Monday, June 1, 2009

1 NEW YORK STATE SENATE 2 3 4 THE STENOGRAPHIC RECORD 5 6 7 8 9 ALBANY, NEW YORK 10 June 1, 2009 11 3:32 p.m. 12 13 14 REGULAR SESSION 15 16 17 18 SENATOR DAVID J. VALESKY, Acting President 19 ANGELO J. APONTE, Secretary 20 21 22 23 24

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(518) 371-8910 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 3 Senate will please come to order. 4 I ask everyone present to please 5 rise and recite with me the Pledge of 6 Allegiance. 7 (Whereupon, the assemblage recited 8 the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag.) 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Father 10 Peter G. Young, of Mother Teresa Community 11 here in Albany, is with us this afternoon to 12 provide an invocation. 13 REVEREND YOUNG: Let us pray. 14 As we gather in this June day, may 15 we again think of those that are graduating 16 from college and from high school and all of 17 the talent that they have that You might 18 enable them to assist and be therefore great 19 assets to our community. 20 God, You have given to those 21 members in this community of the Senate many 22 different gifts, but it is always Your spirit 23 that will guide us. There are many different 24 ways of serving as Senators. And we all know

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(518) 371-8910 1 that it's always You, O God, that have granted 2 them to be used for the good of our New York 3 State citizens. 4 God, You have gifted each of these 5 Senators with a unique potential to help their 6 constituents. Let us take a moment to thank 7 God for our talents and our skills in this 8 Senate chamber. 9 God, we thank You for those gifts, 10 and unique to each and every Senator. Let us 11 rejoice in who You have made us and dedicate 12 our gifts to the good of our New York State 13 citizens. 14 Amen. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Thank 16 you, Father. 17 The reading of the Journal. 18 The Secretary will read. 19 THE SECRETARY: In Senate, 20 Friday, May 29, the Senate met pursuant to 21 adjournment. The Journal of Thursday, May 28, 22 was read and approved. On motion, Senate 23 adjourned. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY:

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(518) 371-8910 1 Without objection, the Journal stands approved 2 as read. 3 Presentation of petitions. 4 Messages from the Assembly. 5 Messages from the Governor. 6 Reports of standing committees. 7 Reports of select committees. 8 Communications and reports from 9 state officers. 10 Motions and resolutions. 11 Senator Klein. 12 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. President, 13 are there any substitutions at the desk? 14 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: There 15 are substitutions at the desk. 16 The Secretary will take them up at 17 this time. 18 THE SECRETARY: On page 28, 19 Senator Valesky moves to discharge, from the 20 Committee on Higher Education, Assembly Bill 21 Number 6394, and substitute it for the 22 identical Senate Bill Number 3493, Third 23 Reading Calendar 341. 24 And on page 37, Senator Foley moves

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(518) 371-8910 1 to discharge, from the Committee on Local 2 Government, Assembly Bill Number 5788 and 3 substitute it for the identical Senate Bill 4 Number 2706A, Third Reading Calendar 427. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 6 Substitutions ordered. 7 Senator Klein. 8 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. President, I 9 have several motions. 10 The first is a motion to reconsider 11 substitution and amend a Senate bill. 12 Mr. President, I wish to call up Calendar 13 Number 357, Assembly Print Number 7132. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 15 Secretary will read. 16 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 17 357, by Member of the Assembly Lavine, 18 Assembly Print Number 7132, an act to amend 19 the Estates, Powers and Trusts Law. 20 SENATOR KLEIN: I mow move to 21 move the reconsider the vote by which this 22 Assembly bill was substituted for Senator 23 Sampson's Senate Print Number 3528, on 24 May 27th.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 2 the roll on reconsideration. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 50. 5 SENATOR KLEIN: I now move that 6 Assembly Bill Number 7132 be recommitted to 7 the Committee on Judiciary and the Senate bill 8 be restored to the order of Third Reading 9 Calendar. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 11 bill has been restored to its place on the 12 Third Reading Calendar. 13 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. President, I 14 now offer the following amendments. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 16 amendments are received. 17 Can we have some quiet, please. 18 SENATOR KLEIN: Thank you, 19 Mr. President. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 21 Senator Klein, please continue. 22 SENATOR KLEIN: Amendments are 23 offered to the following Third Reading 24 Calendar bills.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Savino, page number 17, 2 Calendar Number 143, Senate Bill 3445B. 3 On behalf of Senator Adams, page 4 17, Calendar Number 144, Senate Print 3559. 5 On behalf of Senator Parker, page 6 17, Calendar Number 160, Senate Print Number 7 2501A. 8 On behalf of Senator Andrea 9 Stewart-Cousins, page number 34, Calendar 10 Number 393, Senate Print Number 2443A. 11 Mr. President, I now move that 12 these bills retain their place on the order of 13 third reading. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: So 15 ordered. 16 Senator Klein. 17 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. President, 18 can you please call on Senator Libous for some 19 amendments. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 21 Senator Libous. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, 23 Senator Klein. Thank you, Mr. President. 24 Mr. President, on behalf of Senator

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(518) 371-8910 1 Volker, I would call up his bill, Print Number 2 1565, recalled from the Assembly, which is now 3 at the desk. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 5 Secretary will read. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 191, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 1565, an 8 act to amend the Tax Law. 9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I 10 now move to reconsider the vote by which this 11 bill was passed. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 13 Secretary will call the roll on 14 reconsideration. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 54. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 18 bill is before the house and restored to its 19 place on the Third Reading Calendar. 20 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President, I 21 now offer up the following amendments. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 23 amendments are received. 24 Thank you, Senator Libous.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Klein. 2 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. President, 3 may we at this time move to a reading of the 4 calendar. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 6 Secretary will proceed with the reading of 7 Calendar Number 52. 8 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 9 254, by Senator Duane, Senate Print 3911A, an 10 act to amend the Public Health Law, in 11 relation to requiring. 12 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 14 bill is laid aside. 15 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 16 265, by Senator C. Johnson, Senate Print 17 3821B, an act to amend the Arts and -- 18 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 20 bill is laid aside. 21 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 22 311, by Senator Seward, Senate Print 2002, an 23 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 24 extending.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: There 2 is a home-rule message at the desk. 3 Read the last section. 4 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 5 act shall take effect immediately. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 7 the roll. 8 (The Secretary called the roll.) 9 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 312, by Senator Volker, Senate Print 2100, an 14 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 15 extending the expiration. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: There 17 is a home-rule message at the desk. 18 Read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 22 the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 2 bill is passed. 3 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 4 318, by Senator Stachowski, Senate Print 4100, 5 an act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 6 the sales and compensating -- 7 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 9 bill is laid aside. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 323, by Senator Valesky, Senate Print 5120, an 12 act to amend the Tax Law, in relation to 13 extending. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: There 15 is a home-rule message at the desk. 16 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 18 bill is laid aside. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 327, by Member of the Assembly Magnarelli, 21 Assembly Print Number 296, an act to amend the 22 Military Law, in relation to filing fees 23 waiver. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Read

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(518) 371-8910 1 the last section. 2 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 3 act shall take effect immediately. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 5 the roll. 6 (The Secretary called the roll.) 7 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 56. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 9 bill is passed. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 328, by Senator Sampson, Senate Print 2849, an 12 act to amend the Judiciary Law, in relation to 13 emergency relocation. 14 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 16 bill is laid aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 331, by Senator Addabbo, Senate Print 4766, an 19 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law, in 20 relation to increasing. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Read 22 the last section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 24 act shall take --

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 3 bill is laid aside. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 334, by Senator L. Krueger, Senate Print 4147, 6 an act to amend Chapter 436 of the Laws of -- 7 SENATOR KLEIN: Lay the bill 8 aside for the day. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 10 bill is laid aside for the day. 11 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 12 335, by Member of the Assembly Jeffries, 13 Assembly Print Number 4904, an act to amend 14 the Public Service Law, in relation to 15 transfer. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Read 17 the last section. 18 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 19 act shall take effect immediately. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 21 the roll. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 24 bill is laid aside.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 342, by Senator Sampson, Senate Print 61, an 3 act to amend the Labor Law, in relation to 4 prohibiting certain retaliatory personnel 5 actions. 6 SENATOR KLEIN: Lay the bill 7 aside for the day. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 9 bill is laid aside for the day. 10 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 11 348, by Member of the Assembly Ortiz, Assembly 12 Print Number 6532B, an act to amend the 13 Executive Law, in relation to definition. 14 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 16 bill is laid aside. 17 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 18 353, by Member of the Assembly Cusick, 19 Assembly Print Number 2369, an act to amend 20 the General Obligations Law, in relation to a 21 subcontractor's right. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Lay it aside. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 24 bill is laid aside.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Klein, that completes the 2 reading of the noncontroversial calendar. 3 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. President, 4 can we now move to a reading of the 5 controversial calendar. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 7 Secretary will ring the bells. 8 Members are asked to proceed to the 9 Senate chamber so that we may proceed with the 10 controversial bills on today's active list. 11 The Secretary will proceed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 254, by Senator Duane, Senate Print 3911A, an 14 act to amend the Public Health Law. 15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation, 16 please. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Can we 18 have some quiet in the chamber, please. It's 19 a bit difficult to hear. 20 Senator Duane, an explanation of 21 Calendar Number 254 has been requested by 22 Senator Libous. 23 SENATOR DUANE: Thank you, 24 Mr. President.

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(518) 371-8910 1 This legislation would require a 2 hospital with a neonatal intensive care unit 3 to offer a vaccination against the influenza 4 virus. 5 And if the Senator would like a 6 broader explanation, I'd be happy to do it. 7 But maybe that's sufficient. 8 SENATOR LIBOUS: Read the last 9 section. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 11 Secretary will ring the bells. 12 I ask all Senators to proceed to 13 the chamber so that we may move forward with a 14 vote on Calendar Number 254. 15 Read the last section. 16 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 17 act shall take effect on the 120th day. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 19 the roll. 20 (The Secretary called the roll.) 21 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. Nays, 22 0. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 24 bill is passed.

