than we 6 were the day he took over in 1994. The 7 reality is is you mismanaged this state. 8 Senator Maziarz, if Western 9 New York is messed up, it's because your 10 leadership has been failed, it has been 11 impotent to turn those places around. Buffalo 12 is one of the most outmigrated cities in the 13 entire country. And it didn't happen in the 14 last hundred days. 15 So let's get the record straight. 16 Your mismanagement is what caused you to be on 17 that side of the aisle and why we have a new 18 day here in America. We have a new day right 19 now because the record is straight about who 20 has taken the leadership of our economy and 21 the transparency and who has mismanaged the -- 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Senator Parker -- 24 SENATOR PARKER: -- the resources
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(518) 371-8910 1 of the state. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Parker, how do you vote? 4 SENATOR PARKER: I vote yes. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 6 Senator Parker to be recorded in the 7 affirmative. 8 Senator Lanza, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR LANZA: Madam President, 10 point of personal privilege. Senator Parker 11 mentioned my name. I'd like to respond. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Senator Lanza, there have been a number of 14 people who have mentioned other people's 15 names. 16 SENATOR LANZA: And at any time, 17 if anybody was accused of doing something, 18 they could have raised the point of privilege 19 the way I'm doing it. 20 I'm raising that point of privilege 21 because I was accused of doing something by 22 one of my colleagues, and I'd like to respond. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 Senator Lanza, please make your response in
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(518) 371-8910 1 about 30 seconds. 2 SENATOR LANZA: Thank you, Madam 3 President. 4 Senator Parker, I didn't vote no to 5 keep fare increases from happening. You're 6 voting yes to increase fares. That's getting 7 the record straight. Fares are going up. 8 Tolls are going up. 9 SENATOR PARKER: No, fares are 10 coming down. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Okay -- 13 SENATOR PARKER: Point of order. 14 That's incorrect. The fare's coming down. 15 The MTA took a vote -- 16 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 17 Senator Lanza, Senator Parker -- 18 SENATOR PARKER: Yes, ma'am. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 -- I allocated 30 seconds, and we have now to 21 start that 30 seconds again. 22 Senator Lanza, 30 seconds. 23 SENATOR LANZA: Thank you, Madam 24 President.
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(518) 371-8910 1 Let's get the record straight, as 2 you say. Fares are going up. The tolls are 3 going up. Taxes are going up by $2.5 billion. 4 That's what you're voting yes for. That's 5 what I'm voting against. 6 Thank you, Madam President. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 The Secretary will continue to call the roll. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Perkins. 10 SENATOR PERKINS: I'd like to 11 take a moment to explain my vote. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Senator Perkins, to explain his vote. 14 SENATOR PERKINS: On a similar 15 note, our Majority Leader reminds us that MTA 16 has become ATM, A Total Mess. 17 And so we have decided through this 18 legislation that we could do better than that 19 which we inherited. And so we're going to 20 make lemonade out of a lemon, and we're going 21 to make MTA not only be an agency, a 22 corporation and authority that gets the 23 revenues that will provide the end of the 24 draconian problem that Ravitch and others have
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(518) 371-8910 1 presented to us, but will also include the 2 opportunity for MTA to stand for more 3 transparency and accountability. 4 And so I'm pleased that we have 5 moved in this very positive direction, and I'm 6 especially pleased because a sweetener to it 7 all is that we have MWBE also in our 8 governance initiative with this piece of 9 legislation. There will be more minority and 10 women business enterprises involved as well. 11 So I vote yes because of all of 12 that. Thank you. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 Senator Perkins to be recorded in the 15 affirmative. 16 The Secretary will continue to call 17 the roll. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator 19 Ranzenhofer. 20 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: No. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Robach. 22 SENATOR ROBACH: No. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Saland. 24 SENATOR SALAND: To explain my
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(518) 371-8910 1 vote. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Saland, to explain his vote. 4 SENATOR SALAND: Just very 5 quickly. 6 I seem to recollect, as was 7 referred to earlier by Senator DeFrancisco, 8 that about a year or so ago there was a 9 billion-dollar surplus that the MTA claimed to 10 have had. The interesting question would be 11 how was it squandered. And that really has 12 not been a subject of this debate. 13 The obvious pride that some of my 14 Democratic colleagues have coming from the 15 city and what this means to the city and how 16 important it is to the city does really not 17 expand or reverberate through the rest of the 18 MTA region. 19 As I said earlier, my county 20 suffers terribly. We suffer the double whammy 21 of not only, as I mentioned, some 98 percent 22 of people not using the MTA, a similar number 23 of businesses deriving absolutely zero benefit 24 from the MTA. What we need is roads and
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(518) 371-8910 1 bridges. We don't get roads and bridges. 2 Those taxpayers who are somewhat 3 chagrined, to say the least, at losing their 4 STAR rebate I think will put little faith in 5 this vague promise of an intent to restore. 6 If this were to be done correctly, 7 I would take issue with the current Education 8 chair. There should have been a straight-out 9 exemption. This is a wing and a prayer. 10 Lastly, if we were to create a 11 Taxpayer Offender Registry, not unlike the Sex 12 Offender Registry, the two biggest culprits 13 would probably be the budget bill that the new 14 majority, Democrat majority imposed upon us 15 and the rest of the state this year, and the 16 second culprit would be this MTA piece. 17 You're talking about a modest 18 $11 billion or so. Not exactly pocket change. 19 And that's without the stimulus. We've lost 20 146,000 jobs over the course of the past nine 21 months. You can rest assured that between 22 your budget and your MTA plan, there will be 23 thousands of others leaving. 24 I vote in the negative.
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Saland to be recorded in the negative. 3 The Secretary will continue calling 4 the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Sampson. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 7 Senator Sampson, to explain his vote. 8 SENATOR SAMPSON: I vote yes. 9 That's all I wanted to say. 10 (Laughter.) 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Sampson to be recorded in the 13 affirmative. 14 The Secretary will continue calling 15 the roll. 16 THE SECRETARY: Senator Savino. 17 SENATOR SAVINO: Yes. 18 THE SECRETARY: Senator 19 Schneiderman. 20 SENATOR SCHNEIDERMAN: Aye. 21 THE SECRETARY: Senator Serrano. 22 SENATOR SERRANO: Yes. 23 THE SECRETARY: Senator Seward. 24 SENATOR SEWARD: No.
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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Senator Skelos. 2 SENATOR SKELOS: Madam President, 3 just quickly to explain my vote. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Skelos, to explain his vote. 6 SENATOR SKELOS: Senator 7 Parker -- and I think Senator Lanza mentioned 8 it -- the Ravitch Commission, if we did 9 nothing today, fares would have gone up 10 30 percent. You're raising them 27 percent, 11 yet taxing billions of dollars with our 12 citizens throughout the state, our hospitals, 13 our nursing homes, our charities. 14 And Senator Johnson, I apologize if 15 I had the wrong information. But the bottom 16 line is Nassau County is going to lose 17 $5 million, Suffolk County over $4 million. 18 Schools, if the commitment is not kept, 19 $97 million. The Town of Hempstead, $500,000. 20 The Town of North Hempstead, $180,000. 21 Village of Mineola, which you represent, 22 $20,000. Different school districts -- Elmont 23 School District, $189,000. Westbury, 24 $278,000. East Williston, $136,000. Port
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(518) 371-8910 1 Washington, where you live, $348,000. 2 Mineola, $224,000. 3 And I can go through the entire 4 list of school districts, villages, charities 5 that are going to lose money and pass it on to 6 the real property taxpayers by the action that 7 you're taking today. 8 You know, I would have loved if you 9 would raise some of these issues during the 10 debate. But I notice that many of -- yourself 11 and many other colleagues were not here to 12 debate us. And I think many of our colleagues 13 are correct, we wanted to engage today. We 14 wanted to engage today. But Senator 15 Oppenheimer wouldn't speak, you wouldn't 16 speak. Came in and made a gratuitous speech. 17 Senator Smith, thank you for 18 clearing up about cigarette taxes. And 19 Senator Klein, we'll discuss that, I guess, 20 next week. Because maybe, as you like to use 21 the word "epiphany," maybe next week you will 22 have an epiphany and all of a sudden we can 23 collect the cigarette taxes. 24 But, Madam President, I am going to
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(518) 371-8910 1 vote no. And again, I thank you for extending 2 me the courtesy of allowing me to speak. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 4 Senator Skelos to be recorded in the negative. 5 The Secretary will continue to call 6 the roll. 7 THE SECRETARY: Senator Smith. 8 SENATOR SMITH: Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Squadron. 10 SENATOR SQUADRON: To explain my 11 vote, Madam President. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 13 Senator Squadron, to explain his vote. 14 SENATOR SQUADRON: I know the 15 hour is getting late, but I just want to 16 briefly explain the choices that I see before 17 me in my vote tonight. 18 A no vote would be choosing 19 30 percent fare hikes immediately. A yes vote 20 is a fraction of that. A no vote would be 21 devastating service cuts in my district and 22 across the region. A yes vote prevents those 23 completely. 24 A no vote is taking us back to the
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(518) 371-8910 1 1970s, a time when the system started to fall 2 into disrepair and the city started to fall 3 apart for that reason. 4 A yes vote prevents that from 5 happening and allows New York to continue to 6 drive the region, allows the buses and the 7 subways and the transit system, that is unlike 8 any other in this country, to continue to 9 work. 10 A no vote, to me, is clearly easy 11 to talk about for a long time. A yes vote is 12 a critical piece of having a chance to get out 13 of this terrible economy and come out with a 14 city that we can be proud of and a state that 15 can do all the things we all care about. 16 And so that's why I'm choosing to 17 vote yes tonight. 18 Thank you, Madam President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Senator Squadron to be recorded in the 21 affirmative. 22 The Secretary will continue calling 23 the roll. 24 THE SECRETARY: Senator
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(518) 371-8910 1 Stachowski. 2 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes. 3 THE SECRETARY: Senator Stavisky. 4 SENATOR STAVISKY: Yes. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator 6 Stewart-Cousins. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 8 Yes. 9 THE SECRETARY: Senator Thompson. 10 SENATOR THOMPSON: Yes. 11 THE SECRETARY: Senator Valesky. 12 SENATOR VALESKY: Yes. 13 THE SECRETARY: Senator Volker. 14 SENATOR VOLKER: Madam President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 16 Senator Volker, to explain his vote. 17 SENATOR VOLKER: In the spirit of 18 the man who 12 hours ago stood right where you 19 are standing and announced he supported the 20 Republican Party, I vote no. 21 (Laughter.) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Revisionist history already, my goodness. 24 (Laughter.)