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(518) 371-8910 1 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 2 265, by Senator C. Johnson, Senate Print 3 3821B, an act to amend the Arts and Cultural 4 Affairs Law. 5 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 7 Senator Craig Johnson, an explanation has been 8 requested by Senator Libous. 9 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sure. 10 Thank you, Senator Libous. Thank you, 11 Mr. President. 12 This bill would do a couple of 13 things. One, it would extend the ticket 14 resale law for a 50-week period until May -- 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Excuse 16 me, Senator Johnson. 17 It remains very difficult to hear 18 this afternoon. If we could please have some 19 quiet so that we can hear Senators who are 20 explaining their bills. 21 Proceed. 22 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 23 you, Mr. President. 24 To repeat, the purpose of this bill

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(518) 371-8910 1 is to provide, first, a 50-week extender to a 2 piece of legislation first enacted in 2007 3 relating to the resale of tickets. 4 The bill would also prohibit 5 operators' agents from selling or conveying 6 the tickets to a secondary reseller that they 7 own or control. 8 Furthermore, the bill would also 9 require the disclosure of obstructed-view 10 seats by the operator and promoter. And 11 finally, the bill would also authorize a 12 report by the Department of State on issues 13 relating to the sale and resale of tickets, 14 that report to be issued by February 1, 2010. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 16 Senator Maziarz. 17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 18 Mr. President. Would Senator Johnson yield 19 for many questions? 20 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 21 Senator Johnson, do you yield? 22 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I will 23 yield to Senator Maziarz. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The

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(518) 371-8910 1 sponsor yields. 2 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 3 much for yielding, Senator Johnson. 4 I notice, Senator, that this is a B 5 print. What was the difference between the -- 6 what provisions were changed from the A to the 7 B print? 8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sure. 9 Through you, Mr. President, the A print, which 10 was passed 57 to 3 by this house, was a 11 simple -- was a two-year extender bill. The 12 first change is a reduction of time from two 13 years to one. 14 It also added -- if you have a copy 15 of the bill in front of you, it also adds the 16 provision that were prohibit the operator 17 agent from selling or conveying tickets to any 18 secondary ticket seller owned or controlled by 19 the operator's agent. 20 It also added the obstructed-view 21 provision, and it also added the report 22 provision. These are provisions that came 23 primarily out of the Assembly. 24 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Okay. Thank

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(518) 371-8910 1 you, Senator. 2 I notice in your explanation you 3 said that the -- I think it was the Department 4 of State would be required to do a report on 5 the policy of ticket scalping? 6 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Through 7 you, I will continue to yield. 8 The answer is a report is going to 9 be prepared, under this bill, by the 10 Department of State. 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Through you, 12 Mr. President, if Senator Johnson would 13 continue to yield. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 15 Senator Johnson, do you continue to yield? 16 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 17 course. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 19 sponsor yields. 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: The Department 21 of State, back in 2007, was supposed to do to 22 do that -- a very similar, if I read the -- 23 one of the memos of opposition, and they never 24 completed that.

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(518) 371-8910 1 My question, through you, 2 Mr. President, is this time do we really mean 3 it? Is this time the Department of State 4 really going to do the report? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: You 6 know, through you, Mr. President, obviously 7 this bill -- introduced and passed in 2007 by 8 my colleague from Long Island, Senator 9 Skelos -- included a provision concerning the 10 report. And obviously we need to be more 11 vigilant to make sure a report is produced. 12 That's something that we're going to have to 13 do. And, you know, we're going to have to 14 work hard to make sure that a report is 15 produced. 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you. If 17 Senator Johnson would continue to yield, 18 Mr. President. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 20 Senator Johnson? 21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 22 course. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 24 sponsor continues to yield.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator 2 Johnson, did you hold any hearings on this 3 particular piece of legislation? 4 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: No. 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: There were no 6 hearings held on this particular piece of 7 legislation? 8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'll 9 continue to yield for Senator Maziarz. 10 No. 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you. If 12 Senator Johnson would continue to yield for 13 more questions. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 15 Senator Johnson? 16 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 17 course. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: He 19 continues. 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 21 much, Mr. President. 22 Senator, I notice that the New York 23 Public Interest Research Group, NYPIRG, has 24 issued a memorandum of opposition to this

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(518) 371-8910 1 legislation. Are you familiar with that 2 memorandum of opposition, Senator? 3 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Through 4 you, Mr. President, I believe I have a copy of 5 it, yup. 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: The New York 7 Public Interest Research Group claims in their 8 memorandum of opposition that this legislation 9 is going to hurt the little guy, the parent 10 who wants to take their child, their son or 11 daughter, to a baseball game or to a football 12 game or a hockey game or to the theater or 13 something like that, because what -- through 14 you, Mr. President, to Senator Johnson -- what 15 often happens is these tickets are sold out, 16 you know, by representatives or dealers to the 17 secondary market. And as the time gets closer 18 to the event, the price goes down. 19 And, you know, people who go 20 outside these stadiums -- I know you can see 21 it outside of the former Rich Stadium in Erie 22 County, how tickets will go on sale for a 23 football game for a very cheap price. I 24 haven't bought them myself because I'm afraid

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(518) 371-8910 1 it would be against the law. But, you know, 2 you can get tickets for 10 bucks sometimes. 3 My question -- through you, 4 Mr. President, to Senator Johnson -- is why, 5 according to NYPIRG -- not according to me, 6 but according to NYPIRG -- why are you hurting 7 the little guy? 8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: 9 (Laughing.) Through you, Mr. President. 10 Well, it's fascinating. I'm sure, Senator 11 Maziarz, you were just as concerned a couple 12 of weeks ago when we passed my A print, which 13 was a two-year extender that you voted for. 14 But moving aside the anecdotal 15 evidence, what's interesting is we have 16 interesting evidence regarding tickets and the 17 secondary market when it comes to the 18 comparison. And looking at a lot of 19 concerts -- and, Senator Maziarz, I'll be 20 happy to provide you a copy of this. My 21 office, we will make sure that Senator 22 Maziarz, as well as anyone else who wants 23 this, gets a copy. 24 In running through the several

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(518) 371-8910 1 examples of tickets being on sale -- I'll pull 2 one out for you which was interesting, the 3 Knicks versus the Pacers. The New York 4 Knicks, not doing so well this year. You 5 know, not a team that -- I mean, hopefully in 6 the future they'll get to the playoffs, maybe 7 after they sign LeBron James. 8 But this year the Knicks played the 9 Indiana Pacers on February 23rd, Madison 10 Square Garden. The primary price, $330. Yet 11 on the secondary market, that price was being 12 offered for $131. Same ticket, $199 cheaper. 13 I have loads of examples of where 14 on the secondary market the little guy, who we 15 are all concerned about, was actually able to 16 get a cheaper price for their ticket. No 17 doubt there is anecdotal evidence about 18 instances where people are trying to get a 19 ticket. Let's take Miley Cyrus, for example. 20 Now, I don't have children that are interested 21 in Miley Cyrus but I have friends who do, who 22 desperately want to get Miley Cyrus tickets. 23 But I've got to tell you something. 24 When you try to buy a Miley Cyrus ticket for a

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(518) 371-8910 1 venue of 20,000 people in a metropolitan area 2 of 18 million, you have a tough time getting a 3 Miley Cyrus ticket. And so obviously you have 4 that situation. 5 But I have countless examples of 6 where the secondary market works, that the men 7 and women who want to go purchase a ticket on 8 the secondary market can actually get it 9 cheaper. That it provides a benefit, that 10 provides entertainment, and more importantly, 11 it provides money into the local economy. So 12 it's not just about buying the ticket, it's 13 about buying the soda pop and the hot dogs 14 and, if you go to a game, maybe a T-shirt or a 15 baseball cap. 16 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 17 through you, would Senator Johnson continue to 18 yield? 19 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 20 Senator Johnson, will you continue to yield? 21 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I will 22 continue to yield to my friend Senator 23 Maziarz. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The

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(518) 371-8910 1 sponsor continues. 2 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you. 3 Senator Johnson, do you have any 4 examples of ticket sales from the Buffalo 5 Bills? 6 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Through 7 you, Mr. President, if the Senator would 8 momentarily wait. 9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: You take your 10 time. We have nothing here today but time, 11 Senator Johnson. 12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 13 you, Senator Maziarz. I appreciate that. 14 I have something for the Buffalo 15 Bills, but -- through you, Mr. President, I 16 have something for the Buffalo Bills, with 17 respect to the Jets and the Bills. Now, I 18 will say this. It involves the Bills, but it 19 was at Giants Stadium. 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Excuse me, 21 Mr. President. I'm sorry, could I just offer 22 a clarification? 23 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sure. 24 SENATOR MAZIARZ: You know, you

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(518) 371-8910 1 can give examples in the City of New York or 2 at the Meadowlands or something like that. 3 I'd like to see some examples from, you know, 4 where poor people live, up in, you know, 5 upstate. Buffalo Bills in Buffalo. I'm 6 sorry, I should have said that earlier. A 7 game at Rich Stadium. 8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: At Rich 9 Stadium. 10 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, through 11 you, Mr. President, another clarification. 12 It's not called Rich Stadium anymore. It's 13 now called Ralph Wilson Stadium. But to those 14 of us who were born and raised there, it will 15 always be Rich Stadium. 16 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: You know, 17 Senator Maziarz, regrettably, other than the 18 Jets-Buffalo Bills game down in Giants 19 Stadium -- which I'm sure plenty of Buffalo 20 Bills fans attended, and perhaps many a 21 Buffalo Bills fan who you would deem on their 22 socioeconomic situation. 23 I do not have anything from Ralph 24 Wilson Stadium. But I'm sure we can get those

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(518) 371-8910 1 examples, because I do have pages and pages, 2 pages and pages of examples where the 3 secondary market works. A market which two 4 weeks ago you had no problem voting to extend 5 an additional two years for the bill. 6 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 7 through you, would Senator Johnson continue to 8 yield. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 10 Senator Johnson, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: 12 Absolutely, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 14 sponsor yields. 15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 16 much, Mr. President and Senator Johnson. 17 Senator Johnson, on your list do 18 you have any examples of the Buffalo Sabres, 19 on a game being played in Buffalo? 20 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I do not, 21 Senator Maziarz. 22 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you. 23 Mr. President, through you, would 24 Senator Johnson continue to yield?

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 2 Senator Johnson? 3 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 4 course. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 6 Senator yields. 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator 8 Johnson, did the taxpayers of the State of 9 New York or the City of New York -- I'm sorry, 10 can I just go back one question. 11 On your list, Senator Johnson -- 12 would you continue to yield? I'm sorry. 13 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 14 course, Senator Maziarz. 15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: On your list, 16 do you have any examples outside of New York 17 City or Long Island? 18 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sure. 19 This is actually beyond -- and where it 20 actually takes into account is other areas 21 where people -- who may be from Long Island or 22 Westchester or upstate New York -- may travel 23 outside of the state to purchase tickets. 24 I also have Fenway Park, for

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(518) 371-8910 1 instance. I have the Palace of Auburn Hills. 2 I have areas in Chicago. 3 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Excuse me, 4 Mr. President. Through you, would Senator 5 Johnson continue to yield. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 7 Senator Johnson, do you continue to yield? 8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: You bet. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 10 sponsor yields. 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator 12 Johnson, did I understand you to say we are 13 regulating how tickets are going to be sold at 14 Fenway Park? 15 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: No. No. 16 Because when you buy a ticket on the secondary 17 market, Senator Maziarz, you may buy a ticket 18 from a different state. You can still buy 19 those tickets within New York State. 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Oh, I 21 understand. 22 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'm 23 sorry, Senator Maziarz, with respect to an 24 example outside of the metropolitan area,