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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 2 Senator Volker to be recorded in the negative. 3 The Secretary will continue calling 4 the roll. 5 THE SECRETARY: Senator Winner. 6 SENATOR WINNER: Madam President, 7 very briefly. 8 My opposition to this legislation 9 is predominantly due to the uncoupling of the 10 road and bridge program from the MTA capital 11 plan. And I have not heard, notwithstanding 12 our contention about this uncoupling, as to 13 why it was uncoupled. 14 And there hasn't been any 15 explanation, which lends every bit of 16 credibility to my contention and my assertion 17 earlier in this debate that the reason why 18 it's uncoupled is so you can glom onto the 19 money that would otherwise be available 20 through the revenue sources that you're 21 utilizing for the MTA plan and use it for the 22 MTA and deprive the upstate road and bridge 23 capital plan of those revenues and make it 24 virtually impossible for us to have any kind
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(518) 371-8910 1 of growth in our ability to fund that road and 2 bridge program going forward. 3 I vote no. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 5 Senator Winner to be recorded in the negative. 6 The Secretary will continue to call 7 the roll. 8 THE SECRETARY: Senator Young. 9 SENATOR YOUNG: Thank you, Madam 10 President. To explain my vote. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 Senator Young, to explain her vote. 13 SENATOR YOUNG: Thank you. 14 There seems to be a lot of concern 15 lately from Governor Paterson, Senator Smith, 16 the Senate Democrats about unfunded mandates. 17 This, my friend, this MTA bailout bill that 18 you just forced through this chamber, is the 19 mother of all mandates. It places a very 20 heavy mandate burden on schools, hospitals, 21 charities, local governments. 22 And in fact, it even places a 23 mandate burden through the payroll tax on the 24 farms in the MTA region. And I have to say
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(518) 371-8910 1 I'm very surprised that the chair of the 2 Senate Agriculture Committee, Senator Darrel 3 Aubertine, has not spoken out to support the 4 farmers in the MTA region, because that's his 5 responsibility, is to stand up for all of the 6 farmers in this state. 7 In fact, it's very shocking that 8 all five upstate Democrat Senators -- Senator 9 Valesky, Senator Aubertine, Senator 10 Stachowski, Senator Thompson, Senator 11 Breslin -- are supporting this MTA bailout 12 bill, because this is a direct assault on 13 upstate New York. There's a big fat zero for 14 our roads and bridges. 15 And next year, if this money comes 16 through for the school districts in the MTA 17 region, it will be at the expense, at the 18 expense of our upstate school districts. 19 The Governor, the Senate Democrats 20 have made it very, perfectly clear that they 21 consider upstate New York residents to be 22 second-class citizens. I believe that anybody 23 who voted yes on this bill will be held 24 accountable by the people of this state, and I
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(518) 371-8910 1 vote no. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 Senator Young to be recorded in the negative. 4 The Secretary will announce the 5 results. 6 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 32. Nays, 7 29. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 9 The bill is passed. 10 Senator Smith. 11 SENATOR SMITH: Madam President, 12 is there any further business at the desk? 13 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 14 No, Senator Smith, the desk is clear. 15 SENATOR SMITH: There being none, 16 I move that we adjourn until Monday, May 11th, 17 at 3:00 p.m., intervening days to be 18 legislative days. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 There being no further business to come before 21 the Senate, on motion, the Senate stands 22 adjourned until Monday, May 11th, at 23 3:00 p.m., intervening days being legislative 24 days.
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(518) 371-8910 1 (Whereupon, at 11:15 p.m., the 2 Senate adjourned.) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
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(518) 371-8910
Highest impact first.
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