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(518) 371-8910 1 other than the areas that I indicated -- the 2 answer is other than the ones I may have 3 indicated which may be outside of Ralph 4 Wilson, I am not aware -- and I don't know 5 what the name of the Buffalo Sabres hockey 6 rink is. 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, it's in 8 Buffalo. 9 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I 10 understand, but I don't know the name. 11 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Oh. 12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I know 13 where it is, but thank you for clarifying 14 that. 15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Well, Mr. 16 President, through you, for Senator Johnson's 17 information, it's called HSBC Arena. 18 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 19 you. Other that, the stadiums and theaters 20 that I have located here primarily deal with 21 major league sporting events. And other 22 than -- so the answer is besides, you know, 23 Fenway Park, like I indicated, or Paul Brown 24 Stadium, which is in Cleveland, which I

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(518) 371-8910 1 believe there are New Yorkers that may travel 2 into Cleveland to catch a game, I am not aware 3 of anything outside of Long Island or New York 4 City in here. 5 But I will clarify it, if I need 6 to, upon a closer examination. 7 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I would very 8 much appreciate that. 9 And would Senator Johnson continue 10 to yield. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 12 Senator Johnson? 13 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 14 course. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 16 sponsor continues. 17 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you very 18 much, Mr. President. 19 Senator Johnson, I would like to 20 ask you -- you know, we're talking about 21 venues now. I sort of want to get into the 22 venues. You know, Madison Square Garden, 23 Nassau Coliseum, Jones Beach Theater, Yankee 24 Stadium, and Citi Field. I'm reading these

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(518) 371-8910 1 off of the NYPIRG opposition memo. 2 Are you aware if any of those 3 venues were either built or significantly 4 remodelled using taxpayer dollars, Senator? 5 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Well, 6 according to NYPIRG -- because I'm looking at 7 the same memo -- NYPIRG claims that the 8 examples that you've cited are either publicly 9 owned or subsidized. I am not entirely sure 10 that Nassau Coliseum is actually publicly 11 financed or subsidized. I believe that's 12 owned privately, I believe -- or it's operated 13 privately. So I clarify that. 14 SENATOR MAZIARZ: I'm sorry, 15 which one was owned privately? 16 : I believe it's operated, so 17 I strike what I was saying about Nassau 18 Coliseum. 19 But according to the NYPIRG memo 20 that you're reading, according to them, they 21 claim that Yankee Stadium, Citi Field and the 22 others that you mentioned were either publicly 23 owned or subsidized. 24 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President,

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(518) 371-8910 1 if, through you, Senator Johnson would 2 continue to yield. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 4 Senator Johnson, do you continue to yield? 5 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Yes, I 6 do. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 8 sponsor yields. 9 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Senator 10 Johnson, do you think just in your opinion 11 that NYPIRG would give us misinformation? 12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'm 13 sorry, you'll have to repeat that question, I 14 apologize. 15 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Through you 16 Mr. President, I said do you think NYPIRG 17 would give us misinformation in a memo? 18 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I think 19 there are times when NYPIRG is cited by this 20 side of the aisle that have been rejected by 21 your side of the aisle. 22 Mr. President, just -- what I'm not 23 sure about is, with respect to what Senator 24 Maziarz is referring to on the "NYPIRG

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(518) 371-8910 1 Opposes," I don't know if that's referring to 2 the A print or the B print. Because what's 3 very clear in looking at -- it's referring to 4 my 3821. Right now we're dealing with 3821B. 5 I think NYPIRG, though, if they're 6 going to give this information, probably would 7 also clarify, because I think they do this in 8 the past, they indicate by As and Bs and Cs. 9 So I don't know if NYPIRG is opposing to my 10 original one -- which passed, again, through 11 your support -- or the B print. 12 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 13 through you. Senator Johnson, I don't know if 14 perhaps NYPIRG keeps me better informed than 15 they keep you informed, but my memo of 16 opposition clearly states 3821B. There's a 17 letter B right there. 18 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Okay, I 19 yield. I just have 3821. But that's fine. 20 SENATOR MAZIARZ: So NYPIRG, for 21 the record, NYPIRG is opposed to 37821B. 22 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: That 23 means, Mr. President, that means that NYPIRG 24 was probably opposed to 3821. Which, Senator

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(518) 371-8910 1 Maziarz, you voted for. 2 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Mr. President, 3 on the bill. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 5 Senator Maziarz, on the bill. 6 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 7 you, Senator Maziarz, for the dialogue. 8 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, 9 Senator Johnson. 10 Mr. President, according to NYPIRG, 11 this bill is going to hurt, you know, a parent 12 what wants to take their children to a 13 sporting event, maybe buy their tickets on the 14 secondary market. I know that my colleagues 15 from Buffalo are well aware of people who 16 stand out in front of HSBC Arena and Ralph 17 Wilson Stadium now -- I keep wanting to call 18 it Rich Stadium -- that sell tickets at a very 19 cheap price, particularly, you know, just 20 before the sporting event is taking place. 21 I would have to tell you, Senator, 22 I thought maybe -- you've pointed out many 23 times that I voted for the A print of this 24 bill. And I did do that. And then you

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(518) 371-8910 1 changed the bill and I think, according to 2 NYPIRG, made it even worse. 3 So I'm going to be, when we do the 4 roll call, voting in the negative on this 5 bill. 6 Thank you, Mr. President. And 7 thank you for your time, Senator Johnson. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Thank 9 you, Senator Maziarz. 10 Senator Robach. 11 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, on the 12 bill, Mr. President. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 14 Senator Robach, on the bill. 15 SENATOR ROBACH: I enjoyed the 16 dialogue. And, you know, this is an issue 17 that's been around for a long time, and I've 18 supported it. But again, you know, the logic 19 always was that there would be some 20 recommendations to make this bigger, better 21 and I think -- I guess the word I'm looking 22 for is more consumer-friendly. 23 And so despite the -- or in 24 addition to the opposition from NYPIRG, in

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(518) 371-8910 1 this two-week time window since we've talked 2 about this, one of our colleagues in the 3 Assembly, Richard Brodsky, has traveled around 4 the state, there's been editorials on why not 5 cap the maximum amount of profit on a 6 secondary ticket at 25 percent above the cost. 7 I think that makes all the sense in the world. 8 And all kidding aside, what's 9 making me change my vote is I've got a lot of 10 letters now from people who are paying 11 attention to this issue a little bit more. 12 And, you know, whether it's "Disney on Ice" or 13 even there was a show, "Hannah Montana" kid 14 shows, they were selling the tickets for 11 15 times the face value of the ticket. 16 When you're going to have that, 17 that's only going to allow fairly wealthy 18 people to go to shows. And when people 19 learn -- at least some people are indicating 20 to me in their correspondence, citizens -- 21 that a show is going to sell out, we have 22 people go get those tickets so they can sell 23 them on a secondary market. 24 I think a extender, a great

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(518) 371-8910 1 recommendation from this commission that was 2 supposed to study it would have been to put a 3 cap on it of 25 percent or some reasonable 4 number above the cost. You would be paying 5 for the convenience, but you wouldn't be 6 outpricing people and events. 7 And whether it's sporting events or 8 something else, maybe I'm getting sentimental 9 in my old age, but for things with kids or 10 with -- if you have five kids, who's going to 11 be able to afford tickets at 5, 6, 7 percent 12 above the -- 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 14 Senator Squadron, why do you rise? 15 SENATOR SQUADRON: Would Senator 16 Robach yield to a question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 18 Senator Robach? 19 SENATOR ROBACH: One second. I'm 20 really almost done. I'm not denying you at 21 all. 22 The cost for sporting events, which 23 I'm interested in, have taken my own children, 24 whether it's been the WNBA games with my

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(518) 371-8910 1 daughters, professional baseball or football 2 games with my son, I think the regular face 3 value is pretty, pretty high already. But I 4 think to add on, just because you're going to 5 the secondary market, being able to mark that 6 up unlimitedly -- while you don't have to buy 7 them, I think we should be a little more 8 consumer-friendly. 9 So for that reason, I'm going to 10 vote no this go-round. And I hope, if it does 11 pass, that this commission will look at 12 putting some kind of cap on what people can 13 charge in the secondary market. We have a 14 whole group of other people making money off 15 this, not the people that put the show on or 16 anything else. 17 I'm sorry for the delay. I happily 18 await Senator Squadron's question. 19 SENATOR SQUADRON: Mr. President, 20 through you, I'd like to apologize to Senator 21 Robach for standing before he was completed. 22 But would he yield for a question? 23 SENATOR ROBACH: Yes, sir. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY:

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Robach yields. 2 SENATOR SQUADRON: Thank you very 3 much. Senator Robach, I believe -- through 4 you, Mr. President -- that Senator Robach did 5 vote for the previous version of this 6 legislation. 7 SENATOR ROBACH: I voted for it 8 twice. I said that when I started, if you 9 were paying attention. 10 SENATOR SQUADRON: And so through 11 you, Mr. President -- paying attention as 12 closely as I'm able -- I'd just like to ask 13 Senator Robach, is this legislation a 14 fundamentally worse piece of legislation 15 because it's shorter or because there's a 16 report in order to really figure out what's 17 wrong with this system? 18 And before I ask, I'd like to just 19 say that I stipulate I in fact sponsor a piece 20 of legislation that would put a cap on the 21 reselling. So I share many of the concerns 22 Senator Robach brought up today. And I think 23 this bill is a significantly better one than 24 the one that passed with 59 votes in this

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(518) 371-8910 1 house a couple of weeks ago. 2 SENATOR ROBACH: Simply, you know 3 what happened? I think because of Assemblyman 4 Brodsky -- through you, Mr. President. 5 Through Assemblyman Brodsky's efforts, which I 6 applaud, and people talking about other 7 options, I've gotten a lot more correspondence 8 from my constituents. And so that's what's 9 motivated me to change my mind, because I 10 think they raised some valid issues that with 11 just putting a cap on this I think would 12 alleviate it. 13 Some people don't want it to be 14 anything, they want it to be face value. I 15 understand they have a secondary market. 16 There has to be some profit margin in there. 17 I just think we could limit it. And I think 18 it's an easy and good solution. I wish we 19 could have done it two years ago. We didn't. 20 I did vote for that extender. I did vote for 21 it another time. 22 But I still think, in light of the 23 correspondence I've received from my 24 constituents, in addition to NYPIRG and other

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(518) 371-8910 1 groups that think there's no controls over it, 2 I'm going to vote no now and talk about this, 3 with the hope that when this commission is 4 convened, if everyone on that side of the 5 aisle is going to vote yes, they might make 6 those recommendations in the future. 7 Because I do think it would make it 8 better and much, much more consumer-friendly 9 for everybody, but especially families or if 10 you want to go to that special event. 11 SENATOR SQUADRON: I thank 12 Senator Robach. 13 On the bill. 14 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 15 Senator Squadron, on the bill. 16 SENATOR SQUADRON: You know, 17 there's a whole lot of concerns about the way 18 ticket reselling is happening now. I spoke 19 about them -- in fact, I think I was the only 20 member of this body to speak about them two 21 weeks ago when the previous version of this 22 bill passed 59 to 3. 23 This is a better bill. And in a 24 moment when it seemed almost impossible to

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(518) 371-8910 1 pass a bill that would fundamentally change 2 this system, certainly improving the bill by 3 making it a shorter extender, making it 4 something we need to address again in this 5 term before we go and stand for election 6 again, before we go to all those Miley Cyrus 7 fans and Bruce Springsteen fans and New York 8 State Jets fans, Buffalo Bills fans -- before 9 we face them again, we need to address this 10 issue. And we're going to do it with a report 11 under our belt that will tell us exactly where 12 the problems are and exactly how to solve 13 them. 14 And so I'm quite pleased that we've 15 improved it in that way, although I'd like to 16 say that the interest in the bill that I carry 17 that I think continues to be before this house 18 is one that I'm pleased to hear today, and I 19 hope that we're going to be able to move 20 forward with the best way to protect 21 theatergoers and sportsgoers -- 22 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 23 Senator Winner, why do you rise? 24 SENATOR WINNER: I was wondering

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(518) 371-8910 1 if Senator Squadron would yield to a question. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 3 Senator Squadron, do you yield to Senator 4 Winner? 5 SENATOR SQUADRON: I'd be happy 6 to. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 8 Senator yields. 9 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you, 10 Mr. President. 11 Senator Squadron, you indicated 12 that you have another bill on the calendar. I 13 think it's Calendar Number 422? 14 SENATOR SQUADRON: Through you, 15 Mr. President, I do another bill on the 16 calendar. I'm not sure what the calendar 17 number is, but I'm sure Senator Winner does 18 know. 19 SENATOR WINNER: It's a bill, 20 basically a companion bill to Assemblyman 21 Brodsky's bill? 22 SENATOR SQUADRON: Through you, 23 Mr. President, it was introduced as a same-as 24 bill to the one carried by Assemblyman Brodsky

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(518) 371-8910 1 in the other house. 2 SENATOR WINNER: Will the Senator 3 yield to another question? 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 5 Senator Squadron, do you continue to yield? 6 SENATOR SQUADRON: I'd be happy 7 to. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 9 Senator yields. 10 SENATOR WINNER: Senator, your 11 bill was referred to the Investigations 12 Committee, of which I'm the ranking member. 13 And the time it was on the agenda for the 14 committee agenda, that bill was held and not 15 taken up. How did it get on the calendar? 16 SENATOR SQUADRON: Through you, 17 Mr. President, I believe that bill was passed 18 through the Rules Committee last week. 19 SENATOR WINNER: Will the Senator 20 yield to a question? 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 22 Senator, do you continue to yield? 23 SENATOR SQUADRON: I'd be happy 24 to.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 2 Senator yields. 3 SENATOR WINNER: Senator, in 4 other words, in the spirit of the great reform 5 here, you bypassed the committee structure to 6 yank that bill out onto the calendar? 7 SENATOR SQUADRON: Through you, 8 Mr. President, I don't actually think the word 9 "yanked" is appropriate. Nor do I think, as I 10 said before, that "the great reform" is 11 actually appropriate. 12 There's no question that this house 13 is moving to reform how it does things. And 14 as you know, Senator Winner, I think as many 15 of my colleagues know, I don't think we've 16 gone all the way there by any means. We are 17 certainly starting with reforms. 18 And to answer your question, I 19 think all I can say again is it was passed 20 through the Rules Committee publicly last 21 week. 22 SENATOR WINNER: Will the Senator 23 yield to another question? 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY:

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Squadron, do you continue to yield? 2 SENATOR SQUADRON: I'd be happy 3 to. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 5 Senator yields. 6 SENATOR WINNER: Senator 7 Squadron, I don't think I really quite 8 understood the answer to the question. I 9 think the question was, why did you bypass the 10 committee structure to have the bill brought 11 through the Rules Committee? 12 SENATOR SQUADRON: Through you, 13 Mr. President, there's a whole lot of reasons 14 that I'd be happy to discuss about why I 15 support this bill and what's going on. I'm 16 not sure that the function of the Rules 17 Committee, which is a longstanding role of 18 this house, is germane to the discussion we're 19 having. 20 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you. I 21 got the answer. Thank you. 22 SENATOR SQUADRON: Thank you very 23 much. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY:

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Marcellino. 2 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 3 Mr. President. 4 During the discussion, we've heard 5 reference to various memos from NYPIRG in 6 opposition, whether it be on the original 7 bill, 3821, or the 3821B version which we are 8 discussing today. Just for the record, I 9 voted for the first version of this bill a 10 couple of weeks back. 11 But I think it's important at this 12 moment that we discuss and we hear the 13 opposition memo written by NYPIRG, because it 14 raises certain points and it raises certain 15 questions which I think need to be responded 16 to before we go through this debate any 17 further. 18 It says here: "Statement of 19 Opposition." And I'm reading from the memo 20 from NYPIRG, which says "NYPIRG Opposes 21 S3921-B, Statement of Opposition. New York 22 had an anti-ticket scalping law from 1920 to 23 2007. 24 "That law protected moderate-income

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(518) 371-8910 1 families and other consumers who wanted to 2 attend sports, theater, music and other 3 entertainment events by outlawing unlimited 4 markups by scalpers who had no hand in 5 creating or producing the events. 6 "The law also protected the 7 athletes, sports teams, actors, musicians and 8 their investors from others making profit from 9 their labor. 10 "In 2007, without the benefit of a 11 report on the issue that was required to be 12 issued by the state's Consumer Protection 13 Board by the end of 2006, and without a public 14 hearing, the Legislature passed and Governor 15 Spitzer signed legislation that suspended the 16 state's longstanding antiscalping law for two 17 years. 18 "There are two major problems with 19 this bill. First, the bill would extend the 20 current experiment with allowing unlimited 21 markups to secondary ticket sales while a 22 study is performed. The burden is on the 23 ticket scalpers to show a public benefit over 24 the past two years of unlimited ticket

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(518) 371-8910 1 scalping, a burden scalping proponents have 2 not met. 3 "Second, the Secretary of State is 4 charged with issuing a report on scalping. 5 The Attorney General was charged with the task 6 in the previous version of this legislation, 7 based on the AG's experience with the issue 8 and track record for investigations and 9 reviews. In contrast, the Department of State 10 has no relevant experience with this issue and 11 is not primarily an investigative or 12 enforcement agency." 13 In bold print: "It's outrageous 14 that the New York taxpayers who pay to build, 15 maintain, and subsidize venues like Yankee 16 Stadium, Citi Field, Jones Beach Theater, 17 Nassau Coliseum, Madison Square Garden, Times 18 Union Center, SPAC, et cetera, often cannot 19 afford tickets for good seats to events at 20 these very buildings as a result of scalping. 21 "Unless and until a thorough 22 evaluation of current scalping practices is 23 performed, the Attorney General's 1999 report, 24 "Why Can't I Get Tickets?" which showed

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(518) 371-8910 1 widespread ticket diversion, commercial 2 bribery and tax evasion, stands as the 3 definitive analysis of the ticket sales 4 marketplace. 5 "And accordingly, NYPIRG urges 6 everyone to oppose this legislation." 7 Mr. President, will the sponsor 8 please yield for a question? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 10 Senator Johnson, do you yield to a question 11 from Senator Marcellino? 12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Senator 13 Marcellino, my good friend, I will be happy 14 to. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 16 sponsor yields. 17 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 18 my good friend. 19 The two questions raised by 20 NYPIRG -- first, that the bill would extend 21 the current experiment, which allows unlimited 22 markups, the suggestion has been made here, 23 Senator, that the average citizen can't get 24 tickets because the scalpers buy them when

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(518) 371-8910 1 they go on sale, and they're selling them at 2 many times the price. So the average family 3 can't get access to these events. 4 How does your bill help that? 5 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 6 you. And through you, Mr. President, I'll be 7 happy to share with you and to all members of 8 the Minority the same data that we've 9 accumulated with respect to the claim -- and I 10 believe erroneous claim -- that somehow the 11 secondary market is marking up. 12 I have countless examples -- and 13 while it may not have had the exact area for 14 Senator Maziarz, for you, Senator Marcellino, 15 as someone who, like myself, represents Long 16 Island, I have countless instances of tickets 17 sold at the primary market, when sold on the 18 secondary market, substantial reductions. At 19 Citi Field, at Madison Square Garden, at 20 Nassau Coliseum. The list goes on and on and 21 on and on. 22 What's interesting in NYPIRG's 23 fascinating memo is they cite anecdotal 24 evidence. I don't see the actual factual

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(518) 371-8910 1 evidence. I'll be happy to share it with you. 2 I'll pull one out right now. Let's talk 3 about, let's see -- well, I gave you my 4 Knicks-Pacers example. We could do the 5 Islanders-Rangers, the December 31st game at 6 New Year's Eve in Nassau Coliseum, where a $50 7 ticket was sold at a reduced price of $35. 8 I'll go on. The secondary -- the 9 free market, the free market is working. And 10 again, what's fascinating is NYPIRG's 11 opposition two weeks ago is the same 12 opposition you ignored -- except for Frank 13 Padavan, credit to him, he did oppose the 14 bill. I won't single out Senator Padavan. 15 You opposed the bill. 16 But the same opposition you ignored 17 now all of a sudden it's Eureka, we have 18 figured out -- and Senator Squadron and 19 Senator Krueger also ignored it, on my side. 20 But Senator Squadron has come around. Because 21 why? Because we revised the bill and put in 22 protections. 23 Protections, by the way -- this 24 claim that the last piece of legislation

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(518) 371-8910 1 contained a report? There was no reporting 2 requirement. This is new. This is new. We 3 are improving it and cutting down the time to 4 require people to come back. And we're 5 putting a report requirement to come back in 6 February. 7 And so we're going to have to be 8 vigilant. And I know Senator Squadron will be 9 vigilant. I know you, Senator Marcellino. I 10 know Senator Maziarz will be just as vigilant. 11 But the fact is is that what we see by example 12 and by fact is the anecdotal evidence shows 13 that the secondary market is working, it's 14 working, and it's working. 15 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator, 16 would you yield for another question? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 18 Senator Johnson, do you continue? 19 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 20 course. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 22 sponsor yields. 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Senator 24 Johnson, what you're suggesting is that

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(518) 371-8910 1 scalpers are buying tickets and selling them 2 under market value. So they're going to lose 3 money? 4 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Is that 5 the question? 6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes. 7 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: What I'm 8 suggesting is the anecdotal evidence that we 9 have found is that the members on the 10 secondary market are paying for less than the 11 face value than what was being offered on the 12 primary market. 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: With due 14 respect -- through you, Mr. President -- to my 15 colleague, if he would continue to yield. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 17 Senator Johnson, do you continue to yield? 18 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Yes. Of 19 course. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 21 sponsor continues. 22 SENATOR MARCELLINO: My question 23 was, are the scalpers buying the tickets at a 24 price and then selling them under the price

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(518) 371-8910 1 they purchased? In other words, they're 2 losing money? 3 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Again, 4 let me repeat. What the evidence shows, what 5 my document shows that I'll be happy to 6 provide you, is there is a face value for a 7 ticket. Again, New York Knicks selling a $330 8 ticket. They are turning around and selling 9 that ticket, which normally would have been 10 bought from Madison Square Garden at $330, 11 they're selling it to some other consumer at a 12 much lower value. It's almost like a stock. 13 Sometimes stocks go up, sometimes stocks go 14 down, based upon potentially the popularity of 15 the venue. 16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: If the 17 Senator would continue to yield. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 19 Senator Johnson? 20 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 21 course, yes. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 23 Senator continues to yield. 24 SENATOR MARCELLINO: The bill

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(518) 371-8910 1 that I and others voted for, what was the vote 2 that that bill passed by? 3 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Through 4 you, Mr. President, I believe it was 59 to 3. 5 Senator Padavan, Senator Liz Krueger, and 6 Senator Dan Squadron opposing the bill. 7 SENATOR MARCELLINO: So members 8 on your side of the aisle as well as my side 9 of the aisle voted similarly? 10 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Correct. 11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Through you, 12 Mr. President, would the Senator continue to 13 yield? 14 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 15 course. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 17 Senator Johnson continues to yield. 18 SENATOR MARCELLINO: It was my 19 understanding that that bill was passed 20 initially for this one-time experiment, that 21 this was not supposed to go on forever, this 22 bill. There was supposed to be a report 23 issued, and a report was supposed to be given 24 to us tell us whether this was going to work

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(518) 371-8910 1 or not. This was an experiment, not a 2 permanent fixture. Am I wrong? 3 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Through 4 you, Mr. President, I never want to say you're 5 wrong, Senator Marcellino. I have too much 6 respect for you. Let me correct your 7 interpretation. 8 The original A print was a two-year 9 extender of a bill of a law originally enacted 10 by our colleague, your leader, Senator Skelos. 11 It was simply a two-year extender to extend 12 the time, and that was it. That was it. 13 What you have today, because of 14 issues that have been raised in the other 15 house and as well as by my colleague Senator 16 Squadron, what you have today is a compromise 17 where we've extended out the time by 50 weeks, 18 this law, as well as put in some 19 requirements -- in particular, this reporting 20 requirement that a report is going to be 21 produced with respect to sale and resale of 22 the tickets. 23 It's a very good compromise, one 24 that I would urge all our colleagues to get on

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(518) 371-8910 1 board with. Because come February, we will 2 have a more definitive report to see what's 3 going on, plus time to address if there are 4 problems. Or, if there are not, to address 5 whether or not to extend the law further. 6 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Thank you, 7 Mr. President. On the bill. 8 Thank you, Senator. 9 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 10 you, Senator Marcellino. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 12 Senator Marcellino, on the bill. 13 SENATOR MARCELLINO: It has been 14 my experience in talking to people -- and I'd 15 be interested in seeing the Senator's report 16 and where he got his information and the facts 17 and figures on this. But in talking to people 18 on the street who try to go to an event, if 19 you can't get the ticket in the initial 20 purchase because the scalpers have purchased 21 up a lot of them -- and they're not in the 22 business of losing money. They're in the 23 business of making money. 24 So for an event that is really

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(518) 371-8910 1 popular, you're basically freezing out the 2 average citizen. The average family is not 3 getting into these events. Those events that 4 are popular where people want to go there, 5 they're not getting there. Fifty weeks. 6 A report has to be done. Some 7 study has to be done. The chairman of the 8 Investigations Committee, my colleague, could 9 well have done this, should have, in my mind, 10 done this as a service and issued a report 11 himself as a committee, should have issued a 12 report on this thing of the committee, and let 13 us know what's going on here. 14 We need to know the facts on this 15 bill. And until we do -- and I don't often do 16 this -- I'm going to agree with NYPIRG, 17 because I think they're correct. 18 I think the taxpayers are getting 19 the shaft on this one and they're not getting 20 their fair share. They're paying the bills, 21 they're paying for these venues, they're 22 supporting these teams to keep them in their 23 areas, yet the average citizen is not able to 24 get in. They're just not able to get in.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Unless you are a major corporation who can 2 afford to buy $2,000 tickets and $2,000 seats, 3 you have a problem. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 5 Senator Stachowski, why do you rise? 6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: I would like 7 to have Senator Marcellino yield for a 8 question. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 10 Senator Marcellino, do you yield? 11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, I would 12 yield to Senator Stachowski. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 14 Senator Marcellino yields. 15 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Through you, 16 Mr. President. Senator Marcellino, do you 17 believe that if this went out of existence, 18 the secondary market, that there would no 19 longer be scalpers that bought tickets in bulk 20 form at every possible opportunity for what 21 they conceive as the popular games for 22 sporting teams and then would proceed to sell 23 them at even a more exorbitant rate, with 24 nobody -- even though it's illegal -- with

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(518) 371-8910 1 nobody overseeing it? 2 Do you believe that's true, that if 3 this bill goes out of effect there will be no 4 secondary market? 5 SENATOR MARCELLINO: No, I don't 6 for a second believe that that's true, 7 Senator. I agree with you. There are illegal 8 activities, and certain people will do illegal 9 things no matter what you do. 10 What I'm suggesting, however, is 11 this bill doesn't fix that problem. This bill 12 extends it. This bill gives it more time. 13 And I don't see the report. I think the 14 report could have been and should have been 15 done. And I think we need to know. And I 16 don't think the Department of State is the 17 agency to do that. The Attorney General's 18 office is much better equipped to do that kind 19 of an investigation and to do that 20 enforcement. 21 I agree, I think I know where 22 you're going, Senator, and I agree with you, 23 because your background is a good one in the 24 sports field, and I respect you for your

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(518) 371-8910 1 experience in the sports area and that arena. 2 We need to protect the taxpayer and we need to 3 protect the viewing public from the scalper 4 who's taking advantage. And this bill doesn't 5 do that, in my mind. 6 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Mr. 7 President, would the Senator please continue 8 to yield? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 10 Senator Marcellino, do you continue to yield? 11 SENATOR MARCELLINO: It will be 12 my pleasure. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 14 Senator yields. 15 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Senator, are 16 you also aware that because of this bill the 17 law that we're currently trying to extend, 18 teams like the Bills now have a policy where 19 if you know ahead of time you're not going to 20 use your tickets, you can let them know and 21 they will then sell them for you and you get a 22 credit to your account and they sell them at 23 face value? Are you aware of that? 24 And that would have never happened

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(518) 371-8910 1 in the old days. But due to this law, that 2 happens currently. And the Sabres also have 3 that kind of policy. I don't know about other 4 sports teams, but I know Senator Maziarz was 5 interested in Buffalo teams. So I can only 6 give you the two Buffalo teams, major sport 7 teams, that they now, because of this law, 8 have a policy that for season ticketholders, 9 if they know a week or two ahead of time that 10 they're going to be out of town, they can let 11 the Sabres know or the Bills know, and then 12 they will then sell their tickets at face 13 value to fans that otherwise couldn't get the 14 seat. And that wouldn't be possible if this 15 law expires. 16 SENATOR MARCELLINO: Yes, 17 Mr. President, through you, I am, Senator 18 Stachowski, aware of what you're saying. 19 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Thank you, 20 Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Thank 22 you, Senator Stachowski. 23 SENATOR MARCELLINO: I'm 24 finished.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Thank 2 you, Senator Marcellino. 3 Are there any other Senators who 4 wish to be heard? 5 Senator Winner. 6 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you, 7 Mr. President. Will Senator Johnson yield to 8 a question or two? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 10 Senator Craig Johnson, do you yield? 11 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Sure, 12 Senator. Of course, for my colleague. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 14 sponsor yields. 15 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you. Mr. 16 President, through you. Senator Johnson, 17 excuse me if this has been asked before, but 18 this bill is different than that which passed 19 through our committee. And therefore, I'd 20 like to have you clarify for me and for the 21 members what the meaning of Section 2 on page 22 1 of the bill is and whether it relates to any 23 specific example that you're trying to get at. 24 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Section

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(518) 371-8910 1 2, which prohibits the operator's agent from 2 selling or conveying tickets to any secondary 3 ticket reseller owned or controlled by the 4 operator's agent. So I think it's 5 self-explanatory. What exactly are you 6 looking -- that's new. What are you exactly 7 looking to get clarified? 8 SENATOR WINNER: Mr. President, 9 through you. Senator Johnson, what I'm trying 10 to get is you said it's new. Why is it in 11 there? 12 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: This was 13 a request by the Assembly during the process. 14 And we saw no objection to it. And in order 15 to ensure that we were able to extend out a 16 law -- I will say a good law that was drafted 17 and sponsored by Senator Skelos, your 18 leader -- we included this provision in an 19 effort to compromise to get the extender for 20 an additional year. 21 SENATOR WINNER: Mr. President, 22 through you. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 24 Senator Johnson?

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Yes, I 2 yield. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 4 Senator Johnson continues to yield. 5 SENATOR WINNER: Well, again, 6 your statement then and your representation to 7 us on the floor is that this section for which 8 you have assented to the Assembly for its 9 addition doesn't have any meaning for you as 10 far as any specific purpose. 11 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: To give 12 an example, Madison Square Garden, purely as 13 an example, can't own a secondary market to 14 resell the tickets. If that's what you're 15 trying to understand what this section does. 16 Because Madison Square Garden, obviously, for 17 the Rangers and for the Knicks, sell their own 18 tickets. So they can't own a StubHub or any 19 other type of secondary seller. 20 SENATOR WINNER: Mr. President, 21 through you, if Senator Johnson would continue 22 to yield. 23 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Of 24 course.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR WINNER: I have heard 2 somewhere through the grapevine that perhaps 3 this was trying to get at a circumstance where 4 there was a concert that Ticketmaster had a 5 relationship with a reseller -- I think it was 6 a Springsteen concert -- and that there was 7 some transfer of the authority from 8 Ticketmaster to some other entity that was 9 purported to be owned by Ticketmaster to 10 restrict the sales of those tickets in those 11 types of circumstances. Does that make any 12 sense to you? 13 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'm not 14 aware of that particular grapevine, Senator 15 Winner. 16 SENATOR WINNER: Okay. Well, 17 that's good. So I just wanted to clarify 18 whether or not there were any real specific 19 pictures on Section 2 in the bill. 20 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Through 21 you, Mr. President, of course yielding, I am 22 not aware of it, Senator Winner. 23 SENATOR WINNER: Okay. Thank 24 you, Mr. President.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank 2 you, Senator Winner. 3 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Thank 4 you, Senator Winner. Thank you, Senator 5 Johnson. 6 The Secretary will ring the bells. 7 The debate is closed. 8 The Secretary will read the last 9 section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 16 Senator LaValle, to explain his vote. 17 SENATOR LaVALLE: Mr. President, 18 this bill being a free-market bill, it was 19 very interesting to see that our colleague 20 Senator Johnson is sponsoring this. 21 (Laughter.) 22 SENATOR LaVALLE: That is C. 23 Johnson. 24 But I wanted to believe -- if you

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(518) 371-8910 1 talk to any of my constituents, they would 2 tell you that this bill will not lower their 3 rates. 4 Now, with the exception of -- and 5 I'm a Knicks fan -- the New York Knicks, where 6 you probably can give tickets away, or 7 couldn't give tickets away. 8 (Laughter.) 9 SENATOR LaVALLE: And that was 10 one of the examples that was used about a 11 lower rate. 12 So I'm going to -- I think this is 13 a bad bill for constituents. I'm going to 14 vote in the negative. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 16 Senator LaValle to be recorded in the 17 negative. 18 Senator Squadron, to explain his 19 vote. 20 SENATOR SQUADRON: Thank you, 21 Mr. President. 22 I spoke a little bit during the 23 debate about the fact that I don't think this 24 is an ideal bill. I have many concerns about

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(518) 371-8910 1 the current system as it's in place. I am 2 eager to get the report and next year come 3 together and pass a much better system. 4 And in fact, I'm incredibly 5 heartened today, because all indications have 6 been that there were very few folks on the 7 other side of the aisle, slightly more on this 8 side, who are were as concerned as I was. 9 Today I am seeing that so many folks, folks 10 who voted against this in the Rules Committee, 11 folks who expressed grave concerns about it 12 who were on the Investigations Committee, 13 which is where it was originally referred, are 14 now seeing all of the concerns with what 15 happens. 16 And so I'm very, very hopeful that 17 in this session before we stand for election 18 again, we will be able to create a much better 19 system. And hopefully this report and today's 20 debate will move us toward that. 21 So I am voting in the affirmative 22 with the hope that we can do better in the 23 future. Thank you. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY:

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Squadron to be recorded in the 2 affirmative. 3 Senator Maziarz, you wish to 4 explain your vote? 5 SENATOR MAZIARZ: Thank you, Mr. 6 President, to explain my vote. 7 Mr. President, I'm a little bit 8 surprised that some of my colleagues are going 9 to vote against NYPIRG today. 10 I am going to vote in agreement 11 with NYPIRG today. I fully expect that that 12 means that next week Senator Schneiderman is 13 going to vote with the NRA and that things 14 will really be surprising around here. 15 I vote in the negative, 16 Mr. President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 18 Senator Maziarz to be recorded in the 19 negative. 20 Senator Craig Johnson, to explain 21 his vote. 22 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: Thank you 23 very much, Mr. President. Of course, I thank 24 my colleagues who engaged in a very

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(518) 371-8910 1 interesting discussion and an important 2 discussion here in the New York State Senate. 3 I've seen some quite ironic things 4 in my very short tenure here in the State 5 Senate. But here this bill is trying to 6 extend out for a short period of time a piece 7 of landmark legislation that was drafted and 8 sponsored and put forth by the Minority 9 Leader, Senator Skelos. Then, two weeks ago, 10 we put forth a simple two-year extender that 11 everybody but Frank Padavan in the Minority 12 supported, over the objections of NYPIRG. 13 Today, where we actually put in a 14 shorter extender, with some provisions that, 15 as my good friend Senator Squadron, the 16 coprime sponsor of this legislation, talks 17 about being important to raising some issues 18 and furthering a dialogue, all of a sudden 19 Eureka, here's the NYPIRG memo: My goodness, 20 what are we doing. 21 Look, I hear you. I appreciate 22 your position. But you first voted against 23 NYPIRG, and today you're voting with NYPIRG. 24 I think let's be genuine -- except for Frank

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(518) 371-8910 1 Padavan, except for Senator Padavan, who 2 opposed the bill originally. I want to make 3 the record clear. 4 But let's be honest here. The 5 evidence, the empirical evidence shows that 6 tickets are able in the secondary market to be 7 a lot loss. And numerous examples, whether 8 it's the Knicks, the Islanders, the Rangers, 9 other locations in the area. 10 So good piece of legislation. 11 Needs to be improved upon, Senator Squadron. 12 The report is going to be issued in February 13 and hopefully we'll have it. It will be the 14 first time, because the last law had no 15 report. 16 SENATOR LIBOUS: Mr. President -- 17 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: So here 18 we're doing something -- 19 SENATOR LIBOUS: Excuse me, 20 Mr. President. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 22 Senator Libous, why do you rise? 23 SENATOR LIBOUS: Have the rules 24 changed? I thought it was two minutes to

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(518) 371-8910 1 explain your vote. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: I was 3 just looking over at the clock, and Senator 4 Craig Johnson is rapidly approaching his two 5 minutes. 6 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 7 President. 8 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: But do I 9 get added time, since Senator Libous cut into 10 it? 11 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 12 President. 13 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I'm done. 14 I'm done. 15 SENATOR LIBOUS: Thank you, Mr. 16 President. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: How do 18 you vote, Senator Johnson? 19 SENATOR CRAIG JOHNSON: I vote 20 yes. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 22 Senator Craig Johnson to be recorded in the 23 affirmative. 24 Senator Liz Krueger, to explain her

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(518) 371-8910 1 vote. 2 SENATOR LIZ KRUEGER: Thank you. 3 Well, I listened interestingly to 4 the debate. And I have to say when the bill 5 passed originally several years ago, I had 6 many concerns. And I still have them today. 7 But I recognize that you can't turn 8 on a dime. This state doesn't turn on a dime. 9 And unfortunately, it was time to either end 10 the bill or extend it, because research had 11 not been done by my colleagues in either house 12 about the impact of this law. 13 So I am prepared to vote for this 14 bill today knowing that we're going to do real 15 research, a real study, and decide whether or 16 not this system is working. I suspect we will 17 find it's not working and we will have an 18 opportunity very quickly to fix the 19 legislation in everyone's best interests. 20 So today I vote yes. Thank you, 21 Mr. President. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 23 Senator Liz Krueger to be recorded in the 24 affirmative.

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Padavan, to explain his 2 vote. 3 SENATOR PADAVAN: Thank you, 4 Mr. President. 5 Since the sponsor keeps referring 6 to people who voted yes or no, I think he 7 should recognize that there are some people, 8 particularly on this side of the aisle, who 9 have the intellectual capacity to learn. 10 (Laughter.) 11 SENATOR PADAVAN: In any event, 12 Mr. President, while we've been studying this 13 issue now for years and are projecting a 14 further continuation of that, New Jersey is 15 acting. They have introduced legislation and 16 are voting, if my radio report that I heard 17 this morning as I drove up here is accurate, 18 on a solution to the problem. 19 And I'm surprised that you didn't 20 know the situation that Senator Winner spoke 21 to with the Springsteen concert and where one 22 outfit, Ticketmaster, owns another outfit, 23 gave them a bulk of tickets, and they sold 24 them for the sky's the limit. That happened.

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(518) 371-8910 1 And New Jersey is addressing the 2 issue. And apparently they don't have to take 3 year after year to study it. I vote no. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 5 Senator Padavan to be recorded in the 6 negative. 7 Senator Volker, to explain his 8 vote. 9 SENATOR VOLKER: Mr. President, 10 I've been listening to the debate here today, 11 and I listened to the debate on a number of 12 occasions when Senator Skelos had the bill and 13 so forth. 14 But the key to me is, and the 15 reason I'm supporting it is, is that NYPIRG is 16 opposed to it. So I vote aye. 17 (Laughter.) 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 19 Senator Volker to be recorded in the 20 affirmative. 21 Announce the results. 22 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 23 the negative on Calendar Number 265 are 24 Senators Flanagan, LaValle, Marcellino,

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(518) 371-8910 1 Maziarz, Padavan, and Robach. Also Senator 2 Saland. 3 Ayes, 52. Nays, 7. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 5 bill is passed. 6 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 7 318, by Senator Stachowski, Senate Print 4100, 8 an act to amend the Tax Law. 9 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 11 Senator Stachowski, an explanation has been 12 requested by Senator Libous. 13 SENATOR STACHOWSKI: Yes. This 14 bill gives Erie County another year of 15 extending their additional .75 percent county 16 sales tax for an additional two years. 17 It's at the request of the county 18 executive, who I believe is from their party, 19 and the smartest guy in New York State, and it 20 also is forwarded to us by the county 21 legislature. 22 It's got a home rule with it. It's 23 something that localities still feel are 24 necessary to make their budget work, and so

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(518) 371-8910 1 that's why we have the bill. 2 SENATOR LIBOUS: Read the last 3 section. 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 5 Secretary will ring the bells. 6 There is a home-rule message at the 7 desk. 8 Read the last section. 9 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 10 act shall take effect immediately. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 12 the roll. 13 (The Secretary called the roll.) 14 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. Nays, 15 0. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 17 bill is passed. 18 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 19 323, by Senator Valesky, Senate Print 5120, an 20 act to amend the Tax Law. 21 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation, 22 please. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 24 An explanation has been requested, Senator

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(518) 371-8910 1 Valesky. 2 SENATOR VALESKY: Yes, Madam 3 President. This piece of legislation, which 4 has been requested by the Madison County board 5 of supervisors, would extend for a period of 6 two years their ability to collect the 7 additional 1 percent in sales and compensating 8 use tax, would extend the authority for 9 Madison County to do that through November 30, 10 2011. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 12 There is a home-rule message at the desk. 13 Are there any Senators that wish to 14 be heard on the bill? 15 The Secretary will ring the bell. 16 Read the last section. 17 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 18 act shall take effect immediately. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 20 Call the roll. 21 (The Secretary called the roll.) 22 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 23 Announce the results. 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. Nays,

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(518) 371-8910 1 0. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 3 The bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 328, by Senator Sampson, Senate Print 2849, an 6 act to amend the Judiciary Law. 7 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation, 8 please. 9 ACTING PRESIDENT STEWART-COUSINS: 10 Senator Sampson, an explanation has been 11 requested. 12 SENATOR SAMPSON: Yes, Madam 13 President. This bill updates and modernizes 14 the emergency procedures for the relocation of 15 state court. 16 It redresses the foregoing concerns 17 by providing for, one, updated disaster plans 18 adapted to modern threats by allowing 19 relocation beyond districts. Second, it 20 insulates localities against unfair faculty 21 costs arising from these emergency situations. 22 And, third, it basically streamlines the 23 authority under what circumstances who is 24 responsible for relocating these courts.

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR LIBOUS: Read the last 2 section. 3 SENATOR ROBACH: Good 4 explanation. 5 SENATOR SAMPSON: Thank you very 6 much, Senator Robach. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 8 Secretary will ring the bells. 9 Read the last section. 10 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 11 act shall take effect immediately. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 13 the roll. 14 (The Secretary called the roll.) 15 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. Nays, 16 0. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 18 bill is passed. 19 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 20 331, by Senator Addabbo, Senate Print 4766, an 21 act to amend the Real Property Tax Law. 22 SENATOR LIBOUS: Read the last 23 section. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The

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(518) 371-8910 1 Secretary will ring the bells. 2 Read the last section. 3 THE SECRETARY: Section 4. This 4 act shall take effect January 2, 2010. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 6 the roll. 7 (The Secretary called the roll.) 8 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. Nays, 9 0. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 11 bill is passed. 12 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 13 335, by Member of the Assembly Jeffries, 14 Assembly Print Number 4904, an act to amend 15 the Public Service Law. 16 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation, 17 please. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 19 Senator Parker, an explanation has been 20 requested by Senator Libous. 21 SENATOR PARKER: Through you, 22 Mr. President. This is essentially a cleanup 23 bill. 24 And essentially what it does is

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(518) 371-8910 1 that it takes into account new types of 2 corporations that are providing energy and 3 telecommunications products and really just 4 ensuring that the PSC has an ability to 5 regulate their stock conversions. 6 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Are 7 there any Senators who wish to be heard? 8 Seeing none, the debate is closed. 9 The Secretary will ring the bells. 10 Read the last section. 11 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 12 act shall take effect immediately. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 14 the roll. 15 (The Secretary called the roll.) 16 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. Nays, 17 0. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 19 bill is passed. 20 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 21 348, by Member of the Assembly Ortiz, Assembly 22 Print Number 6532B, an act to amend the 23 Executive Law. 24 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation,

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(518) 371-8910 1 please. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 3 Senator Hassell-Thompson, an explanation has 4 been requested by Senator Libous. 5 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank 6 you, Mr. President. Basically, this is -- 7 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 8 Senator Libous, why do you rise? 9 SENATOR LIBOUS: I'm sorry, I 10 thought we were on the Breslin bill. No 11 explanation needed. 12 Call the roll. 13 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank 14 you. Thank you, Senator Libous. I appreciate 15 that so much. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 17 Secretary will ring the bells. 18 Read the last section. 19 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 20 act shall take effect immediately. 21 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 22 the roll. 23 (The Secretary called the roll.) 24 THE SECRETARY: Ayes, 59. Nays,

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(518) 371-8910 1 0. 2 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 3 bill is passed. 4 THE SECRETARY: Calendar Number 5 353, by Member of the Assembly Cusick, 6 Assembly Print Number 2369, an act to amend 7 the General -- 8 SENATOR LIBOUS: Explanation, 9 please. 10 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 11 Senator Breslin, an explanation has been 12 requested by Senator Libous. 13 SENATOR BRESLIN: Thank you, 14 Mr. President. 15 This bill amends the General 16 Obligations Law by voiding construction 17 clauses that condition a subcontractor or 18 supplier's right to file a claim and commence 19 an action for payment bond. 20 This law would prohibit 21 construction clauses that require the 22 exhaustion of another legal remedy before 23 filing a lawsuit. 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY:

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Saland. 2 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 3 Mr. President. Mr. President, would Senator 4 Breslin yield to a question? 5 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 6 Senator Breslin, do you yield? 7 SENATOR BRESLIN: I certainly do. 8 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 9 sponsor yields. 10 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 11 Senator. Excuse me while I try and locate on 12 this messy desk my copy of the bill. 13 As I do that, Senator Breslin, 14 perhaps you can tell me, under this proposed 15 change in the law, would the burden of 16 whatever loss might have been experienced, 17 been experienced by a subcontractor in the 18 situation you describe, be borne now by an 19 owner or a contractor? 20 SENATOR BRESLIN: Senator Saland, 21 really what it is, as you know, through you, 22 Mr. President, a subcontractor sits there. If 23 he has to use the lien that he's filed, that 24 lien goes towards the owner. But as you know,

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Saland, the obligation is from a 2 contractor to the subcontractor, their 3 contract. 4 And this legislation would allow 5 the subcontractor, and particularly in these 6 difficult economic times, to be able to 7 commence a lawsuit directly, directly against 8 the general contractor and not have to, first 9 of all, by the contract that he's signed, 10 enforce himself through the lien. 11 SENATOR SALAND: If the Senator 12 will continue to yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 14 Senator Breslin, do you continue to yield? 15 SENATOR BRESLIN: Certainly. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 17 sponsor continues. 18 SENATOR SALAND: Assume for the 19 moment that the owner of whatever the property 20 that the project is being constructed on has 21 run out of money. The contractor has not been 22 paid, the subcontractor has not been paid. 23 Who, under your construct now, gets to bear 24 the burden of this lack of payment?

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(518) 371-8910 1 SENATOR BRESLIN: Well, under 2 basic contract law, the subcontractor and the 3 contractor contracted with each other, so the 4 obligation flows from the contractor to the 5 subcontractor. That doesn't preclude -- even 6 though it would be fruitless if there were no 7 money -- it wouldn't preclude the general 8 contractor from actioning in a third-party 9 action, actioning over against the owner of 10 the land. 11 SENATOR SALAND: If the Senator 12 would continue to yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 14 Senator Breslin, do you continue? 15 SENATOR BRESLIN: Certainly. 16 SENATOR SALAND: But if the 17 third-party owner has no assets or his assets 18 have been depleted -- 19 SENATOR BRESLIN: Well, he has 20 the land itself. 21 But that doesn't, in my opinion, it 22 doesn't reduce under this legislation the 23 obligation that a contractor has to a 24 subcontractor who enters into the contract

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(518) 371-8910 1 between the two of them, and he understands 2 that obligation. And the contractor should 3 know whether there's sufficient monies to pay 4 a subcontractor. 5 SENATOR SALAND: I would merely 6 suggest in this economy I'm sure there are 7 many contractors, and perhaps subcontractors 8 as well, who didn't anticipate the inability 9 of an owner to be able to abide by their 10 obligation. 11 SENATOR BRESLIN: And perhaps -- 12 through you, Mr. President -- perhaps that 13 will make a subcontractor more sensitive to 14 who the owner is and entering into the 15 subcontract with the subcontractor. 16 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Breslin, 17 under our Lien Law, is a lien renewable? 18 SENATOR BRESLIN: Sure. 19 Absolutely. But it's a refiling process. It 20 isn't in this bill. Through you, 21 Mr. President. I believe it's just a refiling 22 process. 23 And I know there's been some 24 amendments as to the length of time you can --

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(518) 371-8910 1 or the number of times you can refile. But I 2 know you can refile. 3 SENATOR SALAND: Interestingly, I 4 posed that question to one of our colleagues. 5 It's been a long time since I've seen one of 6 these cases -- 7 SENATOR BRESLIN: And that's why 8 I'm suggesting I believe it's that way, 9 Senator. 10 SENATOR SALAND: And I recall it 11 being renewable, but I didn't recall how many 12 times it could be renewed. I thought perhaps 13 you might know. 14 One last question, if I might, 15 Senator Breslin. 16 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 17 Senator Breslin, do you continue to yield? 18 SENATOR BRESLIN: I continue to 19 yield, Mr. President, certainly. 20 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 21 sponsor yields. 22 SENATOR SALAND: Senator Breslin, 23 I would merely like to come back to the 24 situation which I described before. And I

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(518) 371-8910 1 think in your memo you refer to a Court of 2 Appeals case -- 3 SENATOR BRESLIN: Yeah, the Court 4 of Appeals case I believe is West-Fair 5 Electric versus Aetna Casualty. And in that 6 case, the court ruled that the general 7 contractor's liability to pay a subcontractor 8 is not contingent upon the general contractor 9 receiving money from the owner, that it's 10 their contractual obligation. 11 SENATOR SALAND: Correct. And I 12 had the opportunity to read the case, and 13 really with the fact that it was a case that 14 was sent by the federal Court of Appeals to 15 our Court of Appeals. 16 But I come back to somebody in this 17 scenario has to bear the burden of a loss. 18 And if the owner's assets are depleted, what 19 we're doing here I believe is saying that the 20 contractor shall be the party that will bear 21 that loss. 22 SENATOR BRESLIN: I think that's 23 correct. And I think the Court of Appeals 24 decision pretty much said we're going to go

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(518) 371-8910 1 back to basic contract law. The subcontractor 2 contracts with the contractor, so we'll look 3 to the four walls of the contract to determine 4 who should pay whom. 5 And the owner, you're right, if 6 there isn't enough money, it appears as though 7 the contractor would be the odd person out. 8 SENATOR SALAND: Thank you, 9 Senator Breslin. Thank you, Mr. President. 10 SENATOR BRESLIN: Thank you. 11 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Thank 12 you, Senator Saland. 13 Any other Senators wish to be heard 14 on the bill? 15 Senator Ranzenhofer. 16 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: If the 17 sponsor will yield. 18 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 19 Senator Breslin, do you yield? 20 SENATOR BRESLIN: Certainly, 21 Mr. President, I'll be glad to. 22 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 23 sponsor yields. 24 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: Does your

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(518) 371-8910 1 bill now protect an owner who will no longer 2 have to pay because the subcontractor will be 3 able to go against the contractor? 4 SENATOR BRESLIN: I really 5 couldn't hear you, Senator. If you could 6 repeat that. 7 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: Will this 8 now let an owner off the hook because the 9 subcontractor will now have to go against the 10 contractor? 11 SENATOR BRESLIN: No. Quite 12 frankly, no. I think that a subcontractor 13 will look to his basic contract. He'll 14 probably make some initial decisions, because 15 there still would be a lien. And they'll all 16 each, the contractor and the subcontractor, 17 practically speaking, will know how much the 18 owner has. 19 What it's saying is that if the 20 owner has nothing, the subcontractor will be 21 allowed to sue the contractor. Now, the 22 contractor also has the right, if there's 23 assets there, to do a third-party action over 24 against the owner. But as Senator Saland

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(518) 371-8910 1 said, if the owner has nothing and there's 2 liens that precede the lien of the 3 subcontractor, that contractor still should be 4 obligated to someone that he hired to do work 5 for him. 6 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: Another 7 question. Does that, then, let the owner off 8 the hook if the subcontractor can more easily 9 go after the person that owns the land? 10 SENATOR BRESLIN: Through you, 11 Mr. President. No. Again, the contractor has 12 the right, if he is sued by the subcontractor, 13 to action over against the owner for whatever 14 assets may be available. 15 Now, if there are no assets left, 16 then it appears as though the owner has no 17 assets, so he's out of luck a little bit 18 because something happened business-wise. And 19 the contractor is not out of luck; he 20 understands the risks when he hires 21 subcontractors and he enters into agreements. 22 And it's really, in many ways -- 23 through you, Mr. President -- it's helping the 24 little guy, the subcontractor, the upstate

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(518) 371-8910 1 businesses, the small businesses that are 2 trying to do a day in, day out job, they're 3 not sophisticated, they're doing a little 4 plumbing job, a little electrical job, a 5 roofing job. And these generally much bigger 6 general contractors are much more 7 sophisticated, much more knowledgeable, and 8 much more likely to put into contracts "you 9 can't sue me, you've got to enforce the lien." 10 And this is suggesting that that 11 little contractor, that subcontractor, will 12 and should be protected. 13 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: Another 14 question, through you, Mr. President. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 16 Senator Breslin, do you continue to yield? 17 SENATOR BRESLIN: I of course 18 continue to yield. 19 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 20 sponsor continues. 21 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: Don't you 22 often have a situation where you have three, 23 four, five, six contractors and subcontractors 24 down the line? So you'll have a general

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(518) 371-8910 1 contractor and then you'll have, say, five 2 subcontractors after that. Aren't we buy by 3 this legislation picking and choosing who the 4 winner should be in terms of which contractor? 5 And the second question is, aren't 6 all contractors really small-to-medium-sized 7 business? I mean, in my neck of the woods a 8 general contractor is not some big 9 conglomerate but is also, you know, maybe an 10 operation that might have a few more people 11 than what you call the little guy. Aren't 12 they both really little people? 13 SENATOR BRESLIN: Again, through 14 you, Mr. President, I might have 15 overemphasized big versus little. And there 16 might well be situations where the general 17 contractor isn't that much bigger than a sub. 18 But it would still be, under basic 19 contract law -- again, through you, 20 Mr. President -- that the subcontractor and a 21 contractor, the subcontractor says, I will 22 perform certain services for you, Mr. General 23 Contractor, if you pay me for those services. 24 And to me it's as simple as that. And it's a

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(518) 371-8910 1 recognition by the Court of Appeals that it is 2 basic contract law and it shouldn't be 3 abrogated or changed by the ability to put 4 something in a contract. 5 That that basic law should survive, 6 and the general contractor should be 7 obligated, if the work is performed -- 8 remember, the work has to be performed under 9 the contract in a satisfactory and timely way. 10 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: So is this 11 legislation really, instead of putting the 12 subcontractor out of business, you're really 13 putting the subcontractor who's one above out 14 of business when you run into that situation 15 when there aren't funds paid by the owner? 16 SENATOR BRESLIN: Through you, 17 Mr. President. That may in fact -- it may be 18 a Hobson's choice. There may be no winners. 19 And really what it's doing is 20 placing a preference for a subcontractor who 21 performed his portion of the contract. The 22 general contractor is the one who didn't. He 23 didn't pay. And so this law would cure that. 24 SENATOR RANZENHOFER: Thank you.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Thank 2 you, Senator Ranzenhofer. 3 Are there any other Senators who 4 wish to be heard? 5 Senator Winner. 6 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you. 7 Would Senator Breslin yield for a few 8 questions? 9 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 10 Senator Breslin, do you yield? 11 SENATOR BRESLIN: I'd be 12 delighted to yield. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 14 sponsor yields. 15 SENATOR WINNER: Thank you, 16 Senator. 17 Through you, Mr. President, 18 Senator, the basic system under the Lien Law, 19 as I understand it, is that the owner is 20 supposed to pay the general and the general is 21 supposed to pay the sub, and the money flows 22 down the hill. And when the sub gets involved 23 in the contract with the general, he or she 24 does so with the full knowledge that the money

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(518) 371-8910 1 is coming from the owner. 2 And that's the traditional way that 3 the Lien Law has worked, such that if the 4 owner pays the general and the general doesn't 5 pay the sub, then the remedy has always been 6 for the sub then to sue the general. 7 SENATOR BRESLIN: But not now -- 8 not without this law. 9 SENATOR WINNER: Well, no, the 10 sub can now sue the general if the general has 11 been paid and he hasn't been paid, but he 12 can't lien the job. Isn't that -- 13 SENATOR BRESLIN: Well, I think 14 the contracts that they operate under are 15 saying that they must exercise the enforcement 16 of the lien first. And I'm suggesting that 17 shouldn't be the way it happens. 18 SENATOR WINNER: But you can't 19 exercise your lien rights if you're a 20 subcontractor if the general has been paid. 21 SENATOR BRESLIN: Well, that 22 would be something that would be argued. If 23 there's knowledge that he's been paid and 24 there's contract language that says you're

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(518) 371-8910 1 precluded from suing a general contractor, you 2 don't want to be placed in that situation. 3 You want to be able to sue the contractor, 4 whether he's been paid or not. 5 SENATOR WINNER: But the whole 6 system that you're in, the fact of the matter 7 is that you're supposed to get the money from 8 the owner and that's why you bid the job. You 9 got involved in the bid with the general 10 knowing full well that the money comes from 11 the owner, it doesn't come from the general. 12 SENATOR BRESLIN: Generally the 13 bid goes -- through you, Mr. President. The 14 bid is by the general contractor. He awarded 15 the contract, he chooses the subcontractors. 16 Who does the subcontractor contract with? He 17 doesn't contract with the owner, he contracts 18 with the general contractor. 19 SENATOR WINNER: But every -- 20 SENATOR BRESLIN: So you're 21 bypassing language that would preclude him 22 from going directly against the general 23 contractor. 24 If you disagree with that, that's

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(518) 371-8910 1 fine. But it's pretty simple, the bill, I 2 thought. 3 SENATOR WINNER: Well, it's not 4 simple from the standpoint if you're the 5 general and you don't get paid by the owner. 6 Then, right now, the sub has the option to 7 lien the job. The sub can lien the job and 8 get paid through its own lien foreclosure 9 proceeding against the owner and protect 10 themselves, assuming that the value that they 11 put into the project, which has priority -- 12 SENATOR BRESLIN: And from a 13 business perspective -- through you, 14 Mr. President. From a business perspective, 15 it would be obvious that maybe a subcontractor 16 in that situation would say that his 17 enforcement on the lien would be futile. And 18 if it was futile, then he should be allowed 19 and not, by contract, precluded from going 20 directly against the contractor. 21 SENATOR WINNER: Well, isn't -- 22 through you, Mr. President, thank you for the 23 liberty that -- 24 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: You're

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(518) 371-8910 1 quite welcome, Senator Winner. 2 SENATOR WINNER: The Lien Law is 3 a rather perilous path to undertake to 4 understand in the first place. But suffice it 5 to say that Senator Breslin is quite 6 knowledgeable on it, so I appreciate the 7 latitude of being able to ask him the 8 question. 9 In the event that you have a lien 10 foreclosure proceeding brought by the general 11 against the owner because they didn't get 12 paid, under those circumstances would it be 13 still permissible for the sub to sue the 14 general while that lien foreclosure action is 15 pending? 16 SENATOR BRESLIN: No, I think 17 it -- and that's a little off the bill, 18 through you, Mr. President. I think that 19 would be kind of a choice of remedies. And if 20 you choose one remedy versus another, you 21 stick with the one remedy you've chosen. 22 The reason that you go after the 23 contractor is I assume because you think there 24 isn't sufficient there. And as you

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(518) 371-8910 1 suggested -- and you seem extremely 2 knowledgeable in the area -- that as you 3 suggested, the enforcement of a lien is not a 4 pretty picture. They're painfully long. 5 They're arcane. 6 And for a subcontractor, a small 7 subcontractor who's got to hire a lawyer, 8 filing a lawsuit against the general 9 contractor generally is a much easier process. 10 SENATOR WINNER: Mr. President, 11 on the bill. 12 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 13 Senator Winner, on the bill. 14 SENATOR WINNER: The basic 15 problem with Senator Breslin's bill is that 16 it's not necessarily fair to the general 17 contractor who did not get paid by the owner 18 to then get sued by the sub before that 19 general contractor has the opportunity to try 20 to recover the money that is due him or her 21 from the owner, who's the real source of where 22 the default is. 23 There are remedies currently in the 24 law whereby the sub does have the ability to

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(518) 371-8910 1 recover against the owner in the event that 2 the general has not been paid and therefore is 3 holding money, that is responsible and really 4 is paying the value of that sub's contribution 5 to the owner's property. 6 This upsets that element of 7 fairness and allows that sub now to go after 8 the general who didn't get paid and is 9 basically out of luck himself, without 10 exercising their duty to try to recover from 11 the true individual at fault, and that is the 12 owner. 13 And that is why I am opposed to 14 this legislation. 15 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Thank 16 you, Senator Winner. 17 Are there any other Senators who 18 wish to be heard? 19 Hearing none, the debate is closed. 20 The Secretary will ring the bells. 21 The Secretary will read the last 22 section. 23 THE SECRETARY: Section 2. This 24 act shall take effect immediately.

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(518) 371-8910 1 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: Call 2 the roll. 3 (The Secretary called the roll.) 4 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 5 Senator DeFrancisco, to explain his vote. 6 SENATOR DeFRANCISCO: I think 7 this is a good bill. 8 And there was a lot of discussion 9 about fairness in the process. If it be 10 remembered, the contractor is the one who 11 contracted with the owner and should bear the 12 risk if the owner doesn't pay. 13 The subcontractor contracted with 14 the contractor to do some work. And if he did 15 the work, I think under the contract alone he 16 should be permitted to go against the general 17 contractor who took the risk by picking the 18 owner that he decided to work for. 19 And I don't think you should have 20 to go for one remedy first, the longest 21 possible remedy as a subcontractor -- namely, 22 going through a lien process to get your 23 rights again the person you contracted with, 24 namely, the general contractor.

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(518) 371-8910 1 So I think this is a good bill. 2 And besides, under the bill, I believe it can 3 go against the bond that was posted to make 4 sure that people who worked got paid. So I 5 think it's a good bill, and I'm going to vote 6 yes. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 8 Senator DeFrancisco to be recorded in the 9 affirmative. 10 Senator Hassell-Thompson, to 11 explain her vote. 12 SENATOR HASSELL-THOMPSON: Thank 13 you, Mr. President. 14 Senator DeFrancisco explained it 15 really very, very well. I too support this 16 bill, as someone who worked as the executive 17 director of the Westchester Minority 18 Contractors Association for a very long time, 19 and know that most subcontractors do not get 20 relief. 21 And I appreciate this bill on 22 behalf of those contractors who very clearly 23 contract with the contractor, not with the 24 owner. Therefore, some relief must be awarded

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(518) 371-8910 1 to them if they do their work, provide the 2 materials. 3 And I want to thank Senator Breslin 4 for putting this bill forward. And I know 5 that small businesses and subcontractors will 6 thank you as well. 7 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 8 Senator Hassell-Thompson to be recorded in the 9 affirmative. 10 Announce the results. 11 THE SECRETARY: Those recorded in 12 the negative on Calendar Number 353 are 13 Senators Golden, Libous, Little, Morahan, 14 Maziarz, Nozzolio, Ranzenhofer, Saland and 15 Young. Also Senator Winner. 16 Ayes, 49. Nays, 10. 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 18 bill is passed. 19 Senator Klein, that completes the 20 reading of the active bills on Senate Calendar 21 Number 52. 22 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. President, I 23 have two motions. 24 First, Mr. President, on behalf of

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(518) 371-8910 1 Senator Espada, on page 32 I offer the 2 following amendments to Calendar Number 375, 3 Senate Print 3458, and ask that said bill 4 retain its place on Third Reading Calendar. 5 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: 6 Amendments received. 7 SENATOR KLEIN: The second, 8 Mr. President, on behalf of Senator Huntley, 9 on page 31 I offer the following amendments to 10 Calendar Number 367, Senate Print 3653A, and 11 ask that said bill retain its place on Third 12 Reading Calendar. 13 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: The 14 amendments are received. 15 SENATOR KLEIN: Mr. President, is 16 there any further business at the desk? 17 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: There 18 is no further business at the desk, Senator 19 Klein. 20 SENATOR KLEIN: There being none, 21 I move we adjourn until tomorrow, Tuesday, 22 June 2nd, at 3:00 p.m. 23 ACTING PRESIDENT VALESKY: On 24 motion, the Senate stands adjourned until

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(518) 371-8910 1 Tuesday, June 2nd, at 3:00 p.m. 2 (Whereupon, at 5:25 p.m., the 3 Senate adjourned.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

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